Take your shoes off - Aviation security

[Tartan Giant]

Aimed primarily at the Flight Deck Crew.

Pre Flight Airport Security Checks.

Forgive me everybody if this topic has been discussed recently - I have been absent from the forum for a while.

A new memo has just been published by the flag carrier regarding the levels of scrutiny flight crews must endure if "challenged" by a security person, that is, removal of ones shoes.

May I ask how the Flight Deck Crew community respond to this ludicrous farce and stupidity ?

I base my view on the fact the security person must hold a very high suspicion of a terrorist threat from the uniformed pilot, who has obviously failed the oral assessment and the ID test along with the pilot licence test as false (not to mention the full body scan) to reach the desperate stage that the pretender is hiding some weapon of suitable destruction within or about his/her shoes !

Everybody needs to be on HIGH alert to genuine security breaches, but is this latest nauseating security measure a paper exercise or do you all comply without a moan when so "challenged" ?

TG

[Notso Fantastic]

The US security has swung wildly from very little to, since 911, a slightly bizarre level in certain areas. I have stood and waited in the US whilst my co-pilot was progressively 'undressed' in a public security area. Hat off, jacket off, shoes off, watch off, computer open. I try to be impressed, but this person is shortly going to be flying the aeroplane, so has no need to hijack it! I know we live in a PC age where nobody may be 'discriminated' against or specially targeted due to race, creed or colour, but if we were. for instance, to profile the 911 hijackers into a social/racial group, we don't have to look too far to realise that it doesn't extend too far. Now I know that doesn't mean an 80 year old grandmother from Iowa is not necessarily a suicidal hijacker, but when you see such security being applied to them and to the pilots of the aeroplanes themselves, then we really may as well give up.

*never use the words 'bomb','gun','hijack', even in jest, within airfield boundary- you are just what they have been waiting for!

[IcePack]

A fltdeck member had to leave his belt behind in KEF the other week "apparently".:eek:

[Avman]

The U.S. has gone completely M A D regarding so-called security. Congratulations Bin Laden, thanks to inept and incompetent morons responsible for combating your threat you have succeeded in your mission beyond your wildest dreams. You don't need to actively terrorise the U.S. anymore - they're doing it all by themselves now!

[WeeWillyWinky]

It is not the US we are talking about.

The British DOT have issued a directive stepping up 'security'. It applies to crew as well and in our case, I believe, 1 in 4 crew members have to endure being thoroughly searched, including shoes through x-ray machines.

I despair at the quite idiotic and pointless procedures we are forced to endure by some brainless pen pusher in the DOT.

[SOPS]

:( I can only but agree. This thing is completley out of control.Lets go really stupid for a second. As a captain, I walk completley naked thru security, have a full body search, cavity search and Xrays. If I wanted too, I can still "hijack" my own aircraft if I felt like it. I feel however, that all of us want to go home to our wife/kids/lover/mistress/whatever/ at the end of the day. At the moment, at the airport I fly out of, as a crew member you are subject to more checks than the pax are!!!!!!!!!!!! This is just mad. We go thru profile checks just to get the job in the first place, and are subject to more checks than anyone else I can think of for the rest of our flying life. Of course the way to "calm it down" is to start refusing to be checked. No check...no pass into terminal...no pass into terminal=no crew in aircraft=no crew in aircraft=no depature. I am not saying lets go for anachy (spelling?), there has to be some checks, but things at the moment are way above a normal limit. And another thought, the cleaners on your aircraft prior to depature, what checks have they gone thru? At certain airports in Europe, I suggest the answer would scare you.!!!

On a final note, today my Purser (who I have flown with for over 10 years) set the metal dector off twice. The secuirity people, after patting her down, then wanted her to go into a cubicle to take off her skirt, At this point I stopped it , and told them not to worry, as the crew would not be boarding the aircraft. A phone call to ops to explain this, produced some very interesting responses. We did in the end, get on the aircraft, with my pursers dignity in tact, and I cant remember being hijacked in flight!!!!!!!!!!

My point to all this....keep a "even strain" and do not let Osama and his mates cause our lives to get out of control, and dont let people with inflated ideas do the same!!!

Rant over;)

[Feather #3]

I'd been staggered that, especially in the USA, my shoes were 'setting off' the alarm, resulting in the inevitable search.

A compatriot appraised me of the fact that wearing R.M. Williams boots with an all-leather sole results in the nails in the heels setting off the machine. He saves the grief by simply putting his shoes thru in LAX & JFK!! :rolleyes:

G'day :)

[RatherBeFlying]

Won't be much longer now.

Crew uniforms will be Speedos and flip-flops.

And the same for the pax:rolleyes:

[ramsrc]

Last time I flew out of Frankfurt a few weeks ago, everyone on flights to the USA and Britain were being subjected to two security checks. Once when going airside initially and then another between the duty free and gate area.

Everyone who was wearing boots (not shoes) was having to remove them at the second check and have them passed through the scanner. I was chatting to the guy who was searching me while I was standing there in my socks, as my boots were being passed through the scanner three times and asked him why I had to take my boots off "Because they're boots" was the reply.

Now admittedly, I am only humble SLF, but why does it only pose a problem if you are flying to the USA or Britain? If it is so important to search footwear, why is it not done when flying to all destinations?

The way things are going, no one will be able to take anything with them when they fly.

[BRISTOLRE]

BAA LGW now have a nice explosives testing machine where a cotton swab is passed around the soles of shoes and put into a machine for a 10 second analysis.

The experience is like sitting down and having your shoes shined.

Velour stool and all!

[Doors to Automatic]

In terms of airport security - its the Americans who are the worst - talk about the most stupid anal people who are completely incapable of using common sense! Its gone completely from one extreme to the other.

The moment the security machine goes off over there one is immediately treated as if one is a terrorist - shoes off, belt off etc etc all delivered in some sort of military boot camp fashion. And there's no form of profiling in the selection of victims either.

At IAD earlier this year it took two hours to get through the most incompetent security procedure I have ever seen. Its no wonder air traffic is struggling to recover if this is how the capital city's main airport handles itself!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[DistantRumble]

Lads ... calm down.


In most cases this is being dealt with by people with some skill and tact and you are hitting the rare cases. Certain airports mentioned above have the toughest scanner detectors in the world


if you are going BA JFK-UK then the when passing through the terminal they are calling for all shoes off - this then causes things to go faster rather than having your shoes rescanned [which happened to me]

Security wins over dignity every time.

[Lefthanddown]

My worst experience as SLF was from Boston to LHR. First time through security control involved shoes off, trowsers down as suit trousers have waist tightening metal tags. I wanted to go for a cigarette which involved going back through control and back into the airport again. This time I used a different security control and none of the above happened...where is the consistency! I went for a few more cigarettes as I waited 2 hrs for the plane and not once was I subsequently checked. I am quite happy for them to have security as it has been a way of life for a very long time at LHR but it is only as strong as the weakest link. Some of the security I have experienced on the 40 plus flights I have taken in the last 6 months has been woefully inadequate.
As for checking flight crew...beyond any comprehension.

[Flightmech]

Recently had a similar experience at MEM. Had to sit on a chair in view of all other pax with my shoes and belt removed whilst they were placed through the x-ray. Luckily the belt was more of an accessory than necessity so my dignity stayed intact!

ramsrc.

Also had to have the double security check at FRA a few weeks ago when positioning FRA-STN. Can't really see the logic when they're both identical and you are in a secure area after the first one?

[Notso Fantastic]

Security is very much bluster- all show and no knickers. Look at the various catering units around the world- off airport, staffed by low paid and very dodgy looking types. How easy to slip something into an empty catering bin going to a particular flight. It will be transported (with maximun security) and loaded on that flight. Will it be checked before departure- apparently not! It is not part of the Cabin Crew checks to inspect 'empty' bins! Who is to say those oven meals contain food and not something else just waiting to be cooked? We have recently had a diversion following discovery of a suspicious package in just such circumstances. Unless Security is sensible targeted so that resoources can be put elsewhere, it will just be what it has become- a self serving empire farce.

[luoto]

How easy to slip something into an empty catering bin going to a particular flight. It will be transported (with maximun security) and loaded on that flight..

It worked for the Passenger on Flight 57 ISTR.

[Shuttleworth]

Distant Rumble - "Security wins over Liberty"
I'm afraid you are as stupid as the people who devise these ridiculous staff searches! You have missed the point!

I believe we should complain and grumble... lets make their lives hell.

We should also expect a more appropriate robust response from BALPA with reference to the **** we are supposed to endure.
( also... every £ wasted checking a pilot is one that should have been spent looking and focussing on the real threat to our safety)

[bugg smasher]

“In terms of airport security - its the Americans who are the worst - talk about the most stupid anal people who are completely incapable of using common sense!”

Doors to Automouth, it was an Englishman, your Mr. Richard Reid, who so kindly pointed out the potential security risks posed by footwear. That notwithstanding, your attempt to define boundaries of blame for the current morass along national lines is pathetic. Either put forward a solution, or put a sock in it mate.

TG, I couldn’t agree more. While(st) I am appalled by the humiliating search procedures that aircrew are occasionally subjected to, I also see the need for it in one form or another. One hundred percent security is not an option, the appetite for risk is up to the individual airport/governmental authorities concerned.

I am still of the opinion that a completely sealed and secure flight-deck door would alleviate the necessity for many of the current security checks, some of which, as mentioned above, are farcical.

[sir]

I once took my bike on holiday, and the guy at MAN wanted to X-ray it.

Thing is, a 21" mountainbike doesn't fit through the machine too well. He tried all kinds of different positions then said "Ah well we'll have to go back to the manual procedure" as if it was something they are taught. He then 'felt up' the nuts (on the bike I mean) and wiggled the saddle a bit and said 'fine' letting me check it in.

I think he did that so as not to lose face. Because if I had wanted to use my bike as a bomb I'd have loaded the frame tubes with semtex. He didn't think to check the tubes though.

[Sensible Garage]

deep cavity search!:)

naw, serious, I'll just politely smile, let them do their usual thing they have to do the whole day after day, and only if they knew what I think about when I smile to them, well, that’s enough for me, catch my drift?;)

[Earthmover]

The best, the very best 'search' I ever saw was my F/O's cheese roll - still sealed in cellophane with the 'sell-by' date, price and label intact - solemnly making its way, in splendid isolation, through the X-ray machine.

Much of the subsequent flight was spent in discussing whether she should eat it or not. I rather alarmed her by suggesting that the radiation might have produced some genetic modifications. She ate it though.

I visit her in the zoo as often as I can ;)

One has to take a sideways look at all this and find the amusing side in order not to 'lose the plot' and start foaming at the mouth.

[sky9]

Surely the real question is why has it taken so long to check shoes? The easiest way to take a Stanley knife blade through security is within the shoe. Whether it should be just pilots or everyone who should be checked is debatable.

The reality is that infiltrating a terrorist into the crew of an aircraft is the easiest way to achieve their ends, especially using cabin staff.

What we really need is proper profiling of staff and passengers, until that happens we are all very vunerable.

[Doors to Automatic]

Bugg Smasher

No offence mate - My comments were not intended to be anti-American (I am one of the least anti-American Brits you will find) just an observation of what I have found on my recent trips which seems to defy all manner of common sense and delivered without the slightest hint of courtesy.

In terms of a solution - they should come over to the UK or Germany and see how its done - and how it has been done for the many years when it used to be possible to waltz airside in the US without any hint of a challenge.

As far as the shoe bomber is concerned - he is no Englishman. As far as I'm concerned you guys should have completely free reign with him. Personally I'd have made sure he was well away from any aircraft and then lit his fuse for him.

[tightcircuit]

How deep is the security screening we are put through when we take up employment? I don't know. I have thought since not long after all the new security measures were put in place, that the next passenger missile will be flown by someone who nomally sits in the flightdeck anyway. He may be being trained right now.

But there is an easier way for Osama. Next time a newly recruited cabin staff member comes through that security door to bring you a nice cup of tea just ponder the point. What security vetting did he/she recieve?

Taking your shoes off at the security check isn't going to stop a determined and resourceful terrorist.

Sleep tight all

[Zipperhead]

This was todays Dr. Fun cartoon.....

http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200212/df20021212.jpg

[innuendo]

Some time ago one of our pilots had his house broken into and among the items stolen were both his uniforms.
I'd say that until crew are identifiable as being who they are supposed to be (Iris scanning etc.) then these security procedures are here to stay.
I don't think anyone has a monopoly on officiousness (!).
As the possesor of a titanium hip joint I have actualy had to doff my drawers, in the privacy of a curtained cubicle, to show the scar as proof to security at CDG.

[bugg smasher]

That may be so, Doors, but I transit UK and German airports monthly, and the security procedures in place are as sadly lacking as they are in the US. If you are in possession of a different story, if you are not threatened by the Bedouin assassins, kindly illuminate.

I belabor a well-worn point when I say that the monstrous rape of that September has made us all more than a little edgy over here, and will continue to loom grim and implausibly frightening in the American psyche for the foreseeable future.

The overkill currently in force is a predictable and very human reaction to trauma of that magnitude. Despite some corrosive and brazenly ill-conceived posts on this forum, we remain your friends in spirit and in deed, as we hope you do. Kindly bear with us, at some point, the Yanks eventually get around to sorting it out.

[Bigears]

Is there a good reason why coins are x-rayed?
'Yes' or 'no' will do as an answer, so as not to give anything away which may be helpful to others.

[zerozero]

Coins set off the metal detector. Of course it depends on how many coins and how high they've turned up the sensitivity on the damn machine (seems to vary from airport to airport).

It's just easier to send all your coins and other metallic objects (pens, ID badge clips, watches, etc) through the x-ray with your coat.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the absurdity of some security procedures. In fact what I despise most is the reactionary nature of the procedures:

Flights hijacked with guns; x-ray/metal detector
Flights hijacked with box cutters; no sharp objects allowed.
Attempted inflight detonation; shoe removal.

I shudder at the next possible hijack attempt. Will the weapon/explosive be hidden in a huge afro/beehive style hair-doo? What about those body cavities? I mean if you're intent on blowing yourself up anyway...

ah nevermind.

My point: I wouldn't mind the airport security hassle so much if I really thought they were looking ahead to prevent terrorism. Sadly they're only closing the barn doors after the horses have all run away.

[Bigears]

Usually I've had to place the coins in a dish with bypasses the metal detector. However, at one particular airport, I was asked to put them through the xray machine. Maybe its just custom to do it that way there :confused:

[Feather #3]

Joke for the day;

While undergoing one of these procedures, one of our F/O's asked the 'examiner' if he'd be allowed to have an axe on board with a blade on one side and a point on the other. The guy had a fit and said that it would be absolutely forbidden!! "Then, why am I sitting within a couple of feet of one for the next 11 hours?" was the reply!

Especially in the US, when one is sealed in behind a door, these crew checks are a public farce!!:rolleyes:

G'day :mad:

[Kingfisher]

I read in US papers that alot of Cabin crew were finding their homes broken into and uniforms AND ID passes were being stolen. I dont mind being searched as flight crew but it would be nice not to be frogmarched to a cubical for strip search infront of all the pax.
At one of our outposts we watched a Fueler being frisked WHILE he was refueling an aircraft.

[GotTheTshirt]

As a frequent traveller I can appreciate the frustrations expressed.
Foir those who say "shut up it all for security" really do not not understand reality.
First of all the shoe guy was a total travesty that only needed half a system to be stopped but didnt.
The biggest mistake is trying to relate this guy to real terrorists.
They are not stupid - look at the technicalities of the Locherbie device to see how technically competent these people are.

You have to realise that after Sept the US govenment HAD to do something so they formed the TSA with $4billion to spend.
How do you show Joe Public his tax dollars at work ??
How have a row of hi tech machines and a whole crowd of people in uniforms and long lines of people seeing people get stripped and searched - boy this is impressive !
The TSA did not automatically take any of the original security people ( and they were not all morons!) but they recruited all new people. How ? an advert on the Internet and an instant exam ? I have 2 friends who did the exam and passed. The critical thing about the questions and exam is that the rating starts with military service, anyone with 20 years in the Military ( even as a cook !) is a cert.

How is it that the US is the only place you have to take a laptop not only out of your brief case but out of is own case. Is it US technology or back to the visibility.

The biggest weapon against this is profiling but that can't be used. If someone was serious about preventing hijacking this should be one of the procedure but no we can't do that yet we can take passenger number 5 because the computer picks it even if it is a 80 year old grannie in a zimmer frame.

The shoe scene of course is commonplace but I went out of the States last week and set the bells off so had to sit and the guy rand the wand all over me and of course the shoes set it off. So remove the shoes and sit while it goes through the machine. All finished got dressed and on to the gate. There I got the lucky number and had the gate search and again the shoes triggered the wand so off with the shoes. I thought this will take a while as the Xray machine was back in the terminal. But no he turned the shoes over and looked at them then gave them back ! Of course he could have had xray vision so perhaps I misjudged the system
:p :p :p

Travelling a couple of days after Set 11 they brought the meal tray with a note on it saying that the knife had been replaced with a plastic one for security reasons. I opened the wrapper and sure enough the knife had been replaced with plastic one - but the metal fork was still there to which the little old lady sitting next to me held it up and said "you could sure do lot of damage with this "!! This is still the situation today:confused: :confused:

Finally, a newspaper joke just after the guy started all the shoe searches, showed a line of people lining up at an airport metal detector all naked and someone saying " Well who told them about exploding underwear "!!:D :D

[Tartan Giant]

I have read all the replies to date, and I am not at all happy that Flight Crew are targeted in such a mindless, senseless, manner for security purposes.

I applaud SOP's stand for his Purser - well done, and a welcome ray of sanity amongst the worst efforts in the name of security.

May I ask those who depart from the UK, perhaps from the two largest London airports, what they think of this formulation if, challenged

1. Seek the Senior Security Manager and ask for a private Interview

2. Have the security person who asked you to remove your shoes to be present

3. Ask the Senior Security Manager to summon the Police, as his subordinate ("the security person") obviously holds grave doubts as to your persona and intentions during flight

3. Ask the Senior Security Manager to take notes and register the answers to some questions you are about to ask of the security person

4. Ask the security person on what grounds does he suspect you are a terrorist - as your ID and licence are obviously fakes; as is the relationship with your crew who had been watching

5. Ask the security person if he is finished with his resume of how he arrived at the point where he asked for your shoes to be removed and is he still under the firm belief you are a terrorist and hiding a lethal weapon

6. Make them BOTH aware that you are not satisfied with the security persons summations, reasons, and presentation of evidence which would cause any other reasonable security person to be so far advanced with his suspicions as to ask for your shoes to be removed

7. Ask the Senior Security Manager if he also believes you are a terrorist......if yes.......ask the same questions as in para 4.

8. Ask the Policeman if he too believes you are a terrorist..........if yes ........................ask the same questions as in para 4.

9. If the overwhelming odds suggest the removal of shoes is the only way to prevent a late departure of your flight, then remove them, under protest as before..............and given that this simple act proved nothing was hidden in or about the shoes, make them note the point and ask for a copy of the Senior Security Manager's written evidence.

10. Tell them ALL you are reporting this incident, noting their names/staff numbers/ and time of interview

11. If the Police are present (take numbers) ask them to take notes too, as you will be bringing a PRIVATE PROSECUTION against the security man who has overstepped his authority and has falsely (as proved) and without just or reasonable cause, invaded and trespassed your Human Rights and the policeman's evidence will be used in furtherance of this PRIVATE PROSECUTION

12. Depart from the interview.......smile on face...........depart on time if you can .....................sue the silly b@stards on return !!!


I'm no lawyer but Article 17 would suggest there is no just cause to excede Statutory Law such as stripping off for the benefit of a random check.

Article 17 – Prohibition of abuse of rights
Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.

Article 5 – Right to liberty and security
Would suggest, "Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person" and I would take that as remaining clothed under reasonable conditions of a security search.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for tight security and stopping those who would try to simulate a BA Captain (is that possible ...ha ha) but I am not in favour of random strip security checks that degrade the entire purpose.

As has been pointed out, should the pilot/s wish to inflict fatal force, taking the security check to the naked extreme would not prove the system worked.

A sensible, logical security search of Flight crew is fine, turning it into a circus is plain stupid.

TG

[boofhead]

I think you will find that you give up all your rights when you go onto airport property. If you don't like it, don't enter.

We hate what is happening to us, but we must comply with the stupidity since we make our living from it all. If we are charged with a crime (Disrespecting the security bighead for example) we lose our jobs, so like it or lump it we must accept the whole thing. But passengers do not, and unfortunately too many passengers have opted out of the system and do not fly any longer. Thus the problems the airlines (and therefore us) are now in.

The big push for enhanced security, especially in the US, is for show only. Anyone who knows how the system works will appreciate that criminals are much smarter and can easily modify their procedures to avoid being stopped or caught. But Joe Sixpack does not know that, and he trusts his government to protect him. What he does not like is the delays, hassles and inconveniences the enhanced security presents, and he is finding it quicker to drive, or simpler not to go at all. In California for example, flying is down but travel by road is way up, showing that people are still going on vacation, or visiting grandma etc, but they are avoiding airplanes.

As well as the hassles, the enhanced security seems to say that flying is dangerous. If the government feels it necessary to search the ex-vice president of the United States, or your grandmother, or your 5 year old daughter, then there must be a definite risk. Better not to be exposed to that risk!

Yet on a day-to-day basis, Sep 11 was an aberration, and the big dangers in flying are still pilot error. The chances of being hijacked are so small as to be totally insignificant, as is the danger of a checked in bag going boom. I read that in the US some 98,000 people die every year because of medical errors, yet doctors don't have to take off their shoes before operating.

Enhanced security was needed, for sure, but this in-your-face stupidity is totally counter-productive and every one of us should be calling for a change.

[icemanalgeria]

I think we all agree that something had to be done after 911, But it seems no thought has gone into what should have been done.

In stead the situation is worse.

Examples.

MIA - for a flight in bound to MIA with a one hour turnaround with the same crew, We must shut everything down, Complete immigration forms and go through customs with all our bags.

But we don't want to enter the USA we just want a quick turnaround.

This system means more people are going from the terminal,diluting the efforts of their security systems.

And even worse, Our aircraft is left without our own staff on board to protect against attack. (it's more likely that a person not flying on board would plant a bomb rather that ground staff who will not be flying with us).

Then there are the Armed flightdeck doors, Very secure and locked.

What happens if we have pilot incapacitation during takeoff climb or descent landing. The doors locked and no one can gain entry.

Then there is the fact that our wife's son's etc can not fly on our flight deck, Even though we have known them for years, However the DOT want us to allow a complete stranger form the CAA to be able to join us on the flight deck just because he has an ID, Which maybe false.

Well he has a big shock coming if he attempt's to take a ride on my flight.

Because unless he can convince me that it a safer option taking him than taking my wife he's off.

If we all kick them off then maybe they will come to there senses and allow us to decide who we carry on the flight deck and not them.

[Otterman]

I hope we are going through a transition phase at the moment. In the States they are talking about pre-clearance for frequent fliers. I hope that we as aircrew (at least cockpit crew) can become part of this system. I believe it undermines the confidence of our passengers when they see the bloke, who will shortly be flying them a third of the way across the world, being treated as a suspect by security. IF the TSA feels we are an imminent threat I would like to see the aircrew being processed out of view from the passengers. At a number of airports in Europe this is already the case. One item that is on my list; the licenses that we all carry. Don’t know about the USA anymore, but the JAA version has no security features (not even a picture). Combining this with some sort of biometric check could add a more substantial layer and speed up the process.

There will always be holes in any system that we can think of, the criminals will find them if it is their intend. At my airline we are having huge problems with passengers from certain regions transporting drug internally. Usually by swallowing, but I was amazed to see a sample of what a female passenger had stuffed inside her private parts, just as an example.

The passengers have to be made aware that he/she has a central role to play in these scenarios. The numbers will always be in the favor of the passengers/crew when compared to the number of terrorists. It is the final line of defense if needed. Now I feel that the governments and the industry are trying to put almost all the emphasis on the procedures happening on the ground. But we need to be more forthright and get across to the paying public that they do carry a direct responsibility for their own safety while they are in our care. There is an old saying: “First time shame on You, second time shame on Me”. If there is a repeat of 09-11 it is not only the industry that missed some lessons, but also the paying public who failed in its duty to itself.

In the meantime I will sit in my fortress up front, having my food and drink handed to me like I am Hannibal Lector, wishing for some common sense to return. Santa please! It is the only thing on my list this year.

Regards, O.

[BYlady]

As a cabin crew member employed by a well known charter airline, we were recently going through security at SFB where all crew members had to take off their shoes and place them on to the X-ray machine (11 crew in total). Standing behind us waiting to go through security were 328 of our passengers - amazingly none of them had to take off their shoes (no matter what they were wearing). I don't find taking my shoes off a problem, but surely things should be standardised across the board - passengers should be subjected to the same security measures as what crew are. What sort of impression is this giving to our SLF when all the crew are heavily checked and monitored, and they can just "breeze" through?

[whatshouldiuse]

First of all, people in Phoenix were routinely asked to remove their boots prior to September11th. however, when you state that:

"If there is a repeat of 09-11 it is not only the industry that missed some lessons, but the paying public who failed in its duty to itself".


What exactly does that mean as I live in New York?

Don't pass the blame which is an easy thing to do. All the people around here want to know is when it willl be quciker to take a plane as opposed to a train? Maybe you could help with that answer. Or did i fail my duty that day?

All I know is I saw the 2nd plane come into the tower...(everybody in NY thought the 1st towwer had caught fire) and then I puked. Sorry for the graphic description, but at that point. i knew reality had struck.

Still not sure what "the paying public who failed in its duty to itself"means but I'm sure you do.


Andy

[Otterman]

Whatshouldiuse:

The rules changed on 09-11. We as an industry had not taken a proper account that there is a group of people who are willing to kill themselves, and murder uncounted thousands in order to proof some vague point, using an airplane as a weapon. Passengers have to realize that when a similar situation occurs, the rules have changed. It is not a matter of the hijackings of the 70’s. These lasted a number of days, got lots of press, and the world moved on. Now the airplane has become the weapon. Passengers have a direct responsibility for their own lives. They and the crew are the last line of defense. I would like to see passengers at least give some thought about this, and what they are willing to do if they are ever confronted with a hijacking. No criticism is implied pre 09-11. But putting all the emphasis on the government and industry, without some self-reflection is not the way to go.

[PaperTiger]

TG I believe any court would hold that you are being searched voluntarily. If you choose not to consent to such a search, you are quite free to turn around and leave the airport.

You might make a case for restraint of trade, but the lawyers would be the only ones to benefit I suspect.

[Piltdown Man]

Marvellous security checking throughout the World, excellent stuff. All performed by highly skilled and motivated staff who never miss an angle (or crevice). But do they ever ask the obvious question of the wearer of swish pilot's uniform and newly printed homemade pass? "Is this person meant to be here?"

[Boss Raptor]

I recently went through this shoes fiasco in LAX, everyone's shoes setting off the machine...huge queues...shoes through the x-ray machine etc...where as at LHR a wave of the detector wand over the soles was considered quite sufficient...


My shoes are middle of the range all leather soled and resoled with a token 3 small tacks in the toe end and metal lace eyelets...setting off the machine no doubt...

The security 'moron' asked me why my soles had tacks in them...he seemed surprised at the explanation of being resoled...clearly because a peasant like him has not come across quality shoes!

PS. he was clearly an immigrant with an unintelligible accent and looks that would certainly raise concern as to his origins and security risk...had he not been an airport employee!!

[paulo]

They are looking for terrorists, not genuine flight crew.

The idea that a uniform and ID makes the matter clear is incredibly naive.

[PaperTiger]

surprised at the explanation of being resoled
LOL Boss, one of the things I noticed moving across the pond many years ago was the absence of real cobblers (shops that is). Plenty of quickie ladies' heel repairers, but the concept of replacing soles on men's shoes ? Nah, just buy another pair, sir.

[Bear 555]

Here in Saudi, I have both ends of the spectrum to deal with. On one day, it is shoes off, belt off, a 'good frisking' and everything back through the machine. Next day - different shift on duty - and they are hardly interested.

Perhaps this is the issue?

Bear 555

[luoto]

Here in Saudi, I have both ends of the spectrum to deal with. On one day, it is shoes off, belt off, a 'good frisking' and everything back through the machine. Next day - different shift on duty - and they are hardly interested.

Dear Mr Bear. I must not use PPRUNE so early in the morning after waking up.. and maybe clean my glasses.. I read it as you got a 'good fisting' and wondered just how liberated certain Middle Easten states have become:0

In Finland they even ****** about with the bands now on internal flights -and followed the same knee-jerk reactions post-September 11. However, not every airport has followed the directives with gusto.

[Boss Raptor]

Good security implementation should have 2 aims;

1. to achieve the desired screening to counter the threat in a sensible and efficient manner

2. to minimise the economic impact and inconvenience of such screening to both the travelling passenger and operator alike

At the moment in my opinion we do not have 'good security'...

So how long before operators warn passengers 'dont wear re-soled shoes, dont wear belts, dont wear a watch, dont carry a laptop, dont carry anything metal etc. etc. as this will cause inconvenience and delays at security'...why dont we just all go naked or give up flying altogether!

As a frequent traveller I have seen how this security is perceived as very frightening and threatening by some passengers, particularly the elderly...in several cases I have had to reassure elderly passengers in the security queue as they genuinely get very stressed and very upset at the whole process...air travel is a very stressful experience for many people and they are thinking twice now about travelling not because of the terrorist threat but because of the grief they have to endure taking the flight...this industry has enough problems at the moment without losing yet more passengers in this way...

I am all for security but it doesn't have to be or shouldn't have to be like this...

[Bear 555]

Boss Raptor - Couldn't agree with you more. But it does smack of common sense. I advise co-workers, subcontractors and anyone flying here to consider what may get them hassled at the security checks and sort it out before getting to the airport. Very difficult to explain away a laptop with a flat battery when they want to see the thing working and the adaptors are in the hold baggage already...

We do have an additional check at most airports here before you even get to the check-in desk!

Luoto - no, not yet. Sometimes I do wonder though...

Bear 555

[John Barnes]

There is a sort of answer to the stupidity of the form of security checks that are carried out on operating crewmembers, trying to get to their Aircraft. There however are a few minimum requirements to achieve this goal.
a) You need to work for a carrier that flies a lot of passengers and finds it important to depart on time.
b) You should be on a trip that is scheduled to maximum duty time, and where a delay might result in the crew running out of duty, this all for the maximum effect of the following actions.
Whenever you are confronted or requested to go through a search where they take off your shoes and confiscate the nail clippers you patiently follow the routine.
As soon as you are at the gate and ready to board you request for the duty safety supervisor at that airport (LAX is perfect!!!) and ask him to come to the gate. When he shows up ( and believe me he will!) you ask him to return to you your nail clipper ( or any other thing that was taken) knowing that he will then tell you that it is against the regulations to have such an object on board of the aircraft.
You then invite him to the flight deck and tell him that for you to be in compliance with these regulations he has to remove the crash axe from the aircraft. This again will be no problem for the safety expert and he will be happy to take the axe. ( After initially being shocked to see such a vicious weapon in reach of a loony pilot!)
Now you consult your MEL and will very soon find out that without a crash axe there is no flying unless… you can get dispensation from the relevant aviation authorities and get a waiver. Now here is the beauty because have you ever tried to get a waiver at 2220 lt at any airport in the world when the civil servants are already on one ear.
You now have a very nervous station manager, 320 pissed of passengers and a flight that goes nowhere, a crew running out of duty and no standby to be found. I take it that the next time you go through security the company has done everything in its power to get you through with the minimum of discomfort.
:D

[JesterYHZ]

Had to add my 2 cents worth in here...As an airline mechanic, part of my job involves travelling to remote airports to effect repairs on our A/C that had the nerve to break, away from home. In the past (Pre9-11) we would leave the hangar, drive up to the departing A/C, throw our gear on board, and meet the gate agent at the door of the A/C, where they would have our boarding passes. This minimized the waiting time for Pax & crew, as often they were holding the flight for us. ( We usually have less than 1/2 hr to gather parts, manuals, tools etc to make the flight). Now ( Post 9-11) we are required to go through security before boarding. At some airports, this process can take up to 45 mins.

Here's the scenario: We come from a secured area (the ramp), go into an un-secured area (the terminal), just so we can go through security to procede to the secured area we just left !!!:rolleyes:

P.S. We still throw our gear on board before we go into the terminal.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see the Keystone Kops type of thing going on here???


And another thing...it seems now that our Canada-wide security pass isn't Canada -wide anymore. Its only good at the issuing airport. Kinda makes ya wonder why I filled out those endless security clearance forms, and finger printing.:confused:

[WHBM]

Different stations with conflicting security requirements annoy me.

Flight from UK to Ireland and return last week.

UK departure airport: "What are you doing taking your laptop out of its bag here. Put it back. Hurry up, you're holding everyone else up."

Irish airport on return: "Why haven't you taken your laptop out of its bag for me to check? Hurry up, you're holding everyone else up."

Frequent SLF.

[steamchicken]

SLfing through STN a few weeks back, it was the zip of my Schott jacket the machine didn't like...and that was after it had a fit about my belt buckle!

[Max Continuous]

I quite often SLF to Europe from LHR & LGW as a sim tre and last week got the "shoes off" treatment at the second security check just before boarding. Quite humiliating at the time, belittling really. Some of the posts above say it's all in the name of security, sacrifice your dignity to the cause etc. Well, it's the final straw for me. The general unnecessary hassle in today's flying environment, not just security but all of its unpleasantness means that the crews travelling with me for training are often arriving at the sim tired and stressed before they even begin. I'm going to seriously look at going by rail next time through the chunnel. I'm amazed that anybody flies at all these days unless it's absolutely necessary. And of course it's not just aviation security. Officialdom everywhere has started to become just a little bit frightening in the UK. Do you respect the police any more? Whose side are they on? Tried making a joke to a traffic warden recently? Planning regulators, hygiene inspectors, adoption agencies, CSA - the list is endless. All these people are paid for by us!

JB - I suspect that, in the end some sort of direct action along the lines you suggest is going to be the answer if passenger profiling is considered politically unacceptable. The first few people to do it are probably going to lose their jobs - but more than one or two of us are getting close to the stage where we don't care any more and I suppose it's us who are going to have to make the stand...

[John Barnes]

I am at the point, with three basechecks to go, that I don't give a F*** if they fire me or not. I realise that this is easier said for me than for a young guy with mortgage, and a young family at the beginning of his carreer. Therefor it should be guys like us, who have achieved some sort of financial security to carry the candle. I have done it and it is unbelievable how many people suddenly get involved. The chief of airport security in one of the places was totally unaware of the inconsistency of the policies and changed them there and then in such a way that flightcrew was checked only for their ID and crossed off against the GD. This only happened after a long long delay with lots of phonecalls up and down the line. I just stuck to one rule like a broken record" Sorry sir your policy says that no sharp objects longer than 4 inches in any way or form are allowed in the aircraft, and I don't want to break your rule, so please take the crash axe off!" The rest unfolds itself:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tripower455]

It all makes perfect sense if you look at it the way that the powers that be do.........

What is the # priority in an elected official's mind?

To get RE elected.

How does one get re elected?

By giving the appearance of DOING something beneficial for his/her constituents.

What better way to male it look like you are doing something about terrorism than by putting on a huge show for the public?

By giving the supporting roles in the Greatest Security Show on Earth to pilots and flight attendants, you are reinforcing the illusion to the public by having an authority figure submitting to the same intrusive procedures that they get.

It is pretty surreal when not 15 minutes after standing at the checkpoint in my socks, (watching the mensa folks at security trying to determine the lethality of my comm headset), I see the cleaning woman (who doesn't speak a lick of english) cutting up cardboard boxes in the crew lounge, with (you guessed it!) a BOX CUTTER!

At least I can't hijack my OWN plane! :rolleyes:

[Loose rivets]

I wear cheap shoes. I know, I'm a pilot.... or at least I was until just after 9/11,.... and a pilot should be able to afford good shoes. I could when I was a young F/O, but now it has to be good old Jet A1-proof plastic soles that will also stand up to waddling in de-icing fluid. The problem is that they had a reinforcing sprung-steel rod running 70% of the sole length!!

I grew so tired of taking these off for the brown-shirts, that I did some surgery on the poor old Clarke's specials and removed the offending blades. It seems that many of the modern molded sole have this spring built in. A total impasse.

In a way it's our fault!!! Twenty years ago I walked out of my flight deck, slipped on a sports jacket and sat in the back waiting to be flown home. Huh!.. " the flight is being delayed because of you Capt. XXX" (Capt. XXX is not my real name) To cut an exceedingly boring story short, I had to walk back to the office block door, nod at security, climb stairs, descend stairs, walk down the road where common people walk, enter the terminal building, find my check-out, go through "security", board the aircraft with every one glaring at me, and sit in the seat that had my flight bag over it. (No, I couldn't be fagged to carry it round the circuit with me.) On the way home, a company brown-nose explained to me that my family might be held hostage and this is why I now had to be checked. Mmmm..... so why couldn't I be vulnerable when I was the Captain? What the **** difference did my nice jacket make?? Why after twenty years, is this cr** is this still going on?

We can't make protests that simply hurt our own outfits / investors, but now is the time for some metered control over this madness. They should be obliged to explain who they think that we going to attack with 3 tin-tacks or a spring from a cheap shoe? We all know how barmy it is, why has it taken 1/4 of a century to start any serious rumbles?

[Mister Geezer]

I was SLF out of LGW a few weeks ago after spending the day with the CAA at the Belgrano (Aviation House) :p mmmm.fun! Anyway, on my way home my bag was picked out for a search. The security chap opened it and just checked my mobile phone and a calculator and then sent me off on my merry way. My bag was full of books and folders (all containing stuff which was aviation related) and none of it was touched. A Performance book must have been obvious to the chap who was looking at my bag since it was the first thing that he saw when he opened my bag.

If I worked in security then I would be keen to search someone who was in normal clothes travelling as pax with a bag which is full of aviation related material. Obviously in my case the reverse applied but I was very puzzled as to why. Surely he did not let me off on the assumption that I was a pilot?

[vikingwill]

I know it's more of the same, but having 2 luggage & body searches at: Gatwick, 3, yes, 3 at Cincinnati and a further 3 at Atlanta en-route to Albany (including, in the US having an inductance rod pushed down the front of your trousers, by someone clearly not a proctologist or urologist) in full public view, with the last 2 in secure areas smacks of a certain over-enthusiasm. Of course to possess a single carrier ticket - presumably meant that the "search him" computer record being carried over probably contributed. So for me, air travel has become too much hassle. I've replaced nearly three quarters of my business trips with videoconference. It may be a cr*p way of interacting, but it beats the humiliation of the inductance rod.

And you wonder why the revenues of the flag carriers is in free-fall. Honestly folks, what we need here is a global review of security and procedures conducted by specialists in the field of aviation, military and counter-terrorism and decidedly light in burocrats and politicians.:(

[whatshouldiuse]

All;

I'm SLF as they like to say on PPRUNE. I had boot and shoe searches in PHX long before September 11th. Don't take it personally !!

With the proliferation of the theft of Airline Crew's Outfits over the past couple of months in the New York region, I feel it is an absolute must that EVERYBODY be screened at security. No if's ands or buts.

How would you feel if somebody with your uniform and name tag killed 200+ people? Not real great, I'd imagine.

So once again, don't take this overbearing and overzeaalous security the wrong way. One day, it might save your life as well as mine.

Andy

[Tripower455]

With the proliferation of the theft of Airline Crew's Outfits over the past couple of months in the New York region, I feel it is an absolute must that EVERYBODY be screened at security. No if's ands or buts.


It seems that the TSA feels the same way, but there are a lot of "buts".......

Nearly every worker at almost every airport in the US is NOT subject to any screening at all. In fact, the only ones that are required to be screened at work are pilots and flight attendants.

Do you think it would be easier for a potential hijacker to pose as a pilot, bluff his way into the cockpit, start, push back, taxi and fly the aircraft into a building OR get an entry level job with a contract cleaning company/provisioner, bring a weapon to work in his lunch bag, place it under the lav trash bag and board the flight as a passenger later on, or have a partner do the same. The person boarding as a passenger can get every cavity searched by the TSA, and still have a weapon at his disposal.

The guy with the pilot uniform doesn't need a weapon, since, if he was able to get the airplane in the air, he ALREADY has control of it.

[boofhead]

The huge Xray machines appearing at the airports in the US are clogging the public areas and forcing people to congregate there while waiting for their bags to go through, many of which are being subsequently hand-searched as well. This is, as well as being a major inconvenience, a terrorist's delight; what a target. And if the screener should find an explosive, and inadvertently set it off during his rummaging around, the toll in dead and injured will be huge. This is enhanced security?
What I want to know is, who gets the money out of this? it is obviously not set up for our safety, so there must be another reason for it all. Usually it is money or power, or both. So where does the kickback go?
And can anyone enlighten me as to the history of checked baggage being used to commit crimes on airplanes? Maybe over the last 10 or 20 years? I can only think of one, and it hardly seems a valid reason for this serious over-kill, especially as it is another nail in the coffin of the airlines.
What's next? I heard that the airlines will be introducing, at government insistence, a series of questions during check-in to find out if the passenger is a security threat, such as "where did you get the money to buy this ticket?" As well as the delays this would cause (if true), I know it would put me off flying, and my response would be sure to have me denied boarding.
It is really sad to see aviation being systematically destroyed, and even sadder to see the way most people acquiesce in all this foolery. Are we really so blind, or so afraid?

[nojacketsrequired]

As I passed through the crew security check last week I set off the bleep on the walkthrough frame.....was I the one they were looking for?!!.

'A very polite can I check your bag?'..when finshed a thank you from the security person....very civil I thought....then next the security agent who by looking had profiled me and had made the decision I was Bin Ladens cabin crew contact determined to help bring his own aircraft down in the mecca(excuse the pun):D of Staines.

A personal somewhat close body search followed....still nothing
to get me for.....the next words uttered where 'sole check'....
I replied 'Bobby Brown,Luther Vandross,Barry White' :D :D,
I could'nt resist and I found it funny and it was my way of getting round the new era we live in as aviators.
As for the guard he was doing the job he's been directed to do by our over reactionary authorities and had to do it another hundred times that day.

I do not like these checks they have gone too far I have been screened and had an airport ID for 18 years.I have come across some of the best humour from all areas of airline people and hope even in these bad times that this remains with us and does not become forbidden by the idiots in Whitehall.

Next time you pass through crew security look out for the signs,
'you are now entering a no smiling zone'. :D :D ;)

NJR ('Fly To Serve' no longer on the tail but still in the heart)

[nwun]

There's a movie just out called "Bowling for Columbine". Very interesting and it gives a great insight into Americas' insecurity. It has great humour but it is basically a documentary.

[Kaptin M]

That the loonies are now being given overall charge of the asylum appears to be a worldwide "phenomenom".
In the part of the world in which I am employed (Asia), operating, dead-heading, and passengering crew are subjected to the same "security checks" as the SLF's.

It appears that these (in the main) unskilled, unthinking uniformed goons are slowly beginning to RULE the airline - something I'll BET the "managers" responsible for them never would initially have thought remotely possible.
Depending upon how quickly (or otherwise) their neurons are interacting, the check-in progress of an entire flight can be expedited or slowed right down to a crawl, as was the case I witnessed today.
3 x-ray machines available, but only ONE in operation, surrounded by 5 "goons", who processed the bags at a rate that caused the passengers from several flight to be stretched in a Conga line snaking for about a 1/4 of the terminal, as the "security guards" stood and talked amongsst themselves.

The walk-through metal detector check is no less a FARCE. Passengers having their nail clippers, and nail files confiscated (stolen!) to prevent them from being taken on board, whilst guys with 1 metre chain "accessories" hanging from their belt are given the thumbs up.
Scissors with blades of 3cms or more immediately fall into the "potential hijacker/terrorist" weapon category, but the 20cm ceramic knife concealed in a jacket escapes detection.

Wanna hold an airline to ransom? Start an aviation "security" business.
You could "make 'em, or break 'em" within the first 12 months!

[Airbubba]

Another round in pilots vs. screeners:
______________________________________________


Posted on Tue, Dec. 31, 2002

Comair pilot arrested for carrying knife in carryon bag
Associated Press

HARRISBURG, Pa. - A Comair pilot was charged with disorderly conduct after federal airport screeners found a knife in his carryon bag, police said.

Capt. Rickey L. Mayle initially denied he was carrying a knife, which was detected Sunday by an X-ray at Harrisburg International Airport before Mayle was to board a flight to Atlanta, police said.

A screener searched the bag and found the knife with a 3-inch serrated blade.

Mayle, 46, later said the knife had been in his bag since September, and he had forgotten about it, police said.

The FBI was investigating the incident, officials said.

The early morning flight was delayed more than 1 1/2 hours until another pilot could be found, Comair spokesman Nick Miller said.

Mayle was released without bail pending a preliminary hearing, police said. He did not return a telephone message left at his home Tuesday.

[Loose rivets]

What ever happened to the issuing of a (mostly) enclosed blade harness knife? I have not flown without my Swiss army knife beside me for the last thirty years...my talisman. ...don't like the thought of being strapped to a load of fuel-soaked wreckage at the best of times, but I'd very much like to have some means of cutting the webbing if the buckle has broken or pulled out of reach.

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

Foolishly pitched up for a UK internal flight with Ryan clutching my BAA Airside ID complete with sexy "captain" photo.They require "photo ID"-Fair enough.Point blank refused boarding as on page 23 of the T&C's it clearly states that only a passport,picture driving licence,National ID Card or STUDENT ID are acceptable forms of identification.Yep,the student ID you faked when you were 17 to get into pubs.
Left wife and baby in tears at check in,drove like a loony to get home for passport,pitched up for next flight to have same staff glance for a microsecond at said document-paid hefty "handling fee" and got on next flight.
Peed off? Just a bit.Who needs common sennse when you've got "policy"??

[lost soul]

How bloody ridiculous! I have checked in as a passenger(using my BAA crew ID) many times on GO(eJ) and Ryanair flights and NEVER had any problem! Guess some handling agent didn't get what they wanted for Christmas!! My sympathies go out to you and your family.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Loose rivets

Several years ago I purchased a device that could be used to crack the windows in you car in the event of an accident. On the opposite end of this “hammer” was a concealed blade to cut your lap belt. The blade was semi concealed and could not be used to cut anyone but was sharp enough to cut the belt. I purchased this device in Switzerland. I feel that such a device at least the cutter should be standard equipment in the cockpit of commercial aircraft. I do not believe you could get it through security even in Switzerland as the hammer had pointed surfaces to break the auto glass and could be used as a weapon.

:cool:

[russellackland]

I was a security instructor for the TSA for 7 months! (Airport security @ the checkpoint and baggage checking too.) These TSA folks have "great" power and the ability to abuse it. The supervisors are the ones who are the ones to blame when problems happen (and unfortuneatly they are the ones the normal person asks for!). Although an inexperienced group, they have great training(biased opinion.) The general concept of the walk-through metal detector is "mass" screening of persons, while allowing maximum"flow." No matter the 'sensitivity level', if an alarm occurs, you will go to further screening, ie. hand wand metal detector. All items will go through the xray machine whenever the set off an "alarm." The best way to get through security is to divest or remove all metallic items and present them for Xray. The xray operator will be able to determine the identity of all items passed through the xray machine.

In some airports, the metal "shanks" in dress shoes will set off the metal detector and will require "further" screening of persons. Therefore, in some airports, screeners have been asking passengers (and pilots) to remove their shoes before passing through the walk through metal detector.

As a previous instructor I absolutley REFUSE to remove my shoes before the walk through metal detector; No Dirty Socks for me. I usually walk through with no problems with my non-metallic shoes and waste less of their/and my time. When challenged about removing my shoes I respond..." I will be happy to go through further handwand metallic screening if I set off the walk-through metal detector with my shoes on!" Those are the rules and are generally respected! Of course, to the detriment of the USA's TSA, there are still individual airport procedures out there. If I am inspected after the walk-through metal detector, ,my shoes will almost always go through the xray machine (as they are required to, with an alarm, when the xray is available.) If I am aware that my shoes have metal "shanks" in them; well i could take them off before the metal detector if I am in a hurry and have them xrayed along with my other carry-on items. If not in a hurry.................hand wanding...removing belt...shoes...coat...and being subject to physical body searches is my alternate choice. Anything for effective yet efficient search procedures.

good flying (after security)

russ

[Pax Vobiscum]

As nwun has already drawn attention to Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine", take a look at Stupid White Men (http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/stupidwhitemen/onlinechapters/part01.php). I don't agree with everything Michael Moore says, but the ability freely to carry on lighters while banning nail clippers does seem illogical.

[Tan]

Hmm, a very thought provoking article by Michael Moore.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least to discover what he has written is true...

[Boss Raptor]

From what I have seen on my travels over the last year and the attitude/behaviour of some of these security checkers...

It can only be a matter of time before a passenger or staff member files a charge of 'Assault' or similar against a member of security staff...in conjuction with the appropriate 'Mental Distress' etc. civil claims...

Whether the case is proven or not this will no doubt highlight the issue and hopefully bring the whole situation back into line and reality!

[bluecrane]

Questions:

1. If we lock the pilots in the flight deck behind a bulletproof door, we should make sure that they are really the pilots
2. So we have to identify them = good ID
3. The Licence should be the ID. Design a better licence
4. If we can identify them as air carrier pilots, we do not need to search/screen them.

ICAO needs to set a new standard for pilots licenses, so that the licence is an international airport ID as well.

Let us settle on a worldwide action day (july4th, 2003?) where pilots will refuse to be screened. The discussions will follow, and possible action.

What do you think?

[Lu Zuckerman]

Let us settle on a worldwide action day (July 4th, 2003) where pilots will refuse to be screened. The discussions will follow, and possible action.

How much cooperation can you expect from pilots in the UK on July 4th?

:D

[kaikohe76]

The overall strength of the security and screening system at various airports, is only as safe and secure as the weakest link in the chain.
As I understand, at many UK Airports anyway and a large one in the North West in particular, it is only Passengers, Aircrew and some staff who are subject to positive seceening. I understand that members of the Security staff themselves, Police, Customs, Airport Executives to name but few, are in fact NOT subject to any security sereening and positive checks at all. Perhaps some of these elevated groups consider they are so important that they should be immune from security checking.
If this is the case and I would appreciate confirmation or not of this, the whole system is surely virtually worthless.
I fully accept the need for sensible and thorough security of ALL persons, but excluding some groups for whatever reason makes a mockery of all our efforts to promote airviation safety for everybody.

[Tan]

Kaikohe76

What your post is referring to be pretty standard throughout the world, some airports are worse than others.

That is one of the reasons that flight crews are objecting to the screening that they have to endure. There are so many big holes in the security system that you could drive a truck thru them.

The only way that an airport can have true security is to lock it down...So why are our political masters wasting valuable resources on such a farce? Because the traveling public are like cattle that chose to believe in the window dressing.

The reality is that there is no protection against people willing to give up their lives for a political cause.

[Check 6]

Like most pilots, I also at times are outraged at how we are treated by security personnel and procedures.

However, flying as an SLF, on 21 December I cleared Customs and Immigration at KSTL (St. Louis Intl.). All personnel were very pleasant, and in the Christmas spirit.

I then had to process through a TSA security checkpoint. Without exception, all personnel were polite, friendly, professional, and also in the Christmas spirit.

On 3 January I departed KSMF (Sacramento) en route to Italy. Again, the TSA personnel were polite, friendly, and professional.

:)

[Capt.Slackbladder]

Havn't had a chance to read all the posts so apologies for any repetition but two examples from both sides of the Atlantic of the pathetic situation regarding security.

Sanford: Whole crew made to take their shoes off but in the time it took for us to be cleared about 100 pasengers were quite happily cleared through with only the usual x-ray on handbaggage!

Birmingham: Called out from Standby and told to get to a/c a.s.a.p. No problem, or so I thought, until I arrived at security as the rest of the crew were on board, (as were the pax) security wouldn't let me through as I was on my own! Licence check, passport check but they wanted to see my crew signing- in sheet. Having made my way direct to the terminal without going to the office I didn't have a signing-in sheet so they wouldn't let me through! However, it was amazing how fast they moved, and changed their minds, when I took out my mobile and asked them to explain to my ops. why the flight would miss it's slot, 220 pax would be delayed and the programme would be off schedule for the rest of the day!

[rickardo]

Hi all, I understand from a Man in the Ministry' that on 911 there were 'others' destinded for other places flown by extremely suspect 'American' crews who had fooled the US system which is why we are all suspects. I am just as pi****d off as the next with the level of scrutiny we are subjected to but just take a step back and look who is searching you and remember that if giving you a hard time for 5 minutes is all they look forward too be thankful we spend then next 5 hours enjoying the bright sunshine!! I absolutely hate it but I just hold my breath bite my tongue/lip and everything else and let the halfwit do his/her job.

[boofhead]

1. Why is it that in the rest of the world (maybe except for Aus, which is frantically trying to catch up to the US) where normal security procedures are used, there are not more incidents of hijackings or attempted hijackings and bombings using baggage then? If the US is right, only they can be safe and the rest of the world must be unsafe. Obviously this is not true.

2. How many times has airport security actually stopped a terrorist? The answer is easy: NEVER! If they ever did, you would see them crowing about it, and then maybe there would be some justification for the bs.

3. The last three hijackings that have been reported were carried out (only one successfully) with the use of a bottle of petrol (failed attempt), a pocket knife (failed), a TV remote control (successful!) and an Asthma inhaler (failed). If I was working as an airport security clown I would hang my head in shame, since this shows how useless we all are. But never mind, I can always stick it to the next pasenger or crew (I know to leave the baggage handlers, catering, cleaners, mechanics and so on alone, since obviously those wonderful people would never act in a criminal manner. Only passengers and crew are truly evil.). The aim is to do to all the airlines what we have just done to USAIR and UA. Only then will we have perfect security, when nobody is willing to put up with the crap any longer and nobody flies.

[Tan]

boofhead

I couldn't agree more...:)

[B Sousa]

Check 6
It was obviously your grandfatherly look and your charm. Anyway TSA in SMF is mainly comprised of the unemployed from Rio linda, CA.
I left LAS in October and they were also very courteous and went through every dam thing I had, a couple of them twice. Identified an Antenna on my Sportys Transceiver as a Corkscrew.........So much for training.....
P.S. Contract comes out in march and things remain the same here..........Life is good at the Chateau Rod.

[Check 6]

Went through the full security in the terminal today at BGN as crew. When I made it to the X-ray, they asked if I had any prohibited items. I admitted that I had a large Swiss Army knive in my flight bag.

The lady said OK, and my bag went into X-ray. The officer identified it on the X-ray. The lady then checked with her supervisor who authorized me to keep my knive because I was crew.

Common sense for once.

Bert, it must be my charm and good looks.

:)

[Danny]

I have noted that in the US the TSA security checkers appear to be mostly middle aged and like their INS counterparts, have had their sense of humour glands surgically removed. :p Whilst there is nothing wrong with wishing to appear businesslike and official, there does seem to be something 'missing' from these peoples personalities. In the UK they are also mostly 'older' but they are not quite as 'robotic' as in the US.

In Israel, all the security staff are young, mostly in their mid to late twenties, having completed national service in the military, well educated, and with enough 'nounce' to realise the difference between the requirements to check an operating crew, an obviously elderly person or a child. They are highly trained in 'profiling' and therefore are many times more efficient than the current joke we see at most airports where indiscriminate searching takes place ONLY AFTER the person has checked in.

Until the authorities (read publicity hungry governement officials and politicians) realise that security is more than cosmetic and requires much more money than they are prepared raise, then we are going to continue to see the ridiculous and often farcical incidents as reported here and elsewhere.

[javelin]

Wow, American Airlines have scored well this time. I checked in at MCO and was told to leave my case unlocked just in case the TSA wanted to check after screening. Then after I got my boarding pass, they tell me to leave my bag by the waiting line of checking in passengers - unsupervised and unattended ! Now I suggested that this might not be good practise but was rebuked. I locked my case, it was broken into by the TSA and they left me a note telling me so afterwards....... Ah progress at last towards safety :confused:

[Max Angle]

Pathetic. Despite everything that has happened and after all the efforts to make things more secure so many staff, some quite senior, still seem to have no idea whatsoever what security is all about.

Oh well, as long as my Swiss army knife is left at home, and my mother can't sit on the jump seat everything will be OK.

[faq]

What Javelin didn't say was the case was full of Christensen Eagle bits

[McD]

I find your experience at MCO strange, javelin, having just checked bags there twice recently. (Both times, the bags were taken immediately to screening, so they were never out of direct human contact. One time, the agent even said that I was welcome to wait - at a distance, but I could at least watch - until the bags had completed screening, if I desired.)

However, if it happened as you said (I'm not implying it didn't), and if the bags truly weren't being supervised/monitored by someone until their screening, I'll have a word with the agents next time I'm through there (next week). I'll tell them of your experience, and find out why they would have asked you to leave your bags unattended (when that is clearly not a good thing!). I'll let you know, either by PM or by post to this forum, what they said.

[18-Wheeler]

I went through the screening at Dubai a couple of days ago, and I eventually had to take my shoes off.
F**king ridiculous! I don't know what was to be done if the thing still went off, I was running out of apparel to remove.
Don't the security people there have detector wands???

[raitfaiter]

Saw a pax in Olando yesterday with a 'security'uard literally searching between his toes having made him take his shoes off....:rolleyes: