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View Full Version : Huge Airservices Publications Price Rise


puff
2nd Dec 2002, 10:31
Apparently in the near future some of the ASA pubs will be having a fairly tidy 40% price rise. The AIP is apparently rising to about $90 odd, along the DAP East. DAP west around $70 odd. The ERSA is also going up to over $20.

The reasoning behind it, ASA is said to have quoted that the opposition (Jeps) are still priced a lot higher than this and it's still competitive.

Lucky all of us pilots are all so rich and can afford it! HA!

Icarus2001
3rd Dec 2002, 06:03
Coral

they should be free anyway, or all available electronically free for download.

...did you actually look anywhere, geez...


http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/aip/index.htm

Why should everything be free? Nothing can be free! Someone, somewhere has to pay. I hate to pay too much for my documents too but if you fly for a living it is tax deductible, if you fly for recreation, well every hobby has a cost. Do you budget? I'd bet all the VFR charts & documents required in a year cost less than an hour in a Cessna 172. Especially if you use the link above.

beer bong
3rd Dec 2002, 09:24
Icurus
Who are you? Peter Costello!!!

Icarus2001
4th Dec 2002, 08:04
Why, because I stated the bleeding obvious?

Rich-Fine-Green
4th Dec 2002, 08:24
The reasoning behind it, ASA is said to have quoted that the opposition (Jeps) are still priced a lot higher than this and it's still competitive.

Not competitive when the Jepps contain more than just 'plates'.

I've used Jepps now for a while and except for the initial sting for Leather Binders - found it to be a good product.

If the A$ gets a little stronger then it will be even better.

ArnhemDog
4th Dec 2002, 10:50
I paid $75 about 10 years ago for the same publications I now pay $280 for, now you tell me the price is going up again.

What the fruk?

Where is the ACCC now, hey Alan Fels what is going on, I still earn the same wages, and petrol has nearly doubled.

Thank God for soup kitchens.























:confused:

ITCZ
8th Dec 2002, 03:39
All getting a little hot under the collar aren't we:)?

Yes, it is a load of [email protected] for AirServices to claim that a price hike is justified because Jeppesen is priced significantly higher.

There are a few issues here:

1) Whether ASA is actually authorised to price its services above a cost recovery method, and

2) If they are actually permitted to do so within legislation and government policy in (1) above, can they in all seriousness price their product at anything near the Jeppesen?

Sort of like a secondhand car dealer justifying a 40% price rise on a secondhand Hyundai in response to increased new BMW sales. Not even in the same ballpark, boys and girls!

3) What part of the ASA document preparation process is costed and paid for in $US? The Jepp product is not expensive for US pilots. A screwy exchange rate is just money grubbing by ASA marketers.

A quick browse did not find any statement on the AirServices site that actually indicates a price rise for any documents-- maybe it is a wind up?

However, if the statement is true, then ASA are guilty of an ugly little bit of bureaucratic memory loss.

The entire reason the pilot community started paying for charts in the 80's was justified as a cost recovery situation only, the famous and now very tired 'user pays' sloganeering left to us by the bureaucrats-cum-government business unit managers.

At the outset, paying for documents was justified by the cost of providing required information to the user. As the statutory authority requiring us to use their documentation, ASA can argue that we users pay a reasonable fee for their preparation and distribution (if you subscribe to Reagan-/Thatcher-/Little Johnnie's version of Keynsian economics, that is)

To take the line of McDonalds/Nike/other 'branding' marketing organisations , though, and start to point to product quality and position in the marketplace, leads to ASA Publications stepping outside their chartered role (not to mention very conveniently forgetting their own past reasoning).

The 'user' is now paying MORE than his/her fair share of the cost of producing and distributing documents.

The ASA document set may be accurate operational documents, but if the 'marketing professional' that they hired to introduce this latest pricing policy is a trained marketer, then -- Sonny jim (jane) your 'total product' does not hold a candle to Jeppesen with its (ASA's) clunky 'user interface,' crappy binders, slow and mistake ridden ordering system, and customer support that is basically limited to some just-out-of-work-experience voices that either cannot or do not know how to solve customer problems, don;t know what it is they are really selling or who they are really talking to when a 'customer' rings them for missing pages or even to place a new order -- that is, if you can get through to them in the first place. (They are always very sorry that we are having so much trouble, however!)

In comparison, should it be necessary to call Jeppesen FOR ANY REASON including a situation caused by your own stupidity (ie left my Perth charts in Darwin :D!), you can be assured of a few things..

(1) The person handling your complaint has an understanding for your situation as an IFR pilot, dare I say, even Respect, as you are very possibly not just a 'customer' but perhaps an Aircraft Captain, a professional person in need of accurate and well made tools for his/her trade.

(2) The person handling your complaint/query is very likely was or is an aviation professional like myself.

(3) The Jeppesen organisation has excellent support from its designers and will accept input and questions from line pilots. I spoke to them about their depiction of the no cirling outside 4nm west of RW15 YSCB and had an interesting discussion about their diagram depicting the limit as a 4nm radius from the runway intersection rather than 4nm from runway ends.

Much better than a Publication Centre chick who, although very polite, really doesn't go any more out of her way for me than a girl at the coles counter handing out roast chooks. "Yes, we have those, but you need to buy a whole new set. That will be three squillion dollars and we can have it to you in about a week. You need it tomorrow? I don't know if we can do that... hang on, Four squillion to cover the Express post pack, but I dont know about tomorrow, the boys downstairs are just about to finish for the day. I see your address is in Darwin? You live in Darwin but you want me to send them to Canberra? Oh, Joondalup is in WA, well you learn something every day dont you."

The only real role that CASA/ASA documentation can now go is free web publishing and distribution. The documents MUST be produced, that is the charter of ASA. They are already being paid fees by Jeppesen for use of their data. If somebody without access to a computer wants a copy, then by all means, ASA charge for producing the hardcopy. But the Act down to the AIP and SUPPS should be available for free on the web, as with any other legislation in Oz.

My 2c worth

Pole Vaulter
8th Dec 2002, 06:34
ITCZ,
Have a look at the ASA page and go to publications and you will see the truth. AIP is $111.20 up fom about $63.00, DAP East up from about $55 to $90.10 CAAP up from approx $40 to a whopping $103.05 and likewise for CAR and DAP West. This is no windup but the real thing. These prices are straight off the ASA website.

Wheeler
8th Dec 2002, 08:26
Icarus

So when did Peter Costello state anything obvious? (Bleeding or otherwise)

I never saw you as quite such an economic rationalist!

If you were, maybe we might be asking some of the big airlines in this country to chip in for some of the training the RAAF pay for. Did you see that thing on the airforce the other night? Apparently, they are having trouble finding the right pilots (Ha!) because it is the best way into the airlines and so thats why they join(!) - that is so they can leave! I bet Qantas don't mind at all.

Never mind that - how many self-improvers have paid for their own training or got some small GA outfit to help out? - and then the big guys come along, take their pick and say 'thanks very much'.

Any price rises in this industry will just be another nail in the coffin of the GA training industry - and lets face it airseriices have been bashing a few of those in over the last few years!

Yes, things do have to be paid for but when did economic rationalism work in this industry? The strong milk the the weak and there is no sign of that stopping. Meanwhile, next time a youngster comes along, asking how much it costs to learn to fly, we will not be too surprised if when it is all added up, airservices costs and all, its just too much - and another one bites the dust.

Maybe we should start a new thread on this - or perhaps something a bit more specific - like why the airlines don't pay their wack when it comes to training!:D :D :cool:

RENURPP
8th Dec 2002, 10:30
CAO's, CAR's, AIP, AIP DAP's, AIC's and the Civil Aviation Act are all available at the AsA web site now.

Haven't looked into downloading them but you are able to print what you want, until they have people checking your nav bags for copy right

Wheeler
12th Dec 2002, 11:36
ERSA is on the web too. It would be great if it could be carried around in electronic form - but as for down loading it, that really is not a goer.

Lodown
12th Dec 2002, 13:28
I'm sure Jeppesen will be happy. More business handed to them on a platter.
I don't know why AsA have a publications centre anyway. AIS - yes, but there is no need for AsA to monopolise the retail area. That should be the realm of private industry.

Sheep Guts
12th Dec 2002, 15:57
Looks like we are going the same path as the US. Soon Airservices will have to subcontract out to other Companies to publish docs like CARs,AIP,ERSA and CAOs. In the states when you purchase the FAR-AIM it is published by several different publishers, but essentially has the same content. More optoins for the purchaser, hey the Yanks did invent consumerism.

I now will allways buy Jepps. Why? Well the amendment service is more frequent. More info in 2 books, user friendly for carriage in the aircraft etc. It may cost more, but I think it wont be long as this thread sugests, the Airservices options will be the same if not more in price. Is this just damage control by Airservices, ie. getting some profits before the enevitable, or are they serious and want compete with Jepp on an open palying field. The latter ,I really think is a pipe dream.......:rolleyes:

Regads
Sheep
wheres me signature?