Training in the USA - Visa and TSA Requirements

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

After September 11, 2001, U.S. Immigration has started to enforce the visa requirement for flight training.

There has been alot of discussion on whether to lie to Immigration when entering the U.S. and say you are on holiday or getting an M-1 visa and entering the U.S. properly.

I figured that alot of people in this forum have not seen the M-1 visa and would be interested in knowing what is in the form. The Visa form is a single page with 11 sections. They are as follows:

1)
Family name:
First name:
Country of birth:
Date of birth:
Country of citizenship:
Admission number (complete if known):

2)
School name:
School official (to be notified of student's arrival in the U.S.):
School address:
School Code (include 3-digit suffix, if any) and approval date:

3) This certificate is issued to the student named above for:
(check and fill out as appropriate)

a. Initial attendance at this school.
b. Continued attendance at this school.
c. School transfer.
Transferred from:
d. Use by dependents of entering the U.S.
e. Other:

4) Level of education the student is pursuing or will pursue in the U.S.: (check only one)

a. High school
b. Other vocational school

5) The student named above has been accepted for a full course of study at this school majoring in:
The student is expected to report to the school not later than (date) and complete studies not later than (date) the normal length of study is

6)(check if required)

English proficiency is required:
The student has the required English proficiency.
The student is not yet proficient, English instructons will be given at the school.
Enghish proficience is not required because:

7) This school estimates the student's average costs for an academic term of (up to 12)months to be:

a. Tuition and fees $
b. Living expenses $
c. Expenses of dependents $
d. Other (specify) $
Total $

8) This school has information showing the following as the student's means of support, estimated for an academic term of months (Use the same number of months given in itme 7)

a. Students personal funds $
b. Funds from the school
(specify type) $
c. Funds from another source
(specify type and source)$
Total $


9 Remarks:


10

Signature of designated school offical:
Name of designated school official and title:
Date and place issued:

11

Signature of student:
Name of student:
Date:
Signature of parent or guardian (if student is under 18):
Name of parent or guardian:
Date:
Address of parent or guardian:

That is the entire form which is sent to the student with this information filled. The student takes it to the U.S. Embassy along with the form OF-156 (which is about to be replaced with the for DS-156) (http://www.amb-usa.fr/consul/of156.pdf). That is it for the M-1 visa.

Hope this clears up the M-1 visa.

Happy to Help,


Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Richard,

We genuinely do appreciate the unemotional, factual and very useful posts you write for wannabees but the sig line is getting a little bit cheeky - company slogan and all.

Rob Lloyd

[EI-CD]

I was hoping to attain a flight training visa without having a flight school before I go to Florida.
Does anyone know if this is possible because I would prefer to find a school when I get over there.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

EI-CD,

The whole point of the M-1 Visa is for you to go to the school that is sponsoring you for the Visa.

You could enter the U.S.A. on a B Visitors Visa and then when you find the school you want, have them change your Immigration Status to an M-1 Visa. During the time it will take to change you from a B to an M-1 you will NOT be allowed to train in any way.

There are more details in this thread:

Visa Requirements for Flying and Training in the U.S.A. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65837)

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BIG MISTER]

What about the J1 Visa ?

Thanks + Merry Xmas

:D :D :D

[Long-EC]

Looks like the visa rules have changed again. The US Embassy in London is now requiring all those who want a non-immigrant visa (ie M1 etc) to attend the embassy for an interview.

But its all right, they say it will only take 4 hours out of your day - once you get there that is. After all, us Brits - who are standing shoulder to shoulder with our US allies in the fight against terrorism - have nothing better to do with our time than spend a morning explaining our last 10 years of holiday trips to some consulate type who thinks Edinburgh is in England.

It is not enough, it seems, to have to fill in three forms, including personal details of all your relatives, make a trip to a particular bank branch, give up your passport for 2 weeks, get a letter from your employer saying why it is they think you would prefer to stay in the UK and not emigrate to the US once you've finished and get tracked during your visit on the ISEAS student tracking system. And then there is the bit about being fingerprinted when you arrive.

Welcome to the land of the free...

Still, I suppose I should be grateful...at least I'm not Arab.

And no, if you are a US citizen coming to the UK to study, you don't need to attend an interview, you don't even need a visa.

For details - http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/january.htm

[PPRuNe Towers]

Sensible, check out the date of my post. Sorted out aeons ago and we have a very good working relationship with Richard.

Regards
Rob

[Beethoven]

Well it looks like it is South Africa for me then...I am just not prepared to undergo this treatment.Shame really as I love the States and flying there but I have my limits and this is beyond them.I feel sorry for the schools out there.They are the ones who are going to suffer especially now as SA is becoming a viable althernative.
Beet

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

Trouble with your idea Beet is the Crime.

I know someone who went over there for the month but returned after two weeks....couldn't deal with the high level of crime and living like a prisoner....took all the enjoyment out of it. Everything had a wire fence around it and most were electric.

Guess is depends where in the Country you go as there are some lovely areas but most would want to fill out the paperwork and go to a known quantity. The stories I have heard are crazy. One said that he had to pay a kid to look out for his car when he went shopping because if he refused payment his car would not be safe!

Just to let you all know, about 10 years ago the process at the US Embassy was quite similar and they had slackened off. It is also interesting to know that it only seems to be US Embassy in the UK who has these new changes. I feel that the government believe that as we are in cohoots with the US that we should be careful from all around.

[aztruck]

I have a question....I posess a B1/B2 Visa and an Aircrew C1/D Visa as a professional airline pilot with a UK Carrier. I also hold FAA Cpl/IR and CFI/MEI Licences in addition to my CAA Atpl.
In a year or so I would like to renew my CFI ticket.
Will I have to undergo this 3rd degree grilling in order to do so?
Secondly, I am the co owner of a US registered twin which is based on the West Coast USA with my partner being a US Citizen.
Am I now restricted from flying my own bird when on holiday?

[PPRuNe Towers]

I've got the same starry constellation of visas Aztruck and I'm going through the whole shebang to get in for recurrent...........

Rob

[iflysims]

aztruck,
Interesting question...Few observations that may help you. INS doesnt care how many visas you have in your passport it only cares for which visa you enter the US with. This then better correspond to what you are actually doing...For example...if you enter with your Airline Crew C1/D visa and you are on vacation they that could cause a problem because you are not actually doing what the visa is intendet for.

You can sum up visa requirements with what you intend to do. For example if you are going to school then you need a student visa. If you happen to go on vacation while you are at school your main intend is still to be a student even though you are currently on vacation...have I confused you enough :confused:

If you are flying your own airplane and not actually enrolling in a school then a Tourist visa should suffice..but this is where it gets tricky...if you enroll in a school (for a CFI renewal) and fly with an instructor it may not fall under "vacation" and a Tourist Visa would NOT be enough...bottom line a lot is up for interpretation and believe it or not the US embassy employees which actually work for the state department don't always agree with INS which is Dept. of Justice. So I would advise you if you are going to renew your CFI to add another visa to your collection and get a M-1 Student Visa and use that when you enter...of course talk to the officer when you arrive and simply ask him. I noticed that they are getting much friendlier and helpful and if you have a good attitude about it they will too...

Take care!

[Sensible]

Beethoven,

I'm off to a place around 300miles from J'bourg at the beginning of Jan to do some flying.

If I get back alive I'll report how good or bad it is in S.A.

[Need4Speed23]

Aztruck,

The simplest thing for you to do is do your renewal online. There are plenty of refresher courses available. I know jepessen and asa, king have them. I know they are not expensive but don't know what they entail.

As for flying your aircraft if you are not doing any training in it towards a rating you CAN fly it on your tourist visa. This is to the best of my knowledge, dealing with a lot of international students at the flight school I work at in the US.

[Chuck-the-Moose]

What hapens if my company wants to send me to the US for training?

What visa would I enter on then?

[Beethoven]

Many thanks,Sensible...!
That would be really helpful.Stay safe ok?
Best Wishes,
Beet

[superpilot68]

oh yes, u can be train during the change of an B1/2 visa to an M1 visa.U can even be trained on your B1/2 visa.
here my secret (do not tell to a US officer, they will place u on the terrorist list).enter in the USA with a B1 or b2 visa.
when in the USA, go in a fixed based operator (FBO), take some business card you will find around.Call several CFI, ask them if they have a plane to rent and the next day u will fly in the wonderful US sky.

the pilot in command has final authority (PArt 61,????), INS has no authority on a pilot in command.
it's the law!:D

[Facts Not Fiction Pls]

You know it is people like you, dodging the rules, that make it harder for everyone else!

Is that what you will be like in an aircraft?

['I' in the sky]

Aztruck.

Visit www.Gleim.com for details of their online refresher seminar.

[EI-CD]

If you are awarded a M-1 visa, how long is the maximum time it can last?

[iflysims]

EI-CD,
It is valid for up to 50% over the actual course length but no more then 12 months. In other words if a course if 6 months you will most likely get a 9 month visa. I would have to add that many schools do not know about the exact rules regarding this so many schools issue 12 month I-20's. Sometimes the US embassy doesnt question it either but I do know in some cases students were approved less time in their passport.

The M-1 visa can be extended only ONE TIME (for maximum 12 months) so if you do not finish after the extension you would be required to leave the country. Then you could conceivably apply for another I-20/M-1 visa but be prepared to do some very good explaining why they should give you another visa

[ecoflyer]

All of you wize guys and girls out there!!

Does anybody know about a visa that allows you to work as a flight instructur or in banner towing in the US for shorter periods??

[JABI]

It's not that bad really, they just want to confirm who you are and where you're going, I heard it only takes 20 min.
What's the added security value of a visa if you could get it over the mail?
Lot of people seem to be upset about being treated the same as every other nationality...bit of a laugh really..
Didn't Reid (the shoebomber) live in the UK?
Wat about that imam in a mosque in London...you now the guy with no hands who was persecuted in Egypt for being a little too radical and getting asylum in the UK?:D

[ChewyTheWookie]

The ridiculous US visa system has just ruined my planned trip to the states to do my PPL. Firstly their appointment booking system is a premium rate number which costs £1.30 a minute, they deliberatly repeat the recorded messages to waste your time and cost you more and then you get told that you have to wait over a month for an appointment. The woman on the other end clearly didn't give a toss that this would destroy my one and only chance to do my PPL in the next few years and wouldn't give me any advice whatsoever. They also want to take away my passport for a week which would prevent me doing my job (cabin crew).

No wonder everyone hates the americans when they treat even their "closest allies" like criminals. By the way, I am British, I have no links whatsoever with Muslim extremists, Islam or anything else, I have a nice home, decent enough job and family. Anyone with half an eye can see I will not want to live in the USA or blow it up.

[Farrell]

My M1 is valid for five years

[Nigeyboy]

I have just completed the J-1 Visa merry-go-round Its complicated, requires a certain amony of time and dedication, yes you may have to plan on not having your passport HHmmmm a bit like trying for any flying licence?

How many people get aggravated here in the UK about the lack of control of immigrants into the country? It seems to me that if you want the visa then be prepared to do the things that the people (who's country you wish to enter) are asking.

I have J-1 Visa for myself, (2 hours wait in the Embassy) and a J-2 for my wife. The system is not perfect by any means, but at the end of the day I am now able to stay in the US for 2 years and complete my training. Isn't that worth a little bit of effort?

[SR20flyDoc]

No wonder everyone hates the americans when they treat even their "closest allies" like criminals

Two of the most known muslim terrorists in The Netherlands who worked together with Mohammed B., the murderer of Theo van Gogh, are Americans; Jason Walters and Jermaine Walters.

I love most americans, except for a few.

S.

[SR20flyDoc]

Naples Air Center, Inc

Are you aware there are flightschools, who participate in the TSA very tough screening (fingerprints etc.) on www.flightschoolcandidates.gov , and for specific courses ( license upgrade etc ), that don't issue I-20 forms ?

So a B visa on the Visa Waiver Prorgam might be good enough for selected courses and flightschools ?

S.


p.s.

- immigration officers / VISA are there to assess people for the risk of staying in a country without the means to earn money

- TSA is there to asses the security risk of people.


Like coffee and tea, not different cups of tea.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And as a finishing touch, God created the Dutch

[Nearly Man]

Sensible, I think you'll be fine in SA .. I did hr building there and it was great laugh .. cheap, food better, people nicer.

Plus, I did PPL in US and hr built there too, was OK when I was there .. however, since had a visit from Special Branch ala FBI.

About time I think for bods to tell the yanks where to stick their homeland security, wash their hands of them .. and get out flying in better and friendlier places

ta ra

[Ninety-Nines]

It is true that the TSA requirement does not require you to be on a Visa. In fact, the Deputy Sherriff that comes to do the students fingerprints at NAC does not even want to see an original passport anymore........but what he does need to send to the TSA with the fingerprints to get approval for training is:

1. Copy of Passport
2. Copy of I20 visa form
3. Copy of student visa in the passport.

ChewyTheWookie

Sorry to hear about your troubles.......I can advise that we have many cabin crew for training and they use a visa processing service which turns around the visas in a couple of days when they are not flying. Please email and I will put you in touch with one of the students that did this.

No wonder everyone hates the americans when they treat even their "closest allies" like criminals

As for this.....the process is getting just as bad going into the UK, but saying that everyone hates americans .....that's just as bad as the few Americans generalizing about the French just because the President over there does not agree with the War.... I am British and I live in the US for one reason only......I run a flight school and I believe that the best place for my Flight school is in Florida.

Getting back to flying......yes there are some things that you need to do but for most is put them out for a bit of form filling and going up to the Embassy. We have pretty much roughened the edges on the system and students are moving through quite smoothly. Most students see putting up with this is still worth the brilliant flying that you will get in the US.

On a final note, I would suggest that you contact your school that you are going to and see if they can assist you....most will have a contact at the US Embassy that you can call.

Good luck to you

[SR20flyDoc]

@ Ninety-Nines

Still mixed up;

On B visa you are approved to study, if a study is less than 18 hours a week.

1. no study, No I-20, no M1
2. A participant on the WVP gets a B for 90 days

A multi add-on will take about 10 hours. This will need TSA approval.

:confused:

S.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And as a finishing touch, God created the Dutch

[Engine Noise]

Hi,
Supposing i am going for the flight training with my spouse, how do i get the M-2 visa.Is the school required to also send an I-20 form for my spouse?(she s not going for training)

[Ninety-Nines]

The local homeland security office is clear in as much that any student completing training towards a licence certificate or rating requires an M1 visa. ie if you have a FAA PPL and want to get a JAA PPL, then this is not considered training as you are licenced and rated in the aircraft that you are flying. If however you do not have any licence you would need a visa. In another manner, if you hold an SEP PPL and want to add a MEP, you would need a visa. It has been rumoured that the FAA Examiners will soon need to take copied of the visas as well as their ID's when giving check rides.

A visa waiver form is not and does not give you a B visa; you have to apply for a B visa. A visa waiver (green form) is a programme offered through the Airlines to avoid some approved countries the requirement to attain a visa to visit those Countries.......not train, study or work.

Generally there are two B visa, B1 and B2. One is primarily for people who own a house etc and want to be in the US for up to 6 months at a time. The other is attained when you are visiting the US on business and allows you to work on behalf of the Company that sent you to the US.

The process for the B visa is very similar to that of the M visa but they are harder to come by these days as people were abusing the system.......shock horror:eek:

Engine Noise

It is really simple to get a M2 visa for your wife/significant other......we just add her details onto the form and you take it along with yours to the US Embassy appointment.

[Keygrip]

It has been rumoured that the FAA Examiners will soon need to take copied of the visas as well as their ID's when giving check rides. They already do in Orlando district.

It is really simple to get a M2 visa for your wife/significant other......we just add her details onto the form and you take it along with yours to the US Embassy appointment. Received an e-mail from a guy recently who said that his wife was told to make a seperate appointment at Grosvenor Square - and she had to make it herself, therefore a different day, different appointment. Stupid bloody system.

[Justine]

Hi
Just a correction on obtaining an M2 visa for spouses and family. Individual I-20s need to be issued for each and every person.
It is relatively simple to do. When the schools administrator is issuing the main I-20, they just need to continue into the dependents section to issue separate dependent I-20s. You will need to give the full names as in the passports and dates of birth.
Don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise, we believed a person we spoke to over the phone at the embassy and my initial application was rejected.
All the forms from the embassy also need to be filled in for all the applicants. BTW, you should still only need to pay one fee to SEVIS for your I-20 issue. Make sure you take the receipt for payment with you to the embassy.
It all goes really smoothly as long as you have every piece of paper you can possibly be asked for. I have been here with my husband and children for 18 months and we love it.

[On the Spot]

How do you get a visa when the instruction (FAA instrument rating) is given unpaid by an indivdual rather than a flight school ?

According to the US embassy I need an M1 visa (rather than my Business visa) as you state and to get that need a flight school and forms I-20 or DS-5019 neither of which seem to be available via the embassy website.

Thanks
:confused:

[Turkish777]

My M1 visa lasts 12 months with 6 months extendable..If I could go back in time I would never have done the full course in Florida, just a PPL and 100 hours buiding...Everyone I know from our school has had a nightmare adjusting to UK airspace, comms, and especially the weather....whats pitot heat for?? Icing whats that all about???

One guy from our school spent 15 thousand pounds to convert his FAA IR to a JAA IR....

[BigGrecian]

forms I-20 or DS-5019 neither of which seem to be available via the embassy website.

The I-20 is issued by the Flight School which you wish to attend. Be aware the majority of schools charge for this hidden away in some sort of enrollment fee...:bored:

[SR20flyDoc]

It has been rumoured that the FAA Examiners will soon need to take copied of the visas as well as their ID's when giving check rides.

They don't in the LA area. I know of a school which charges $ 1000 for the I-20, and do a multi in 30 hours. :confused:

ATP does it in 10-15 hours and 4 to 5 days.

S.

[Philip_123]

Does it mean a I-20 form must be obtained before applying the M-1 visa? Can all flight school provide the I-20 or only specified flight schools could provide that form?

Thanks very much!

[gazman21]

anybody know of any schools that allow students on a M1 visa to work as a flight instructor and actually get paid at same time (and yes,I know that its not allowed with this visa but just wondering anyway)
gazman21

[BigGrecian]

No and I don't think must people would do so and if they did there is no way their about to admit it here! If your going to do it you can do it on a J1 Visa (student/exchange visa) If you get caught working on an M1 Visa without the proper privileges as well you are liable to refused entry to the US in the future as well.

[L'WAAPAM]

Hi All,

Trawling through the various Visa threads has given me a good starting point, however, the question I have is this:

Is there anything else you have to do/attain if your employer is sending you to the USA for training as opposed to training privately. Bearing in mind that I will be in the emloyment of a Brit firm and being paid to do the training by them . Does this make a difference?

Or will the M1 visa suffice?

Looking at doing a JAA Type rating (less than 12,500lbs) at Flightsafety.

Cheers

L'

[B2N2]

Would help if we know what airplane you'll be training on.
With this scarce info I would say an M1 is enough.
Did you check ;
www.flightschoolcandidates.gov


TSA website.

[L'WAAPAM]

Hi B2N2,

The aircraft will be a Sikorsky S76C.

I currently hold a JAA/CAA CPL(H) IR and am looking to add the S76C type rating that will required by my new employer. The employer is paying for the training.

Cheers

L'

[B2N2]

Congrat's on the Sikorsky !
Please don't rely on me as I'm not a total VISA buff but an M1 should do fine.
Check the FAQ page on the above mentioned website..:ok:

[George Semel]

Good for you on the S-76. Your Employer and Flight Safety will make sure all the paper work is in order. Flight Safety dose this stuff all the time. Why don't you just contact Palm Beach and ask if its keeping you up at night.

[Biz]

I'm not entirley sure if anyone can help me with this question, but while I'm at work, I thought I'd give Pprune a shot first!

I was due to begin a course of study in the US last July, but due to illness, I had to cancel it at the last moment. Now, having made a full recovery, I am thinking of shipping myself out there again, to the same school. However, I might be doing a different or the same course, I have not decided yet.

Will I need to go through the TSA approval once again???
Will I need a new visa issued, or will the unused one I currently have suffice???

I don't know how these official visa things work, but I am very concious of their cost!!!!!!

Thanks in advance!

[d2k73]

I called to the embassy in dublin today to get some info about a visa, i had to talk to some chap through a speaker thing and i couldnt hear a word he was sayin! So hopefully someone here can help me....

Basically im headin off to naples next year for the CPP and was wondering how long before should i start organising my visa? What is involved in it, costs, do i need to book a return flight...etc...
Cheers
Danny

[Ninety-Nines]

Definitely suggest that you complete the process as soon as possible to avoid any delays and to feel comfortable with knowing all the t's crossed etc.

[gazman21]

Hi does anybody know the lowdown on transferring a M1 visa from one flight school to another? I have heard rumours that it cant be done if you have spent 6 months+ at the school where you had your M1 initally issued for. . . .Anybody with info about transferring please fill me in!

Thanks in advance

gazman21

[Keygrip]

It can be done immediately - and takes 30 seconds.

Tell the school that issues your visa that you wish to transfer.

They DO NOT have the right to terminate your visa if you tell them you want to transfer to a competitor (if they threaten to do so then YOU must call the SEVIS helpline [google!!] and tell "Immigration" what the school said or did).

The visa issuing people at the school you wish to leave need only to enter your file on the SEVIS website and click on "transfer out".

The school you want to go to should click on their records and click "transfer in".

Job done.

[gazman21]

Hey Keygrip,
I sent you a PM about the 6 month limit on transferring the M1 visa.Any info about that,can it be done if I have been here for longer than 6 months?

gazman21

[PingPong]

I started a thread titled ICAO to FAA ATP - TSA & Visa on the North American forum but am not getting much joy, so far. I am now wondering if it also applies to this forum, so here goes.

In summary, I am a British Citizen, and wish to go to the USA to get an FAA ATP ... I already have an ICAO ATPL. I am fully aware of the aviation requirements but am getting very conflicting information regarding TSA & Visa requirements.

If anyone has actually DONE it (thanks to everyone else but I have searched the web extensively, spoken to schools, the embassy etc), I would really appreciate hearing from you. The thread is at http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198754

[subsidence]

Hy,

I have seen that most of the Professional Programs( from 0 to CFI) at US flight schools are under Part 141.
Does somebody know if it is possible to get this sort of training also under Part.61, or does it have to be a 141 approved course.
Appreciate any information.

regards,
sub

[apruneuk]

As far as I remember, Part 61 is the FAA version of the JAA Modular and 141 is Integrated. You can achieve 0 to CFI via either route. I am sure that any American flight school can give you all the information you need.

[Martin1234]

I think that the school needs to be 141 approved in order to be able to sponsor any type of training visa.

If you attend a part 141 approved school you have the choice of training under either part 61 or 141.

[PingPong]

Apologies for bringing this to the top again, but I am no further in getting an answer and I now need to get cracking on this. I am hoping that a non-USA national may have been to the USA to get an ATP (or perhaps a Com) since my last post. If anyone can help, it would be very much appreciated.

[Speedbird744]

As I'm aware of the TSA Requirement,
can anyone hint whether you need an M1 Visa to enter the states for a type rating since the TRTO that I'm in contact with state all students come over on a visa waiver as training is less than 90days.
Since you already have the licence and everything is simulator based, is this perfectly legal?

Thanks

[Mr Wonka]

Speedbird744

For any training in the US you must go through the TSA on line application. In answer to your question NO you do not need a visa AS long as you have a return ticket booked with your arrival date and departure date as indicated on your on line TSA.

Your training provider has the latest updated information and so as long as your training is less than 90 days your ok. So yes it is fine and dandy.

Have fun

Mr W

[mcgoo]

i was in the states the end of last year for 3 weeks flying training and had to get a visa, i was told all for all flying training you have to have a visa but if you are hour building you can use the visa waiver if less than 90 days!

[kerrinator]

I've been refused entry to the States before, because I didn't bother getting the visa for the flying course, evnethough I wasn't going to stay more than 90 days. And the funny thing is, that the Flight school actually told me that the visa waiwer would be enough!

[Nimbus5]

Mcgoo and Kerrinator,

A Type Rating does not involve flying training, it involves simulators. It's very hard to crash a simulator into a building and actually kill any real people so the rules are less strict than what you went through.

[kerrinator]

Nimbus 5
To my understanding, a type rating involves TRAINING. And a visa waiver is not supposed to be used for any full time course. I think youre not even allowed to enter the US with the waiver, if the sole purpose of your visit is to do a course (flying or no flying)! And by the way its actually got, nothing to do with the 9/11 incident! ok-

[mad_jock]

Type ratings can be done on the wavier.

LPC/OPC checks can be done on a wavier in the sim as well.

You fill out a web page.

Get a log in

Fill out everything thats required pay your money.

They send you an email a couple of days later telling you what you need to redo.

You then have to get your finger prints taken before starting training in the sim. This can be done in the UK or by the local plod once you get there.

It is completly different for proffesional pilots sponsered by a company to do a type rating compared to going to do a PPL or MEP.

MJ

[chrisbl]

The rules are that anything that leads to a certification needs a visa. I would say therefore that getting a licience or a rating falls within the scope of needing a visa. That therefore means that the training towards the rating has to be done at an immigration approved school.
I suspect the advice given came from a non immigration approved school as they tend to not know anything about visas.
If they are an immigration approved provider PM me with their name so as I can apply to do something with them.:hmm:

[mcgoo]

Mcgoo and Kerrinator,
A Type Rating does not involve flying training, it involves simulators. It's very hard to crash a simulator into a building and actually kill any real people so the rules are less strict than what you went through.


keep your smart arse comments to yourself, if you look into the regulations you will see the visa requirements are nothing to do with the ability to destroy buildings or kill people!

[airlinepilot1960]

You are slightly wrong, take the time to educate yourself and read the preamble on changes to training under a visa waiver that happened a couple of years ago, you will see they are a direct result of 9/11 ! You can search on pprune and find the info you need.

As I understood it any time of full time training, I think the number is > 18hr per week for anything, let it be a english course, or a flying course. Hence you can hour build in the USA, but little else without a student visa.

The large type rating school I went to put all students on a visa for their training when they were from overseas.

[mad_jock]

Speedbird744

Listen to your training provider. Lots of crew go for sim work from all over europe on a regular baisis. There is some electronic paper work to do but its no great hassel. The immigration folk in the major hubs know all about it as well. When you go through just show them the conformation email with your registration number on it and confirmed training period and it is all fine.

MJ

[7E7Flyer]

I heard different stories about the matter.

Some say you can't get a J-1 with more a PPL and 50hrs TOTAL TIME, while others say you can't get it with more than 50hrs experience AFTER gaining your PPL.

What is the actual requirement? Any first-hand experiences?

[razzele]

Realistically it appears to be more down to how much money you are going to spend at the J1 provider school before you want to work.

Ive heard of places taken jaa fATPL's and giving them a J1 if they do a full FAA course.

:ok:

razzele

[november.sierra]

Apologies in advance for yet another question:

After the ATPL theory I plan on going to Florida to hour build and afterwards continue training for the CPL and ME in the USA (most probably EFT). The dilemma I have is that I don't think the M1 visa required for flight training (which as far as I understand it the flight school acts as a guarantor for) will not cover me for hour building.

I have had suggestions to enter the country on a tourist visa to build hours and subsequently change it to a M1, so any suggestions you may have will be helpful. Once again, thanks!

[mcgoo]

you are not required to have a visa for hour building, this can be done under the visa waiver scheme but you will require a visa for flight training

[daisy bender]

You would be able to enter the country on a visa waiver for the hour building but if you want to do some training as well then you would need to leave the country to complete the M1 visa (in whichever country appropriate) or so I have been told. Don't think it is as easy as just 'changing' it whilst you are over there.

I would ring up the US Embassy in your country and ask them directly because you don't want to fork out double on atlantic flights that you didn't need just because you didn't get a visa before arriving. It isn't that much hassle getting the visa, just a lot of waiting around unfortunately. oh and a wee bit of money, lest we forget...:oh:

[B2N2]

Two options;

1. You ask the school to have the I20 (visa application form) include the dates of hour building, which is not really necessary.

2.On a M1 visa you can enter the country up to 30 days before the start date of your course as stated on the visa.Use this time for your hour building.
Reason being that M1 is a student visa and it allows you time to enter the country, find accomodation,get your study materials, get familiar with your school etc etc before the course actually starts.

*****I am not a visa specialist, so one call to the embassy will clarify this.****

[november.sierra]

Thanks for the help so far. What concerns me is the fact that the flight school has to vouch for you so you cán get the visa, so I expect them to be quite reluctant to sign you off for a period that you won't be spending with them. Alternatively, I think a call to the embassy might be the best option.

[lloydsky]

Anyone know if there is any way of extending a J1 visa ?? or getting another one?

[B2N2]

If you want to do your time building somewhere else (which you did not mention in your first post) then option 1 does not apply.
Coming into the country ( up to 30 days ahead) does not really put you under their resposibility yet, you are allowed to do so.
You will be on their visa but it has not come into play yet.
30 days should allow you plenty of time building.

[gcolyer]

You definatley don't need an M1 to hour build. But you will require an FAA Temporary Airmans certificate to fly N reg aircraft. You will need to pay the CAA £38 to verify your JAA/CAA licence to the FAA. You then need to apply to the FAA for a certificate based on a foriegn licence and then go to the FSDO of your choice (in the US) and pick the certificate up.

Gary.

[hedges81]

Mcgoo and Kerrinator,
A Type Rating does not involve flying training, it involves simulators. It's very hard to crash a simulator into a building and actually kill any real people so the rules are less strict than what you went through.

Again a complete load of rubbish from this bul****ter who has been exposed in other posts as having absolutely no experience of commercial flying whatsoever.

Scroggs, isnt it about time this guy was banned?

[ant1]

US Embassy says YES.

Take also a look at the first message of this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178223&highlight=visa)

The answer appears to be a BIG YES

[Julian]

I looked at a couple of type ratings (CJ) last year and they are required to fly the actual aircraft for an hour or so and take the test in it as well so not not strictly be all sim work.

Julian.

[youngskywalker]

Second question for this week! Never having done any flight training in the States I know nothing about the Visa process.

The school in America that I am going to in October has just announced ..."great news that they can now issue the m1 visa." Does this mean I do not have to go to the US embassy in London or is that wishful thinking?

[mcgoo]

wishful thinking, this means that the school is now approved for m-1 visa and they can issue you a form I-20 for your visa application

[youngskywalker]

Ah okay, I suspected it may be something like that.

[chrisbl]

Care to name the school as each new one is of interest.

[gcolyer]

I have done this a few times now. PM me if you want any info.

[d2k73]

No horror stories please as I have commited myself to them!!

I presume you haven't paid up front?!:confused:

[youngskywalker]

Only £300 for deposit. I wont pay anymore until I am out there.

[NZLeardriver]

Heading US way next month for a type rating, got all of the TSA stuff done, but do I need a visa? The type rating people say no need it is all fine under the visa waiver and they have a lot of people doing that.
The info online is unclear.
Is there anything online that I can print out to show the immigration officer if he queries it?
I don't believe I need a visa, but these days I would feel a lot more comfortable if i had something in writing.

[MrMutra]

If the training provider says you dont need one then you dont. I used the visa waver program when i completed my tr. so if i where you worry about the TR course.

:)

[NZLeardriver]

Thank you Mr Mutra.
What did you tell the immigration officer when you went through?

[powdermonkey]

I needed a Visa for the ME, I think if you are training a visa is required no?
I could be wrong, but would hate to think you might get turned around at the airport! If you have a doubt, check with the Embassy or the FTO.

[dartagnan]

in the USA, they speak 2 different languages.

DHS says you need a tourist visa or a visa waiver and
the transport security administration (TSA)want a m1 or a f1 visa.

if you are screened by the TSA, and your school is not under the I-20 program(course of 1 year) , they will deny your application.Your school is apparently not under the I-20 program.

if you are not screened by the TSA , you will receive an authorisation.

it is just a question of luck.

actually , many students like you have already been denied and have lost their money.

You will know after the 30 days waiting period.

if you are denied expect an answer like this: "we have reviewed your application, as you are ineligible to enter in the USA, we can not process with your application."

or if accepted:" you have been granted authorisation...."

I think this problem come from the 9/11 families' associations who think it is scandalous that foreign students pilots can have access to these big simulators with no visa when a visa M1 is required for a cessna 152.

I would suggest you to wait their answer before paying for the course, if the TSA follow their procedure, you won't be accepted as the only visa accepted are M1-F1-J1.
I think more and more student are refused until a new type of visa is issued by the immigration and approved by the TSA (tourist visa is not approved by the TSA).


please,keep me/us in touch about your application.

[Peter_CDG]

I received the following answer from a flight school in the states :

There has always been a lot of "talk" around about these visas. Of course,
the few flight schools that offer them will tell you that it is absolutely
necessary.
But if you are coming to the US primarily for the purpose of "vacation",
the tourist visa is good for up to 90 days. The key word is "primarily".
So........if coming over, you would state your purpose of the visit is for
vacation only (and not mention anything else).
Immigration's own website will read that a student visa is NOT needed if
you would be in a course of study that is less than 22 hours per week of
classroom OR less than 18 hours per week of "practical" study.

[dartagnan]

it is not the immigration who decides if you can enter in the USA for flying lessons or not, it is the TSA.

Schools tell you what they know, based on immigration laws and not on TSA laws.
School are restricted by the TSA and the TSA tries to overpower the Immigration.
Legally they can, under the US law, do whatever they want , they can deport you, put you in jail, or even use tortures...you have no right, no attorney, and you can not sue the DHS (Department of Homeland Security).

in my point of view, the TSA tries to not recognise some types of visa, (the tourist visa by exemple), and in this case they restrict "self sponsored" students to have access to simulators. (the terrorist of 9/11 were "self sponsored")

Be very prudent with what TRTO tell you. If you are found illegal in the USA or you try to lie to an immigration officer, you could be bared for the next 10-20 years.It would be better to have all documents with you at the port of entrance and explain your real attention.

Going to the USA under a commercial program is a different story. In this case the tourist visa or visa waiver is "accepted" by the TSA.it means you have to be hired and sent to the USA by an airline for a type rating.

(sorry for my mistakes)

[OVC002]

it is not the immigration who decides if you can enter in the USA for flying lessons or not, it is the TSA.

The Immigration officer at your point of entry into the USA is the decision maker as to whether you are allowed in, or not. You can wave any flavour of visa you like at him/her, if they don't like the look of you, then you are not coming in.

The TSA has nothing to do with this process. With regard to flight schools, what they do is police the security aspects of foreigners training for a rating in the USA.

Both Agencies are separate divisions of the Department for Homeland Security.

[itsbrokenagain]

As noted by a poster:
Immigration's own website will read that a student visa is NOT needed if
you would be in a course of study that is less than 22 hours per week of
classroom OR less than 18 hours per week of "practical" study.

I have done recurrents and initial type ratings now at Flight Safety, the shortest was the recurrent, and that was 3 days of 8 hrs each in a row, so even a recurrent would need a student visa.

Just get a visa, end of story!

If you or someone else is investing the money in a type rating or recurrent then why try and skimp on something as easy as a visa !

[ant1]

Because I don't know any type rating training organization that issues m1 visas :sad:

[redsnail]

Our company (JAA one) gets every one a B1/B2 & C1/D visa for the US. We do our type ratings there and renewals as well.

When I went to do a renewal the bloke at the desk stamped "B1".
(I had done the initial in Dubai).

Personally, for a type rating, I'd get the visa.

[NZLeardriver]

Hmmm, the type rating provider doesn't issue visas. Can you get a crew visa if your airline doesn't fly to the US?
They don't make this easy for people wanting to do the right thing.

[Farrell]

Just get a visa, end of story!



Agree wholeheartedly.
It takes a little time and effort to organise a visa but the peace of mind is well worth the expense of both.

Imagine spending all that money plus the amount of your initial training only to lose your 'unrestricted' passport which is pretty much a general requirement for any airline work.

[NZLeardriver]

So how does one get a visa?
The course is 2.5 weeks and the type rating training organization doesn't issue visas. I had also heard that a consulate would not issue a visa for such a short time.

[dartagnan]

got this problem too:

the TSA asked me for a M1-F1 visa, but the school can not issue me such visa for 4 weeks.
the TSA did not give me the auhorisation for a type rating in the USA.
I lost my money!

I have talked to the TSA , they said I need a M1 visa or no type rating for me.:ugh:

[dartagnan]

I inform you, if you are looking to make a JAA(or FAA) type rating in the USA, you need a M1 visa , and not a tourist visa like most people say here.

I have found only one school in florida, www.simcenter.cc (http://www.simcenter.cc). the problem they are not JAR. JAR TRTO in the USA do not issue M1 visa.


Since the terror attacks of September 11th, the United States INS has stated that ANYONE who arrives in America whose MAIN intent for the trip is for flight training MUST have a valid M-1 Training Visa or run the risk of detention and deportation. This is strictly enforced regardless of what you may be told. If your MAIN reason for the trip is to have a holiday with your family then you are not required to have a visa if you decide you MAY want to fly a few hours whilst your family are doing other things.

[planecrazy.eu]

This visa thing is confusing me, so maybe someone can help.

My intention for visiting the USA is as an exchange/working exchange student, i have an J1 visa (Well hope so, interview soon), so whats the difference between and M1 and J1 visa as its all sooo confusing.

[BigGrecian]

I think that if you were going to undertake a type rating over here the company which is organising the TR would be able to keep you informed regarding immigration status.
I wouldn't recommend anyone to take anything read on PPrune as truth especailly regarding Immigration issues. The US Embassy is just a phone call away and if you email the INS they are normally pretty good at replying.
If in doubt, check!

M1 - Normally non academic study in the US, which has a limit on the maximum length of the visa - could be 6 months - check.

J1 - Exchange visa which also allows you to work generally in the field assocaited with the visa. Normally 18 months, for flight training this can be extended to 24 months.

Your school should be able to help you with any questions you have. Ask to talk to the approved official if your answers aren't detailed enough - if not contact the INS - or whatever it's called nowadays.

More information can be found on the Immigration website regarding students.
http://www.ice.gov/sevis/students/index.htm

[dartagnan]

Contact the Immigration and the TSA.

it is the TSA which let you go in the sim.The TRTO need the "green light" from the TSA.

You can have the authorization from the Immigration and then be denied by the TSA.
this happened to me and I have finally learned they TSA want a M1 or a F1 visa if you want fly a simulator(even for 2 weeks).I do not talk about the money I have lost in this process.(application fee, finger prints, booking,....)
I have been instructed by the TRTO to go with my tourist visa. I have simply been denied by the TSA.

Some JAA schools will tell you you can enter with a US tourist visa or no visa. It is wrong...Some schools do not mention anything about TSA requirements.

Once you have paid and sign the contract, you discover it can take longer than expected. Personaly I do not suggest you to go to the USA for a type rating. You may save some money , but they can stop you anytime before your training or even during your training(and at your own cost).

the TSA has an info address, contact them and ask them what visa you need.

[type1]

hey guys

have had a little search around and can't find anything which relates to this specifically.

I'm planning on going out to the States in August to get my FAA IR and then my JAA CPL. I'll be doing the IR in California and the CPL in Florida - well this is what I'm hoping! Does anyone know if you're allowed to go to 2 different schools on the M1 visa? or do you need 2 visas? I will be speaking to the schools about this but was just looking for a quick reply to get some vague idea!

cheers

type1

[d2k73]

As far as I'm aware you can only train with the flight school named on your Visa and I-20. I may be wrong though!

[pipergirl]

I asked the same thing last year..here's the thread..hope this helps:ok:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=164841

[type1]

great info pipergirl - thanks a lot!!

did you end up doing it in the end?

[pipergirl]

no probs...

no haven't headed over just yet..will be in the next few months that's if everything goes to plan ;)

[type1]

am currently in a mad rush trying to organise an M1 visa to go to America in the middle of august! I've got my interview lined up on the 26th of July. Has anyone been through the process recently? Was just wondering how long it takes to get the visa back after the interview.

Also for the TSA approval - when filling out the online application it says it requires the visa number, as I won't have this until about 5 days before I intend to leave - does anyone know if the TSA approval is fairly instant or if I can arrive in the states before I have it and just wait to start the training?

Thanks guys!!

type1

[BIG MISTER]

All things being well the visa should be delivered back to you by the courier firm in about a week. I think mine arrived in 5 days !
am currently in a mad rush trying to organise an M1 visa to go to America in the middle of august! I've got my interview lined up on the 26th of July. Has anyone been through the process recently? Was just wondering how long it takes to get the visa back after the interview.
Also for the TSA approval - when filling out the online application it says it requires the visa number, as I won't have this until about 5 days before I intend to leave - does anyone know if the TSA approval is fairly instant or if I can arrive in the states before I have it and just wait to start the training?
Thanks guys!!
type1

[Frank Furillo]

I got mine last year the very next day!!!!

[kNOWpilot]

I have M-1 Visa & I still in my country & I would like to change my
flight school to another one.

Do I need to go to my school where I registered first, then change the school from there.!

could you please tell me. my opitn.

thanks

[kNOWpilot]

I have M-1 Visa & I still in my country & I would like to change my
flight school to another flight school ,

Do I need to go to my school where I registered first, then change the
school from there.!

could you please tell me. my opitn.:rolleyes:

thanks and Have good day to all.

[chrisbl]

You have to go to the school on your visa and work with them to put through the transfer to the new school. However the new school as to be INS approved also.

[BigGrecian]

Schools can't refuse to transfer you to another school if it's within the same field. Therefore, they have to transfer your visa if you ring them telling them you want to change school - all they have to do is "post you out" on the system to the other school (which will appear on the list because they have to be INS approved). The new school then just accepts your incoming application. All you need is a letter from your new school explaining this which you present to the immigration officer and all should be fine and dandy. I would however, expect to visit the immigration waiting room if flying into MCO - this is however, standard!

Therefore, if they start to throw their toys out the pram, say that you've visited the INS website and they can't refuse to do transfer you.

Good luck.

[kNOWpilot]

:) :) :) :) I have M1 visa for flight training.

If I contact my first school while I am still in my country ,and telling them that I would like to transfer to another school . Can the school cancel my Visa:( . is it possible.
or they Just say its ok and Transfer me to the new school.

my first school is in WA. & the new school in FL. it Is very far between WA & FL.that way I don't want to go to the first school then to the new.:{ (if I have opitns)
can I Just contact them by phone!

:) thank you for your help.:)

[Desert Budgie]

Saw this in depth thread and thought Id throw in my 10 cents.

I recently travelled to Denver, CO for a type rating. Of course, thought I needed a visa. I am a British Citizen. Got in touch with the US consulate in Dubai who explained to me that my course was VOCATIONAL and could not issue me with a visa, even if I wanted one. The consulate could only issue a visa if my course was a prolonged course of study, for example if I were to be doing initial flight training. The fact that I was just going accross for a couple of weeks to add a rating meant the need for a visa was waved.

Not being convinced I contacted the TSA, from whom I needed to get approval from anyway in order to train. They also explained that my course was vocational and that I could enter on the visa wavier program. At the same time I started my approval with the TSA for my course.

STILL not convinced, I contacted the Department of Homeland Security who also explained that my course was vocational and as a British Citizen I did not need a visa and could enter on the wavier program.

STILL not convinced I finally got in touch with the Customs and Border Patrol. I took the womans name who I spoke to and she quoted me the rules and regs out of her immigration book and the reference numbers I could quote to the immigration officer at JFK when I arrived in case I had any problem.

On departing the UAE I made sure I brought all correspondance from the departments I spoke to. I also had my TSA approval application which I could not complete until getting my fingerprints taken at Denver International Airport. I booked the appointment for the fingerprints before leaving the UAE. On arrival at JFK, the immigration officer asked me what Im doing. I said aircraft type training in Denver...and before I got a chance to finish I was admitted to the US for 3 months.

Finally, 3 days later after getting the fingerprints done I received my authorisation to train from the TSA and that was it.

I would just suggest to anybody unsure about their visa requirements to personally check with every authority possible, check, double check and tripple check. Type rating visas are a bit of a grey area in the US as nobody knows what type of course its classed as. When researching into my course, I got in touch with Flight Safety in LGA who told me that I would have to go accross on an aircrew visa. If I wasnt a member of an airline, I could not do a type rating in the US. However I found that this was untrue.

Don't know if this will help anyone but there u go

Cheers DB :ok:

[ant1]

Desert Budgie,
Thanks for this very useful piece of information. :ok:
Was yours a self sponsored type rating or were you sent by your airline?
The two cases have different requirements, I believe.
Thanks

[Desert Budgie]

I did my type rating self sponsored at Flight Training International in Denver, CO. They also told me that as being a member of a wavier country I did not need a visa, however they kept me up to date as the rules are constantly changing.

Like I said in my previous post, Flight Safety told me flat out that if I was not going accross on an aircrew visa I could not train at their facility in the US. However, if I was to do the same course in Toronto I could. The Canadian requirements are slightly different, and said that I could hop on a plane yesterday and to my type with no probs at all.

All in all the way I did it worked for me, superb staff, good sim and saved 8000us rather than bothering with flight safety. A mate of mine also on a British passport did a CE-550 type in Orlando Simcom, and as far as I am aware, he attended his course along the same lines as myself. I think the biggest thing the US is bothered about is the TSA clearance. At the end of the day they are the absolute authority to whether or not you can train, and if they clear you its all good. If an FTO cannot offer you a visa like in my circumstances, bring all the goods with you like you would when showing up for a visa interview. Ie bank statements, TSA approval, accomodation, enrollment letter etc..etc so that if you get questionned on arrival, you have the evidence to back you up that you are a legit student.

Again, this info is just from personal experience, so check it all out yourself before making any decisions.

Cheers

DB :ok:

[ant1]

Hi DB,

Tried to reach the TSA Flight Student Program Help Desk today but they seemed too busy and I got an answering machine.

Their site sates:

[08/25/2005] Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 1-800-375-5283 or at, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (http://www.uscis.gov) or the State Department Consular Affairs Office for assistance. The AFSP will deny flight training requests from candidates who are present in the United States illegally or who do not have an appropriate visa for flight training.

You say in your previous message that you contacted several agencies. Do those phone calls include one to the guys you had to deal with when you went through the port of entry ? I mean, are they the Border Patrol or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service ? Are they the same thing ? (Please pretend I asked this the right way :O)

Thanks

[Desert Budgie]

Yes! Customs and border patrol are the immigration officers at the desks when you enter the US. Basically the flight school told me I didnt need a visa and told me to check with my US embassy, who told me I didnt and told me to contact the TSA, who told me I didnt and gave me the number for the Department of Homeland Security (or State), who told me I didnt and gave me the number of the Customs and Border Patrol who also told me I didnt need a visa.

I worked in entry clearance at the British Embassy in Dubai last year. One of the things I learned there is that under certain categories of study or travel, a visa is not required. We would get these folk pleading with us to give them a visa 'just in case' and we couldnt. We were not refusing these folk entry to the UK, the fact was they did not require a visa to go to the UK, and could just travel on their passport alone. Even if they were going to study. A vocational course for example we could not issue a student visa because there was no requirement for one. However, we would advise these students to travel with 6 months bank statements, invitation letter, accomodation confirmation, return ticket...etc to show the immigration officer in the UK on arrival. This was the same deal as with me going to the US for my course.

DB :ok:

[dartagnan]

I have been denied by the TSA.
I have applied with Panam for the randhem training on the A320.(self sponsored).

Panam told me to come under a tourist visa,
not true, the TSA sent me an email requesting for an M1 visa. And this visa, I can not get it.:{
Since the begining, I got only not coherent stories from the TSA, DHS,and the school.



@desert budgie

who told you you do not need to be a crewmember for a type rating?.any text?

[dartagnan]

People who have been denied training by the TSA, can send me info by PM,
please if you wish,send me phone number of agents you have contacted, TSA/DHS answers, your situation (pending, denied,...)
all info I can get, will be used against the TSA and the DHS for clarification.


(you can keep your anonymat.)

[Desert Budgie]

D

check ur pms, found that law quoted to me from the cbp. keep us posted with what u hear. would be good news for everyone if it could get cleared up

db :ok:

[dartagnan]

DB,

thank you.
your number provided has been sent to the USA.
I think I will reapply with the TSA, and ask them why I have been denied, once I have more info.
I keep you in touch !

kala 320,
please,check you PM, or explain us your story.I bet you have applied for the A320 or the 737 training . and they told you to come with a b2 visa or visa waiver, and bingo, at the custom, they told you to go home after 5 hours ,giving phone calls, etc... and no one has really understand why!!! ...and now you are stuck at home, and you ask yourself: why????

[ant1]

Please keep me informed on your conclusions via PM or whatever means. (now I am really :confused:)

Thanks

[kNOWpilot]

HELLO ,

I have M-1 Visa it issued in 16th of May 2006 & I did not travel to the United States Because of my father death ,My father died on the 14th of may ,so I delaid my flight till now .

My Question is onc I get to the USA Airport ,the customs will turn me back !! to my country?!? Because I was to late .

my Visa Will Expire in 16th of june 2007.

Can any one answer my Question.:confused:

**my flight will be within two Days.

[saffron]

Hi,
I am off to do a type rating in good ol' USA for 22 days ,can I enter the haven of democracy on the Visa Waiver scheme (you can for recurrent training) or do i need a M1 visa?Appreciate any info/links etc.Thanks

[Farrell]

You are adding a rating so as far as I know you have to get an M1.

Welcome to the world of long queues and $100 fees for applying to make an application for a visa that you will have to pay another $100 for.

Then you will have to pay to register with the TSA, and that costs money too. And then you have to pay (at least, I did) a $30 fee to have your fingerprints taken at a police station close to the school you are training at.

Then there's the "special" sized photos that you have to pay for as "normal" passport photos are the wrong size. Then there's all the money you will fork out going to the embassy - oh and yes of course you have to purchase a DHL or Fedex envelope that they use to post the visa back to you if you get it and.........sigh!

I hope for your sake that it's the waiver but as I said at the start, you are adding a rating and that constitutes training and not just hour building on an existing rating.

Farrell

[LRdriver II]

I disagree... I went to the US last June for an initial typerating. Went on a visa waiver, but still had to do the TSA stuff

[Captain Capstan]

I was in the USA last month and enquired about a PPL course for my son. The training school were adamant that for any course you MUST get a visa.

[Farrell]

Best to contact the TSA by telephone.

None of us really know what the deal is!! :rolleyes:

[planecrazy.eu]

I have been all through this state side, i had an J1 visa, right to work. But i couldnt train, i wasn't eligable for the waiver either.

If you are "Training" then you need an M1 if you are not as US Joint or sole citizen. The exceptions to this are if you are on holiday and you decide to take some flying lessons, then a "resonable" ammount would be acceptable, they never stipulated how many hours are resonable, i would say five or six. You dont need an M1 for hour building, you dont need an M1 for continued studdies either, i think this refers to if you have started a course and never finished it off in the one trip/visit. Each rating is classed as a seperate course, so how i under-stand it from how they explained it state-side if you are been taught then an M1 visa is required, if you are hour building or had a "one off" lesson then this would be waiver or tourist type visa.

[scroggs]

Best to contact the TSA by telephone.

None of us really know what the deal is!! :rolleyes:

Correct. There is some good information on this thread, but it is highly date-sensitive. Not only that, but you are not in a position to judge what is correct and what is not.

The ONLY definitive source of information is the TSA, if necessary via the US Embassy in your domicile country. That doesn't guarantee correct info, but you stand a chance of a fair hearing if you are given false (and attributable) information by US authorities. The TSA will laugh in your face if you turn up at the US Immigration Post saying, "My mate on Pprune said it would be OK".

You stand to lose a lot of money invested in courses if you are turned away on entry. Make sure your information is correct. I repeat, there is only one source you can trust and can quote in case of dispute.

Scroggs

[54.98N]

There seems to be a lot of confusion over travelling to the US with regard to an SSTR
A group of us have just finished a JAA turboprop type rating with FlightSafety in the US.
We had all the issues and concerns that have been voiced here, and we went round in circles for ages trying to get a visa. FlightSafety couldnt issue an M1 as they didnt have an approved JAA course (we were renting the simulator and brought our JAA instructors/examiners with us).
Our group, although asked questions at the airport both my Customs/INS and TSA did all get admitted, and all of us were on visa waivers.
The main issue is the TSA clearance, if you dont have this you simply wont be able to get in the sim.
As always - get your own situation clarified before travelling.

[LostAndFound]

will it be possible for someone on the M1 visa to travel out of the USA without completing his course for a short break? Or do i have to reapply for another visa when returning after the break?
thx

[GgW]

LostAndFound

If you have the visa issued in your passport , it will say multiple or single entries, if multiple then yes , if it says single than no.
Best would be to contact the US embassy in your country, and ask them , each aplication is done on merit.

[B2N2]

You may have a visa with " multiple entries", however you need a valid I-20 to go with that.
Meaning that if you leave before you are finished, the school administrator either needs to sign your I-20 or issue you a new one.
Some schools may charge you a small fee for the paper work.

[dartagnan]

the TSA and the DHS dont know their own rules...
call 3 times, and you will get 3 times different answers.

Some people working at the DHS have no clue about visa.
One asked me what was a tourist visa!!!and I started to explain him HIS job.

anyway, I have given up my training in the USA, because noone of these US offices want fix THEIR mess with SSTR.

for the same course they can ask you to get a B2 visa, an M1 visa, a J1 visa, no visa and come illegaly,...

for my part, they asked me to come with a M1 visa, but the SSTR couldnt issue M1 as they are not approved for M1.
USA is not a reliable country for aviation training since 9/11.

[ForeverFlight330]

On my last visit out to the states (for flying purposes), I went to my flight school (which I had been to before on an M-1 Visa) to build hours and keep my licenses current. I went without a visa and travelled on the Visa Waiver programme. Upon arriving (I went via IAD so went through immigration there) I went through immigration where I was asked what I was doing in the USA. I simply said I was there to build flight hours and keep my licenses valid. I already have my licenses so I am not there to be taught / instructed on flight. The officer understood what I was saying and I was allowed entry into the USA.

I think there is a very thin line on whether a visa is needed or not. The best thing to do is check with as many people as you can, and knowing the visa system I’m sure everyone will give you different answers.

Check with the flight school, the US Embassy, TSA, the FAA maybe even, but do check and be 100% sure.

[chrisbl]

This stuff is not difficult.

any training lading to the issue of a licence or rating ,US or non US requires a M1 visa.

To get this you need to enroll in a flight school approved by the Immigration people who will issue you with an I-20.

This I-20 the allows you to register with SEVIS who monitor the student status.

Next you apply to the relevant US embassy for an appointment to get the visa. They will ask whether the I-20 has been issued before the will fix an appointment. More forms to fill I am afraid.

Once the visa is issues then there is the need to register with the TSA who will cross check with the flight school that you are a student of theirs and record your visa number.

Upon arrival at the school they will arrange for a photo to be taken along with your fingerprints and as long as your photo matches the photo in your passport, the photo taken on entry to the US and the visa phto you are good to go.

It seems a bit of a hassle but as far as I am concerned its their country and if you want to go there then you play their game.

I am sure there is plenty of scope for people trying to get round the rules but if you get caught then you could be thrown out of the country and not be allowed back ever.

If there is no training involved as any instructor time is currency related then no visa is needed. The visa waiver programme is fine.

[Flying Touareg]

Once the visa is issues then there is the need to register with the TSA who will cross check with the flight school that you are a student of theirs and record your visa number.


Has the rule changed now? i thought one could apply for the TSA befoore the visa?

[mcgoo]

I've always applied to TSA first and have done this time (September application), you don't need a visa for CPL either, just ME and IR

[chti71]

you don't need a visa for CPL either, just ME and IR

I thought any training resulting in a licence, the pilot has to have a visa (PPL, IR, CPL, ME, FI, ATP). Not for time building !!!

"Officials" like things in writing...If you are going to a flight school for time building, I suggest that you obtain a letter from the Chief Pilot explaining the purpose of your trip, with a friendly reminder for the TSA agent (who sometimes forget their own rules :ugh:) that this is not a training therefor no visa is needed.

Happy Flying,
Chti17

[BigGrecian]

Thought I'd try and clear a few things up with the relevant links; (Additionally, I would like to mention that the process in reality is NOT complicated or hard, it's just a matter of the school you choosing guiding you through the process, which they will have done many many times before.)

To complete flight TRAINING in the US you will probably require a VISA - cost of Visa dependant on Embassy circa £64 in the UK?
This is normally completed on a M1 Visa. You will need to apply to your school get an I20 and then book an appointment at your relevant embassy. Wait times and other relevant information for your Embassy can be found on Department of State website (http://travel.state.gov/visa/tempvisitors_wait.php)
Student Visas - look under M1 for vocational study - as this covers flight training (http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefits/StudVisas.htm) and Dept of State M1 Info (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1268.html)
J1 - Exhange Visa - used for Instructors (http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/tempbenefits/ExchVisit.htm) and Dept of State J1 Info (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1267.html)
If you are going to leave the US during your training;
M1 - you will need you I20 signed by the representive at your school for every trip you depart the country on; this allows re-entry subject to the standard entry to the US rules.
J1 - you will need your DS2019 signed by the representive at your school stating you are in good standing.

A SEVIS fee is required when have an initial M1 issued or change status or have an initial J1.
See http://www.fmjfee.com for more info. Normally $100

Regarding TSA for GA training;
TSA is required if you are completing licences or ratings as below:

An INITIAL Licence to fly in the US Ie Private SE(P) (ASEL as known in the US) including Foreign Licence Verification process.
Initial Multi Engine (IE for Private not needed for Commercial)
Instrument Rating

The TSA online application is at : https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov/ with the main TSA website at http://www.tsa.gov/. $100 plus $10 for fingerprinting (Can be completed at any US Police station rather than elsewhere which will be more expensive)
Also the Alien Flight School Program pages (http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/layers/afsp/editorial_multi_image_with_table_0215.shtm). Read the FAQ there and then contact your school if your in doubt

If you are doing any FAA Ratings or taking the FAA Commercial (and your licence is based on a foreign PPL) you must have a letter of verification see: (UK CAA Links included as it's governing authority for the majority of the readership)
FAA Form (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/media/verify61-75.pdf)
CAA Guide to Licence Verification Process (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_licence_verification_process.pdf)
CAA Form SRG1160 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1160.PDF)
No CAA form is ever complete without the Payment Method Form (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1187.pdf)
You may complete hour building without foreign licence verification on a US student pilot certificate, however you will be heavily restricted require multiple endorsements, and you woul dneed to check your individual school's policy.

If you get stuck on the process read the FAQs on the websites and then contact your school first they will know and should understand the process. You may see these as additional costs, but remember you will probably get continutity of training due to better weather etc. I suggest you include these costs in any plans you make. Why not make an excel spreadsheet and compare your options? (It will still probably be cheaper than flying in the UK LOL!)

If anyone spots any changes I'll happily amend the thread as necessary rather than letting this thread expand with speculation - this should help alleviate some people's queries.

[dartagnan]

good luck to understand the application process...

since I start to apply, they didn't stop to ask for my credit card number.

the TSA:130$
finger print:160$
travel to fingerprint center: 500$

(then by chance my application has been denied at this application stage , the I-20 was not possible for my school as they are a SSTR),
if green light from the TSA you can continue to pay :

Sevis for M1 visa:100$
Visa application with Us embassy 90$
visit to US embassy: 200$
application fee 90$
CAA form: 40 pounds????
trip to the USA: 1000$

(not sure of the costs)

in one year, they will ad some extra fees to pay for their new US-Berlin wall, because WE are going to pay for that too; it 's not going to cost 2 billion but 10-15 billion $ (they love to lie in Washington, time by 5 at least everything they say).

Do yourself a favor:do your training in Canada(first choice), Australia(second best choice), or Europe (last choice).

[mcgoo]

I'm still not too sure why you keep blaming the US government for your losses when seems to me that the school are at fault.

[felixflyer]

Does anyone know whether the VISA process for flight training in the US is simplified at all if the applicant has a UK MOD security Clearance?

[B200Drvr]

Depends what training you want to do, and for how long! I have just gone through the process and with a British passport, did not need a visa to do a type rating, I was there for 21 days.

[B200Drvr]

I have just done a > 12500 TR in the US. I am on a British Passport and did not require ANY visa. I got all my TSA stuff squared away, all the correspondence in a file and off I went. At immigration I told the official what I was doing, showed him the TSA approval and that was that. VIVA VISA WAIVER :D

[scroggs]

Does anyone know whether the VISA process for flight training in the US is simplified at all if the applicant has a UK MOD security Clearance?

Unless your flight training is for military purposes and to be carried out under NATO orders, I think it is highly unlikely you will be exempt the normal visa procedures.

Scroggs

[provo]

Whether or not a visa is required for a type rating seems to be an area where there is difficulty in getting a standard answer.

I'm hoping to be in the US later this year doing a type rating for an a/c greater than 12,500lbs. I'm going through the TSA process at the moment and hold a UK passport. It seems that most (if not all) the people that have undertaken TR training have done so on the visa waiver.

Is there UK passport holder out there who has been granted TSA authority to undertake TR training on an a/c greater than 12,500lbs and then been refused entry because they did not have a visa.

Secondly, and perhaps a bit optimistically, has anyone got the name of a responsible person at the US embassy who can provide a definitive answer to this recurring theme.

Provo

[MarDeFrance]

Hi every one

Lately the US issued a new system for the foreigners intending to study flying in its territory and to obtain the (TSA) approval before starting the training :ugh:

I would like to go for a type rating to add on my (FAA) license and the question is
- Dose this role include the EU nationals (France)?:{

ThanX

[smith]

I have a JAA ME/IR, I want to do a JAA CPL in FL. As I already have the IR my CPL is 15hours. Do I still need a visa? Iguess the answer is yes.

[B200Drvr]

Provo,
I have just done a greater than 12500, actually a 28450 type rating, on a FAA license I got pre 9 11, and did not have a visa on a British passport, I was told I did not need one by the TSA (visa sect) and by the training facility.
I am back at home with type rating and ATP in hand, with no problems at all, I was honest and up front with IMM. Official and showed him the TSA paperwork. Just have everything (paperwork) in order and available.
PM if I can assist.

[provo]

B200Drvr
Many thanks for the info.

It does seem that the visa waiver scheme applies to type ratings. I rang the US embassy and person there also thought that it could be done under the scheme.

Provo

[dartagnan]

here you will find more information about visa requirement in the USA.
as you can see, there is still a problem with the visa B.

hope this helps!
if you wish to receive this in a PDF format(the official information), PM me with your email address.

Transportation Security Administration
July 21st 2006


INFORMATION



Purpose


This document will serve as information and clarification on the Alien Flight Training Program and rule. Recent misunderstandings and misinformations regarding the suitability of immigrations documents and visas has resulted in confusion and misinterpretations of the rule by the flight training industry and TSA representatives.


Background


On September 20, 2004 , TSA published the interim final rule (IFR) establishing the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP) (69 Federal Register 56324, codified at 49 C.F.R, Part 1552). The IFR require FAA-regulated flight schools to notify TSA when a foreign student requests flight training, and require the student to submit to TSA identifying information, including his or her fingerprints, prior to beginning flight training.
Subsequently, the TSA uses this information to conduct a security threat assessment (STA)on a student in order to determine whether the student poses a threat to aviation or national security.


In conducting the STA, TSA works closely with other Federal agencies including the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Bureau of Customs and Immigration Service (USCIS), and the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), Department of State (DOS), and the Student and Exchange Visitors Information System (SEVIS).


As Part of the Supporting documentation used to vet candidates, The TSA may examine a Student's visa. Typically visas are not reviewed unless additional derogatory information is otherwise obtained. TSA queries ICE for an immigration status check on all candidates with possible derogatory information. As part of the immigration status check, ICE reviews visas for validity (i.e. not expired, revoked, etc.) and not appropriateness (i.e. B-1, M-1, F-1). ICE with then relay its findings to TSA for appropriate action, and this may result in denial of a candidate's flight training. TSA takes these actions solely at the advice of ICE—the agency responsible for enforcement of visa violations. TSA does not create visa policy , nor does it enforce visas. All actions taken with respect to visa violations are done so on the advice of ICE.


TSA , which does not have the regulatory or the expertise to make decision on the suitability of visa, works with the responsible immigration agencies and departments (ICE and DOS), to determine if candidates have the correct visa for the appropriate purpose. However, to date the information received from the various agencies has been conflicting and ambiguous and has led to confusion and inconsistent application.


Currently DOS and ICE appear to have conflicting views on the appropriate
of B visas for flight training. Department of State, Which has the responsibility for development of visa policy, contents that a B visa is appropriate for flight training. However, ICE , which enforces visa requirements, has asserted that B visas are not appropriate for flight training. Regardless of the type of immigration document and flight training candidate possesses, all foreign flight training candidates seeking to obtain those FAA airman certificate and ratings as outlined in the rule must undergo an STA.


Discussion


to resolve this situation TSA, has requested clarification of visa requirements from DHS HQ. DHS Policy has taken the lead to develop guidance and coordinate with ICE, DOS, and other involved agencies. It is envisioned that the guidance materials will clearly discern the proper visas for various types of flight training. Based on the forgoing, TSA representatives having security inspection responsibility and oversight authority for flight training providers will adhere to performing those inspections duties outlined within the PARIS prompts for the the respective regulated entity and other related TSA inspection guidance material and directives, and will abstain from making visa appropriate or validity determination until further notice, as appropriate.


Once a definitive decision is made regarding the appropriate visas for flight training purposes, TSA will ensure that flight school. ASI's, and other involved parties are informed. TSA will also revise its vetting and inspection process to accurately reflect the correct visa requirement.


In addition , the Office of General Aviation, which oversees the AFT program, is conducting flight school inspections to ensure that flight training providers are aware of, understand and are in compliance with the regulatory requirement of 49 CFR 1552. In addition , the Office is providing training for ASI's to ensure field units are able to conduct outreach and inspection visits at flight schools within their geographic areas of responsibility.

[Mercenary Pilot]

And what has this got to do with type ratings?

[dartagnan]

type rating is a training and require a visa.

[Mercenary Pilot]

No it doesn't! How many times do you need to be told!

YOU CAN NOT GET A VISA FOR A TYPE RATING!!!

[dartagnan]

do you mean to go to the USA without a visa?this is what you suggest?you story about upgrade training and the usual bla bla coming from nowhere is a total nonsens...

in this case, you should read carefully the letter of the TSA.
you need a visa for any flight training in the USA(b1-m1-f1...).
for type rating you need a tourist visa issued by the DHS and in this case it is the B visa (this is what schools say and I agree ).

the problem is one office doesn't recognize the tourist visa(the ICE, thats the one who inspect if your visa is alright), and in a certain way you are right, you can go to the USA with no visa and hope(based on their misinterpretations) they will not check you. If they do, they will ask you to leave the classroom and go home the same day(with TSA or without TSA authorisation).

Many students have been denied for improper visa (with a b2 visa) because the ICE says a B2 visa is NOTt appropriated for flight training when the DHS says you NEED a B visa (most school will tell you to come with a B visa based on DHS regulation, but in conflict with ICE regulations!!!).Visa Waiver is even less appropriated and in this case you should contact the TSA or your Embassy because I doubt they will let you in unless you lie.

Now I don't know what kind of game you are playing or if you work for a US school,
but if you have some evidences that you can go to the USA without a visa(for " an upgrade training" ) , let us know, I think the US authorities would be very interested who told you to come in the USA without a visa to make an initial type rating.

I will not answer to you, unless you prove me your facts.you may PM me if you would like to share your source of information.

at this time, this is under revision, the question is WHEN this problem of visa regarding aviation will be fixed?

[Mercenary Pilot]

For those who don't know dartagnan was rejected by the TSA as not suitable for training in the USA. He repeatadly starts these silly posts about needing a visa to do a type rating and has been told numerous times that YOU CAN NOT GET A VISA TO DO A TYPE RATING. Type ratings are covered under the visa waiver system so to sum up...You don’t need a visa to do a type rating! :ugh:

It is a vocational qualification as you already have to be a qualified commercial pilot to do a TR!

To do pilot training (i.e. CPL/IR) in the US you need to have a training visa which is an M1. For obvious reasons a tourist visa does not cover flight training.

Now I don't know what kind of game you are playing or if you work for a US schools,
but if you have some evidences that you can go to the USA without a visa , let us know, I think the US authorities would be very interested who told you to come in the USA without a visa.No game (unlike you with your blatant attempt to put people off travelling to the US because you feel begrudged that you are not welcome there) I do not work for any school, im a qualified airline pilot flying the Saab 340.

I have done 2 type ratings in the USA both times without a visa (because you don’t need one). All TR students travelling to the US do so under the visa wavier programme. This is fully acceptable by the Immigration dept. The US embassy told me to go to the US without a visa as did the FTO's because they are right and you are WRONG!

After reading your posts regarding NetJets (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=211598) (and other threads) you come across as very immature and If this was indicated to the TSA, its hardly surprising they rejected your application to train on heavy aircraft.

[dartagnan]

Type ratings are covered under the visa waiver system so to sum up...You don’t need a visa to do a type rating! :ugh:

.
thats the problem with you, lot of bla bla...no evidences.at least give me a link or send me something proving what you say.

please read my initial post, there is no need to insult me.Good for you if I am wrong and if you did 2 type ratings in the USA.I did 1 and I have been rejected for the second one several year later for improper visa.
I am warning students on this forum that at this time, there is a bug in their immigration system and you can lose your money and time if you are a selfsponsored students.
Better to wait until these problems are fixed.
thank you!

[Mercenary Pilot]

From the US travel webite. I have highlighted the relevent information. Type ratings are classed as business travel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which travelers may use the Visa Waiver Program to enter the United States?
Nationals of the 27 countries participating in the Visa Waiver Program may use VWP if:
The purpose of their stay in the United States is 90 days or less for tourism or business (if in doubt, travelers should check with the nearest Embassy or Consulate to verify that what they plan to do is considered tourism or business.Transit through the United States is generally permitted. Note that foreign media representatives planning to engage in that vocation in the United States are not eligible, as the purpose of their stay does not qualify as “business”. These professionals must obtain a nonimmigrant media (I) visa. See media visa (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1276.html) for more information. Also see Visitor Visas (http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html) – Business and Pleasure;
They present a machine-readable passport (MRP) valid for six months past their expected stay in the United States (unless country-specific agreements (http://foia.state.gov/masterdocs/09fam/0941104X1.pdf) provide exemptions). This includes all categories of passports -- regular, diplomatic, and official, when the traveler is seeking to enter the United States for business or tourist purposes, for a maximum of 90 daysDepending on when VWP travelers’ passports were issued, other passport requirements will apply. Please refer to the Visa Waiver Program Traveler Guide (http://cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/id_visa/vwp/vwp_timeline.ctt/vwp_timeline.pdf) on the United States CBP website for additional details on this program.

[itsbrokenagain]

I train at FSI 2 times a year, am a green card holder and need TSA approval. I know for a FACT they require foreigners to be on Student or Crew visas at the training centers I visit.

Why would any one in their right mind not bother to get a student visa for a $20000.00 type rating, what type of idiot would even risk such a thing!

Also what type of REAL professional pilot would even contemplate risking getting the visa denied stamp, or entry denied stamp on their passport when our professional is aimed at ...guess what.... travelling! and guess what we need to travel.... a passport, and who is going to be stupid enough to present that passport to their employer with the denied stamp in it. Sorry Mercenary Pilot maybe you are this idiot! , all I can say is good luck!!

Unless Mercenary Pilot you work for a TRTO here in the USA and can post some factual information, DO NOT enter such trash onto this site.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Why would any one in their right mind not bother to get a student visa for a $20000.00 type rating, what type of idiot would even risk such a thing!


YOU CANT GET A STUDENT VISA FOR A TYPE RATING!!!

itsbrokenagain you obviously have no idea what you are talking about!

[itsbrokenagain]

Call flight safety my friend, they can issue them.

I think we have put enough info in this thread now for wannabes to realise what they should do in this situation. ( ok I will spell it out, call the training provider and dont believe a Saab 340 pilot who has done it just twice on a visa waiver.)

End of posts by my on this subject, I have to go and look at the earth from FL 410 now for the next 6 hrs, have a great day!

[Mercenary Pilot]

Why have you just bought Concorde for your flight sim? :rolleyes:

Yes call the training provider (You should always do this anyway) they will tell you that they can't issue a visa for a type rating. Its a grey area in the regulations and for the time being can only be done on a visa wavier. You will not be turned away from the country because its the only way it can be done at the moment.

[gcolyer]

Type ratings are covered under the visa waiver system so to sum up...You don’t need a visa to do a type rating! :ugh:



I agree...however not all countries/nationalities are part of the VISA waiver program, So if you belong to one of those countries you are a bit stuffed, unless an M1 is accepted for each specific case.


(i.e. B-1, M-1, F-1).


An F1?? that is a spousal VISA..I think getting married to a US national is going a little to far just to get a TR!

So my question is..dartagnan is you country/nationality part of the Visa waiver program?

[ant1]

YOU CANT GET A STUDENT VISA FOR A TYPE RATING!!!

Really? (http://www.simcenter.cc/index.php) (this has already been stated in this thread)
Anyone who reads this thread and has investigated the matter will invariably come to the conclusion that there is a lot of confusion among agencies, FTO/TRTO's and Pilots.
Also let me remind readers that the requirements and TSA clearance process for a SSTR are different from those for an airline sponsored candidate.
Correct me if I'm wrong but from what dartagnan has posted Based on the forgoing, TSA representatives having security inspection responsibility and oversight authority for flight training providers will adhere to performing those inspections duties outlined within the PARIS prompts for the the respective regulated entity and other related TSA inspection guidance material and directives, and will abstain from making visa appropriate or validity determination until further notice, as appropriate. I come to the conclusion that for the time being TSA will not deny applications based on the candidate's visa status.

[LRdriver II]

Did a typerating(12,500lbs+ cat) last year in the US... No Visa requirement as I already hold the certificates. Just had to go thru TSA process and fingerprinting.
Also did recurrent this year and no requirement to have Visa, the school must inform TSA of you and if nothing is heard you just go there and train.

[dartagnan]

Mercenary pilot is right...(we talk about SELF-SPONSORED PILOTS,not CREW MEMBERS SENT BY AN AIRLINE)

you do NOT need a visa for type rating as long the TSA does NOT check your visa status WITH THE ICE.
If they check your visa status, you need a visa (you can not get it anyway ...)

2 situations:


1)

If you are the unlucky pilot, your file will be sent by the TSA to the ICE for visa inspection , and your application will be denied(only M1-J1-F1...) and as TSA has the final decision, your money is lost...

2)

If you are lucky (like Mercenary pilot), your file will stay in the TSA office, and you will be approved for flight training(even if you have no visa).


the bug is here: flight school who train pilot on flight simulators can not issue you an M1 visa, when the ICE asks for an M1 visa.
this bug in the system will reject automatically your application and you can not get an hearing or an refund.

some pilots have already been refused for flight training...(read situation 1)

and please,read this again: ICE with then relay its findings to TSA for appropriate action, and this may result in denial of a candidate's flight training.

well guys,they don't check always your visa, because the TSA knows your application will be denied and they won't see your $$$, but as they have to do their job, they pick one or 2 unlucky guys from the lot...and they screw up your application with no question asked(if you are the unlucky guy from the lot)....


I hope this situation will change soon because it is an unfair lottery, (and I do not talk about pilots who went in the USA and who had to buy a ticket to go home the same day ...)

[weasil]

An F1?? that is a spousal VISA..I think getting married to a US national is going a little to far just to get a TR!

So my question is..dartagnan is you country/nationality part of the Visa waiver program?

Not true. F-1 is an education visa for 4 year degree programs. The K-1 is the spousal visa.

[gcolyer]

Not true. F-1 is an education visa for 4 year degree programs. The K-1 is the spousal visa.

You are absolutley right...I stand corrected.

[Speedbird744]

Maybe someone could help,

The TSA application process state the minimum time before you can train seems to be a month on the form and no earlier. Today I was given permission to initiate training and my actual starting date is the 4th December, but on the form, because it was returned due to the fact that further information was required meant I had to put the 15th December and no earlier, because it was the 15th November when I completed it for the 2nd time. This minimum time of a month.

Quote from the website:
"After a candidate receives approval to train, they must begin within 180 days".

Does that mean I can still start flying on the 4th, since I've been given permission it just has a different starting date on my application.

If anyone knows what I'm actually talking about please help...

[mcgoo]

A quick google search!

I Need a New One - How Do I Apply?

To replace a lost, stolen, or mutilated USCIS Form I-94 (Arrival-Departure Record) or Form I-95 (Crewman's Landing Permit), you must file USCIS Form I-102 (Application for Replacement/Initial Nonimmigrant Arrival - Departure Document). If the USCIS Form I-94 or Form I-95 is mutilated, attach the original form. If the USCIS Form I-94 or USCIS Form I-95 was lost or stolen, submit a copy of the original USCIS Form I-94. If you do not have a copy of your original USCIS Form I-94, submit a copy of the biographic/photo page from your passport and a copy of the passport page that was stamped by immigration inspectors when you entered the country. If you cannot submit any evidence of your legal admission to the United States, submit a full explanation and proof of your identity.

If you are applying to extend your stay in the United States or change your immigration status, you will be asked to give USCIS your Form I-94. If you were not given an USCIS Form I-94 when you were legally admitted to the United States, file USCIS Form I-102. You will need to give USCIS proof that you were legally admitted to the United States. You should file USCIS Form I-102 at the same time that you apply to extend your stay in the United States or change your immigration status.

Forms are available online, or by calling 1-800-870-3676, or by submitting an online request to receive forms by mail. After receiving Form I-102, read it carefully and note the documentation that must be submitted. Detailed information is provided in the accompanying instructions for Form I-102. Further information on forms, filing fees, and fee waivers is available in Forms, Fees & Filing Locations.

[Engine Noise]

i am a flight student in the US with a multiple entry M1 visa.My question is if i want to travel out of US to visit my family and return for like two weeks,do i have to get another 1-20 or do i just represent the first 1-20 form at the port of US entry?
Secondly, if my spouse wishes to vist me briefly, what kind of visa is she qualified for?M2 or tourist visa?
tx

[B200Drvr]

d2k73
I wouldnt worry about it, most of the time you dont get asked for it, and there is no exit immirgration in the US. I travelled in and out every two weeks for 3 years, and lost more than one stub.

[mcgoo]

I've had to hand in my I-94 everytime i've left the US, it can cause problems if you don't because they will have no proof that you havn't overstayed your visa/visa waiver, there have been cases of people refused entry because of this.

[dartagnan]

at the airport, there is an immigration office, go there, and tell them you are leaving for 2-3 weeks.
they will do the paperwork for your reentrance in the states.If you leave the USA without telling them, they could say your visa is over and you will have to reapply for a new M1 visa.
you spouse can certainly come with a tourist visa or under the visa waiver prg if european.

[BigGrecian]

You must also ensure your M1 visa is signed by your school representative - otherwise you technically can't re-enter on your visa because they will assume you finished the course.

[renright]

I hope someone out there can help me with a query about the M1 visa. In the documentation I have received from the US embassy I am required to present proof that I will be returning home. The problem is since I am no longer in college and I have been working abroad for the last year and a half I don't have any proof of ties to Ireland.

Does anybody else know what would constitute proof that I will come home?

[B2N2]

Family ties, friends,fiancee, bank accounts in Ireland.
All that sort of thing.
Bring a letter from your employer stating the reason of your absence and the date you will go back to work.

[AHMC]

Hi Everyone,

I recently attended a visa interview for an M-1 Visa to attend a flight school in florida to do hour building and CPL and i have to say that i have never been treated in such a dis-tasteful manner as i was that morning.

Bit of background on me.


- British Citizen & lived there for about 20 years
- JAA PPL(A) Holder
- Hourbuilding Partially in Australia (have family out here)
- hold security clearances in UK and Australia
- never been in trouble with the law
- excellent training record
- Orginally from the Caribbean and my father was a pilot also - my name is of indian origin.
- have never been involved in terrorism or supported or condoned terrorism in any way

First you ring the flight school and tell them your requirements - they were very helpful and sent me the required info.

Second - fill out all the paperwork and send a request for an I-20 form

Third - register online with TSA, SEVIS and arrange an interview

Fourth - pay a fortune in application fees for TSA, SEVIS, (a pin number just to even arrange an interview!!!!!!!!!) and the visa application fee - roughly about $130 Aussie Dollars

Fifth - you turn up for the interview and are promptly told that the pictures are the wrong size. Their regulations say a) must cover >50% of the photo and b) must be so many mm by so many mm - you show them their regulations and they still blame you so you then have to walk for a mile to get some new passport photos done (this happens in 90% of cases i am told)

Sixth - you get basically stripped and everything taken off you. I was there with three others and we weren't even allowed to take a pen. This was questioned and his response was that there were pens up in the interview waiting room - i found out later that this was a total lie.

Seventh - bearing in mind that you have just been nearly stripsearched and had everything but the interview forms taken from you - guess what? - yes you are x-rayed again!! & this time your books go through some kind of electron scanner or something make sure that they are in fact made out of paper.

Eight - you wait forever to get called to each window - it really does take 4 hours sometimes

Nine - you eventually get to see an interview officer who doesn't even know what you want to go and do - so you kindly explain your intentions.

Ten - You get your response - bear in mind he hasn't even looked at my paperwork properly - just basically taken one look at me - who was smartly dressed and pretty credible and genuine and said...

US Immi: "You're application needs to go for some additional processing"

AHMC : "oh i see, what is that and how come?"

This process was then explained to me and the reasons were basically as follows - i paraphrase partly, for brevity and conciseness - the jist is still the same:

"Based on your name, skin color, hair color and the fact you wish to fly in the United States we believe you may be a terrorist. What we intend to do is send your application off to the CIA,NSA,FBI,DOD and everyother government agency in washington to see if we are right. We have no interest in having your 'kind' in the united states and hope that you do not pursue your application"

AHMC: "Well sorry to hear that but i would still like to pursue my application as it means a lot to me and i am not a terrorist - how long can i expect to wait?

US Immi: "well if you persist then it could take any where from 3-4months and even then you will have to pay another application fee and go through the whole process again...please don't apply and by the way times up - go wait for your documents in the waiting room - bye!"

At this point he said that in order for them to do this additional processing he need to get all the documents i had brought and make copies. I took great delight in watching his face drop as i handed him the following:

1) Full British Security Clearance
2) Full Australian Security Clearance
3) UK PPL(A)
4) Australian Pilots Licence
5) Two valid passports (one of which was UK the other a former british colony in the carribean)
6) Police Reference
7) Bank statements
8) proof of significant ties in the UK to return to

i then muttered the words "still think i'm a terrorist?:= " - he said nothing and sloped off slightly red faced.

Sorry for the length of this but i was totally disgusted and just wanted to warn anyone that isn't white and has a name which sounds foreign that you should expect to be checked and treated with distain by the US Immigration service. I had all the credentials required and was in many eyes "an exceptional candidate for a visa" but their policy now is to discriminate - so if you have suffered this type of discrimination then please don't feel alone.

I will be posting their emails on my website and will let you know the address if anyone is interested.

I would like to say - if anyone from US Immigration reads this -

I am proud of who i am, I am proud of my name and where I come from (Trinidad & Tobago) and i am proud of my creed.

You can call me anything you want just because some idiots enacted 9/11 but i will still succeed at flying whether it's in the US or anywhere else and shame on you for being so narrow minded. Not everyone who has a slightly foreign name is a terrorist.

To anyone else who has or does go through this - be proud of who you are and where you come from - it is a difficult world now for some but don't let this type of thing steer you away from you're plans. You will succeed - stay focused and your dreams will come true.

Best Wishes,

AHMC (http://www.letsventit.com)

[BIG MISTER]

I've been through this process twice and each time it has amazed me.

Sitting there for hours, being fleeced for your money and jumpping through checks which are quite frankly laughable.

I took 3 sets of passport photos so that they couldnt send me off down the road like they did last time, because my hair was slightly shorter !

Then of course the fun still isnt over. You can look forward to being treated like a criminal when you arrive at your destination too.....finally over....nop the chances are that you will also get turned over as you go back home !

Dont these people realise that they are dealing with people that are willing to kill themselves for their caluse. Filling in a couple of forms, having a photo done and then all of the other stuff is not going to put them off !

I'm sorry to read your post. This type of stereotyping should have died out long ago. If your are looking for terrorists these days then everyone should be treated as suspect.....and as London sadly discovered, that includes HOME GROWN.

HOWEVER as you have already said.....keep your goal in mind.

Its still a great place to visit on holiday and to fly.

As we say at work 'dont let the buggers grind you down' ! :}

[Flingingwings]

Hey Big Mister,
Knowing your dodgy past and demeanor I'm surprised they didn't insist on a body cavity search :E

[dartagnan]

I have stopped to discuss with the US immigration. and I am chocked to see how they treat us so badly when we come to spend our money in this stupid freaking country.

having being denied for a training in the USA (due to their mistake between US offices), a year later I received a job in europe. so I have spent gladly my money in an European school and not in the USA.

send to hell the US immigration and heir freaking TSA and go to fly in much nicer places like canada.

the USA has already lost 30% of his tourism.
tourists are more worry
about immigration questions at their US port of entrance than terrorism.

one of my friends has waited 6 months for his J1 visa, and he still waiting!!!!

this US immigration is a joke!:{
still better and faster to climb over the wall and run to San Diego than to wait hours in a US office for a stupid visa.


Pilots...,have fun in your jail in Guantanamo!!once you are there, you have no right anymore.

[BIG MISTER]

LOL - I have always been the last civi to leave a USA airport since I got the PPL!

HOWEVER as I say......still a great place to visit and to do your flying.

The exchange rate is such 'it would be rude not to' holiday in the USA !

Its there country, and its their rules.....I just wish UK were a bit more picky !

I wonder how many US types we turn away ?????

[Slopey]

Well, I can report a positive experience just over a year ago. In and out of the Belfast Embassy for the interview within 2 hours. Arrived in Orlando and sent off to the immigration room, 20 mins later and a quick chat (they'd never heard of Kazakhstan where I'd been 2 months prior on business and thought I may be a communist - but easily resolved) and I was through immigration and done. Piece of cake.

However, I would say - get your bottles in a row before you go to the interview. Make sure you have the proper U.S. passport photos (not UK size) and that you have everything they want - and that you've paid for the interview and have a receipt!

If you have it all boxed off, it's a no brainer. I counted 5 people before me in the queue who got bumped out of the embassy as they didn't have the required docs - and that's after the 2 hour wait! :ugh:

But it worked like a charm for me! :ok:

[BigGrecian]

I had no problems. No one at my school has ever had any problems and we're talking 100s of students here.
one of my friends has waited 6 months for his J1 visa, and he still waiting!!!!
Any problems I have ever heard of are induced by sponsoring organisation or you not having the correct paperwork in order.
Follow the instructions - don't interpret them! If you follow them you will have no problems. They are more than comprehensive enough - to cover nearly all of your questions.

[AHMC]

Hi guys,

Thank you for the replys.

I am glad it worked out smoothly for you BigGrecian & Slopey. Might i presume you are both white and don't have foreign (at least of arabic origin) names, and also i think one of you is HM Forces according to the profiles - so maybe this helped grease the wheels - i don't know.

I was merely talking from my personal experience and the things i was told which were pretty racist and discriminatory - he represented the US Immigration service as a whole and told me those things.

I also questioned regarding the hour building as this could be done without a visa as it is flying for pleasure and is eligible under the Visa Waiver Programme and he just laughed and said "don't even dare - you'll be sent back even attempting to fly in the US" - so i think that says it all.

One of the things i was highlighting was that i had all of my paperwork in order, every form I-20, Sevis Receipt, all the DS-15x's, all the supporting paperwork and the photo thing was sorted before the interview as i arrived in plenty of time.

As i said before i was told basically "you're not welcome" which based on my history and credentials was totally confusing and very difficult to understand.

The point i was making was that it was put across to me in a crystal clear fashion that because the US profile for a terrorist is somebody between 16-40 years of age, non-white skin (i have olive skin), black hair, and has an (arabic sounding name) then anybody fitting that profile was going to be scrutinzed considerably.

BigGrecian said in his email "100's of students" - just out of interest was it a flight school? and how many of those students had waited the 3-6months for the additional processing to be completed?

I am sure if i waited the the 3-6 months for this process to be completed they would have no choice but to issue me with a visa - mainly because i am not a terrorist and have always been of good character + my intentions are genuine. But 3-6months in someones plan is a huge chunk of time to break from training and i have decided to look elsewhere and write off the fortune i've already paid in fees just to get an interview.

This was my unfortuante personal experience - i hope it doesn't happen to anyone else but i am sure it will - because if the US doesn't realise that a terrorist could be anyone (of any creed, color, ethnicity etc) then this will happen to many other people and every time it does it will be racial discrimination - a very poor state of affairs.

Respectfully,

AHMC (http://www.letsventit.com)

[BigGrecian]

I applied for my Visa in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Only one Arabic gentleman at the embassy had problems when I was there - and that was due problems regarding his trip to Cuba.
It seems you got a short straw.
And yes, I agree with you - they do treat you like terrorist - until proven otherwise, rather than the other way round.
This has hit the tourist and Flying community alike over in the US.
Sorry to hear of your troubles - keep your chin up and good luck with your flying.

[AHMC]

Thanks for your kind words and yes like all us pilots we always have a plan b,c,d etc some times too many plans!!:)

It is a shame though - i think the US is great for pilots and tourists and it would be nice one day if things were slightly different. i.e they treat you like a human being first, but i think this day is a long time off from now.

Good luck with your flying also.

[Gez]

Hi All

I cut the crap and went to Canada instead of the States. Canada is internationally renonwed for their pilot training, and the standard of the schools over here is much higher than in the States. The prices are more or less the same too.

In Canada you don't need a student visa if you're staying less than six months. Even if you would apply for a student visa, the process is pretty straight forward and fast, so much easier than in the States. You will not be asked any insinuating and insulting questions when you apply for it either!

I'm doing my JAA training at Moncton Flight College in New Brunswick and I am really happy with the instruction and the school as a whole.

I think it's about time pilot cadets stood up against the way that the US are treating their international students.

Gez

[young1]

Hi All,
I have just been reading some of the nightmares people are having applying for US Visas. Being a British Citizen I was discussed to read about how US immigration dealt with AHMC. I have never trained or flown in the US so can not say that I have encountered any such troubles. I have however recently completed my CPL/MEP in Canada at Mocton Flight College, where I had no problem what so ever. In fact because my stay was going to be less then 6 months I needed no such visa. I strongly suggest that anyone thinking about applying for a US visa for aviation training purposes think again, try Canada (Moncton Flight College). It is not only the immigration in Canada that is superior to the US, the training is also of far better quality.

[nibi786]

Hello All, In particular AHMC.
I have been through exactly what you have been through. I understand this is frustrating but our friends cannot seem to grasp the concept of using their heads (typical Y****) lol, bit about me:
Name: arab origin
mode of study: Modular/Degree (its an all in one thing)
security: Currently CRB cleared by the RAF (i am a reservist) and i have NEVER been in trouble with the law, a model citizen :ok:
by the way - being a degree course, theres 32 people applying with one common case at the us embassy.....and i was the only one to be rejected. after everyone departed without me i waited and called them everyday - but their ignorance persisted....Fortunately i found the BEST flying school in canada where the people are REALLY REALLY FRIENDLY. i have not got to get a visa and at the same time i got expert training at the Moncton Flight College. I now thank the yanks (oops - oh well i was gonna say it) for the godsend and am returning to Moncton for further training - bottom line if they waste your time do not put up with it - stand proud, chin up and go elsewhere! let them spend their money doing research - my taxes are not going there :P
I applied on May 10 and got a reply on August 9....seriously, dont hang around, i didnt
Nibi (happy to answer any questions, just message me)

and rememeber - these people are the people that believe in 'friendly fire' :uhoh:

[Rob's Dad]

Young1
"I have never trained or flown in the US so can not say that I have encountered any such troubles". "It is not only the immigration in Canada that is superior to the US, the training is also of far better quality". :=

I am currently in the US doing my ME CPL and IR and had no problems WHAT SO EVER with either getting a M1 visa, the TSA approval, or in getting my PPL validated. I can well believe that the Canadian immigration service are probably more polite and helpful than their US counterparts (particularly the obnoxious TSA at Chicago O'Hare) but how can you be so emphatic that the training is better?

Anyone who has experienced both US and Canadian training care to give a qualified opinion?

[HELOFAN]

Hmm.
I am 33yrs Aussie now doing my PPL to CFII rotor in the USA.
J1 visa.
Lived in abroad 4 yrs and applied abroad and was accepted.
Though Iwill suggest not applying at a consulate that is (1) a 3rd world country & (2) busy as hell ( Kingston Jamaica ) as there are hundreds or more of folks every day wanting a US visa, even the application times just for the appointment can be 90 days ( other countries like Mexico 6 months or more ) look on line for us consulate locations and find one that isnt so buys if you are able... sucked to be me but you can apply ( i did ) for an emergecy appointment ...separate ...longer line :zzz:
Yes the paper work is intensive , lots of history to bring up & I have been around the world around 5 times, stayed in a lot of different countries and moved a million times.
Took me a week to put it all together and a fair few rum'n'cokes/beer to remember all the stuff I needed.

Word to the wise - keep as much of your personal paperwork together in an expandible folder ( or what ever ) it does come in handy ( thanks Mum for that advise about 20 years ago )
:ok:
I am ex military type as well in a field that had me doing things that I thought may not be that well appreciated but turns out they were ok with.
BE HONEST else they will kick your ass out if they find out later.
The whole thing took ages to do , applications to different agencies copies of this and that ( I am surprised there is any color on my passport left do to being copied a million damn times ).
If anyone stops you at anypoint or you even talk to anyone at any point ...they WILL photocopy your passport !!
READ ALL THE DOCUMENTS THEY REQUEST AND NOTE ALL FINE PRINTS the must haves and so on ( eg photo size etc.. I brought mine in not cut from each other yet & they guy was not going to even let me join the cue #2 of 10 or so.
He cut me a break and got them cut for me ..nice guy... it meant leaving and coming back and rejoining the cue... not good.
I still owe that guy a beer !
CHECK CHECK AND DOUBLE CHECK Everything bfore you go , 100 times, you dont want to go back.
And I saw heaps of applicants turned out the door just for not having their $&!t together
$$$.. money money money, its cost around $435 USD bucks in application fees ,, Consulate appointment , CEVIS, TSA, Fingerprints :eek: - Yes even fingerprints... LOL become a suspect = free , become an applicant = $30..thanks hell it gets done even when you enter the US at immigration for free on a visitors visa.
Also gets done again once you get here & guess what .. pay for that too.
:eek:
I even laughed about the $105 for just being an aussie:confused: , its true. Turns out we dont cut US student applicants a break on their application fees so the US does the same thing back ( thats exactly how it was explained to me ) just before I had to leave the consulate & the cue :ugh: , get more cash, rejoin cue #1 :zzz: ( gets you in to join cue #2 to get back to cue # 5 :zzz: and start again ( did this 2 times :ugh: ....:hmm: saw it coming though ) turns out some fees must be paid cash and some dont have to . LOL hmm that was a great day. ( Yes I had to leave the consulate 2 times , once for cash and 2nd time for a receipt from the Parcel service for the my passport delivery ( oh yeah $$ there too )
:ugh:
Also had to leave cue #6 to pay the next bit then had to do it again cause they didnt take cash at that window & had to go back downstairs to pay it there .....:ugh: OMG what a system.
Anyway other than that, the interview was good & the folks friendly.
It was approved that day & I got my passport with visa back a day early 3 days total wait.
:D
Keep copies of everything that you send off or receive back even via e-mail & take it all with you and copies of the copies...trust me that helped on that one. ... everything , anything relavent & dont lose anything , even the little piece of paper ( immigration card) you got when you enter the country after all is approved , you must keep it with your passport and such else you cant get the other things you need to get & it will be asked for. KEEP ALL THE APPLICATION STUFF TOGETHER FOR EVER ...DO NOT SEPERATE IT := , I still 4-5 months after entering the country get asked for things.
IS IT WORTH IT ? I hear you scream at your monitor.
hell yeah , I am flying helicopters now and couldnt be happier.
To tell you the truth I think the application process was pretty easy, sure its a drain on you and the old noggin & its takes a full day to go through not including all the application time preparation prior to the big day ,
Do you want it or not ?
I am glad I did it , I love flying helicopters.
:cool:
Cheers
HF

[chrisbl]

I have to say that I have had little trouble getting the M1 visa but then I am white middle aged with a good job and home and family in the UK and clearly no incentive to stay in the US beyond the duration of the visa. I also have the means to properly fund my visits.

That makes a good starting point for minimum hassle. I would suggest that anything that varies from that starts to make things a bit more difficult.

The US approach does have some logic to it, you may not like it - tough.

[rosewellian]

If I have already been signed of by FAA MEI as ready for flight test would I need any VISA to do the FAA Multi Check Ride with a DPE. Or do check rides also constitute training and therefore require a VISA

[B2N2]

Well, where did you train?
If you trained outside of the US for an FAA rating or license you should have gone through the required background check and finger printing.

No flight school or FBO in the US will rent you a twin for a check ride based on the fact that you have a sign-off from a MEI.
You will have to do a check-out with one of their instructors and since you do not hold the ME rating on your US license that constitutes training towards a rating or license.
Therefore I would say that you need a visa.

[rosewellian]

Thanks B2N2, I have about 8hrs multi training done in the USA back in 2004
was hoping to do a bit of refresher with FAA MEI based in UK in rented Seneca2 and get sign off with him so that on arrival apart from an hour or so familarisation in the local area I could get straight into the check ride.

The purpose of getting the FAA Multi rating added to my Unrestricted FAA license is so that I can fly a seneca3 which I have purchased and which will stay on N reg from Florida back to UK in March (albeit in conjunction with route experienced ferry pilot). (I already have Instrument on my FAA ticket and multi/IR endorsement on my UK licence)

To solve the renting of a/c for check-ride I was considering using my own a/c for the area familarisation and check-ride but not sure how that would wash with the DPE or my insurance company.


At the end of the day if I need the M1 visa I will just accompany the ferry pilot for the experience and return to the states as soon as I get the VISA which I think takes 2-3 months to come through

[class a]

I believe you can do you flight test with Tom Houston over in Norwich he has just got his FAA Examiners ticket I believe he is the only one in Europe now might save you any hassle

[rosewellian]

Tom was very helpfull to me and I was going to do check-ride with him but if you check his website www.businessair.us you will see that due to circumstances beyond his control that is no longer the case

[B2N2]

From their website;

# Ground School (Formal four day course with LaserGrade exam included)-£675.00
# Ground School (Hourly rate)---------------------------------------£45.50
# LaserGrade Exams (Excluding Designated Pilot Examiner & Inspection Authorization)------------------------------------------------------£155.00
# LaserGrade Exams (Designated Pilot Examiner & Inspection Authorization)------------------------------------------------------£275.00
# Biennial Flight Review (Includes one hour ground & one hour flight. DOES NOT INCLUDE AIRCRAFT)-----------------------------------------£165.50


These prices are fairly outrageous.
They also claim to be the only one in Europe providing these services....
But Flight safety in Paris and http://www.n-flight.com/ in Egelsbach Germany also provide these services.

Ros, the way you describe it you might very well be able to do it without a visa considering that you are only in the US for the checkride.
This is one of the many situations where the TSA website or others don't offer a solution.
Officially your MEI in the UK should have taken the TSA CFI security awareness training and taken you through the finger printing process in the UK.
The finger printing and background check is required for training for a US license or certificate inside AND outside of the US.

DPE will want so see proof of insurance, proof of annual and relevant inspections taken care of. Should not be a problem.

[2close]

Off topic but can anyone who has recently gone through the process advise me on the duration of the J1 / M1 Visa application process from first form completion to the earliest date you can set foot on US soil?

Thx.

[Rob's Dad]

2-close

I'm in the US now with an M1 visa (done CPL and MER just my IR to finish). Waiting time for embassy was only 2 weeks and it was about 3 days after the visit there that I received the visa by courier. So in theory 3 weeks, but I'd suggest factoring in some delays. Make sure you have all your 'ducks in a row' though re paperwork as any problems at the embassy and you are looking at another 2 week delay - and they do check you have everything.

RD

[davey147]

How many M-1 visas can you have. Is it a case of getting the 12 month one, then going home and applying for another?

Ive heard that the embassy in Dublin have an arrangement to issue 10 year M-1 visas. Has anyone else heard this?

[2close]

Cheers RD. Much appreciated.

Davey, I may be mistaken but I was informed you can only hold one visa and only be issued one visa - once you've used that up, it's the end - but that doesn't ring quite true.

Let's take Mister Beckham, no right of residence, not essential labour, not setting up any business that is going to employ loads of US citizens, not on any training program but somehow gets a visa to work in the USA for x years.

If your face fits, you get, if not, back of the queue pal!

I was also told by a US FTO that once you've arrived in country armed with your M1 / J1 visa you are limited to leaving the country for periods of no more than 3 weeks - any more than that and you don't get back in on that visa. Anyone got any experience of this?

2close

[davey147]

You definately can have 2, because Ive had two. I would just like to go again for more than a year.

[acebk]

Hello im about to start my training in a month at Mazzei Flying Service.
Im going for My CPL with ME and IR rating. I have to question.

1. I have not yet gotten my M1 visa can i still go ahead and submit a training request?


2. I will have to do 3 training request, one each for PPL, ME and IR. I will submit them all at once, will i have to pay $130 each totaling to $390 or will i just pay $130 for all?


Thanks

[HELOFAN]

Read my thread above , though that consulate was a pain it was pretty easy.

Now , I understand from others that have tryied to re apply for another Visa & been denied, you cannot get a J1 visa for the same course, though if you did a CPLH instead of another CPLA then you should be ok.
The M1 visa can be re issued over and over ..thats why folk come in part time get the course section completed and come back when their work permits.

On the Beckham thing......ARE YOU DAVID BECKHAM? LOL

Celebs have a different path besides think of all the musicians touring etc

Other than that, PM me if you like & I can tell you more


HF

[arms2serve]

Hello everyone,

I've read many of your posts and found even people in a country like UK find it hard to get a US visa.

Let's take a look at my situation and try to figure out what chances do I have to get an M-1. I am 24, live in Pakistan, am willing to train in a US flight school, and I'm a Christian.

In 2005, I applied for a visit visa to attend my cousin's wedding. But after a few rather silly questions by the interviewer I was told I am being denied a visa because "guys my age go there and don't come back". Why they still accept application from "guys my age" obviously I can't ask anyone. One problem I could think of from my case is that they don't care to thoroughly inspect the intention of the applicant. Asking a few question and making such a decision doesn't really help someone's hopes of ever getting a visa. Although I took my Baptism certificate to prove I'm a Christian in case they may have acute Islamophobia, but they didn't really care whether I was or not.

All I want to know is what do these guys really want from a person applying from a country like Pakistan?

[davey147]

I dont think it matters where you are from, but you do have to prove to them that you will return to your home country.

Either by, a letter from your employer stating that you are to return to work in xx amount of weeks.

Or ties in property, business, family.

You must prove the above or you wont get the visa, that applies to all people no matter where they are from.

You may now find it difficult to get a US visa, as you have been denied it once before. You need to speek to your embassy for further info.

The embassys main concern is that you wont remain in the USA illegally, thats why they ask the questions.

[arms2serve]

I had with me the sponser letter which was sent to me by my cousin whose wedding I was to attend, who is a US citizen and I had all the property documents with me but it didn't work out, all he said was "guys my age don't come back".

[aeroweb340]

Hi,

I'm currently living in USA and working as a flight instructor under J-1 Visa.
I'm planing to get my type rating in USA also...

My J-1 was issued by my Flight School... If i understood well I need an M-1 Visa or I can go with my J-1 ?

[Pjlot]

Hi aeroweb

As far as i am aware from speaking to a flight school in the US that i am considering attending if you hold a valid J1 visa you don't neet to apply for a M1. The J1 is a student visa that allows you to earn money and also study as well.

So as long as your J1 is valid and with in date, you don't need to apply for another visa. I'm sure you flight school will be able to advise you on the matter.

[satdeep]

I am an Indian National. I intend to join FSI on a J1 visa for acquiring CFI, CFII and MEI. I realise I will be allowed to work till 24 months and then I have to leave. I would like to work in US as a CFI for 2-3 years.

My question is simple, the answer to which I am assuming is not so simple. Can non-US Nationals work as CFIs in US? What are the possibilities of working as a CFI in US after the J1 expires? Can I apply for a visa change midway? If not, what kind of visa would I require to work as a CFI in US? How easy or difficult is it to comeby? What is the process? Any advice on this topic will be welcome.

Regards
Satdeep

[pilotincommand]

If you use you're 2 years in the United States on a J-1 you then become 'ineligible' for 2 years unless you can get them to give you a waiver.

There is no legal status for a CFI other than J-1 as the job does not meet the criteria for H-1B and the Green Card, if you can find a sponsor, has a long waiting time as a CFI would be regarded as a Third Preference occupation. I believe the wait is currently about 6 or 7 years. Your potential employer would also have to file with the Department of Labor to show they can't find an American to do the job. Basically, this is never realistically going to happen.

[satdeep]

Thanks for the heads up, Pilotincommand.

Then maybe I am better off opting for the J1, get as many hours as I can, go to India (I stay in Mozambique Africa. I have the green card equivalent in Mozambique) , have my license converted (DGCA-sigh..) and then look for employment as a Flight Instructor. Since, I want to instruct for two to three years before trying the airline industry.

How does the plan sound? Any further inputs will be helpful.

[MartinCh]

arms2serve,

Man, sorry to hear about your bad luck.
As davey mentioned, you're more likely to be viewed as 'denied applicant' besides other, more relevant factors. Having baptism cert won't change anything.

We're not equal in the eyes of US. You can clearly see it in so-called VISA WAIVER PROG. aka VWP. It's countries that are considered 'safe' in regards of 'overstayers' for whatever reason. Besides the fact that US economy would lose out in tourism should there be even fraction of hassle we have to go through for heli/plank training in the US - that meant for regular visitors.

There's many factors and internal policies US embassy/consulate employees consider. One too many. Not official, not clear this and that yes no, also, all based on decision of certain employee following their set rules and his own pinch of judgement. Call it however you want.

what davey says is right. But not absolute truth. They do make differences between citizenships and countries of residence.
If it's short M1, few months, you might get letter from employer stating they'll take you back or keep you in unpaid employment during that time.
But don't push it with some promises of getting back the job after year or two. That's just silly.

I'm from Slovakia. I'm going to US with my Czech passport (family, history, descent) as it's safer bet than Slovak passport. Although I have to admit I have/had that one as well.

ALWAYS, always, visitor visa is harder to get than student visa or sponsored temporary employment, J1s etc. US is driven by business. If you showed loads of bucks and saying you wanna spend it there and fast, I bet the outcome could have been better. Now you have been stained by denied visa interview which would stay with you for few years after.

In any case, do not attempt to go to the US on the same visa you were denied. Two years are bit safer.

Though, there's the factor of your nationality and residence.
What can I say? It's obvious. IF you were Pakistani national living in some Western Europe country legally and had some history and 'ties' there, it'll be another story. Yes, your age is 'critical', but.. That's just 'polite fook off' they told you I believe. They can't tell you "sorry, you're not rich/whatever enough for a Pakistani". It's called 'political correctness' :-/

I first went to US on summer work visa - J1. Not internship J1, just 4 months work visa. Only because I studied FT Uni at that mo.
That time it was much harder to get tourist visa unless loaded with lucrative job and some properties in Slovakia. I wouldn't get B1/2 for sure.
Czech nationals were better off. Some scored 10yr tourist visa (6mth max stay in one go) and went to US to work there illegally.
Lots of people consider embassy interview for B visa as taking part in lottery..

I wouldn't dare to apply for B1/2 visa in the past and even now.
Why? 'Cos I got second class passports. You? You got third or fourth class one. Sorry to say so, but it's truth. Having property in Pakistan doesn't guarantee that much either.

I got my M1 for summer in the US without any hassle (not counting lots of $$ in fees, headache filling out DS forms, premium no for interview in the UK etc). I can't say I wouldn't get it in Czech or Slovakia, but having lived in the UK, there'd be no point going 'home' for many reasons. I have 'ties' to this place. They see me as someone living here for a reason and somewhere comparable to US in terms of earnings (or better) so it's not the same as going from poor/er country to the US.

You know what? they asked me how long I've lived in the UK. I said 3.5 years. They did not even ask/look at all the docs I prepared such as career break about keeping my (waiting) job during time away, all the certificates I gained in the UK etc.
I live in 'safe' country with 'reasonably safe' passport. All they wanted was proof of funding and proper I-20 with DS forms. THEY DID NOT EVEN LOOK AT SEVIS payment confirmation. Something one HAS TO get before interview.

I know I wail/rant bit too much about myself.
I wanted to give you an example. I was confident, but not 100% sure.
I even mentioned that I want to check out the school for possible J1 visa in few years' time. Kinda no-no, talking about possible WORK in the US.

I won't apply for risky visa to US so as not to screw up my future VWP eligibility whether with UK passport or other (maybe).


RE your family:
I've heard some stories of people not getting tourist visa for having family in the US. It's good in a way for 'invitation letter' but they might also consider family as a reason to overstay. As you know, having US cousin doesn't really help in getting green card. Theoretically under specific circumstances, very unlikely de iure maybe..

As it's two years, get your paperwork together, get I-20 or DS-2019 from desired school and you'll see. If it doesn't work, you have to contend with Canada, Australia and NZ. All fine if you can still afford your plans in these countries. Although, you have to consider whether spending 400-500 USD just for a 'try' is worth it. Explain reason etc in one of the DS forms.

You're not off to easy start with first visa appl denied. Once you manage to get visa, be wise, adhere to all rules and it'll make life easier should you need it once again in future.
Good luck.

[homebase_szg]

Hi everybody,

after doing internet research on this subject and getting concerned about all the different posts, I´d like to share my experience for those who are in the same situation as I was:

What I did:
- 3 weeks typeraing in DFW (CAE Simuflite/Bombardier)
- additional 2 days in USA due to flights

My data:
- JAA ATPL(A) /w several typerating
- US license based on JAA license
- EU citizen

What I did:
- all the TSA fingerprint stuff (www.flightschoolcandidates.gov (http://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov))
==> received final approval from TSA + confirmation from training provider

Immigration:
- everything was simple and quick
- immigrated with TSA papers ready based on the Visa Waiver Program ONLY
- checked "business" on the "Visa Waiver Form"
- Immigration officer asked for business reason - showed him the TSA approval
- HOW SIMPLE WAS THAT ...

Attention:
Be arware that USA is inroducing the "Electronic System for Travel Authorization" (ESTA). Beginning August 1, 2008, the Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) will be accessible via Internet for citizens and eligible nationals of Visa Waiver Program (VWP) countries to apply for advance authorization to travel to the United States under the VWP.
ESTA will initially be available in English only. Other languages will follow. Effective January 12, 2009, all VWP travelers will be required to obtain an electronic travel authorization prior to boarding a carrier to travel by air or sea to the U.S. under the VWP.

More information ncan be found here:
http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/id_visa/esta/esta_intro/esta_english.ctt/esta_english.pdf

Take care.
homebase_szg

[Icerman]

I have an M1 visa for the US and would like to change my school. As far as I understand since I'm already on a visa in the US I wouldn't have to do anything else but go to another school. Am I right?

[BigGrecian]

Contact your new school and I'll ask whether they are M1 approved.

If they are your old school has to effectively "release" you on the computer system. This must be done within the first 6 months after the date you were admitted to the USA. The old school cannot refuse to transfer you (Unless you break contract blah blah then they could cancel your visa)

The new school then accepts you and they become your sponsoring school.

Another way to do this is through a http://www.uscis.gov/propub/DocView/afmid/dat/I_539.PDF but your much better off going through your school's immigration officials, as it will save time, and money!