Future of SH Navigators

[Snoodfeatures]

I understand that a delegation including the Air Sec and CinC STC is due to visit SH MOBs next week to give a presentation on the future of Navigators. Sounds to me like the long-expected decision to go 2-pilot... any thoughts?

[Talking Radalt]

They could always be offered an upgrade to crewman...
:D

[Training Risky]

If you are a nav, maybe you can enlighten us as to the popularity amongst navs of this SAR re-role I've heard about recently.
Are people taking this option?
Is it true?

[Dunhovrin]

Why are their airshipworthynesses visiting SH bases to talk to crews? Shurley the best place to visit them is in the various poxy holes* the boys are stuck in.

* Ulster not included...

What are the requirements to upgrade a nav to crewmold?

Obviously surgical removal of one of their nav bags is one.

[Southern Rotary Bloke]

If I were a betting man I would expect something slightly more wide reaching than just the future of SH navigators.

Next week might just be the start...

[Lhs specialist]

my understanding is that shmavigators will be phased out gradually from SH (natural wastage, postings etc) over the medium term i.e. 6-10 years. This will mean v little to the shmavs currently working in SH. I will be interested to see if this mythical branch of WISO will apear and offer some sort of solution to the problem of what to do with these bods. Incedentaly, I would have much preffered the new branch to be called Weapons And Nav Kit Specialist, it makes a much more fitting abbrieviation for my future in the mob.

[Tiger_mate]

W eapons A nd N av K it S pecialist?

Like it,...... like it lots! New brevet time I wonder.

SRB said: Next week might just be the start...

Thought all good rumours were delayed now `til feb, unless you know different.

T_M

[Snoodfeatures]

LHS Specialist,

I agree with your assessment of the likely 'party line' (although I have heard that it could take up to 12 years to train enough pilots - wonder if they considered SABR in this?), but I don't really buy the "don't worry, it won't affect you" argument - as I see it, the SH force has never really made use of its navs, and if the intention is to phase them out, nobody is likely to put any effort into enhancing their position.

The force apparently needs the navs to stay in until enough pilots can be trained to replace them - if the official line is that the current navigators are not any use to the force and are just there to make up the numbers, what effect will this have on navigator retention?

Maybe there will be a consultation period to see what the navs think... or maybe not...

Snoodfeatures

[Magic Mushroom]

Chaps,
Any Navs looking for a long term career could do a lot worse than consider E-3D mission crew. Interesting and very important job, and the requirement to do a year or so down a Fighter Control bunker will hopefully soon be removed for those interested in Weapons Control rather than Surveillance.
We also get a galley although we unfortunately have to live in tents these days as well!
Generally, I suspect that 'Mission Crew' roles for Nav/WSO's will increase in importance due to E-3D, Nimrod R1 and ASTOR over coming years.
Regards
M2

[Background Noise]

Would that then be the Weapons And Nav Kit (Ex Rotary) Specialist? :D ;)

[snaggletooth]

W eapons A nd N av K it S pecialist - C ombat A irborne T echnical S pecialist....

Any takers?

[Smug_Bastard]

I exercised my PVR rights and left the RAF a few years ago at the mid point of Nav training - it seems I made the decision give the news on this message board.

The then director of Nav training did my exit interview and told me that there was a fantastic future for Navs - who was he trying to kid!

I am now 29, earn £80k a year in a successful career in the City.

Je ne regret rien!:D :D :D

[ossie]

Where does the Air Force find the money to train these nav replacements. The through life costs for navs is nil as their training is done on the back of pilots training. I somebody in the MOD has asked the treasury to cough up all this new money!

[zerospeed]

If the RAF is really trying to phase out SHNavs, how come every time a new OCF output hits the squadron there are more bloody navs than the last time? Not that i care, more P1 for me!

[difar69]

Smug, what no. Nav course were you on then? (if you don't mind me asking).

[Lhs specialist]

ossie, im not sure where you get the idea that navs have a zero cost of training. We have our own basic nav course (admittedly primarily to train us for fast jet) and then a separate (and very very lengthy) rotary course with about a third of the hours allocated to a pilot. On top of this there is an equally lenghty ocf (third pilot hours). We are cheaper but not free. As to where the extra funding for extra pilots will come from, the "tiny" amount of extra money will be approved in the next budget.

[AceRimmer]

Why are they called 'one wing wonder men'?
"I wonder what this does"
"I wonder where we are"
"I wonder how this is for"...
Teeheehee

[TimC]

I thought that the only SH navs flew on Pumas? Do they also fly on chinooks and fulfil the PNF role?

Sorry if this sounds really stupid, but I'm most interested in Nimrods :D .

[PC7anyone?]

Spent alot of time with a LHS specialist next to me. They nearly all (one or two exceptions....got promoted !) gave a fantastic service, one that I could only hope to give when I occupied the left. The arguments for getting shot of them are strong but the ones that are left do a good job. I only hopethey manage to motivate the one left behind as they "phase them out".

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

As one who never subscribed to the "they nicked our job" forum I have to fully endorse the last post. On the whole, as I remember, they were top blokes, none more so than the Puma guys who saw the end of 18 in BFG!! The idea of two pilots is a good one but lets hope it all works out ok for the Nav's who will inevitably get sh@t on.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Training Risky]

Yes, Navs also fly on Chinooks. As aircrew and several executive roles too.
There are only 3 or 4 navs on each op sqn, with NO MORE being trained. So they are the last of their kind on SH.

The fact that you are more interested in Nimrods sounds more stupid than your original question.
Are you actually wanting to live in the frozen North, waiting to fly an Mk 4 that may never come?:D

[TURNBULL]

Training Risky,

I'm afraid we haven't seen the last of navs on the old Chinny, we have to find jobs for the emerald isle ejectees - sadly, we'll have to continue flying 54 troops with only one pilot up front.

[Holer Moler]

I could not understand why the NAV was placed in the LHS of SH helicopters to begin with, why dont the RAF follow the AAC lead on this subject.

A. This beast would have already gone through years of expensive flying training.

B. Almost ineviatably be a commissioned officer.

Solution: Simple/ Take an NCO & put him through the old Army Aircrewman sylabus at MW. You will then end up with a product that is significantly less expensive than the commissioned LHS crew member the RAF currently produce.

[TimC]

TR

Thanks for your answer. It's something that I have never come across before. Dunno why coz I'm a bit of a spotter.

So why were navs put on SH sqns in the first place? To make up for a lack of pilots and/or as specialists to help in planning etc? Why get rid of them now?

As for Nimrods, I've flown in one (once) and I've never been in any helicopter let alone a mil one. Also I'm only medically fit for AEOp/AirEng/Sig due to slightly ropey eyesight and long legs :D . Anyway, I quite liked it up north :eek: .

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Doc,
The question you ask was asked by the ALM fraternity at the time. Bearing in mind nearly all crewman at that time had had massive exposure to the LHS, had operated exclusively in the single pilot role, been responsible for low level nav etc etc there would have been no real training requirement for the guys to move into the LHS.

However the implication of a "baldrick" in a driving seat in an RAF aircraft, bearing in mind you guys are crewed the way you are, was too politically sensitive.........would it have led to a harder look at NCO pilots..who knows.

SH needed someone for the LHS and Navs were in abundance at that time. As I have said before on the whole they were top geezers but I will always regret not being afforded the chance the situation offered.

However now happy in Wilts on the J which gives me time to come in here and swap banter with other fellow pruners:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[TURNBULL]

Tim C,


The answer to your question lies in a paper written in the early 90s by an air officer called Harding, ex-SH and well respected. His case was based on the fact that SH survivability in the modern ie post-cold war, world would be based on the way the aircraft was 'fought' not 'flown'. This coincided with the post-cold war force reductions and a glut of ready trained Tornado navs who were offered an alterbative career in SH. Always-Broken-in- Wilts is correct in that LSH, Puma and Wessex, had used c'men in the LHS for simple sorties, but fails to mention that when the going got hairy, they always put 2 double winged master race in the front. C'men did not have massive exposure to the LHS, as the Chinny always used 2 pilots, save for a very small number of navs.

Why? Because one of the main threats to SH has always been MANPADS and smallarms. He former strikes so fast it, there is little a nav or anyone else can physically do and the latter can only be countered by armour and redundancy, ie another pilot.

The SH force remains unique in the world carrying large numbers of troops in a hostile environment with only a single pilot up front.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

TB,
Aggree with all you say and apologies if I was over painting the crewmold picture.........that was not my intention. You are quite right, as Gulf episode 1 showed two "drivers airframe" is without doubt the way ahead.

The point I was trying to make was that at the time, 10 years or so ago, the feeling among the crewman brethren who were well supported by an awful lot of pilots , I can only speak for the Puma world, felt that the job the Nav was being employed to do they could have done at virtually no cost to the tax payer. No one would argue with the fact that an extra man was needed in the cockpit the only bone of contention was who it should be.

As regards the Wokka I was always under the impression that it was the difficulty of flying the beast that meant it was exclusively 2 pilots, hence crewmold's very very rarely got a go, so was as surprised as everyone else when Nav's were sent that way as well.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Spot 4]

The introduction of LHS Navs (as opposed to the few that were trained as "crewmen") coincided with the demise of the "V" Force that left many unemployed Navs looking for a seat to park in. The Gulf War signaled the end to vacant left hand seats, and yes any crewman worth his salt could have occupied that seat and done the mission management well.

However it was also a political move to try and save the "N" brevet, and it will not be missed too much when in April 03(ish) it dies a death.

Like any trade there are good, bad and very strange navs, but that also applies to the other SH trades. I personally can live with or without them, and I do not envy the RAF Officer without portfolio that has been created by recent announcements. Recruitment of SH Navs should stop right now (or rather last week) rather then bringing young and impressionable folk into a dead end job with no light at the end of the tunnel. There are still (a few) positions for them, and that is where they should be headed.

Merry Christmas

[difar69]

Spot 4,"........to try and save the "N" brevet, and it will not be missed too much when in April 03(ish) it dies a death. "

Thanks for insulting those currently wearing the N brevet and those who gave their lives in the last 60 years wearing the N brevet. It does mean something to some people.......

[Strobin' Purple]

Looks like Spot 4 just caught his wife at it with an SH nav! Nah, she's probably too ugly.
But there has to be some reason behind his ill-informed vitriol.

V-force my a**e!