Why £50000 and not £25000

[kezza]

Hi I,m relatively new to this forum but over the last few months researching flight schools and looking at this forum my question is this.
Why pay £50-£60000 to train at Oxford or Jerez, when advertised in flyer you can train at Stapelford or in Florida for example for about half that. As much as I can make out you come out with the same rating's and hours. Is the name on the C.V. worth double the money.
I ask this because as a 34 wannabe with two little kids I don't have that kind of dosh lying around, am I being unrealistic or not?.
Anyway all positive replies would be much appreciated.

Cheers from Kezza <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Wireless]

Be very wary of prices quoted in magazines. Often the lower end prices work on a basis of you passing everything first time, and unless you are the dog's shericals you may well need resits/retests etc, which aren't cheap if your'e on the JAR route.

The 25K price sounds fairly reasonable if you are going by the modular route. This allows you to train at your own pace, saving up for each new segment of training as you progress. It takes longer than integrated training, but at least your'e on the way <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

PStar

[scroggs]

See this thread: <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=011808" target="_blank">Modular Wisdom Gained The Hard Way</a> for a very good analysis of the true costs of obtaining an ATPL. It may be that the examples quoted don't exactly replicate the schools you're considering, but it's sure as day that the prices quoted will be the minimum achievable!

[QUERY]

Some merit in your query but what/where would £25k get you?
Let's have some details and a fair comparison.

[Pilot Paul]

Don't forget to figure in lost earnings if you are giving up/suspending another career to study for ATPL's or train for CPL/IR - depending on how much you would normally earn this can increase the effective cost of a frozen ATPL to well over 100 big ones - ouch!

Pilot Paul

[Jockflyer]

Kezza,

I'm sorry to tell you, but a Frozen ATPL, with Perf A and an MCC, isn't going to happen with 25K.
The prices you see quoted are minimums, without test fees, living expenses, licence fees.

Its going to cost at least 40k, and thats without considering loss of earnings.

If ANYONE on pprune has done it for less, I would be amazed.

Be wary of people posting replies to you, who haven't actually gone through the process. I have and it cost me 45k.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

JF

[bow5]

I never understand why people keep banging on about adding lost earnings into the equation. Why bother? If you haven't got them, you haven't lost them. You will be training for a career you want to do so it's not a problem. Saying a £40,000 ATPL course will actually 'effectively' cost you £60,000 because of loss of earnings is bloody stupid.

It's like saying taking time out the day to buy your lunch means loss of earnings so your lunch effectively costs you 50 pence more. If you don't want 'loss of earnings' go and do something else.

Kezza, like Jockflyer says, I'm one of the ones who hasn't been through the mill (I will do V. soon) but I agree, £25,000 will probably get you about 3/5ths through the ATPL course. People keep banding around increasingly riculous figures for ATPL training - the best bet is to contact the schools and find out exactly what they offer for the money and compare them.

Best of luck.

[kezza]

Thanks people for your replies,I realise that everything is quoted on bare minimum but I'm sure that by paying Oxford £60000 I'm not gauranteed first time passes either.
Due to my charity work in feeding starving children (my own)I can't see hour I would be able to do a full time integratred course anyway.
The schools I was looking at are Stapleford flight centre in Essex, and European flight school in Florida, and no I don't work for either of them.
Keeping in mind that I might not pass everything first time isn't £25000 a better starting point than £50000, provided that I get quality training of course.
Anyway thanks so much for everyones input.

Cheers
<img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[scroggs]

Kezza,
the point is that you will not achieve your fATPL for £25k. At Oxford or Jerez, the price quoted includes most, if not all, of the things not allowed for by that misleading £25k figure. Check out that thread I told you about in my last post; experience would suggest that a modular fATPL will cost you at least £40k. There is no point in convincing yourself (or your family, or bank manager) that it can be done for less. All you will suceed in getting is a £25k debt, no licence and no job.

[sam white]

I am half weh hey hey thru a modular course, I looked into oxford, in fact i looked into most schools in the world i think. I gave up work having saved a bit. I reckon I can finnish it all for 30k. I got my PPL in the states, came back. went out again to build hours. THEN gave up work.
Oxford does look good on a CV. Do you get treated like an ODD one out being non-sponsored student at oxford?? I was under the impression that you do, but you will need to ask someone studying there to find out. I am going through London Guildhall, they have been good and are cheap, they also have a proven track record. There are many ways to do it cheaper than 50-60k. If you have a family etc. it may be worth taking some time to find out the real facts about schools.
Yes you come out at the end with the same license, but know this, you HAVE to do the CPL/IR (flying) in the same country as the ATPL ground (fact).
In short, I am paying for accom/living in London for 6 mnths, all my courses and exam fees, and have realisticly budgeted 30k. This includes a ppl in the states. But i am not there yet!
My opinion, stay in england!(except for ppl)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think it will cost you £37,000 to go Modular and £52,000 to go integrated.

This takes into account time living at home versus away, all travel, materials, living expenses and fees.

Some people may be able to do it for less. I did. But they usually have special circumstances.

Good luck,

WWW

[Jockflyer]

Bow5,

I'm going to do my best not to patronise you here, but I can't promise anything.

I don't know how old you are, or what your life experience is, but I think you need to learn a few things.

This guy has indicated he has a family. He presumably also currently has a job. Lets say he gets paid 25K a year. He uses this to feed/cloth/house his family and probably doesn't have a huge amount left over.

He then decides he wants to be a pilot. To do this he must give up his job for a year. Therefore he doesn't get paid. So the opportunity cost of giving up the job to do the training is 25k in lost earnings. His family still has to be fed/clothed/housed, these are fixed costs which he must still bare.

Do you see what I'm getting at. If not buy a pair of bigger glasses.

Try to listen to what people are telling you and others. We have been through it, and have the scars to prove it.

I'm sorry if you take offense to this, but you did effectively call me stupid in your post.

Good luck to all.

JF <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Pilot Paul]

Jock,

Couldn't agree more!! For those of us with mouths to feed who are switching careers (my choice I admit) lost earnings are a real issue, not to mention the reduced income that follows once you finally manage to hop from the top rung (or near it) of one ladder to the bottom rung of another.

Still like most wannabe's my desire to fly for a living exceeds my desire to simply earn money and carry on in the same old rat race...

Good luck to us all...

Pilot Paul

[erika]

Hi folks,

I'm planning on heading down the London Guildhall/ Stapleford route too, starting this May. Going to visit this week to see what it is like.

I aiming around the 35,000 pound mark with the Flight Instructor rating, minus the PPL, including fees, accom, food and misc. Suppose I'm being obtimistic, but we'll see. I've included everything except resits and the unexpected - which I suppose has to happen. Then I have to convert this to Euro to make it look even worse.

I've looked at alot of courses, and even though the integrated ones include most of the fees, and with all things considered, they still are hughly more expensive. Cabair is the only one that comes close when like for like is compared. The time factor isn't even that much different. What I'm asking really, is the difference worth paying? Why should I pay 10 or 20 grand more? I know that employers prefer integrated graduates - but are there other things, that I'm missing?

Erika.

[greengage22]

It's time, as much as anything, that you save by going through a residential course. The flying success rate is pretty much the same anywhere, but the ground school is not.

Suppose you do a distance learning course, or do a residential ground school at a school with a poor pass rate track record. Say you pass 8 out of 14. Two months delay. Resit 6, pass 4. Two months delay. Than pass (or maybe not) the last 2.

Compare this with one of the ground schools with a higher pass rate track record. Full residential modular and a good chance of 14 first-time passes in 5 months. It means that you're available to work as a pilot 5 - 6 months earlier. Average new FO pay? Perhaps about £25K pa. That's ten to twelve thousand pounds difference in earnings. Suddenly the 'expensive' schools don't look quite so expensive any longer.

Of course, that argument assumes good prospects for pilots, ie, not the post Sep 11 situation. But some people are already seeing signs of recovery.

[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: greengage22 ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have been teaching people to fly for nigh on a decade now, been here as Wannabes Moderator for a good few years and in that time paid for my own ATPL and taught quite a few people for their PPL, CPL and IR. The very cheapest I have seen someone do it all for under the present rules is £33,500. He was an excellent student who lived in his own tent largely and hitchhiked to training establishments...

£37,000 is about what it will cost you if you don't balls anything major up like a CPL Skilltest or an exam series and need B&B's and food better than that available from an Aldi baked bean tin.

As with everything aviation related you should give yourself some safety margin and a £40,000 budget does just that. If I could not hand on heart get at that much money from day one I would not bother even getting a Class One medical.

I have been the instructor of a nice young chap whose budget had exactly NO slack. He failed a few early lessons and was terrified becuase he now knew he could not pay for his IR test. The stress of this worsened his performance. In the end he gave up on the course having spent £31,000 and not even gaining a CPL.

He would have achieved just as much for a lot less effort had he just gone into the back garden, with £31,000 of his parents remortgaged money, and set fire to it all.

You need to be able to go all the way in the training game. 99% of the way is totally useless. Too many people end up running out of cash at various stages and having to leave training to get more cash. Then when they re-enter training the first few bills are incurred just getting them back up to speed... enter now a vicious circle of the poorest student buying the most training.

Remember also that 98% of the graduates from OATS, CABAIR, Jerez or anywhere else in the last 6 months have not acquired a flying job. Don't be in too much of a hurry to join them. The backlog is going to take quite some time to clear although it will do so in time. Remember also that despite what people say there NEVER has been a shortage of qualified pilots with no experience. Aviation is the original Can't Get A Job Without Experience, Can't Get Experience Without A Job career.

PPL's and ATPL exams are fine for now. Further expenditure I would wait on. If you are in work now put the money in the bank for a while longer. Would be my advice.

As an aside the BALPA type figures of over 1,000 jobs lost are frankly incredulous. Its probably more like 300 guys who had jobs or who had job offers that are actually out of work. The industry is showing good signs of recovery - the holiday charter market ISN'T going to collapse so really the drama is now over barring war in the Gulf or any more WTC style spectaculars. Give it a year to mop up the experienced guys and then 3 years to clear the training backlog and I am confident pilot hiring will be just as good if not better than pre-Sept 11th.

Starting full time training in about a year would therefore seem like a reasonable plan.

Good luck with it all - the job at the end is worth it and the day I decided to quite my desk job was the most productive day of my life even though it felt quite scary at the time.

WWW

[bow5]

Jockflyer,

I didn't mean to appear to possibly call you stupid and don't worry, you didn't patronise me. I know you have been through it and I haven't. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

As far as I see it (I didn't put it particularly well before), loss of earnings is a completely separate issue that anyone who is considering doing an ATPL course should have tied down before they even consider training. The beauty of the modular route is that a full years loss of earnings doesn't become a factor, as you have the oppertunity to carry on working.. .The cost of the ATPL course is the cost of the ATPL course. Anything else is a peripheral cost that you will budget for. What I was trying to say was that telling someone an ATPL course costs £60-70,000 is going to scare the bejesus out of them because it doesn't cost that at all.

Finally, I did take your advice. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I'm budgeting about £40,000 for the modular course, and I already have a PPL and Class 1.

[jocko0102]

Having looked at a number of schools the price they advertise is for the most part the basic package.You need to investigate very carefully all the additional costs i.e resits ground/air,cost of accom/food if not included and all other expenses for the duration and some time after until you get a job even if it isnt a flying one.The additional costs for example(if resits are required) at Jerez for gnd/school,flying and accom are bloody expensive so you need to work out a good budget with slack before you go otherwise as was said dont bother.

[erika]

The Stapleford option includes residential ground school course in London Guildhall University. Their reputation and pass rate is good.

[Cypres]

WhyOhWhy Do I Do It . .made the folowing statement:

[quote]. .Yes you come out at the end with the same license, but know this, you HAVE to do the CPL/IR (flying) in the same country as the ATPL ground (fact).. .<hr></blockquote>

. .This comment hasn't been challenged by anybody yet, Is it True? If that's the case (and I don't see why it should be) then that would rule Jerez out for Modular people who have done their ATPL studies / exams in the UK.. .Surely this is nonsense, any comments?

Kezza, I'm in almost exactly the same situation as yourself (35 years old, three kids - youngest is 6 weeks!). I'm studying for my ATPLs via distance learning @ OAT. My particular estimate for costs is £38K (Zero to fATPL includes an IMC on the way). No, I don't have this amount of money lying around.. .This figure includes every cost I could think of including 170A test fee, a/c hire, one re-sit, approach / landing / navigation fees / CAA fees. My estimate of hours to get through the Multi-engined CPL is higher than the numbers quoted by the schools since this is invariably the case. I hope to get through it in less than this but here is the point - Plan for the worst / expect the best.

Additionally, my full estimate for this whole caper is £46k which includes a Flying instructor course and MCC. The flying instructor course is a lifeline to myself at the end if the job market is depressed.

Cheers. .Cypres

[ 27 February 2002: Message edited by: Cypres ]</p>

[Tosh McCaber]

Do you save money paid out in VAT to private school, by studying ground school stuff at London Guildhall, being a University, and I presume VAT free? Or is it a sigificant amount in the total scheme of things?

[englishal]

I think its madness to fork out 40-50,000 GBP for a 'FROZEN' ATPL, unless you have bags of cash to throw around or you can't move to the US for a couple of years. Anyone who is thinking of doing a fATPL should read the thread on going the FAA route with a view to transfering to JAA in the future.

Basically you will still probably end up paying around 40,000 GBP, but will come out with 1500 hours,two ATP(L) tickets, not to mention that you'll probably be earning reasonable money as an instructor for a year or two while building your hours.

[jonathang]

How long can you expect to stay working while training? As this will obviously have an effect on the debt.

I would like to continue to work up to ATPL theory.

Thanks

[piperindian]

jonathang, i had to stop working for the IR. . .The IR must be made in a short span and requires two months. .You can do the rest, especially the theory while working at the same time.

There are also lots of hidden costs (examinations, medicals, equipment, landing fees...) Count on 40k-50k. .now i wouldn't invest 50k in a jar atpl in the current times. never heard about the 11 september and the abysmal state of the job market ?

[spitfire747]

cypres

Someone please correct me if i am wrong but i am under the impression the modular course has to be undertaken by an apporved school of the same authority as the ATPLs were taken under, so Jerez is under the CAA, so i guess it is ok to do ATPLs in the UK and CPL in Spain