How Long did it take to get your first job and whats your experience?

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi...

I've noticed that lots of questions are asked as to how long it took to get that elusive first job and what the level of experience/hours they had...

so can everyone who wants to post their details so us wannabees can get a better idea of the state of play?

eg

LoonyPilot, CAP509 grad, 280 hours, unemployed 18 months,

[piperindian]

JAR ATPL 500h, 100 multi not one interview since i finished 9 months ago
i sent hundreds of cvs to british and european companies.
Its time to educate wannabes on this issue
If i had knewn beforehand that the job market was so cra.p i would have never ventured into this. Problem is that i have been convinced by instructors and some chief pilots of cargo operations among others. Those guys dont hire at the moment.

[niceguy11]

piperindian you are clearly wrong here! There are jobs around if you are willing to (a) accept anything (b) willing to relocate. I think your problem is that you expect to walk in to that elusive 737 job straight after completing your JAA ATPL.

Many chief pilots/ instructors only know to well what the job sitution is. Although saying this I believe in Europe you do stand a stronger chance of getting that first break.

Perhaps piperindian if you gained your own type rating may help and a few more hours under your belt before sending those CVs off again. This would show the airlines that you are 100% committed to aviation!

[ethan]

The Question is: Are you following up your CV's with a phone call?????

If Your Answer is Yes: Good, keep it up call every 2 weeks and remind them of your name. Its does not annoy them but shows them how keen and interested you are. You would be surprised the amount of people who just send CV's, don't call and expect the world to start calling them instead.

If Your Answer is No: Good, keep it up as well, because you are giving everyone else an opportunity to find your job. What a waste of all your training money. Stupid!!

[go]

I have 910 hours 30 multi perf a ,mcc,atpl/ir
and just got my first job....in fact its a dream job...flying tiger moths..

Id love an airline job and i hope the fact that now that im employed will look good my cv,,,its strange but I hear all the time about the shortage of airline jobs but where are they? I would except anything but I know the job wont come to me...I am also 37 so age is not on my side...I would take anything but at the end of the day,,,I m init for the flying,,,tiger moths...fantastic..

[Jetheat]

I've posted this before but if you really wanna know, here it is again.

I have completed an ATPL in the US as well as in the UK.

This is how it started.

I saved up £14,000 in the UK by slogging my ar$e off doing 12 hour shifts continuously for two years. Sold off everything. Got the 14k and said to my mum "See u in three years time". Off to sunny Florida I went.

As I was dedicated to learning how to fly, I spent all my time studying and flying. I became an Instructor within 8 months and by that time I had about $1000 left in my account. The 14k went towards flying and living. The best thing about flying in the States was that my 14k went a long way.
As soon as I had my Instructors licence, I started to instruct and make money. As we all know, an Instructors pay is never enough; I went to the local supermarket and got a job as a Camera Development person. This allowed me to pay for the rent whilst I built up my hours towards gaining an FAA ATPL.

As soon as I got the FAA ATPL, I returned to London, England after 3 long years. (Boy, I was glad to be back).

Now I had no money and yet I had to find a way to convert my FAA licence to a CAA one. How on earth are u meant to do that without borrowing money.
This is where luck came in: I found a job paying roughly £200-£300 per day.
So I worked on the weekends and on weekdays whenever I could whilst I started my ATPL Ground Studies at the London Guildhall University.
Of course, the studies were 5 times harder than what I had learnt in the States. The English CAA (now JAA) exams are very stringent. It wasn't just a case of memorising the book and then giving your test the next day with a 99% pass (as in the States).
In the UK, it was pure hardcore studying. U have to know your material. This is what diffrentiates the men from the boys, The amount and type of knowledge u possess!

However, after about 7-8 months, I had all the ground work out of the way and now it was onto the flying.
The scariest thought about flying in England is the cost. Especially if you fail and have to redo the whole exam again with more Instruction. The Seneca hire is approximately £4 a minute - About £300-£400 per flight. What happens when u are so near the exam and your money runs out? This was the predicament. Luckily, I passed before the money ran out (Thank God). I don't know what I would have done otherwise.
Well, after passing all the Ground and Flight exams, I was absolutely elated. I was now ready to tell all the airlines that I possesed a CAA and an FAA ATPL giving me the best of both worlds. How wrong was I?

I found out the hard way. Nobody cares if you have an FAA ATPL. They hardly care if you have a CAA one either. I believe its more about the type of time you have.

After I passed, I sent a perfect CV to virtually every single airline in the UK. Hell, I even bought a great presenter and sent the CV in that, incurring more expense.

Sadly, letter after letter, rejection after rejection, I didn't get anywhere.
I kept asking myself, I have 1550 hours, whats wrong with these people? Are they blind? Even people with less hours are being called up.
Eventually I got a break and I was called for an Interview with Aer Lingus.
Unfortunately, do to my actions or attitude at the interview, I was refused the job.
So I promised myself from that point onwards that, if ever I had another interview, I would conduct myself with the highest integrity and that I would ace the Interview.
I kept waiting and waiting. Nothing at all. Nothing.
After waiting for another 13 months, (13 MONTHS), I got called to City Flyer.
I aced the Interview but they said that I could only proceed to the Sim stage if I went and renewed my IR. This was another huge expense I had to go through. However, since flying is what it's all about, I went and renewed my IR for a cost of £1200. (Exam alone was £800). Went I went for the Sim Check, I could tell, the Sim Examiner's behaviour, was not favourable to a young first timer. On top of that, I made a mistake in the sim by turning the wrong way which of course, led to my failure.
Not giving up, I continued my search and lo behold, after 2 months, another interview with KLM uk.
This time I decided not to tell anyone about my Interview until I had a result from the airline.

I passed the Interview and I passed the Sim Check 2 weeks later.

At that time, I was the happiest person in the world. All your training and efforts flash before your very eyes. 3 years in America, 1 year in UK training/conversion and then 20 months of hard frustration and waiting. This was the moment I had been waiting for, for so long. 4 years of hard work had just paid off! Imagine how you would feel. So now, I've just completed my first Type Rating with KLM uk and I am now awaiting Line Training. I can't thank KLM uk enough for giving me this opportunity and I definately wont let them down coz this is what I've been wanting to do all along. And now that I have it, I wont let go!

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Always make sure that your number of take-offs equals the number of landings!
_ _________________ _

You know you've landed with the wheels up if it takes full power to
taxi to the ramp

[Girt_bar]

piperindian

I question your motivation.

[rock_the_tower]

CPL/IR and frozen Swiss ATPL, 230 hrs total including 50 hrs multi on a Seneca (took me three years paralell to my job). No sponsors. No debts. Hired as "greenhorn" F/O with Crossair on the EMB-145. Oh, and by the way I am 36. What you need ? A big piece of luck !!!

All the best for you !

rtt

[Tarmach]

rock the tower,

How can luck play a part when airlines are after pilots with 2500hrs and you turn up with only 250hrs? Surely you are a non-starter, just like sending off for a job that requires 4 a-levels and you only have 2 alevels!

[rock_the_tower]

Well Tarmach

Obviously it's not only the hours which are important but also your personal profile. If you've 2500 hrs and 4 a levels but do not fit their profile you're having some problems of course....

rtt D :) :)

[Tarmach]

ehhheh

So whats your profile, rock the tower? Where did you train etc. From the sounds of it you went down the modular route?!!

[rock_the_tower]

Tarmach

To be honest, I have no clue about my profile but somehow Crossair thought I would fit their team (that's where the luck starts to play, I think !).
Yep, I went the modular route with parts at HORIZON. Most of the practical flying I did at a local flying school at LSZH. The modular helped me to get the bucks first in my pocket before spending them :)
What about you ?

Cheers

rtt :)

[Tarmach]

rock the tower,

Send me your email address!

Tarmach.

[email protected]

[piperindian]

I am calling the companies every month.
always the same answer : we dont hire. In fact a few guys get hired but not through a regular selection process.
As to accept any job, i did not pass a JAR ATPL to fly cessnas in the African bush, you can do that with a FAA CPL. They dont give a damn about you JAR stuff. Also, bush pilots are not well viewed by many airlines.

As to pay for a type rating, what next ? Maybe we should pay airlines to fly their airplanes also ! Its also totally useless without time on type. Another scam.

As for motivation, i worked full-time during all my ATPL training excepted to finish the multi IR. Believe me its a lot of effort.

I know many guys in the same situation as me.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Despite the harsh replies to Piperindian, he or she does have a point. There is a shortage of experienced airline pilots, but a super abundance of newly qualified pilots. We read on this forum every week - if not everyday - how pilots wait years before their first job. Schools and those with jobs are quick to encourage by insisting that jobs exist and we'll all get one!

Luck plays a major part in securing any job, especially the first one. Not all CVs are read, if an airine isn't recruiting they may bin any unsolicited CVs rather keep relevant ones.

Flying experience isn't always the issue. I've said this before on this forum, a qualification is common to all of us. It's our backgrounds and personal profiles that make the difference. Being a pilot is just like any other profession; a certain level of education and experience extra to aviation is essential. You wouldn't expect your doctor or lawyer to have previously stacked shelves at Tesco! Simply being interested in medicine or law hasn't secured those people a career. It's controversial and prejudiced, but it's also a fact that needs facing.

So don't think that having a bit of paper will land you a job simply because it says CPL/IR.

Luck plays a big part
Experience plays a small part
background makes the difference.

For the record

Frz ATPL 900 hours currently instructing and waiting for the first interview since march.

[EggBeta]

A question, perhaps a little cynical...
If you have family & friends, captains and above with the same airline and you are a wannabe with frozen JAR ATPL, you stand a much better chance than a straight wannabe with more hours of getting into that particular airline!
Is it about who you know?

[nobody]

I think it has a lot to do with luck, but also emphasise any other work experience that will make you a better prospective employee to a company. Also play on what you gave up to do your training.
Apart from that keep trying all the regional t/prop operators.
I was 34 with 200 hrs so don`t give up.

[Loony_Pilot]

Thanks for the responses so far.. keep em coming!

The follow up the CV with a phone call.. well I have tried that many times and in my personal experience the person on the other end of the phone is extremely disinterested and seem to treat it as nothing short of a time wasting call...

"we have your CV so we'll let you know if you're required for interview" in a fairly gruff tone of voice...

Oh well I start parachute flying next week
:-)

Also all I can say is that it seems to be who you know and nothing to do with what you know.....

I guess I have suffered from a serious drop in motivation in the last 4 months but have managed to pull myself together, especially after going flying again in a friends Arrow!!

Best of luck to everyone out there who's in the same boat as me..

LP

[Crab Fat]

The way it is:

1. Send out the CV - get a PFO.

2. Call the HR department get told to PFO.

3. Repeat until you feel like giving up.

4. Get a job offer paying £18,000 flying all night.

This is the business where young keen potential employees are treated like something you step in on the pavement.

Yes, it is all about luck. There are some right lucky b*stards. The rest of us have to struggle to live on pennies, build our time and keep plugging away.

If you are thinking about getting into this game think long and hard. The schools will tell you what they have to to get your dosh. There are thousands of good pilots infront of you in the line to that first job. There are many who have given up.

As for me:

CPL/IR (509)
1000 hours
200 hours multi
30 years old
Ex Royal Air Force Regiment Officer

I've been applying for 2 years!! Some day.

[Ennie]

CAP 509 student, 200 Hours, 31 Multi, Finished Feb, Job Offer April, Start Aug, Turboprop. PERSISTENCE!!!!

[Loony_Pilot]

Just to Follow up piperindians response

Yes I also think its time for a healthy dose of realism regarding wannabees and first jobs etc.

I appreciate that some folks get lucky and walk into a job, but for every one of those there must be many many more that dont.

I also get a bit annoyed sometimes when every complaint about someones situation is questioned as a lack of motivtation etc.

When I graduated OATS in Jan 2000.. they told me the job market was excellent and that they'd be surprised if I didnt have a job by May (2000).. well now its July 2001 and I'm no further down the line than I was when I graduated.
So at least you can see why I personally am very dubious of any flight schools advice.

I can think of lots of pieces of advice that I've been given that have turned out to be very wrong.. and any others that have been contradicted many times...

If I knew then what I know now, I still would have started flying.. but would have done things an awful lot differently

LoonyPilot

[Ennie]

Are you, or have you considered an instructors rating to build hours?? I was given advice from a chap at Jmc to do this if I had no luck as they require only 700 hrs, 150 multi for 757 interview.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

On gaing instructor rating with a few hundred hours TT, just a few weeks to get an instructoinal. Obnce the IR's MCC's and perf A's all sorted, 7 months until an interview, then 2 months to start as turbo F/O.

As well as persevering with the letters and phone calls, it's being available that helped me. All the HR and personnel depts. will tell you that they have 3000 CV's on file. However they're all the same CV's and each weeks those CV's go out of date as people get jobs.

When the CP asks for 10 people to start next week, the secretsries start phonoing, they go through an awful lot of applicants before they get someone who is a) still on the job market, and b) at the end of the phone.

[batty]

It is luck and persiverance (sp!) in that order. If you dont have one you have to have the other.
Cap 509 Graduated Feb 2001,190hrs, Job B-737 March 2001, been flying a month now and its great.
Still only have 300 hrs so as I said you have to have one or the other!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

I also thinks it's important to remain current. If you finished a CAP509 course several months ago and haven't flown since then I believe this will count against you.

Doing an instructors rating and working part time or full time will put you in a much stronger position.

[Girt_bar]

You guys think you have got it bad.

Down here in NZ you need at least 1500-2000TT to even be considered for the regionals.

And you can forget a jet job until you have at least 5000TT with about 2-3000 turbine with command time. Most S/O's on the 763 and 744 are there for 7-8 years before being given a RH seat.

You guys need to thank your lucky stars a little more and stop whining. You have got it easy

[Crab Fat]

Batty

How did you get an interview at Ryan? I've been writing, on line applying and ringing for months, do you know someone?

It seems odd that someone with your profile can make so much luck.

[Tarmach]

Loony_Pilot,

Forgive me for asking but how would you do things differently??


Tarmach.

[batty]

Crab Fat
Being an ex crab myself, I didnt have time to mess about when I left so I went and did a Cap 509 at Oxford. Oxford could be seen as RAF Oxford!
When I finished at Oxford it was just as Ryanair contacted them asking for good students, I was one of the 6 put forward.
As I said luck!!!

[Loony_Pilot]

Tarmach,

the two main things I would have done differently

1: I would have got a PPL before commencing a CAP509 Course

2: Would have gotten an instructors rating immediately after finishing at OATS

LP

[NORDIC]

Waited 19 months from finishing my 509 course.

Returned to my previous job as Aircraft Despatcher, and did the FI rating part time around work whenever I could fit the course in with a very good and understanding instructor!

Moved to a different handling agent to gain experience of other airlines, operations, load control and make additional contacts, whilst starting to instruct on an ad-hoc/part time basis.

No joy with a flightdeck position by 13 months after finishing so joined a charter airline as Cabin Crew to see what goes on in the back. Still bits of instructing here and there when I was needed due good roster and the time to fit it in.

First job offer 19 months after completing training, (9 months after completing FI rating - it took about 4 months part time to do the FI rating).

250 Hours TT.

B757 job which I had always wanted as a result.

I can not thank everyone enough who I have worked with both on the ground and in the air over the past four years for their support.

Must say though.....I have loved every minute of each job that I have done....and have certainly learned alot, which I know can only benefit me.

Cheers,

NORDIC :)

[Blackshirt]

Loony_Pilot, PPL - why?

[Tarmach]

NORDIC,

What age were you when you started your Cap509 course? I take it you live in the UK?

[Loony_Pilot]

Blackshirt,

I wpuld have gotten the PPL because having some flying experience stands you in good stead for the early parts of the CAP509 course..... instead of learning all new things, you have a little experience and during the early stages of the course the flying is more or less going over the PPL course (but to a higher standard)

LP

[v1rotate]

EggBeta is correct with regards to who you know rather than what you know. The magic word here is “Networking”. Anything from getting into the airlines to meat bombing (is with the case with Loony Pilot), you will stand a better chance if you know someone on the inside. All those wannabes out there, I bet you can think of at least one or two of your friends, relatives, friends of friends etc that are employed with an airline as either a S/O, F/O, Captain, Training Captain etc. Talk to them and find out some info on what the recruitment drive is like and who to talk etc.

The other big issue which is similar to Crab Fats is the technique in acquiring that interview or ‘meeting’. Sending out CV’s achieve very little especially if you have low hours. When I finished my training (MCC was the last thing), I got in a car and drove all throughout England from as far south as Bournemouth to as far north as Liverpool. I stopped at every turbo prop operator’s head office and spoke to the chief pilot, director of flight ops or chief pilot. This was followed up by a short letter a couple of days later thanking them for taking the time to speak with me etc. This is followed by a phone call every 3-4 weeks re-instating that I’m still interested in a position and are there any positions available etc etc. I call this technique the Cold Pop In. The pop in is the hardest part and make sure you have a script to get talking with the person in charge. Don’t let the person at the front desk control the conversation and tell you to PFO. I could go on with the script but I’m sure you know what I’m talking about.

Both who you know and the cold pop in is very effective when done together and was surely a main factor in me securing a position on Turbo Props with 380 hours, MCC, Perf A and over a year of sending CV’s etc. Try to keep current and call all the Drop Zones out there every week to see if there are any vacant spots for pilots etc. Even better if you know someone doing para dropping or tugging. I was with a DZ operator only 6-7 weeks before being offered the airline job and I recommended a fellow wannabe for the position and is about to start dropping soon. All I can say is Networking, Networking, Networking (Loony can confirm this) and the cold pop in.


------------------
"STUNNED?... by Soup!?" - Elaine Benes - SEINFELD

[NORDIC]

Tarmach - I had just turned 19 when I did my 509 course, age 22 now, from the UK, yes.

Cheers,

NORDIC :)

[This message has been edited by NORDIC (edited 04 July 2001).]

[Chuffbaby]

Basic advice is KEEP BUILDING HOURS. Get an instructors rating / parachute / ferry work and when your total time gets near 1500 then you will stand a better chance.

Sorry to pour cold water, but you cannot rely on luck and perseverance alone. All the time you are plugging the job market you must remain current and increase your experience.

Airline hirers only really care about the cost of getting you on-line. If you are not type-rated, they look at jet/turbine/multi/total time in that order of preference.

To answer your original question, I was ex-military rotary, 900 hrs and I can assure you it was not easy getting into the airlines.

No rude comments from non-helo pilots please!

------------------
You know when you've been CHF'd!

[call the tower]

Personnaly I think its a pile of crap that you should have to go through all that for a JOB! After all thats what it is.

Unfortunately you do and if it's what your want to do then I guess you have no choice, as the saying goes "If you can't beat them join them"

The main problem lies in the fact that there are too many people for any one job. Until this fact changes it's always going to take a little bit more to get that job, this isn't just restricted to aviation but true of most professional jobs.

Bon Chance

[DeeTee]

I finished my CPL/IR and had run out of dosh. However I did manage to pass the ATP/CTC selection process and they put me into the RHS of a medium jet with CPL/IR Frozen ATPL and 31 years old. There is no doubt I would have been up s**t street without them. However I now understand that ATP require you to do their MCC course prior to acceptance.

I now have 1300 hours of which 1050 is on jets. Our company is still recruiting very low hours pilots (250 hours).

best of luck.

[martinf]

Nordic - Did you cold call for your 757 job?

Any advice for the Cap 509 course as I am about to start it.

Did you know people in the company you are now working for?

------------------
You can't have everything........Where would you put it?

[climbs like a dog]

There's not much rhyme or reason to airline recruitment. It took me 5 years to get that first airline job and 1000TT. There are some who hit it lucky and get a job without many hours or straight from training but otherwise you just have to get your derriere into the air and get hours! BTW I'm mid-thirties too.

I find this rubbish spoken about waiting long enough and persisting and eventually you'll get a job doesn't ring true. I'll wager there's a fair few people who drop out having completed training. They decide that being treated like something the various recruitment departments trod in on the way to work isn't what they started out for and fall by the way side after a few years having not increased experience due to lack of cash.

Ho hum.

I'm enjoying myself though!

[Deep Float]

I live in the UK, but of Dutch nationality. CAP509 course at OATS, 270TT, 60Twin. Current and recent experience (at £250 per hour!). Been working in aviation since 1988, mainly in Ops. 34 years of age. Graduated June 1999. Sent off about 500 letters. Two interviews: Aer Lingus and Crossair (note none in the UK, although 99% of my applications have gone that way). Must have failed both somewhere, although I passed the SIM.
I agree that I should have gotten my Instructors Rating straight after the CAP509 course, but that's hindsight for you. Currently work as an Ops Controller for an airline that only considers 1500+TT and prefers ex-military (more hindsight), so no chance there. Would do absolutely anything and go anywhere for any pay. I dó call after sending letters, but with a name like mine, the first response is "WHAT??" and by the time I've spelled it, they have lost interest. Sounds familiar? It's extremely demotivating, but I plan to keep on going until someone offers me some sort of flying job. I haven't spent all that money for nothing.

Keep on going. I'm sure we'll all get a chance someday, as long as we don't give up.

Suggestions welcome.
CV at www.btinternet.com/~pilots/cv1.doc (http://www.btinternet.com/~pilots/cv1.doc) also open for suggestions. This one was created with the help of the guy at CoPilot Publications, a great help and excellent source of information.

Good Luck

[This message has been edited by Deep Float (edited 06 July 2001).]

[NORDIC]

martinf

Advice for your integrated course....

Be very positive about what you are there for, be extremely organised in your work, and always remember that there is no such thing as too much revision for the ground subjects. Get as much out of your course as possible...ask lots of questions, and use others strengths to build on your weaknesses. Do the same for them. My course worked as an excellent team, and really complemented each other.

On the flying side, be prepared for each flight you fly thoroughly. Not learning for the flight, wastes valuable time in the air....good learning before will reinforce your practical work and will strengthen your performance considerably.

Operate your aircraft properly right from the beginning, because bad habits are very hard to get rid of later on.

When you are doing your pre exam revision, do as many questions as possible, as many times as possible. If you can, list the answers in sentence form to all of the questions you do and learn them as key facts.


With regards to gaining my 757 job, it was a case of 17 months of letters, followed by phone calls to all of the airlines. Targetting five which I really wanted to work for, and contacting them more frequently. Eventually, the application forms will come your way...and take it from there.

If you want to ask any specific questions, either now or during your course, email me here and I will be happy to help.

Good luck with the course, be brave in the hard times, and enjoy the happy times.

Cheers,

NORDIC :)

[Pilot Pete]

Deep Float,

Your link appears to take you straight into Btinternet's home page.....thought I'd take a look and offer some tips......

Nordic

Congrats on the job mate......she's a beaut isn't she just? Wait 'til your start 'dumping' her onto the 'macadam'!

PP

[and the chap said]

Deep Float & Pilot Pete,

I was interested in taking a look at the link too. There is a comma at the end of the link that shouldn't be there - try... www.pilots.btinternet.co.uk/cv1.doc (http://www.pilots.btinternet.co.uk/cv1.doc) . I hope you find success soon DF.

Nordic, congratulations on your recent success & thanks also for the advice. ;)

Cheers,
ATCS

[martinf]

Cheers for the advice Nordic - I am hoping to really get going as soon as possible.

Any tips for what I need to take out there - apart from the obvious?

I think the main thing will be to remain positive about job prospects whilst doing the course.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Pilot Pete]

Deep Float

Took a look at the CV and there is no problem with the layout, its clear, concise and all the info is easy to see.

The one problem I see with it is that you finished training in 1999 and only have 210hrs TT still. That will be a problem as there are other candidates out there who finished training after you and who will be building more hours and 'overtaking' you. You say you are 'recent' as a bullet point on the CV but I think a 'hirer' will not view it that way. Hope this helps, remember 210hrs/290hrs - no difference from the employers point of view, now 750-1000hrs flying instructing since finishing at Oxford in 1999............what do you think looks better on paper?

PP

ps I notice you are 1 day younger than me!

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

To follow up V1rotate's post.. who you know counts for a lot.
IF you can get someone to put in a good word for you at their company.. or recommend someone to take over their job when they move onwards...

I guess its about making yourself stand out from the crowd cause there are a lot of us out there with 300 odd hours and CAP509 courses.

LP

[Deep Float]

Pilot Pete & Chap Said,

Thanks for the hint. I have updated the link as this one didn't always work anyway.

With recent I mean some flying on the past two months. I try to fly real ME/IR regularly (EGHI), with an instructor as safety pilot to tell me what areas need work. So ME/IR current, I would say yes. As for hours, hindsight is the word in many respects. I was dum enough to think that my Ops background would give an edge and boy, was I wrong. I now realise that as long as I would remain doing this work, I'll probably never get in the flying business. So I need to get out asap. Problem is, I can't really afford to. Instructors Rating comes at £5k, MCC at £2-3k, Type Rating on something like a KingAir or a Shed to about £8k. Where should I put my money? How the häll do I get a 1000 hours? Believe me, whatever it takes, I'd do it tomorrow.

Suggestions always welcome.


[This message has been edited by Deep Float (edited 06 July 2001).]

[Pilot Pete]

Deep Float

your only problem as I see it is as already mentioned; time since finishing your IR and TT of 210hrs. I would say you are unwise doing the 'odd' hour or two in a multi to keep current, because that's all it's doing and not enhancing you in the job market. Look at it from an employers point of view - you have 210hrs and are current (for arguments sake 2 hours last month) and another CV has 1000hrs with little more multi time but the candidate is working in the industry as an instructor and flew 80hrs last month. Which one do you think will get the interview just about every time? I am being blunt and I do not wish to belittle anything you have done or not done, but the employers are blunt and brutal when it comes to interview selection.

You don't need to spend all your (un-owned as yet) cash on instructor/MCC/multi time etc etc in one go. What you need is hours and employment. You say you'll do anything 'tomorrow' to get that job. My advice would be to find the money and get the instructors rating asap. It's a lot easier to get a flying job if you're already in a flying job and building hours whilst searching. MCC is a requirement, but some airlines are taking the 'right candidate' without it and tagging it on to the sim training.

Finally (lecture over!) do remember that a hundred hours here or there just doesn't make a difference to the hirers and firers so you could spend your £5k on buying hours but the relatively low number of hours that that will get you is really not going to enhance your CV to the degree that you would think. I know it's difficult but we all find out the hard way that 400hrs is really no better than 200 except that its going in the right direction!

You're this far in, don't let it beat you now, it's those who push that bit further that reap the rewards.

Good luck

PP

[Crab Fat]

Isn't this a good thread, I have read it with real interest. There are people who are giving good advice for the real wannabe, is it me or is this how PPRuNe used to be a year or two ago?

I have 1000 hours, most of that is instructing but I do have 120 ish hours ME. The job offers are NOT flooding in. However, I am making a good living and I don't have that 'I will die if I don't get an airline job soon' feeling.

Instructing can be a good way to the hours and you get paid too. Things are lean in the winter but you can survive if you can put some dosh away in the summer. When I ring up airlines to back up the CV I feel I am taken more seriously. I don't have a type rating or 1000 hours of EFIS jet time, but they always want more! Another point of interest is that you never know who you are going to check out for private hire, I have flown with many airline pilots, it's all about building up contacts!

Good luck to all instructing pays and keeps you flying.

[Deep Float]

Pete,
Got your point.
Better find some dosh for the instructors rating then. Are these jobs relatively easy to get by in your opinion?

80 hours a month! Wauw!!!

[bottle2throttle]

What does 'PFO' stand for? :confused:

[Manflex55]

Pretty First Officer (someone U don't meet very often during your career)

[v1rotate]

I've always thought PFO meant "Please F*%K Off". :p

[mfds]

I got a PPL when I was 21, spent 5 years working in Computing spending my holidays in the USA building hours and ratings.
At 26 I quit my lucrative computing job and did my then BCPL and instructors rating, worked for 3 years doing that being paid peanuts and claiming housing benifit, living a caravan for a year of that.
Did my IR and with only 15 hours multi and 1100 hours blasted my CV everywhere.
Got a lucky break with a TurboProp job 200 miles from home - I was over the moon !
After 1 year the same company put me on a jet, I did 6 years with them in total and had a fantastic time.
I'm now 35 and work for BA on mainline - after going through their selection 3 times !

The moral is - be persistant, dont give up, except any job to gain experience, be flexible where you will work (ie. anywhere !), eventually you will get there !

[ 09 July 2001: Message edited by: mfds ]

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

I'm really pleased that this post has been well received and also its great that many of the replies are of such high quality :)

Keep em coming!!!!!!!

[Pilot Pete]

Deep Float

Nothing is easy when it comes to getting a job in this industry, but getting a flying instructors job with 200+hrs is certainly easier than getting an airline job.

You still need to put yourself about and do your homework making contacts etc etc. One good point is to enquire if the school that does your FI rating would consider you after successful completion.

80hrs a month was a 'shot in the dark' but perfectly achievable at a busy school in summer time. Again, you may find that your lack of planning will not leave you best placed this summer to achieve those kind of hours..........I knew a chap who went to Welshpool, lived in a caravan and got something like 800hrs in one summer! It all depends on how much you want it..........He finished at Oxford around Christmas 1998 and has decided to stay instructing.........He's now an OATS instructor on twins in the US!

Get out there, get it done, get yourself employed and start enjoying flying again.

Good Luck.

PP