More decorum...

[TheNightOwl]

I'm going to crave the indulgences of Woomera in this attempt to restart and, hopefully, continue my dialogue with Kaptin M and anyone interested in the subject. As in the previous thread, may I request that no-one hijack the thread, and force it to degenerate into the slanging match of before, and here I refer specifically to Slasher, TTT and Amos2. I am well aware of your collective antipathy to anyone whose views differ from yours, however slightly, and I cannot see why you will not permit any disagreement without the need for vituperative retaliation and abuse.
Kaptin: I, amongst MANY others, felt that to compare occupations with the choices you made was drawing a long bow. This is NOT to denigrate the training, dedication, skills and responsibilities of the pilot fraternity, and it is indeed difficult to compare your skills with any other field, so I was driven to the conclusion that the sole reason was in the comparison of level of remuneration. Yes?
The "evidence" for the country's economic state may be unacceptable to any group in pursuit of a pay rise, but all other workers were asked to exercise restraint, and your 30% claim, albeit an ambit one, was/is seen as another case of "sod you, Jack, I have the power to get my way". Not a good start! Your figues in respect of the population may well be correct, but the 16million you quote is not the WORKING population which, I would argue was considerably less. That a successful conclusion to your claim would not have caused a ripple effect is nonsense I, for one, would have been on the band-wagon for "my share", quite justifiable in my opinion as, at that time, we at the AN Sim Centre were approx. $5K - $6K behind our counterparts in QF.
I will willingly accept your figures about the salaries earned by the "returnees", (I will not refer to anyone as a scab), all the figures I heard quoted at the Sim Centre were fuelled mostly by jealousy!.
It cannot accept that you believe AN was not in trouble at the time, Kap., you must have been well aware of our plight. Christ, it took weeks for us to bet McMahon's agreement to send some people to the U.S. on a course to maintain the BAe 146 sim, and this is NOT an invitation for a diatribe on aither the a/c or simulator! The company was in a terrible state, and McMahon knew it, which is why ALL finance requests had to go through him.

Yes, undoubtedly any political leader could use the argument about "wrecking the economy" in response to any pay claim, but is it pure coincidence that the argument is trotted out only when those claims are seen as exorbitant? The Pommie firemen are demanding 40%, and are putting at risk the lives of the servicemen taking their place by refusing access to modern equipment to fight the fires, hence the on-going blue. I was, in 1977, manning a Green Goddess fire-tender of 1950's vintage, for 7 weeks over Christmas in the same situation, so I have NO sympathy for them, NONE AT ALL.

Yes, correct again, we were aware that the goalposts had been moved by September, but what you omit to mention is that, by then, you and your representatives had painted yourselves into a corner from which there was no escape, and Hawke, The Fat Man and the Silver Fairy had the upper hand and the determination to wield it like a club to batter the pilots into submission. From their point of view, it must have been Nirvanah, and to this day I have never been able to understand why a collection of people possessed of the intellect and abilities of yourselves failed to see the writing on the wall. Why would they agree to the AFAP's offer? What was in it for them? Please understand, I am not arguing for them, but I can understand the reasoning behind their actions, especially in light of AN's plight since, if what I was told is true, the initial reason for the claim was the imminent review of TN's pilot pay, and AN became a "victim" by default.
I have no argument about the use of foreign labour, Kap., it was an iniquitous actin by the government, but to extend the premise, how many ex-airline pilots took the jobs from existing GA pilots in order to survive? A contentious argument, I agree, but it does have value in light of the continuation of the diatribes against the so-called "scabs". God, how I loathe that word and its connotations!
To ask for support from us may well have been a logical step, but your Federation never acted upon it. Why? It is very strange, considering the position of one of the prime protagonists, and his then position with AN at the start of the dispute. No, I was offerred nothing tangible in the way of future support, I put it down to just another method of continuing the battle.

I wholeheartedly agree about McMahon, I don't believe I have ever met a more unpleasant, arrogant, head-kicking cretin in my working life. The ONLY interest he ever had was in following the Company line and preserving his conditions and Mercedes. A truly detestable man, and one who should never have been in the position he held.

I am convinced that this will never be resolved, there are too many points of view, each of which is coloured by personal circumstances, and the best we can EVER hope for is that the event will slowly soften into acceptance and be filed by all as it is consigned to the annals of history. Which, after all is said and done, is where it belongs. I understand that there are people no longer living in their homeland but, by now, is this purely a personal choice? Is it really beyond the capabilities of some to put the shameful event behind them, and continue their lives?

Over to you, Woomera, for deliberation and decision.

Kind regards, to all,

TheNightOwl.

[Woomera]

I'm game if we can maintain the tenor of TheNightOwls post.

Respect the right of anothers opinion, flawed or not, that there was collective and very personal hurt, for whatever reason and whether or not you believe it was self inflicted, that there are those who may have acted selfishly in the moment, but have had to live with the consequences and also have some compassion for those exiled from this wonderful country as a consequence of their personal convictions.

Whatever and however it transpired, the totally obscene tragedy of the whole thing, is that a bunch of Australians were exiled from their own beloved country by the Government of their country, a country which is revered for its tolerance, openness, robust democracy and into which so many peole are so desperate to come. The exquisite irony is that the very legislation that locked it up and brought this to pass, was that used to give amnesty to another nations citizens who had fled precisely this form of treatment.

IMHO we all know who the main culprit is and it is a mystery why you haven't taken the steps necessary to bring him to book whilst you can watch him watch his carefully crafted myth exposed in the knowledge that he will go down in history as very much less of a legend than he supposes.
There could be no harsher penalty.

I woiuld hope that we could get this discussion onto a higher plane, beyond the acknowledged pain of all participants.

[TheNightOwl]

My thanks, Woomera, for your response, you have said exactly what I have been espousing for a long time. I came to this country 20 years ago, and love it like that of my origin, with equal pride in the self-same traits within which I was brought up, viz., tolerance and respect for the rights and beliefs of others, however irrational and stupid I might see them.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl. :)

[Slasher]

If you believe these scabs have the right to freely espouse thier selfish reasons of self-justification without any criticism on any bulletin board you are sorely mistaken.

Ill stay restrained for the time being and contribute no further posts to this thread. but let a scab say so much as refer to my name, or justify his scabbing actions with the same worn-out 'Vichy' type excuses or worse start personaly attacking the good guys in general, and Ill forcibly confront them with much more ferocity than before. And it wont be just nambey-pamby name-calling stuff like the last thread this time either (and dont test me Terdburglar. Yeh, you! Think Im blind?). If the scabs only limit themselves to debate on percieved Fed tactic errors or simpley mouth-off with name-calling, Ill keep my mouth shut and stay off the thread.

and the best we can EVER hope for is that the event will slowly soften into acceptance and be filed by all as it is consigned to the annals of history.

Night Owl thats a warn-out scab's line. Hoping the passage of time alone will somehow heal the wounds they themselves created. And I dont think your one......are you? :confused:

[amos2]

Well!...the owls a bigger dope than I thought!!
And that's not saying much!
Does he think we came down in the last shower??

He wishes to have an "intellectual discussion" with the Kap, and preferably without any input from the likes of me, Slasher or Tool Time 2!

And sucks up to Woomera in the meantime to get his blessing!

As my wife said to me..."this bloke has got a scab mentality"...in other words, he would have scabbed himself, given half the chance! And now he wants a "discussion" to justify his "point of view"

My wife reckons you're not worth it, mate!!

[Slasher]

Amos2 I dont think Mr Owl said we cant say nothin. He just said he doesnt want me or you or K.M. or Tooly to cause the thread to degenerate into a brawl with scabs. btw Owl isnt a scab himself is he? I thought he was simpley one of the scab-siding Unwashed (no brawl-intention intended ok Mr Owl?).

Anyway I am in fact breakin my own rules by makin this post arent I. :rolleyes:

[amos2]

...just the fact that he takes the Lords name in vain is reason to discount his opinion on anything!!

[piniped]

Night Owl,

A noble attempt but look at the level of the responses.

sighs.....I find it amazing that alleged "grown-ups" that know more than the 88% of the rest of the great unwashed are incapable of typing more than a few words without using the s c a or b letters all rolled into one.

:rolleyes:

A tragic reflection on their collective mental states, at least Kaptin M isn't as bad as those other 3, he generally (note generally) has reasoned responses (regardless of your point of view), rather than the trash talk that abounds from some of the others.

BTW, I agree with Woomera (ohh sucking up I guess) if you lot feel so strongly about the silver bodgies criminal behaviour, you have loads of cash (at your own admission), use some to publicly demonize him.

I think to put it another way.....put up or shut up!

sorry about the lack of decorum Night Owl

[waterops]

charming.... your wife sounds a treat. What's his name anyway? Better you than me. I guess you have great dinner-time family discussions about the strike with the kids, in-laws, etc.

[Wizofoz]

I'm game if we can maintain the tenor of TheNightOwls post.

Err...

No we can't it would seem, Woomera. And nor will we unless you do some serious binning!!

[meeko]

Slasher said



"No nambey pamby" .


How old are you ?

Any dignity you had you are quickly losing..

Why dont you Slash stick to imparting some of your vast knowledge of the 737 to the youngins and use the internet as it was designed.
Not as a childish name calling avenue to make you feel better.


If not I know some really good teenager sites you could join.

[Possum 15]

NightOwl, the thread was a call for decorum (that is "don't call me names"), not for a reasoned discussion on the rights or wrongs of the Dispute.
Vituperative retaliation? NO WAY MATE! Just calling a scab a scab. Scab is the only word (apart perhaps from blackleg) that can be applied to a member of a union who breaks ranks rather than staying the distance and, if necessary, taking action within that union to change policy or position. Maybe one or two did (benefit of the doubt here), but the rest, slinking like curs back to their own vomit, went to self serving, and so Citizen XXXXXXX tells us, highly profitable "individual" contracts. Most just showed lack of moral fibre I suppose and, if you will excuse the mangled metaphor, just vanished like ****s in the night.
Shameful event? I agree. I do, believe me, "continue my life" but I will never let these people slowly soften into (my) acceptance their vile, unprincipled and shameful actions. So, lacking the stamina of old, I say to Slasher, TTT, Amos 2 et al: "GO GET 'EM".
So, my good NightOwl, what was that about decorum?

[amos2]

Once again it would appear the weekies can't stand the pressure! Hey, you made your stand 13 yrs ago...having trouble coping? I'm not surprised! You gotta live with what you did but don't expect us who didn't buckle under to assuage your cowardice.

Could I suggest you all try and get on with your lives and put all the angst and bitterness behind you and simply accept the fact that you will always be known as what you are...or what you would like to be!

As for me, I'm off to Oz and the sunshine coast for Dec.and lot's of fine wining and dining, so you lot can bitch on as much as you like...the 89ers, like me, don't give a hoot!

[Tool Time Two]

Mr. Owl,

Well may you hate the word “scab” and it connotations.
So do most of us.
But the people who are so named put up their hands knowing full well that they would be so named for the rest of their lives.
It is not abusive in my opinion, and it is worth as much as yours, to name someone a scab if that person put his/her hand up to be so called.
Not all you have written is wrong. But the key is still lost on you, and no doubt you were equally subject to the brainwashing feel good meetings at Flemington. I would be hard pressed to believe otherwise.
You have conveniently missed all the issues involved in the scabs employment.
None were “returnees” as you put it.
You and/or your AN colleagues can’t argue the actions of the AFAP and the fact that “you all resigned and didn’t have jobs”, then call the scabs returnees.
Many of those scabs returned not to the original positions they held, and if they did, it was temporary.
As to your claim of the abhorrence of the pay claim, you have to equally be aghast at the level of the scabs pay.
As I have pointed out on a number of occasions, the average hike was 47%, and that’s a provable fact. I don’t detect any such repugnance from you.
You comment about moving the goalposts in September is duplicitous and foolish. You suggest that just because it happened to be those you named, Abeles etc., that they seemed to have every right to treat a still registered and legal entity, namely the AFAP, the way they did.
The truth, again pointed out many times, but you and the scabs won’t heed, is that Abeles needed to have a weak bunch of employees, not just the pilots. He had the ACTU as well as the Federal Government in his pocket, and that is exactly what he got.
The AN scabs then not only acceded to him, but then went to the IRC and claimed that they would not work with any ‘89er because it was a safety issue.
Nice boys and girls those scabs. Much better to ensure the ‘89ers live in unemployment, and/or leave the country.
Mr. Owl, your love of scabs is misplaced, and your statement that my words posted on the BB are abusive, is incorrect.
Woomera’s words are the best I’ve seen from that source.
But make no mistake, while you and your scab friends were gleefully making hay while Ansett went steadily down the gurgler over twelve years, many of the ‘89ers were enduring much greater hardships than you, fortunately, will probably know.
I don’t know how many times you have to be told that had no one scabbed, as they had ALL agreed under the democratic secret ballot, then there would have been a resolution. There could have been NO other result. The foreign scabs would NOT have been tolerated beyond a certain level by the ACTU. But the fact that people scabbed from the ranks of the AFAP, gave the ACTU some comfort that the pilots were not all foreigners. That also ignores the public backlash, which would have occurred had Abeles only had foreign scabs.
So the scabs have a very heavy load to carry in terms of their appalling and un-Australian conduct, and I, for one, won’t forgive them.
:cool:

[gaunty]

meeko

If you sit very still and very quiet, it is just possible, that Slasher may not notice you. Or more probably doesn't think you're worth the effort. As giant an intellect as his, is rare and would probably find your opinion of him quaint but enormously boring.

I'm not an '89er nor a hero but I have to agree somewhat with TT2 in summary;

So the scabs have a very heavy load to carry in terms of their appalling and un-Australian conduct, and I, for one, won’t forgive them.

and if I may add a personal coda;

'for what they did to themselves, their peers and their colleagues'

Having said that, I do understand, which doesn't mean I agree or disagree with, where they were coming from, given the context and enormous pressures of the time.

I suspect, that the majority of heroes, in hindsight, now regret their actions and would if they could turn back the clock. It would require a huge effort from the '89ers to accept them back.

Those who don't, well we have been over that a gazillion times.

But one thing is very sure it will not just fade away as much as RJLH hopes it will.

Every time I hear him bleating, or Carmen Lawrence beating her gums I get a headache.

[TheNightOwl]

I reckon you are right, Piniped, it's a waste of time trying for sensible discussion on this subject, so I think I'll thank Woomera for the space and give it away. Reason appears to hold no sway for Amos and the likes, unless the reason is in line with their own, so I don't really see much future in pursuing it.
No, Slasher, I wasn't a scab, not even a pilot, but I WAS closely involved in the goings-on of the time, and saw both sides of the equation. Even up to a few years back, I read the comments in the Sim Centre sign-on logs from expat pilots coming to us for training, not a very edifying sight, I can assure you, any more than the barely-concealed loathing when two of the antagonists met at the sim door on changeover.
Amos2: Why, in the name of all that is wonderful, would you think I might have any interest in your wife's opinion of me? Surely it is axiomatic that any person with a reasoniong ability so impaired as to willingly choose you for a mate is incapable of logical thought? You stick to your Asian environment, and come back home to enjoy your "fine wining and dining", old son, no-one really gives a hoot. You are an irrelevance in the Australian aviation scene as, since earlier this year, am I.
TTT: Well put, but we will never agree, you always seem to ascribe to me motives which do not exist, nor ever have. The ultimate pay given to the returnees was, as I was told, based on productivity from the number of stick-hours, but I have no doubt you will have "facts" to refute that!
If you are trying to imply that I was brain-washed by the Flemington do, please give me a little more credit than that. Wisdom and insight into the motives of the AN management are not the prerogative of the 89-ers, TTT, some of us can think for ourselves. To put it in a nutshell, a popular view of 89, and I do not claim it is necessarily mine, is that a bunch of people thought they had the clout to hold their respective employers to ransom in pursuit of an exorbitant pay rise, and were dismayed to find that the world was not automatically on their side. Rapid back-pedalling ensued, a great deal of effort was expended in trying to regain lost ground from powers with the upper hand, to no avail. I have a great deal of sympathy for the 89-ers position, but I must confess that I believe that you were misled by the AFAP and its Officers in the strength of your position with regard to the determination of the employers and government. I emphasise again, I regards the actions of Hawke, et al, as disgraceful in the extreme, but what would you have expected from people of little or no principle when you present them with the means to belt you into submission? Are you all really surprised that they seized the chance?
About the only thing I can agree with in Gaunty's post is the comment "...I do understand, which doesn't mean I agree or disagree with". That is my point, I DO understand, I simply resent the continued assault on the "scabs" after 13 years but, it appears, it will never be resolved so I see little point in trying to elicit logical argument.

End of it for me, unless the temptation becomes too much in the future,

Kind regards, to all,

TheNightOwl. :)

[Kaptin M]

Away on a trip with very little time between check-in and check-out at the stay hotels, so apologies for not responding earlier.

Let`s try to keep it sanitary for a while please gents, to avoid the Lockwood. I find it interesting that you have made such a long post, TNO, in support of the "returnees", however I guess there are ONLY 2 sides wrt to 1 the Australian pilots` Dispute for those who were involved. I have to admit that the word "scab" is NOT a nice one to use when referring to people, however as I posted on the previous thread those pilots who joined or returned to the airlines at that time were FULLY AWARE that they would wear this "badge", and not only accepted it, but EMBRACED it - because of the $$$`s and the career prospects it offered them at that time, and for - as far as they were concerned - the rest of their working lives.
I doubt that not ONE of them ever thought he/she would have to leave the comfortable confines of Ansett, TAA, East-West, or IPEC, where THEY were king, and the "name-callers" lived in the outside world having no real direct, day-to-day contact with the other pilots.
Now that their "world" has been destroyed, they (and you) are loudly protesting the "unfairness" of having their names associated with their underhanded, selfish, betraying actions.

Understand, TNO that the actions of a very FEW, directly impacted ENORMOUSLY on the lives of the MAJORITY of the pilots, their families (which included wives, kids, Mothers, Fathers, etc.) from 1989 until NOW....and continuing.
However, knowingly or otherwise (as Slasher points out), the un-Australian attack used by Hawke, was an attack not only on us, but on ALL Australians. Here was a Prime Minister who abused his elected position to use EXTAORDINARY (and I use that word in its true sense) powers in what was a normal industrial dispute between employers and employees.

We had ELECTED to join the Accord, we were NOT compelled to remain within it - that was made quite clear from the outset - however, Hawke was not going to allow us what was our RIGHT as supposedly free Australian citizens.

Time to turn a wheel. But I`ll be back to address the comments and questions in your opening paragraph, in a day or so.

Keep it nice `til then. ;)

[Wizofoz]

those pilots who joined or returned to the airlines at that time were FULLY AWARE that they would wear this "badge"

Kap,

Did not the AFAP members

1. Start the 9 to 5 campain FULLY AWARE that it made them liable to legal action from the airlines.

2. RESIGN, FULLY AWARE that it meant the AFAP no longer represented any pilots working for the airlines, and therefore had no right to make demands on those companies.

Unless of course the AFAP hierachy DIDN`T make it`s membership FULLY AWARE of the consequences of it`s action...