FI jobs next season [Archive]

200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz

7th Oct 2001, 01:54

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 03:45

just back from pub. standby for photon torpedos in the morn....

WWW

Delta Wun-Wun

7th Oct 2001, 09:45

But if everyone sticks two fingers up to this FTO then he will have to stump up some wages.Who is going to work full time for nothing?How would you eat.You cannot claim of the state as you are not available for work.
Next we will have 737 operators offering FO positions for £10/day retainers and no pay. :mad: ;)

schuler_tuned

7th Oct 2001, 10:34

not so long ago to instruct to ppl standard required only a ppl,the requiste hours and of course an fi rating. the finicial rewards
being limited to the equivalent of www's retainer. wages are directly proportional to supply and demand, and should there be more fi's than fi postions then it's a possibilty, especialy if the fto passes on the saving to attract more custom through cheaper lessons.
as for 737 operators offering retainers for fo's; check out any old copies of flight int'
when times have been bad and count how many
"fly for food" adverts there are in the sit's wanted column, and the're not refering to fi positions.
we're a disparate bunch in the best of times, in the worst we invairably become desparate.

helimutt

7th Oct 2001, 12:30

A while ago, I posted a question about my instructing for free. I decided against it in the end for the reason that some people make their living from this and we have all spent a lot of money to be there.
Personally I think the flying schools who do employ people on a retainer such as has been rumoured above, are basically a bunch of c**ts.
You do now need the commercial exams passed before being an FI so this is more expense. Anyone agreeing to a retainer and nothing else is also a c**t, ruining the very industry they've tried hard to get into.
Hopefully WWW is winding people up.
Rant complete!!

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 12:55

This post from www has made me mad.
Since Sept 11 WWW has done nothing but post negativity as soon as he hears something detrimental with respect to pilot job prospects. Some of the figures he has printed have been way over the top and the doom and gloom that he posts is very speculative and unrepresentative of the industry as I and many others view it. I am not a Go 737 pilot but I do have close friends in many UK airlines working as pilots and in other jobs too. Also I have many friends working as instructors and also have good relationships with a couple of flying school owners. The message I get from everyone is there are jobs out there and things are not as bad as you may think. None of the flying schools I use have had drops in bookings or noticed any down tern in trade what so ever. Yes I know about the cadet sponsorships that have been cancelled or put on hold.. Does WWW not realise we are in a position of uncertainty at the moment and until we KNOW what is happening we should not cast out silly rumours that may damage peoples motivation and aspirations. I am training for my JAR CPL and I am on the home run now, I have two FI job offers already just by getting out there and getting to know people.

When it gets to the point when we KNOW there are going to be very few jobs and we KNOW it will be as bad as after the Gulf war then WWW can get on his soapbox.

WWW I do appreciate everything you do for this site (apart from the above).

Well excuse me for making you mad. Obviously I should keep quiet about the whole thing - in the words of Lord Melchet "Baaa, thats right George, if nothing else then a blind refusal to look facts in the face will get us through, baaa"...`

Of the figures I have used that have been "way over the top" would you care to use specific examples..? As for your close friends not seeing a slow down in GA well thats fine and dandy - neither has the fto owner to whom I refer seen a slowdown yet. There might not be a GA slowdown. WHAT THERE WILL BE is about 1,100 people with CPL/IR's chasing every job come next spring. Which means that at least 30% will do, or hold, FI ratings which means that Mr FTO owner will be oversubscribed by 100% for every job.

That is his view as of last night. As now past on to you guys. For what thats worth.

Oh and its not someone for whom I have ever worked in case people are wondering.

200V - as for KNOWING that its as bad as the Gulf War and that there are very few jobs - well it is and there are. Yep things will pick up in a year or two. Just like the Gulf War. Yep the underlying conditions are good for recovery. But look at the facts. I would be being irresponsible if I did not spell out quiet clearly the pertinent conditions of the Wannabe marketplace. Its what I have always done here. Its just that for the last few weeks - and for the 1st time since PPRuNe came into being - those conditions have been negative.

What motivation do I have to paint things in too bleak a colour I ask you?

Anyhows.

To those that do not remember - following the Gulf War slowdown FI's on PPL work with little experience were generally paid nothing at all. Many were "on the list" at several schools whereby they would get a call if work was available that day. Like being on permanent standby. They would make no charge for their work in exchange for hours and currency. Some of the more enlightened FTO's paid £5 for turning up for the day if called. There were lots of regional variations depending on circumstance. Flight International carried at least a double page of Jobs Wanted ads by type rated jet Captains.

Its supply and demand pure and simple. The UK already has enough flying instructors. The UK will not have any jobs for those FI's higher up the food chain for the next 12 months. Of the hundreds and hundred of low time CPL/IR's out there several hundred will do FI ratings. There will be a glut of FI's. Wages will fall. FTO owners know this. FTO owners talk to me. I pass it on to you. DON'T shoot the messenger.

I hope it does not happen as much as you. I have several good chums working as Flying Instructors - remember I was one until Feb this year...

Cheers,

WWW

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

SuperTed

7th Oct 2001, 13:14

WWW,

Answer me this then. Many people would 'work for food' but what about practical constraints such as bringing in a wage and after all eating, not to mention paying off costly debts. Also how many wives would stand by guys who disappear for 40 hours a week and bring nothing into the home, especially if they also have young kids. How many guys do this?? Surely such educated people as we are, wouldn't it make more sense to find a good 9 to 5 job and spend that money on flying plus giving the wife a little too??

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 13:34

There are plenty of people who can for various reasons work for free. Example: I have a friend with wealthy parents who own a garage. They paid for his OATS training and will do so for an FI ticket if necessary. He lives within 30 mins of 2 flying schools.

With no debt he will work in the family business pumping gas. If the phone rings he will toddle off to the airfield and do some flying and then return to the family business.

Its not much of a living but he will get by. His hours will be increasing and his flying will retain some modicum of recency.

He is willing to do this in order to position himself for the upturn. As I have advised him to do.

No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.

However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.

Its a tough world.

WWW

SuperTed

7th Oct 2001, 13:48

Thats true, I see the point. Although I'm sure this guy is in the minority. Many people I have met have debts, living either with a wife or girlfriend and some have children. It also depends I think on where in the country you intend to work as a FI. Some areas have higher living costs than others etc.

hotwings

7th Oct 2001, 14:13

It is quite obvious what WWW's game is here, throughout this once useful bulletin board...he is so scared about his job that he wants to reduce the number of pilots coming on to the market. The more wannabes he can persuade not to start training or to give up, the better are his chances to get another job if GO do what there name suggests.

I don't wish this on Go or indeed the welshian him/her/itself but it does seem to be the objective behind all of these monotonous posts.

If I were a PPrune advertiser I would object to the destructive voice talking down the industry especially as the voice has more priveliges than most on this board

Do they wear turbans in Wales?

:mad: Hotwings, you are right out of order. WWW spend shis free time dispensing advice to ingrates like you because he feels it will help arm you for the hard times to come. The suggestion that he is trying to protect his position should things turn down at Go is beneath contempt - and if I were him, I'd have a lawyer's letter at your door today. Finally, your last paragraph is so incredibly insulting to so many people, I cannot believe your insensitivity. You, sonny, start apologising, before I ban you from this board.
Scroggs :mad:

[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: Scroggs ]

Sick

7th Oct 2001, 14:34

WWW, too often immaturity and ugly tones of shadenfreude come through in your musings. The point people are making is that you a saying what doesn't need to be said. If FTO owners believe that this is what wannabes will put up with, then your twaddle will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 14:39

hotwings - you Sir are a complete Arse.

Working in the low cost sector with a good few FO's below me on the seniority list I am not too worried. Not complacent but not worried.

Even if I were would it really matter to me if there are an extra couple of hundred people out there with 200hrs...? Last time I counted I had over 2000hrs a JAA ATPL and over 500 Boeing hours. Which is not much in the big scheme of things but it isn't 200hr Boy Wonders that worry me come job application time is it? :rolleyes:

I'm advising delaying costly training for a relativelyu short time period. Nothing more.

Why?

Because its what I would do if I were back in that position again.

Simple. So wind your neck in with regards to the ulterior motive nonsense and let me and the PPRuNe management team worry about the advertisers.

WWW

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 14:50

Sick. What I am saying does need saying IF I am addressing Wannabes with very little knowledge of the aviation market. Which I am.

I am also addressing people who perhaps like yourself do understand the curent conditions. To whom my 'musings' might well be unwanted. In which case you will probably ignore me and follow your own judgement.

I am unwilling to throw the baby out with the bath water though and make all my postings full of IF's and BUT's.

If you refute what I post then rather than whine on at me about it why don't you spend a little time and post your own opinion/assessment of the situation that refutes mine?

That way all Wannabes benefit from gaining a read of a well argued debate <spot my policy here, nudge nudge>.

If I wanted to I could easily be a whole lot more negative with some justification...

Why would I have enojoy shadenfreude when it is my fellow PPRuNe Moderator who is contemplating redundancy alongside my best mate from University, my Aunt, at least 4 ex-students of mine and several close friends?

I'd have to be a heartless man for that.

As for immature - please ellaborate, or, just stop throwing random insults.

WWW

EPRman

7th Oct 2001, 15:08

WWW,
Do you derive some kind of perverse pleasure from your constant gloom and doom mongering?
We all know the score regarding the present situation.Have some consideration for those who have lost or are about to lose their jobs and indeed the wannabes. They don't need reminding every time they log on this site.Give it a rest.

Winkiepinkie

7th Oct 2001, 15:56

Have people suddenly become stupid in the wake of what has recently happened? I can’t believe what I’m reading. WWW is offering nothing but GOOD SOUND advice. He, perhaps more than most of the readers, contributors etc on this site, is more qualified, and ‘in the know’ to pass his opinion and more importantly state the facts (which is what he is doing). If you choose to ignore them, then fine, but I don’t think you can blame him for advising people on the current situation (and for God’s sake lets face it, impending doom) of pilot training. If you have a problem with what he says, then fine, ignore it. I cannot believe the likes of EPRman and hotwings have suggested what they have (personal gain and perverse pleasure). What a pair of morons.

WWW, I wouldn’t waste my time even in responding to these posts. They are a minority, and an insignificant one at that. Perhaps 90 – 95% of the readers of the Wannabes forum not only are aware of the dire situation, but also agree with your (valuable) opinions. Unlike them, we appreciate the work you do for Pprune & al wannabes (I’m sure I speak for many of the readers).

I don’t mean to sound all "sucky sucky" or pro "what-ever-WWW-says", but he has in the past offered nothing but sound logical advice. It seems when things are all peachy you’re happy to listen, when the **** hits the fan you have a go. VERY foolish and naïve.

Wee Weasley Welshman

7th Oct 2001, 16:23

Winkiepinkie - thanks for that, I've a thick skin but even I get a little stressed by the kicking some people want to give me.

For all those of the opinion that I should desist. I hear your points and can see your argument. I really can.

But it is my rational and calculated decision to take the stance that I have. I think its what I would have wanted were I still in a desk job/education and thinking about becoming a pilot for a living. I'd want someone to point out the realities and if he were a slight pessimist that would probably be a good thing e.g. a few knots on final, a bit of fuel for Mum.

I'll be the first to bang the recruitment drum when the time comes - as it surely will.

Input is always welcome. Please also bear in mind that it is the Moderators role to provoke discussion. I - unlike most - don't use a pseudonym for this purpose which is perhaps one reason why I might seem to stick my oar in quite a lot.

Cheers,

WWW

scroggs

7th Oct 2001, 16:38

WinkiePickie, forget it. These idiots don't want to hear well-intentioned and sound advice, they want to be reassured. Well, here we go:

:) OK, people, forget everything we've told you over the past month. Everything really is wonderful out there in this best of all possible worlds. There are oodles of jobs to be had, and I strongly recommmend that you spend £65,000 on an integrated course as soon as you possibly can. Better still, do it with the latest get-rich-quick outfit that you find, as they're all good chaps really. On the extremely remote chance that you find getting a jet command a little difficult in the first week or two after graduation, you'll find lots of FTOs willing to ignore the rules of supply and demand and who'll pay you £100k pa to fly once a month teaching the local grocer to fly a C150, while offering you an MCC course and B747-400 simulator time for free.
You'll, of course, have the use of one of your FTO's many Ferraris for impressing the many women who no doubt surround you at all times, and you'll get unlimited supplies of pheromone-reinforced 'Stud' BO-concealer to aid your chances.
Once you've done a month or two FI-ing for this FTO, your Concorde/777/744 captaincy with BA is assured, and you won't have to concern yourself with anything so trivial as a selection process as the grateful aviation industry will be on its knees to beg you to grace them with your presence. :p

On the other hand you could listen to, and be grateful for, a realistic view of life in aviation. And if you don't like it, go back to IT or accountancy, or train driving, or kindergarten, or whatever it is you came from. We don't need you. :mad:

Delta Wun-Wun

7th Oct 2001, 18:59

Scroggs,You forgot to mention the huge holidays as well. :D :D
At the end of the day the decision to start flight training will remain with the individual.There is plenty of advice on prune regarding which way to go.If you want to spend £65000 right now on flight training then go ahead.It may however be worth waiting a while for things to pan out.You need to time your training to finish when there might be some jobs about.
The Industry at the moment is in a bit of a panic.Things are quite gloomy.It is no use shouting at WWW and Scroggs if you don`t like what you hear.(Scroggs is in a lot worse a position than most of use as he may not have a job at the end of the month).
Things will pick up,but may not be for a while.
Before 11th Sept things were the best they have ever been for hiring of low time pilots,it still was bloody hard to land a job though.
People may benefit in the long run.Course prices may come down a bit to try and attract new business.This is one of the benefits of modular training as you can speed up or slow down training accordingly.
Some people will attempt to exploit the situation ie the FTO who will want people to fly for nothing....but I bet their prices compare with the FTO who pay a living wage to their staff.
At the end of the day if you want to sign up for a £65000 now then go on.You`ll need quite a good job to pay your loan back whilst waiting for a jet job.Failing that can I have a go in your Dad`s Ferrari??

200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz

7th Oct 2001, 19:27

Well what fun this is!

First of all as I was the one who first attacked WWW on this post I can now respond to his reply.

WWW, I could have put things better last night but anyhow what I said still stands. I think that some of the things you post on the doom and gloom side do not help in any way , on the other hand some things do help. I would not advise someone to spend 65K tomorrow on a course either but I would not cast speculation on what might happen if all it will do is get up peoples noses. I am not ignoring the facts but I believe as I said last night that we are in a period of uncertainty and we should only post when we are certain about something. We do not know that the instructor market will be a complete nightmare next year, when we do and we have good strong reliable and justified evidence then we should advise people to put the brakes on a bit. I do not believe we have reached that point yet and until then I think posting speculative negativity or even the truth about the odd job loss here and there will do no good.

WWW I have to stand up for you where “Hotwings” is concerned but I probably share in his frustration sometimes. As for the post from Sgroggs, well…….

I too hope that things will not get that bad but I am fully aware they might, and it all might go down the pan for most of us. Until then let’s try and offer constructive help to people rather than being the first person to announce that if things get bad some time and I don’t know when it will be hell. (Hell is not here yet)

I think what gets up peoples noses about some of your posts is the tone not the content, sometime the way you put things across comes out in a kind of (“listen to what I just found out, I am the clever one” ;) I don’t mean that in a nasty way but I think it is true.

Anyway enough of me, (and Andy 99.9% of us do appreciate what you do post 95% of the time)

:)

scroggs

7th Oct 2001, 20:09

200v, D11, glad you enjoyed my little rant! Hopefully, people will get the point that the advice we give is given in good faith and with your best interests at heart. All I can say is, I now know how my parents felt!!!

moleslayer

7th Oct 2001, 21:44

Well said Scroggs & WWW,(white hat & baddie)as just a lurker on this site its been very interesting to note how the tone of wannabe posts has changed from the disbelief & horror we all experienced after 11th Sept,to the attitudes now ranging from the ostrich like,to the reckless.
At the risk of appearing a boring old fart,here's my fourpennorth.Most references to 'we have all been here before'go back 10 years to the Gulf War,well it was exactly the same 10 years before that-in,the Falklands.Some of us drove trucks and instructed at weekends,yes,for nothing,zilch & lived in a caravan on the field.No cadetships then chaps.
By the time the Gulf conflict blew up,apprenticeships had been served on King-Airs across the North Sea overloaded with newspapers,Viscount nightfreighters,F27's (hand flown),the list could go on.Having secured that elusive 'Airline' job,the failures rocked the industry just as now:Bcal,Air Europe,Dan Air,Air Anglia et al.
Now,jet commands that had taken anywhere between 11-20years to secure were gone,relegation to the LHS & redundancy for the newboys.See,it's all been done before.
Looking back from the relative security of having 500 'Names' behind on the seniority list,was it worth it? Of course it was.But maybe you guys&gals will understand why some of us read these posts with a wry grin,a sense of Deva-Ju,and a feeling that some of you are not yet living in the real world.
Both WWW & Scroggs talk good sense in their own way,be sure that there will be an upturn,but don't be reckless with your hard earned cash.Oh,& don't expect it all to be handed on a plate,it requires tenacity to succeed in this business.

Whirlybird

7th Oct 2001, 21:59

I don't believe what I'm reading!!!! I was under the illusion this was PPRuNe, ie Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network. That means people can post what they know, what they hear, what they think - absolute certainty is NOT required. And you may not like some of it. Well, tough. But to blame WWW for posting something he had HEARD about is childish, stupid, and way out of order. You can burble on as much as you like about negativity, the tone of WWW's arguments etc, but it doesn't alter that fact. You're lucky the moderators here have got more patience than I have; I'd have banned some of you long before now.

Why don't you GROW UP if you EVER expect to get anywhere in aviation, because at the moment I wouldn't employ some of you whining idiots as loo cleaners, let alone airline pilots.

TangoZulu

8th Oct 2001, 01:19

Whirlybird, I quite agree - I thought this was supposed to be an open forum with honest, professional opinions. Just because WWW discusses honestly and realistically his view of the situation (and probably mine as a PPL thinknig about the future), it would appear that some contributors to this forum would rather stick their heads in the sand and ignore the problems.

Just becasue you do not like a situation, it does not mean it will go a away, or more importantly, should not be discussed.

WWW, thanks for all your help and advice which you dispense so freely to Wannabes like myself - long may it continue, regardless of the petty sniping from some members of this forum. :cool:

TZ

robione

8th Oct 2001, 01:42

Well after reading this [all of it] im gobsmacked,especially the part from WWW about the flight school owner and his plans not to pay instructors[i hope the pigs school crashes]its an outrage.In the light of recent events i was 50 % to making a decision to get out of instructing back to my old job where the pay is good and just pay to keep current,im now 100% ive got to live like everyone else.Im going to do my IR and try and keep current till things improve.Sorry but no way am i instructing for free, and IMHO anyone that does, well i,ll keep a lid on my feelings there. :( :mad:

Wee Weasley Welshman

8th Oct 2001, 03:34

Can we all be friends again now please?

Cheers,

WWW

Sagey

8th Oct 2001, 04:59

I honestly cannot believe some of the personalisation of posts.

Unfortunately this is one major problem with the internet, it is easy to sit there and type, much harder to have the balls and come out and say it face to face.

Healthy debate is essential for such posts, if you have evidence to disprove a post then say it but lets not get personal.

Personally speaking, I would suggest adopting a wait and see policy. Hopefully this Afghanistani war will be over soon, the terrorist threat removed and confidence restored in the aviation industry. If it drags on some airlines are likely to go under, but as IFR has said previously new airlines will be borne once demand picks up. I don't personally believe that I could get funding for flight training atm, no bank will say yeah go ahead here is 60k, as Banks will be aware that the job situation is not great. Unfortunately training takes around 14 months, so some educated guess work will have to be taken prior to commencing any course for the forseable future. Time it right and the gamble has paid off, time it wrong and you will be in large debts, struggling to find a job and remaining current.

Some people are likely to be able to work for nowt, others won't be. Unfortunately times appear bleak atm, and a lot of the posts appear to me to be borne out of frustration or just plain "I don't want to believe someone elses opinion".

It will be interesting to see if Flying Schools cut prices for integrated courses in an attempt to boost demand. Unfortunately fuel prices, landing fees etc are fixed costs. To cut prices, a flying school has to cut costs to maintain profitability or in the very least break even. Economics states that to remain in business in the long run, a firm should at the very least break even. One way in which to cut costs is to cut salaries of the Flying Instructors and staff, as well as belt tightening as much as possible. Noone wants to hear it, noone wants to accept it but I can honestly see flying schools doing such.

The ironic and perhaps the sad bit being, that for some wannabes it could be the ideal time to at least get that license out of the way (lower prices for integrated courses) and for others who have their licenses be a totally unacceptable, miserable state of affairs.

Don't shoot down WWW it does make economic sense what he is saying, it might not happen who knows, I certainly don't! but it is a viable option for flying schools and a real possibility.

Best of luck to everyone

Sagey

8th Oct 2001, 05:30

Hey Scroggs.....you've been looking at the FTO marketing departments patter manual!!
(your rant wasn't that far off what they told me three years ago!)
I'm sure, by the way, the overwhelming majority of us appreciate both your and WWW's analysis/reflection of the job situation. It's all food for thought and can help one to formulate a plan.

Polar_stereographic

8th Oct 2001, 11:37

Not wishing to get into the personal argument against WWW vs etc etc.

However, as I understand it, the ONLY advice being given out is to delay training if possible and wait and see what happens over the next few months.

What I will say is that this message is delivered with a VERY heavy hand, and as such is generating a similar response. I agree with the advice, but the way it's written with all doom and gloom with every changing event, does tend to rub some up the wrong way (me included btw).

Lets cut the personal bit out and get on with the real debates.

PS

Token Bird

8th Oct 2001, 20:54

WWW,

I haven't got involved in any of your 'doom-mongering' threads before now, mainly because I think your advice is relatively sound. I have decided not to take your advice myself, but this is due to my circumstances more than anything (ie, I handed in my notice on 10th September, having already made arrangements to start full-time ground school). I'm also not going to shoot the messenger with regard to your posting about the FTO with the retainer-only deal.

However, I do take exception to the following:

He is willing to do this in order to position himself for the upturn. As I have advised him to do.

No amount of imploring people to stick to a standard and not work for free will work. It never has. Its infuriating that people will do this.

However, I have advised my friend to follow this route becuase I know that if he does not then he is shooting himself in the foot long term. And he is a friend and it is important I help him.

So you're going to shoot the rest of us in the foot instead? Ta. For you to advise a silver-spoon-in-mouth spoiled rich kid to work for free is very irresponsible.

Firstly your comment 'he is willing to do this...', makes it sound as if he's sacrificing something. I'm sorry, he gets everything handed to him on a plate by his rich daddy and gets to build hours at someone else's expense. Poor sod. My heart bleeds for him.

Having been an instructor yourself I would've thought you would know how this kind of behaviour is looked upon by real instructors, particularly career instructors who see their salaries forced down enough as it is by hour-builders, but working for free? I am shocked that you would encourage this. You're basically adding to the problem and making the airline industry even more elitist than it already is! You even say yourself that you find it infuriating. So stop setting a precedent! Bloody hell.

no sponsor

8th Oct 2001, 21:19

WWW - Please find out who was the handling pilot on GO on Friday night from STN to EDI dep 21:45 and tell him:

I will soon be fully recovered from the shocking landing - only a few more trips to the doc and the spacing of my vertebrae will be back to normal.

Maybe his rad alt was faulty?

Base leg

9th Oct 2001, 00:06

WWW- telling it how it is- well done Sir, I can only think some wannabees forgot to take their screens (blinkers) down.
One point though- In 1991 there wasn't a minimum wage- there is now- it might not be alot but it should stop the free labour scenario.These days the only work you can do for free is for a charity.

'I' in the sky

9th Oct 2001, 04:32

Which CFI/School ?

Maybe those who are familiar with it can then assess whether the attitude has a bearing on the product.Market forces or not, one way or another you get what you pay for.

Wee Weasley Welshman

9th Oct 2001, 04:43

Token Bird. A mates a mate at the end of the day. I value my friends more than my principles on employment practice. Thats just me I guess.

WWW

moggie

9th Oct 2001, 18:53

Come on guys - off WWW's back. He posted a FACT and expressed an opinion about it - is this not what the forum is for?

I personally think that trying to get FI's to work for nothing stinks and any CFI/FTO operator who does this stinks too - but if that is how they want to work, then so be it. I just hope they don't expect loyalty when the business picks up.

However, if someone is prepared to work for nothing, that is their business, too. I could not afford to do it but some can and they are perfectly within their rights so to do.

I also do not think that WWW is consistently negative - I have seen him post many glowing words about his old (and my current) employers at BAE Systems in Jerez. He does, however, have lots of contacts and a realistic approach.

So, live and let live - opinion is good, insult is bad!

TTFN

Moggie

PS - WWW who are you? I think you left before I transferred from PIK! e-mail and let me know!

[ 09 October 2001: Message edited by: moggie ]

foghorn

9th Oct 2001, 20:37

Hmm I too have tended to keep out of these job market threads, but the machine-gunning of the messenger that has taken place is completely out of order.

I may not agree with everything that they say, but personally I much more respect WWW, scroggs and IFR's input into these debates than certain anonymous member's postings. No-one can doubt their bona fides and the sincerity of their intentions: these people through pprune have shown their commitment to wannabes. To suggest they have hidden agendas is plain silly. As has been said, it's easy to pour vitriol into a computer and semi-anonymously post to an internet bulletin board, but it's not very grown-up.

I speak as a person at the sharp end as it were, with no job, an IR dated September 12th 2001 and only 250 hours TT.

Not that you need my support, chaps, but you have it anyway.

cheers!
foggy.

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Oct 2001, 02:06

Cheers chaps.

Moggie, email on way,

WWW

Nishko

10th Oct 2001, 11:52

Much of the point has been missed again during the depressingly familiar clash of egos that has become an unfortunate 'feature' of this forum of late.

Remember, and this is basic stuff, that the success and prosperity of any capitalist economy relies for the greater part on CONFIDENCE. Confidence is something generated when perception of any given circumstance is one of positivist, growth and expansion.

This industry like any other relies on a tangible level of confidence both from investors and consumers alike, and particularly from consumers in our case. No one here disputes the implications of the current climate, but you people do us all a great dis-service by entering into protracted debate based on so much opinion.

What any industry, nation, or political party needs at time of distress is to show a united and POSITIVE face during times of uncertainty. I say 'political party', and use the phrase advisedly because this is all about politics. The airline industry, whether it likes it or not has got an image problem within the public domain at the moment, and until public confidence is restored, there will be no upturn. Forget the infighting - if you want to turn on anyone, turn on the press. As is so often the case in this backward country of ours the media have been allowed to create a storm out of thin air. All of a sudden the globe associates air travel with terror and death. Air travel has been an unfortunate victim of global events, but as the professional face of this industry we need to embark on a delicate political recovery operation.

We all know that the media poke around in this forum looking for scandal and intrigue, so let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here.

Regarding FIs working for nothing, anyone should think very carefully about the implications of doing anything for nothing. Not only does this put the employee in an impossibly weak position, but it f**ks up the balance of power for everyone else. Are the FTOs getting any less from their students for the same training they always get? I don't think so. We are all desperate for hours and experience, but I think we once again need to show a united front here and put an end to this nonsense. Don't work for free, in fact paying for work is what you're doing in these circumstances.

N

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Oct 2001, 13:47

Nishko - laudable sentiments I am sure.

The flip side of us all putting a brave face on things would be to say that we are refusing to look facts in the face of course.

As pilots we generally hope for the best but plan for the worst. We are also open, succinct and lucid in our analysis of problems confronting us. These traits mitigate against any desire to brush this under the carpet or just suffer in dignified silence as a Wannabe community.

Do you not think?

WWW

Nishko

10th Oct 2001, 14:56

I do think, but maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. The sentiment of my statement was intended to emanate a more positive and united front to the outside world - that being 'Jo public'. Those of us that are affected by current circumstances are only too aware of what is going on, so constant negative discussion here is not 'facing the situation' or 'educating' anyone regarding the facts of the problem, it is merely reinforcing an already gloomy atmosphere.

The public are the important factor here, and it is they who are interested in seeing an industry that is confident, positive, and professional. Only then will we start to see an upturn.

Like I said before, we are faced with a political challenge here, not an information shortage. Regardless of how much it hurts us to put a brave face on things, that is what we have to do. Remember, the general public's understanding of the airline industry is limited only to what it can understand from the media. The media are our key here to do a little 'spin doctoring' of our own.

I don't want to see anything being 'swept under the carpet' and I do not believe that taking a positive attitude and presenting a more brave public face is doing that. Times are tough, but the industry has enjoyed a long period of good times too, and good times coupled with investment and infrastructure tend to have a more powerful momentum than you'd think. The world is absolutely wrapped up in air travel, and it also has a very short memory. There is no conceivable way that half of the world's population is going to stop flying. They may threaten to as a reaction to feeling helpless and scared, but life is life, and it has to go on.

Importantly, what ever the causes and the blame, no one (particularly the public as a whole) likes to see an industry moaning when times are tough, it just isn't attractive. Unfortunately there are many who still see the airline industry as being a bit of a fat cat, and will have very little sympathy. This is why we need to be so careful now, and earn respect back.

Nish

mutt

10th Oct 2001, 16:14

I got involved in flying in the late 80’s which was a time when Irish airlines were actually phoning people with lapsed Commercial licenses and asking them if they wanted flying jobs. When I sat my PPL exams there were 4 people in the same hall sitting their ATPL exams.

With an upswing in the market, EI started their cadet scheme again and the numbers of people sitting exams rocketed, there were at least 100 people there when I sat my Commercial exams.

In the early 90’s, the Gulf War, the Australian pilots strike, the demise of a number of UK airlines together with Pan Am and Eastern, pilot jobs became incredibly scarce. The ones that were available were going to experienced crews. It took around 3-4 years before we started the next upswing.

The aviation industry is still on the way down, the Guv has written about this looming recession for months, but no one wanted to listen to him. We are going to see a lot more airlines going broke in the next 6 months with a lot of people losing their jobs. In the 90’s pilots escaped to the Middle East and Asia, but these options no longer exist, EK are the only Middle Eastern airline hiring groups of pilots, the Asian airlines are scaling down.

I am therefore pleased when I read comments by WWW and Scoggs, they are telling you the truth based on what they have seen in their aviation careers. You don’t have to listen to them, after all it is your money and time that you are investing, but you must do it with the knowledge that the days of walking into the right seat of a jet airliner with 200 hrs are GONE. They will come again, all that you have to do is make sure that you have a way to pay back your loans until that day.

Finally getting back to the original topic, I remember a comment attributed to the owner of IONA, (Defunct flight school in Dublin.) he believed in the late 80’s that he could get instructors to pay for the privilege of instructing in order to build hours. I don’t know if he ever tried this plan, but he wouldn’t have had any problems finding volunteers.

Good Luck and welcome to the wonderful world of aviation..

Mutt. :)

Atlanta

10th Oct 2001, 16:18

I should like to add my expression of appreciation to those already posted for the contributions of WWW. I agree with him that one must be realistic in these difficult times.

What ho Weasles! I was in Weasle country last week, down the Pembrokeshire coast. Lovely!

Suggs

10th Oct 2001, 22:36

Sorry Boys

The proof in the puddin' is that I flew over Oxford this week, gin clear, don't remember it being that windy and either everyone or all but one of there A/C was on the deck.

Looks to me that it has already started!!

plugg

11th Oct 2001, 20:02

The affore mentioned FTO owner has to be a "charming character" based in Wales.

QUERY

12th Oct 2001, 04:51

Do they wear, or just talk, turds in London?
P.S. The turban is not exclusive to their religion but is generally regarded as the headgear of Sikh men- it is, therefore, far more common in London than Wales.
P.P.S. If you wish to survive, don't suggest that Sikhs are Muslims.

Blindside

12th Oct 2001, 23:15

Nishko

Although you raise some valid points, I don’t agree with your stance about maintaining a positive and united public image on this site.

Although accessible by the general public, PPRuNe is supposedly for pilots and aspiring pilots and should be used as a vehicle for open and honest debate on the state of the aviation industry as people see it. I for one do not feel that valid thoughts should be silenced in case a journalist or Joe Public reads it.

If a bit of honesty makes someone think before investing a sizeable sum, then the Wannabes forum has done its job. Which is the greater evil? - A journo finding a quote from an ex flying instructor or a 20 year old fella getting a £15k or a £60k loan with little chance of suitable employment for perhaps 2 years.

A positive mental attitude is one thing, self-delusion is another. Experience says that there will be an upturn but lets not delude ourselves that it’s not all a bit crappy at the moment.

WWW keep it up.

Best regards

aztruck

14th Oct 2001, 13:26

Supply and demand is a heartless taskmaster but if you cant build it into your plans quickly then you are destined to be a victim rather than a survivor.
Pilots are rather like Musicians or Actors. We are only neccessary as long as there are Passengers/Freight/Students.
Nobody is indispensible. Everyone can be replaced.
At the same time, I dont believe that small employers want to foster an atmosphere of fear loathing and paranoia which will contribute to them going out of business just as surely as some of their larger brethren.
Be keen, show willing in the face of adversity, be resourceful and experiment with new ways of organising your life to be in a position to grab chances as they may occur.
Think creatively. There are many instructors and no money.....there are many pupils with seemingly no money....and all of you want to fly Right?
There are many aeroplanes sitting on the ground costing money right?
If you all got together and instructed for free you would fly the wings of the a/c to the owners delight(also reducing the hourly costs considerably).
My guess is that you could be doing PPl's at US rates or cheaper. By interlining IMC and IR students on the same days you eliminate weather related groundings.
Training continues at night(why stop?)and IR approaches into the wee hours of the morning, where, bleary eyed you emerge at Coventry to refuel and hand the a/c over to your chums in the midlands who are going to do the same all the next day.
Now find a tame FTO and a base for the Pprune Flight Training network.
The Lunatics could thus take over the asylum.
Dont know if this would work but it costs nothing to speculate.