Life in an aboriginal settlement??? [Archive]

High Altitude

1st Dec 2002, 05:23

pa28capt, firstly you would need to change your handle to C210capt as that is the most prolific type of aircraft based in communities.

As for living on communities it depends on what your attitude is going in? If your a yuppy smuck from Sydney then well er um forget it! Me I can admit after being up here for 11 years that I was a racist pr*ck before I left Melbourne (I didn't realisie I was). Living on communities opens your eyes and broadens your experience. It is amazing to see a southern politician who happily makes decisions about these communities visit them for the first time! Ya just gotta watch their faces when a prime condition mange ridden camp dog walks past carrying a used diaper in its mouth!!! It is sad to say but some communities are like a 3rd world country. What one needs to remember is that it is not that many generations ago when they were still living of the land. Now whitepella comes in and builds 3 bedroom brick homes more adapted to be built in Footscray than the remote NT, Ya just gotta look at some of the houses at Bulman to see a great design, concrete with a causway and built in fire place for cooking, but alas this is substandard living? Better build the 3 bedroom brickhouse so the door can be ripped of and louvers destroyed. Don't get me wrong there are the few full bloods that take pride in where they live and put effort in. It is a debate that can go on for along time, look at Port Keats where the number is something like 20 people to a dwelling, now wonder it looks like the third world.

I enjoyed my times on communities Daly & Oenpelli these were definatley 2 of the easier communities to live on as there was always an escape by car to the nearest watering hole. Living somewhere like Elcho is a very different story, you will make friends with traditional oweners that will allow you experiences that the hairy armpit brigade from south would only dream of, the landscape is spectacular but as in ANY community the downfall is nearly ALWAYS alcohol related which is very sad.

You get to go fising, hunting, swimming in remote unspoilt waterholes, and yes you are regarded quiet high in the community cause eh pilot you bookem up dat charta por me... It is also a great place to study as the nightlife is often quiet. Then again the white fraternity on communities normally sticks together and wow man you have some fun parties.

Pilots always seem to end up bangen either a nurse or a teacher so the sex life aint to bad... Just don't make the mistake that many do.. you no the saying once you go black.....

Above all if you are flying on a community put yer head down and dont think that you are beyond the law. Casa don't mind gettin in a 4WD these days to go everywhere, not that that should effect your decisions anyway. I have seen to many people come unstuck pushing the envelope that little to far, you have no one out there to directly supervise you so it is up to you! Generally speaking you can expect to live out bush for 1-2 years b4 cracking the DN scene, then again that really depends on a hell of alot of aspects.

I hope the above is helpful and insightful, I am a passionate Territorian who really enjoys the experiences on offer in the vast open land... Its like anything, its what you make if it!!!

Dj Dave

1st Dec 2002, 11:37

Does anyone know where to find this Doc "how to be an Elcho Island Pilot"

Obviously it isn't a post. Perhaps it exists as email ?

Troopy

1st Dec 2002, 20:59

I would have to agree with comp stall and mainframe. I was stuck in south east Arnhem land and Borroloola for a year.
Everything that comp stall mentioned happens, we got broken into three to four time a week, had the the cheif pilot turn the locals onto us because he didnt like us and we lived in worse conditions that some of the locals. as well in borroloola every thursday was fight night at the pub. so Friday meant there was alot of territory health flights to Kathrine. But with all that crap i will never forget the flying and you should see the faces on my non-pilot friends when i tell my stories

onya

1st Dec 2002, 22:12

Hey Dan K,
Sincerely hoping that the comments you posted above are a gee up. I normally have a lot of time for your posts but if you are going to stand by what you posted above then alas, you've lost me. If the pollies and all the hanger-ons took the time to visit these hell holes then perhaps we'd see some change. Instead the majority choose to pass their judgements without having ever seen these dumps that we call communities. I personally have spent an eternity in these communities and can't stand it for a second when ill informed ignoramus (plural 'ignoramus', singular 'ignorami'. :D) have the audacity to sound off on a situation they have little or zero actual knowledge of.

All the best
Onya:rolleyes:

[b]Hope you don't mind,
W in speling pleece mode.;)

Lake Evil

2nd Dec 2002, 00:25

The amount of taxpayers money that filters through these communities is one thing that certainly makes you think what the hell are people thinking on the east coast when they say "aboriginal services are under funded", it should be like national service to have every Australian come and live in some of these communities for a couple of months and see what the real problems are.

No they have no money but can afford to pay cash to carry 2 packets of winnie Blue(nothing else) from Lake Evella to Mata Mata or get ATSIC to issue a PO to fly two locals in to DN on a $1700 charter to put one signature on a piece of paper that will land them a brand new Toyota Landcruiser in a couple of weeks that will end up like the one you see flying from Maningrida to Jirmada (spelling?) on its side on the beach filled nearly all the way to the top with sand. Purchase orders signed by community councils throughout the Kimberley that pay for grog flights (Kava in Arnhemland) and then more times than not the next day you find yourself on a clinic charter because some young woman has been tied to a tree and beaten within an inch of her life or some young kid after his parents are sloshed, goes out bush with a full can of petrol and ends of hanging himself before sunrise from the school playground.

The area in which these communities are located is the most beautiful country you will ever get to see and fly over but the ugliness of the politics and mismanagment of funding for programs creates issues that just compound the problems. All in all its one hell of experience and one that you will never forget.

Sheep Guts

2nd Dec 2002, 01:41

Well this is agood topic.

Well where will I start lets see.........:rolleyes:

Ok. Generally you will be shocked at the conditions, but past all that, the experience is invaluable. Why? Well ,I feel after working in these arduos conditions and returning to something more civil is definitely character buliding. I think even QANTAS Interview board members would agree with me on that.

The Tricks: Scenario 1

Ok customer A wants to go to Croker Is. to meet customer B to get some cash off him and grab some Dugong Meat he has just Shot.
But coustomer A has no cash but, he will give you his Keycard(and pin number) as he gets paid( Dole) next fortnight.

Solution Scenario 1

1. Customer A maybe trustworthy, and after some phone calls to someone reputable in his/her association/corporation, may vouch for thier story. IF NOT DONT.

2. ALLways cash up front allways, I use to sing the song "No money no fly" to a Bob Marley Reggae beat. You have to humerise these situations sometimes.:D

Generally if you keep your wits about youll do just fine. You will make some errors no doubt, but youll definitely learn by them.

What HA,Compressor Stall,Lake Evil and, MAINFRAME have to say are true and correct.

You will no doubt get to meet, some really great people, they will accept you into their culture, you may even be invited into their respective skin groups. But one word of advice donot get involved in the local politics, as will most defintely back fire on you

I used to fly food for a company out of Oenpelli, we flew to 9 different outstations, with 450kgs of stores, very long day in the heat loading, unloading cashing cheques, dodging campdogs, dealing with upset customers because they wanted to buy stuff on credit and their limit was exceeded. It all gets a bit taxing. Somtimes the sectors are 2 mins long. You take off, once you get to 500 feet your allready on a base leg for the next place, then unload again etc,etc..

Can be quite exciting, one day I dropped some diesel JerryCans at Malgawa Outstation, a fella called Jacki Namamdali lived there usually. He wasnt there the day I got there, but his 17 Camp/hunting dogs were. He used take them hunting for Buff, especially when his cousin had borrowed his only rifle.
Well I didnt even get out of the C182 I was in, I just dropped the diesel cans out the door ,with the engine idling and then took off. Sometimes you have to think with your hat on so to speak.:D

You will have to deal with funnerals most definitely at some stage of your stay, and utmost respect and practicality must be observed. They will smoke your machine and you. You may even have to stay for extended periods inflight or on the ground with the coffin in searing temperatures.

Obviously be carefull of oddly shaped envelopes that people give you hand to other people. No doubt with a bit nouce youll know the contents, Drug trafficing, Kava Trafficing is rife.

Also beaware of guys with Spears and gear going to a said funneral. They may actually be hiring you to do an Arhemland style drive/flyby, or an illegal Pay Back. Thats when some fellas get together and go and spear Brudda because he splet wit my sister deal. I remmember a fax that was broadcast from ALPA about such occurences were on the rise that was in 1999, may have changed now.

Legal Pay Back is another ball game all together, Pilots from the red centre ,Alice and Tanami may have more info on that subject

All in all enjoy the experience, youll see great landscape, witness an interesting culture first hand, that is sadly dying:( , and also you pick up some great art. The fella Jacki I mentioned above painted some paintings for me , they may be worth lots , I will never sell as they are part me aswell.....enjoy

Regards
Sheep

P.S. Violence and Break and enters, happen all the time. Getting you roof rocked on a Sunday morning etc. is not uncommon.

I worked at Oenpelli (dry community with pub),Ngukurr(dry no pub), also worked at Halls Creek which not being a community was a central watering hole for several. Alcohol sadly is still the menace to these people, and also sadly petrol sniffing. All the communtites had problems, but I must admit Halls Creek was the worst for me, 1200 people, 17 Police and Station house built out of something from Northern Ireland.:eek:

ulm

2nd Dec 2002, 02:38

Hey Sefan, 11 years don't make a Territorian :)

Have you forgotten the 'Pre-Tracy' rule ;)

Wasn't you that wouldn't hand prop the 210 at oenpelli that November day in 93 was it :D

(Oh, and if you think Daly is 'remote' try 2 years at Ernabella)

Chuck.

ITCZ

2nd Dec 2002, 08:13

See....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72876

A reminder that the "How to be an Arnhemland Pilot" letter IS NOT a publication for all and sundry and is not supposed to be perused by or be in the possesion of someone that I never met.

Yaka maynmuk.

[sigh]

OpsNormal

2nd Dec 2002, 10:29

The area in which these communities are located is the most beautiful country you will ever get to see and fly over but the ugliness of the politics and mismanagment of funding for programs creates issues that just compound the problems. All in all its one hell of experience and one that you will never forget.

Spot-on, that effectively wraps it up into a short paragraph. Just keep your wits about you and survive.

Re: the Payback thingy....

A short time ago there was a man of aboriginal descent who was tried for, and found guilty of in a white man court, of the charge of murder. This man was transported back to the aboriginal community at which the murder occurred (Nyirrpi from memory, about an hours' flight north of where I reside at the moment), for the sole purpose of recognising the grieving family's right of traditional payback (read spear in the leg), for the murder of their child. Once this act of payback was carried-out, the guilty person was then medically treated and then taken back to Alice. This was all well and good, but after the person was gone, the family of the dead person then set upon the young female nurse for "helping" the man who killed their child. She was very badly bashed and had to be evacuated to Alice by RFDS for her injuries to be treated. Those animals who did that are the type of low-life scum that you will meet in your day to day dealings with those type of communities. Don't get me wrong, I do not brand them all with that iron, only those who carried-out that cowardly act against someone trying to help someone else. For what was once a proud race, most are a shadow of their former selves (alcohol and substance abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, and sticking their hands out to the government and welfare agencies for more money are commonplace). They will try and "hit you up" for whatever they can, whenever they can. Be aware.

Oh, and if you think Daly is 'remote' try 2 years at Ernabella

Huh? For a start Ernabella isn't even IN the Territory, and it's only about an hour and a bit from Kulgera! (Grog Galore there!) Or you might have chosen a more civilised drinking hole such as CSP! ;) It's only about two hours north of ya through Mulga Park...... :D Just having a lend of ya ulm, I hope you had a "ball" there! :)

Beech Boy

3rd Dec 2002, 00:33

Compressor has it fairly accurate:

The only thing that I can add to his list is:

The smell: It can be unbelievable, and very distracting.

In the middle of the wet season, temperature about 45 degrees plus, humidity in the high 90’s, and all neatly packaged (sandwiched) into a poorly ventilated C210 or C206.

The flying, the scenery and the people were one of the best experiences that I can recall…..but the smell!!!

compressor stall

3rd Dec 2002, 00:56

Ah yes, THAT smell.

Ever noticed the slight smell differences in the different regions? Western Desrt folk smell different to Arnhem land folk who are different to Kimberley folk, who are different to Tiwi folk.

By far the worst I flew were 5 guys to Kiwikurra ex Hells Crack. They had been in a divvy van all morning, and it was a 1130 dept on a January day.

By the time I was airborne, i was gagging, and the air freshener lasted about 10 mins spraying under my seat and in the footwell. Eventually I just opened the window and flew with the window open - for 90 mins.......

Who ever removed the wing root ram air vents from the 210 needs shooting. :mad:

CS

Towering Q

3rd Dec 2002, 02:35

At least you folk up there in NT have "beautiful country" to fly over.

Down here in Central WA we have the "ugly politics and mismanagement" and nothing but sand dunes and spinifex to look at. :(

Regarding that smell...I think a lot of money could be made if it were bottled and sold to the Japanese tourists. It could be marketed as an "outback cologne". In time it may become more popular than koalas and Ayers Rock.:D

OpsNormal

3rd Dec 2002, 12:09

Yeah, isn't dry-retching while you fly one of life's little pleasures? ;)

Towering Q, 'tis much the same the Territory wide south of Tennant and the Barkly..... :)

Tinstaafl

3rd Dec 2002, 20:29

Jeez Stallie!

It took you THAT long to get around to opening the windows?

I used to leave them open from doors close to doors open again. Around, under or through rain showers, it made no difference to me... :p

Beech Boy

3rd Dec 2002, 22:26

Oh yeah!

The other thing that was really amazing in these communities, was that they hardly ever used to carry a wallet or purse, so when they did pay you for the trip they would extract the money from the most unusual places.

The money in those days (shows age now) was not this plastic money, but the really absorbent pre-plastic stuff that would absorb everything.

A tip- put the money into one of those re-sealable plastic bags, don’t touch it though, don’t touch it. I always used to wonder how the Boss would count the money at the end of the day????

Sheep Guts

3rd Dec 2002, 23:45

I agree guys about the smell, I think even the guys in Metros and alike especially when Aircons go U/S etc. The stench must magnify, I know in an Otter it used to.

My other fond memory be it a little gorish was the transportation of varied Killed Wild life, ala "it Fresh Kill wa wa..."

I've flown Dugong Meat( including fury snout),Buff meat,donkey, Barra( no ice) and live mudcrabs(Tied):D

I myself havent flown, but a mate of mine picked up a body bag(black plastic) full, from either Gove or Groote. I gave him a hand to remove it , I left the squishy end to him, it was a road victim:eek: .

regards
Sheep

Jatz

4th Dec 2002, 07:02

Although i agree with some of the above I must very strongly disagree with the sentiment that women should avoid aboriginal community life.

I lived alone in a NT community for a little over a year when i was 22/23. In that time I never felt in danger of assault or any physical harm from the local residents. That is not to say that there is no danger involved - but quite frankly i am probably exposed to as much risk in any Australian capital city or for that matter some of the international cities my work takes me to now.

-As is my general policy i treated my neighbours and customers with respect and received the same in return.

-It is also very important to retain a grasp on your sense of humour.

-Perhaps the most important tool for success is to get the elders on your side - this means staying out of the politics - NO EXCEPTIONS!

-I found that by making a point of saying hi to anyone i came across in the community or waving as i drove by it wasn't long before i was considered a friend and looked out for accordingly. And on those rare occasions when some charter money didn't show up (due to the unique booking arrangements at my company) - i never bothered chasing up the the young bloke/blokette who hadn't paid. Instead i'd drive by their camp and ask the oldest lady i could find there if she had seen my passenger anywhere? then if she asked me why i wanted to know, i 'd assume a pained expression and explain how i was in BIG trouble with my boss because her young relative hadn't paid me yet! the longest it took for the guy/girl to show up at the office with a thick ear was about half an hour - 100% success rate. Guilt, shame and sorry business should not be underestimated.

To anyone who tries life in an aboriginal community - i wish you luck, but i cannot stress enough to exercise common sense. it is sobering to remember that i know of more people who have injured or killed themselves through risky flying practices than have been assaulted by a local in a community - most of the violence i saw -and there was a lot - was intra-racial not inter-racial.

Without a doubt some of the best times i have ever had and best friends i have ever made are due to my time as "That -laydee-pahlot" in arnhemland.

safe flying, J

Just for the record there is a big difference between 'dry' and 'restricted' communities. nearly all the communities in what was my neck of the woods were the latter; meaning that permit holders were allowed to possess alcohol - nearly everyone had a permit! restricted alcohol rations were distributed fortnightly-greatly encouraging widespread binge drinking - and assoc. violence. my previous comments stand - i was never threatened there - regards, j

Dan Kelly

4th Dec 2002, 08:08

Mainframe,

I haven't lived in a community, nor can I imagine ever doing so. I have visited enough of them, by both road and air, to know that I would not be suited to what I see as the depressing conditions.

I don't see why The ABC or persons on the left of the political fence would neccessarily see community life as different to those on the right, or from networks 7,9,10 or SBS. Hence my response to your comment.

Onya,

My comment didn't address the conditions as described by mainframe. From my observations his description is extremely accurate. My objection was to his generalisation that the ABC and trendy lefties are at fault for not seeing the wood for the trees.

All the ABC and left leaning folk that I know, and the number is considerable and also in some cases highly placed, see communities for what they are. They recognise the reality of the situation and also that handing money over almost without end is not the answer.

However in our life times, right wing govts have for the most part held power, perhaps they have some share of the responsibility for the conditions therein. This is not to say that the indigenous folk have no responsibility for their own conditions but I'd ask you this question.

Do you want to be an Aboriginal? Probable answer is no, because they're at the very bottom of Australian society.

I can't begin to try to imagine what it must be like to be born Aboriginal and to try and rise above the hurdles that they face, hurdles which in the main, white Australians don't ever have to consider.

Mainframe

4th Dec 2002, 11:28

Dan K

Point taken, mate. You did not have to confess that you had not lived in a community, your post had already confirmed that.

I think the point I raised with the trendy lefties, the ABC and some of the chattering classes is that they assume the role of telling those in doubt what it is that they need to believe.

The average Melburnian would have no concept of the reality of aboriginal communities, nor would a lot of Sydneyites ( Though they do have the No Go zone of Everleigh St Redfern as a reminder).

However, various political groups that are aligned with the ABC tend to paint a picture of the treatment of aboriginals by Australians as somehow wrong, and advocate such nauseating scenes as thousands of people walking the Harbour Bridge to say sorry. If each and everyone of those walkers was given a balanced and inbiased account of what is actually spent on helping our aboriginals and preferably spent a week ( including a Thursday night) in a community they might start to question those that manipulate them for their own political purposes.

The Torres Straits Islanders are totally different in how they manage and appreciate the money that is allocated to them. Build them a nice house and in a years time it will look better than when it was built, the yard is clean and tidy, there will be a garden and there will be obvious signs of pride. The house will last at least a generation, usually more.

In a lot of aboriginal communities, new houses are usually trashed within months of building, repair crews usually have to start again at the beginning to repair the damage and never finish. If there is a clean and tidy yard, it is the exception, not the rule.

The Whitlam era saw major changes in communities, the churches were instructed to stop interfering in their culture (teaching personal hygeine, growing sustainable fruit and vegetables instilling a set of wrong values, "ours" etc). In return unrestrained alcohol access was introduced, a pretty poor trade, I'm sure the alcohol has done more harm than the churches ever did.

By contrast, the Torres straits people have generally moderate alcohol consumption and still embrace Christianity very strongly, with their own priests, pastors bishops etc.

The RFDS probably spends a ignificant proportion of their budget on alcohol related medivacs from aboriginal communities, and the general public has a rosy view that they are a mantle of safety for the community at large.

Before attacking me in "shock - horror" , do some research and establish the veracity of what I have suggested.

The world is not a perfect place, our goverments are not perfect, but our goverment certainly commits Billions of our GNP (over $2Billion PA) to helping our aboriginal citizens.

Dan, there are no easy solutions to solving this dillemma, yet once these were proud people, skilled stockmen ( you still see the saddles being lavished with care, and I worked with respect under senior aboriginal stockmen in my youth).

They are now generally deprived of the dignity of honest work, having succumbed to the panacae of the handout.

They will continue probably as political pawns, with politicians wooing the voters by espousing policies to save them from something.

Please listen and learn, observe and relate, wherever possible from personal experience, rather than from what a politician wants you to believe.

And please, try to reconcile idealism with realism, it does get easier with age, however idealism is essential for change and improvement, realism merely accepts that which is.

We desperately need idealism, but severe bouts of reality are also needed.

Jatz

I'm sure you had a safe and interesting time in the NT community that you were in, but remember the majority of NT communities are "dry", with severe penalties for anyone connected with bringing alcohol into a community.

You will remember the warning signs at nearly every NT community airstrip detailing the penalties for bringing in alcohol. Imprisonment, seizure and confiscation of aircraft etc.

I spoke specifically of the problem created by the curse of white man's alcohol in aboriginal communities. Just as in a white community, a drunken mob has a different set of values and standards to a sobre community.

I do not endorse females living in communities with alcohol tolerated.
The rapes and assaults are a matter of record, particularly in Doomadgee, Aurakuun and Palm Island.

The attacks on females are not restricted to whites, it includes infant through adolescent female aboriginals.
That you lived in a safe and dry community must be taken into account if you are advocating females should have no concerns, just be "street smart", if living in a community.

Your acceptance into the community is commendable and indicates personal attributes that have taken you far in both your aviation and personal career.

Someone less "people skilled" than you may not have fared as well.

Sheep Guts

4th Dec 2002, 15:22

I have no quams about Mainframes view, the only thing that tics me. Is, you cant generalise, everyone does it these days, and when you generalise someone into specific groups ie Lefties etc.. its unfair.

What we need is more forums like this so everyone, or all Australians know exactly whats going on about the problems here in our Communities. These Communities are our own you know.
:)

Australians generally know more about the plight of starving Ethiopians for example, than whats actually going on in our own back yard.The media may be responsible who knows.

To backup what Mainframe was saying about the meaningless destruction to property..
In Port Keats in the NT, a dry community, has the highest rate of Youth Incarceration in Australia. Alcohol comes in all the time vehicles get confiscated, the court yard at the Police Station used to look like a used car lot for 4x4S etc.
Only 3 years ago Runway Lighting and a new asphalt runway was put in. Well I think in the first uear of operation every, and I mean every light was smashed a total of ten times, for no reason.

On the surface it seems there is a terrible problem rightly so.
The community is comprised of 16 Skin Groups all put there in one place from when it was a Mission. From what Ive noticed from repetitve visits, is that they have never really gelled so to speak. I have flown in many young prisoners back to the Port Keats Court house for prosecution and sentencing, fly them out again and half the community watches and chears them on from the perimeter fence when we head back to Darwin.It is a sad. These are young fellas that get a real kick ou tof going to a prison, they are worshiped by their peers for going to prison. Its a constant repetition that would sikin most Australians. Why You ask? How has it gone so far without what seems to be any attention. Well to the observer it seems like no attention, but not really there has been some but mainly in damage control rather than the route of the problem

These people have nothing to do, the youth are bored,cashless,beaten by their parents, they see all the great stuff on the television wand want yesterday for nothing. The mentality of handouts has converted a once proud people to a people of desperation. Youth SUICIDE in these communites is rife, I know at alot of NT Communities, now have steel spikes on all the Powerpoles to try and stop these suicides. But this only a Bandaid. Something more substantial has to be done. And I think the old addage" Throw more money" doesnt work anymore.

But it been a few years since Ive been to Port Keats, maybe things are changing.

Mainframe mentioned about during Whitlam times the Mission was effectively dissasembled. Well one community I know of partially avoided this in the NT, and thats Daly River Mission.The people there seem to live in harmony, clean streets, new housing all maintained, local industries etc. its definetly the sweet apple of NT Communties. HA if he reads this, may comment on Daly River aswell.

I agree with Mainframe, that people need to come and see for themselves, but also I think the media needs to show a balanced view. They often show all the physical without getting to the route of the problems. There is allways 2 sides to the story guys...

Just my view on all this

Regards
Sheep

Huron Topp

4th Dec 2002, 16:04

When I first started reading this, I swore I wouldn't toss in my two cents, but I just gotta! I'm not in Oz, I'm in Canada, but I'll be heading your way in March or so. The subject interests me greatly because I am a Canadian Aboriginal, what you guys probably (like in Europe) call Red Indians.

I live on a reserve, what you would call a "mission", I think. I didn't grow up on one and am thankful for that. Spent 9 years as an officer in the Air Force, as a navigator.

The description of life in your aboriginal communities is identical to the way it is here. Now, I'll tell you why its that way: mostly because there are too many damned people who share the same sentiments as Mainframe. It is that attitude that has caused the problems. What in the world do you think will happen to an entire culture when, for several generations, you literally rip families apart? You take the children, let churches do all the teaching, abuse them for speaking their language, call them trash unless they "become" white, tell them that everything they've ever been taught by their parents and/or elders is a crock of shyte, use them as slave labour and treat them as being more worthless than a slug. You allow clergy to sexually abuse, on a daily basis, both boys and girls and then tell them about Jesus. That is the reality of the situation!

Who introduced the alcohol to a people with no former tolerance of it? Has booze been worse for the people than the Church? No, because booze has become the solution to the Church in most people's minds. If I were to do all those things to you and yours, do you think that you would want to remain sober and remember?

Who then sent those same children, as adults, back to their communities? With no way of communicating with their elders, culturally or linguistically, what the heck do you think is going to happen?

Mainframe, it is you that needs the reality check. You maintain the same views as those who shot native people, on every continent, for sport. Those same views that would not allow native people to vote in elections until relatively recently. You might think that out of sight, out of mind is the way to go, but I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people like me who won't allow you to stick your head in the sand.

Will money solve the problem? Absolutely not. There is only one thing that will ever begin to make things better and that is RESPECT! Once you actually recognize Australian Aborigines as human beings, with the earth's oldest continuous culture, then and only then, will the situation improve. Both for them and for you.

Do you think people enjoy living the way they do? You, and others like you, seem to find it disgustingly easy to forget who put them on their "missions". Who destroyed their culture. Who refuses to have them as part of "your" community.

What really bugs me is people quoting "per capita" spending. Thats a crock if I've ever heard one. What ends up on the news or in the House is that "we are spending $$ per capita" on aboriginal people. Only problem is, that they don't mention that normally 50-70% of that is actually going to the non-aboriginal bureaucrats.

Please listen and learn, observe and relate, wherever possible from personal experience, rather than from what a politician wants you to believe.

I would suggest, sir, that you follow your own words, because without a doubt, my experiences are much closer to the truth than your own. As for research, I don't need to do any, because my research has been my life.

Dan, there are no easy solutions to solving this dillemma, yet once these were proud people, skilled stockmen ( you still see the saddles being lavished with care, and I worked with respect under senior aboriginal stockmen in my youth).

Man, this almost as bad as saying "well, some of my best friends are black (jewish, muslim etc.)

pa28capt: listen to those who have given GOOD advice. Have an open mind and leave any preconceptions behind. Seek out the elders, as suggested, and earn their friendship and respect. After that, all else will fall into place. Just remember, you are no different from them, not better, not worse. Just as someone who had the benefit(I'm assuming) of growing up in a system meant to support and not destroy.

My apologies for butting in, but their are times when I just can't keep my big mouth shut:D One of our old sayings goes like this: a man who lives without self-respect, is only pretending to live.

Fission

4th Dec 2002, 22:49

Some interesting thoughts coming out here - as we all agree that there those that 'Have actually lived there' and those that think they have.

There are communities that do well, others that do badly - like in any big city.

My time in the Territory has made me change my views several times. I shall be leaving with a mixture of pity, frustration, and anger.

I've seen many things that brought me close to tears, others that make me want to resort to slapping an individual. I'm not into politics and I won't even start to mention the waste, both in human suffering and financially.

Like most of the elders say - you have to want to help yourself. The 'young uns' are not embracing the culture like the elders and this is being lost to alcohol, violence, and greed. I'm also still seeing outsiders using the plight of communities to feather their own nest (the ANGER part above).

Pointing the finger of blame, or throwing money aren't going to help.

If you get the chance to go out there - GO, but with an open mind. Enjoy the beauty, the culture. Be strong and remember that you're not there to change the community.

Woomera

5th Dec 2002, 00:08

Huron Topp

Thank you for your contribution and perspective.

Your experience almost exactly mirrors our Aboriginal population which is not surprising since both countries were colonised by the British and other Europeans.

hoss

8th Dec 2002, 04:04

I can't believe it, no-one has mentioned those mangy, disease ridden 'community dogs' that roam around in packs.

When I think of 'community dogs', I think of shotguns.

hoss , Class of the Kimberley 94 - 00

the wizard of auz

9th Dec 2002, 13:25

I note with interest that there is a fair bit being said by people who have very little Idea of the actual facts of the story........ but I aint sticking my two bits in, because one is labeled a racist by people who dont have a clue, on this site for making observations.

Winstun

10th Dec 2002, 11:19

Flew several years for a half Canadian Indian chief pilot. Never before met such a hardcore closet racist. With several African negroes under his employ, once seriously confided in me that if a black ever had sex (consentual) with his mature age daughter (late 20s), he would put a bullet in their head, whatever the consequences for him.

Topp, who should the Aboriginal respect?
The white man who has served and worked with, for and in the outback communities, is somewhat honest and open of his dislike of the aboriginal culture today and his own system that feeds it.
Or the white man that hides in his urban glasshouse, gratified by a sunday afternoon march for people he would be horrified to ever have move in the house next door.

We are nearly all racists to some extent, but let the truth be out that we can face it and question it.

Huron Topp

10th Dec 2002, 13:06

Winstun,

clearly its a two-way street. Nowhere did I say that Aboriginal people were without racism. For the most part, its the system that has done it to them. And, strangely enough, those who are not full-bloods are the ones who have the most hatred for others, probably because they hate themselves. Government systems have created a "them and us" situation, based on what they call "blood quantum". Personally, I have never met a full-blood who is a racist, while I know of many, if not most, mixed-bloods who are.

Its something I experience every day of my life. I'm a breed, with just about every "old world" mixture in me: english, irish, scottish, french, and of course, the "indian". In my case Huron Iroquois. Alot of my old white friends could never figure out why I wanted to be native, and many indians have called me a "wanabee' (because I'm not "registered"). I am what I am, simple enough. If I deny one part of me, then I'm dishonouring my entire family, white or indian. My wife is as full-blooded as any member of her Nation, the Mi'kmaq, but she still has some french and even a squirt of black in her from many generations ago.

I don't know of any native person here who has any time for the type of person you mention, the closet racist. You know, its very much like a sunday Christian. You know the type: they go to church every sunday, but for the rest of the week they are the most "evil" individual you could ever meet. They kick dogs, cheat on their taxes or wives etc.

I don't think anyone would go work in an aboriginal community just for the money, pilot or otherwise. Someone mentioned that they found out they were racist only after going to work in an aboriginal community. Thats what happens most often. Once you're there, you see the situation as it really is, and it doesn't take long to understand the cause.

I think your use of the phrase "aboriginal culture of today", with the emphasis on "today", says it all. I have no respect for the culture of today,because it is based on Eurocentric values, not the values of our ancestors. Its based on money and division, them and us. What we can get from them, and what they owe us. Thats definately NOT how I want my kids to grow up.

I have the greatest respect for people who live and work in any remote community, aboriginal or otherwise. Regardless of skin colour, the life itself is the hardest of any. The last thing people need to contend with is racism.

Personally, I think the "do-gooders", those who have big mouths but have never been to, nor lived in, an aboriginal community should put up or shut up. They should get off their soapboxes and actually go live in a community, even if its only for a short time. That would definately bring out their true colours, don't you think?

I know that I haven't labeled anyone a racist here. I wouldn't do that unless I actually met them.;) Fact is, most of the comments made are equally as true here, as they are over there. We have the same booze problems, the same housing problems, the same abuse problems. Heck, in the community my wife originally comes from, there is not a single woman over the age of 30 who not been sexually abused. Actually, I doubt that there is a single person who hasn't been, male or female, and most often by a close relative.:mad: That is what the system has done. My wife, who was taken away and adopted into a white family (one of the Lost Generations) went through the same crap, not in her community, but in the foster homes she lived in. Her and a younger sister actually lived in a closet for almost a year, only coming out when the social service people showed up for a visit. They were only 7 and 4 at the time.

Anyone, of whatever skin colour or culture, who supports that kind of system, should be shot. On the other hand, I think it would be better to force them to live that way first, a long-suffering death...:D

I've always seen people involved in aviation as being true revolutionaries, always pushing the limits of whatever they are involved in. Maybe we've started something here? I know that this forum is certainly the last place I ever thought I'd be writing a little dissertation on life in an aboriginal community. Zoomies are definately a strange bunch, aren't we, no matter where we come from?

Winstun

10th Dec 2002, 20:15

Topp, I see all your points.

What I see is the general Australian population and current generations think they have ridded themselves of the injustices to the Aborigines. A sunny afternoon march to most, is a selfish feel good thing. These same people as I said, would never live amoung the Aborigine. They vote year in, year out for the same racist governments, a reflection of themselves.

As an Australian that has lived in many places, I clearly see most of my countrymen have a 'believe your own bullsh*t view of themselves, very different from reality. For example, many white Aussies see themselves as tough, outdoor, adventure types. But for many, the reality is, the closest that they get to adventure in a normal day, is a latte at the corner coffee shop or watching Steve Irwin on the TV.

Most would say they care about the Aborigines, and march to prove it. But the reality is, they would rather remain ignorant and deaf to any real problems of today. 'It's just not nice to talk about.' They are more interested who the soap TV actors have been bonking of late. You only need to see the obsession here with cheap gossip, whether it be reading the papers, women's magazines, or pathetic feel good TV shows. It's all the same sh*t, just keeps going around again.

You are right, people should have to spend at least a few days out in the communities and get a reality check. They won't like it.

High Altitude

10th Dec 2002, 22:02

Yep living on a community you are often the subject of racism. Hey you white *unt... But there is really no posion behind it. Yes it is the half casts that can potentially cause huge problems. I know of a bloke whom 20 years ago would have flattened you if you called him a blackfella at school, now if you called him a white fella he would wanna deck ya... See he is using his color to his benefit, and why wouldn't you???

It is amazing when you talk to the people that "care" about the plight of the Aborigine, it is so easy to get into a full on argument when you put across your point of view. See it is so easy sitting in Sydney "caring" doing jack sh*t really.

I don't know the answer, I am tipping I could become very wealthy if I did... I do know that in the NT I have seen some remarkable changes in commuities. Lets face it, it boils down to education... Oenpelli started it with the pool, no school, no pool and didn't the class attendances rise...

Pseudonymn

10th Dec 2002, 23:45

I thought this might have some relevance if anyone was interested.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/10/1039379836054.html

Man who lives in two worlds
By Steve Meacham
December 11 2002

You can imagine the controversy if Nicole Kidman or Russell Crowe was shown smoking marijuana on the national broadcaster. But this week one of Australia's best-known actors will be seen smoking a bong on an ABC documentary - and no one will turn a hair.

Since 1971, when he became an overnight sensation in Walkabout, Nicholas Roeg's classic about a clash of cultures, David Gulpilil has been the world's favourite Aboriginal star. His credits include some of the greatest movies made in this country: Storm Boy (1976), The Last Wave (1977), Crocodile Dundee (1986) and, this year, both The Tracker and Rabbit-Proof Fence (for which he received AFI nominations for best actor and best supporting actor respectively).

There have been moments of glitz and glamour. He learned to drink alcohol with John Mellion and Dennis Hopper. He has partied with Bob Dylan and joined John Lennon on the roof as the Beatles recorded 'Get Back'. He's been nominated for more awards than most actors dream of and has been honoured with an Order of Australia medal. Yet here he is, half naked on the dirt floor of a humpy, slowly getting stoned.

For filmmaker Darlene Johnson, it was pretty amazing that Gulpilil allowed her to shoot the dope scene. Even more startling was the fact he had the chance to cut it from her documentary, Gulpilil - One Red Blood, but chose to leave it in.

"What's amazing about David is his candidness," she says. "I have more respect for him because he chose to show that side. As he says, he wanted 'No bull****'."

The two met "in a bar, as you do" on the set of Rabbit-Proof Fence. The Aboriginal filmmaker had been shooting a documentary about the making of Phillip Noyce's epic and was about to fly to New York because Stolen Generation, her best-known work, had been nominated for an Emmy Award.

Gulpilil told her how much he had enjoyed Stolen Generations and suggested she make a documentary about his own life. Johnson, 32, was both amazed and flattered. Amazed no one had thought of documenting Gulpilil's life before, flattered because, as she puts it: "I'm a Koori. Here's an Aborigine based on tribal land in Arnhem Land asking me, a white-skinned young woman from an urban setting, to make a film for posterity, something he could pass down to his family."

What makes Gulpilil unique is his ability, as he says, "to live in two worlds". There's the world of movies, premieres, airline tickets. And then there's his traditional life - hunting kangaroos and crocodiles as his ancestors did for centuries before him in his tribal homelands.

"That's the real me on screen," Gulpilil said. "I walk on red carpets and eat caviar but this is where my paradise is, where I was born. I'm the same person in both worlds. I wanted the documentary to show how I live and where I hunt."

As soon as the documentary begins, you realise Gulpilil is different. "I don't know how old I am," he says. "I think I'm 48 ... maybe 50." Many of his Aboriginal contemporaries are dead and Johnson believes that's why Gulpilil was so keen to see the documentary made; as if he felt time was running out to record his contribution to Australian culture and the rebuffing of racial stereotypes.

In the documentary Jack Thompson recalls the impact of Walkabout: "No Australian director would have made an Aboriginal man so sexily attractive to a western woman." Only four years earlier, in Journey out of Darkness, the key Aboriginal roles had been played by a blacked-up white actor and an Asian, Kamal.

Gulpilil's career nose-dived in the 1990s, partly because he asked for "a million dollars" to appear in Crocodile Dundee 2. It was a tough time, with petrol sniffing and alcohol getting a grip on Ramingining, where he lives. But Gulpilil and other elders have now made it a dry community and the petrol sniffing has been conquered.

Gulpilil is pleased with Johnson's warts-and-all portrait. "It tells my missing story," he says.

Gulpilil: One Red Blood airs on the ABC today at 8.30pm.

exmexican

11th Dec 2002, 02:30

Huron, you're talking about conquered races here. It's just natural selection at work, nothing personal.

Desert Flower

11th Dec 2002, 02:45

A few years ago I saw the actor mentioned above board the RPT flight at a small country town. He was already sloshed, & probably shouldn't have been allowed on the aircraft. However, imagine what would have happened if he wasn't. Everyone would have been blamed as being racist - never mind the fact that he was making a complete nuisance of himself, before the aircraft even departed. During the 1hr 40 min flight he partook of the "onboard refreshments" (read alcohol) & repeatedly told the other passengers who he was. I for one would not bother to watch any program with him in it.

Huron Topp

11th Dec 2002, 19:00

Winstun and HA, agree with all you both say.

Pseudo, good article that shows it is possible to live in both worlds. Heck, I've been doing it for 38 years.:D

DF, as PIC you shoulda just chucked him out. I would, no matter what colour or culture a dude came from.

exmex: figured sooner or later someone would use this old line. Shows that the lazy-minded are still out and about. As for being conquered, I'll use terms that your type can understand...maybe you and I should meet out behind the boozer, and I'll show you who's conquered. Maybe you should live by the words of your signature, eh?

Chimbu chuckles

12th Dec 2002, 11:43

Huron Topp...a question that's bemused me for some time.

Some years ago I was watching a series called 'How the West was lost' ...the real story of the 'conquering' of the West rather than the John Wayne version.

Many interviews with many Native Americans, I can't remember the tribe...they all seemed to be from the same tribe.

At one stage they were talking to a Native American female Lawyer or Author or Historian (can't remember) about the Indian tribes that had lived on 'their' land before them, LONG before the white man turned up.

To paraphrase her answer it was along the lines of, "My ancesters were mighty warriors and we just killed them all and took their land."

It was said in a manner, and tone of voice, totally devoid of any sense of irony or injustice to those long lost tribes...they just don't exist anymore!!!

The entire, very interesting, series was tainted for me by that one answer.

The irony for me is that eventually a 'mightier warrior' group turned up and did to them as they had done to others...

I have a very hard time accepting that actions of several hundred years ago can be judged by the moral codes of today. Note here I'm not talking about some of the terrible things enacted in the 50s, 60s and 70s when it can be argued that society should have known better.

Too we hear a hell of a lot of bad stories of the 'Stolen Generations'...often by individuals who were raised by white families and given wonderful education opportunities and are now Lawyers, Historians, Authors, Film makers etc etc...then we see film of kids with runny noses and big bellies caused by an unbalanced diet (to high in starch) running around a filthy settlement with little, if anything, in the way of opportunities to better themselves.

Perhaps I think it just needs a little more balance to possibly show that the terrible things done to some in these circumstances were done by sick individuals rather than a sick system?

Look at all the white kids interfered with by members of the church etc which, compared to the 'Stolen Generations' hardly seems to rate a mention.

My only direct 'experience' of Australian Aborigines is while driving a taxi in Sydney 20 years ago, and being based in Darwin for a year...and watching Aboriginal men drunk as lords beating the $hit out of their women in the park opposite my unit...and when I rang the cops in an effort to 'help' the poor women the police patrols, which were usually every few minutes, all of a sudden became scarce as rocking horse poo!!

On the other hand I once knew a young Aboriginal who was a very well spoken, highly educated and wonderfully articulate Australian Army officer...raised in a white family. I was once flown in a helicopter by a young mixed race Aboriginal pilot...a throughly nice young bloke out building hours and very professional to boot.

I once was introduced, by one of my FAs, to two young Aboriginal NT Police Officers in a night club in Alice Springs while on an overight...well spoken, well dressed, liked a beer, liked a laugh and a good joke...god did we laugh that night!!

Then there was the ones who, even though they had all the benefits of being 'Stolen', and who had deep affection for their Foster Parents/white family, played the "You owe me/I'm Aboriginal" card constantly to get ahead before seniority/skill levels/experience would otherwise dictate.

While my experience of Australian Native Peoples is limited and mixed I spent 13 years living and flying in PNG...and is therefore somewhat more comprehensive.

PNG, a country which had wondrous promise of bountyfull wealth and resources, which now lays close to anarchy, and that's giving PNG the benefit of the doubt and the term anarchy the most liberal translation. A country that was 'all set to go' in 1973 is now in economic and social ruin.

To experience racialist behaviour as a 'white' person there are two really eye opening avenues.

1/. Live in a predominately 'black' country and be discriminated against on the basis of your 'expat white' status. Even though the people doing the discrimating would NOT be where they are if not for the efforts of, in the case of PNG, generations of expats.
2/. Watch the hatred, misstrust and discrimination dished out by 'blacks' against 'blacks'... PNG is rife with that... Africa is another place where this is in stark relief...Zimbabwe, where I spent a year as a 19 year old..the last year of Rhodesia!!, is a classic example among numerous...Rwanda ring a bell!!.

Tell me South Africa is a better place now for Black or White than it was when I first went there in 1974...and no I'm NOT an Apartheid appologist...but I do remember Bantu Universities where many Black Africans got excellent educations...I have been to 'Black' suburbs (Soweto actually...the 'Township' you always see on TV was a few miles away..named after the Suburb) with their far share of BMWs parked in the driveways (and I'm talking about 27 years ago)...I do remember White African farmers whose respect for and caring for 'their Blacks' extended to housing, food, education, medication and a 'job for life'...and when I say respect I mean the sort of deep empathy and affection I witnessed between a 'White' farmer and a very old 'Black' worker who had worked for that Farmers Father...and who had bounced that Farmer on his knee when he was a baby...they could communicate without words.

And yes I do remember 'white only' beaches, busses, public toilets etc etc. Look at those facilities now and you don't wonder why the 'segregation'.

I'm not trying to minimise the bad things that have been done to whomever by whomever over many, MANY years...but 27 years of watching and experiencing ( I was 14 when I first went to Africa with my father, 15 when I first visited PNG) have shown me that perception is not always reality...the experience is not all bad...but we never hear the good...we rarely hear the real reasons for the 'bad'...or the ways in which good intention ended up as bad result.

Chuck.

Huron Topp

12th Dec 2002, 17:10

Chuckles,

have some mates up just south of you heli-bombing fires at the moment, nice to hear from you.

Not even gonna try to get into the PNG or South Africa comments. I'm just not familiar enough, personally to comment. However, an interesting little note for you, when the SA government was first setting up the apartheid system they went to Canada and did a tour of some of the native reserves here, just to get a feel for how you can lock people up on little plots of land.

The series you mention, and the interview specifically, refers to the Navajo and Apache people and their decades long battles with the Anasazi. The former were originally from Northern Canada and about 1000 years ago decided a little sun would be nice, so they headed several thousand miles south into what is now the south-west U.S.(Arizona, New Mexico), And yes, from oral tradition, they did defeat the Anasazi. The majority of Anasazi were adopted into the navajo and Apache peoples. Others, and their descendants, form what are now known as the various Pueblo peoples in the area. So, as a distinct culture and people, yes they were beaten, but they still exist as distinct smaller groups.

The problem has never been that Europeans came and "conquered". That would be a distortion of the truth and historical fact. What happened in virtually every case, is that Euros signed Treaties with aboriginal nations, and then broke them. As a matter of historical fact, every single Treaty between aboriginal people in North America has been broken. Every last one, out of some 400 or so. Broken by the U.S., Canada (and britain and France before them). Our ancestors had no experience dealing with people who were so full of dis-hounour. Our people very rarely fought Europeans, normally we chose sides and fought beside one of them. But, when we did fight Euros, on virtually every occasion, we won.

Just like anywhere else, different peoples fought for glory and land. But never has an entire people been wiped out in warfare. Sure there are those who would like to think that this was just a paradise before before Euros arrived, with no wars or famine etc.
Fact is, many of the old tribal hatreds still exist, but nothing even close to what happens in Africa.

Can the actions of several hundred years ago be judged by todays standards? No. But, the problem remains that there are still far too many people who have the same beliefs that existed several hundred years ago. Thats a simple fact.

Too we hear a hell of a lot of bad stories of the 'Stolen Generations'...often by individuals who were raised by white families and given wonderful education opportunities and are now Lawyers, Historians, Authors, Film makers etc etc...then we see film of kids with runny noses and big bellies caused by an unbalanced diet (to high in starch) running around a filthy settlement with little, if anything, in the way of opportunities to better themselves.

Would it not have been better for the individuals, families etc. to have chosen to pursue these "wonderful" opportunities? Remember, this happened mostly in the past 50 years, not several hundred years ago. Mine did, at least for the past 3 generations. My old man was a pilot in the Air Force, my brother is an Engineer and I was a Navigator in the Air Force, with mom having been a teacher for 35 years.

Perhaps I think it just needs a little more balance to possibly show that the terrible things done to some in these circumstances were done by sick individuals rather than a sick system?

I would have to disagree, as it was/is the system that allowed them to be there in the first place. It was the system that held lotteries to see which denomination got to take which kids into their schools. It was the system that turned a blind eye when complaints were first being made, and it is now the system that has tried to wash its hands of a situation which was their creation.

Obviously, we are now finding out just how disgusting the actions of many so-called religious people have been, against both native, white, black etc. But, when a white child is taken and adopted (for whatever reason), the intent is not to destroy an entire culture. That was why aboriginal kids were taken, to destroy the culture and the entire people, to force them to "integrate" into the bigger society.

You mention good intentions going bad. I won't disagree, thats for sure. Unfortunately, what happens is that people start pointing out that the good intentions are actually self-serving and harmful, but nothing changes. Do you think that churches actually went into communities with the sole intent of educating? Their true intent was educating people, without consent, into their denomination's religious beliefs. Were the governments' intentions to educate and integrate, or were they to annhialate. I'd say the answer is pretty obvious.

A great example of the truth behind governments' intents, is where people were put when reserves were first set up. With high moral standards, and of course with the aboriginal people's best interests at heart, governments' proclaimed that normally nomadic people must become farmers. But, where were they put? They were forced to try and farm land that was a swamp, or was solid granite under 1/2 an inch of soil. Thats the reality. Where did the prime land go? I don't really need to answer that...do I?:rolleyes:

I would bet that there are very few people who know that the democratic system that so many hold dear, and that most would thank the U.S. for, came in fact from the "savages" of North America? hmmm...

Sheep Guts

12th Dec 2002, 19:43

Huron Top,
It wont be until the history books in our Colleges and High Schools are rewritten and show the real history of colonization, a more balanced in view, that the mindsets on this issue are erased, or changed.
We in Australia are starting to come to grips with the fact that our mere 200 odd years of colonisation wasnt exactly all apples.
When I was at School finished 1985 they were still teaching about the discovery and colonisation from a European point of view, anything to do with aboriginal culture and how they were treated was glazed over and not even mentioned most of the time. Im sure this teaching sylabus, isnt just confined to Australia, I beleive its still alive in your continent aswell.

To think that Australias colonial history is still just around 200 years, yet we did not learn from the mistakes made in colonising the Americas, and Africa or Asia all of whom had a colonisation history going back 5-600 years. Is hard to understand. :rolleyes:

I have been working in the Caribbean and Central America for the past 3 years or so. I am quite horrified, at what the English,Spanish,French,Dutch,Portugese and Germans did in this part of the world, its a wonder that any indigenous peoples have survived. The plundering, raping and hoarding of the riches back to Europe just continued on when Australia was colonized. Aussies are still coming to grips with it. Especially now that the Stolen Generations have come finally to the news front in Australia, and calling by Indigenous Groups for an official apology. I myself have no quams about an apology, lets do it I say. To say that its only a financial reason not to say sorry, are a little short sited, we have to think of our kids now and what they percieve as being right as for reconcilliation, eduaction on these issues. This is a World issue I think even in Mexcio now they are just finally recognizing the Indigenous Mayan ancestors in Chiapas, known as the Zapatistas, by starting conversation rather than force..

Regards
Sheep

Its good discussing this stuff, the more we do it, maybe it can turn to actions rather words. Lets hope........

:)

Winstun

12th Dec 2002, 21:20

Chuck,

'Your experience with Aborigines'

There are a hell of lot of white men in Australia beating the sh*t out their women, they just got houses to do it in. Too bad you don't get to experience it.

You once knew of some well-spoken and dressed Aborigines.
How very nice for you.

I'm so happy for your South African white farmer's deep empathy and affection for a very old black worker. Makes me all warm inside - shame bout the other 30 mill or so, young ones too.
For many, freedom is somewhat more important than a clean toilet or a nice beach. South Africa not a nice place for you perhaps.

You did say you were a Sydney taxi driver.
No comment. :rolleyes:

CoodaShooda

12th Dec 2002, 22:54

(I wasn't going to contribute to this...but enough's enough)

Winstun
Just for the record, one Aboriginal woman in three is subject to serious assault each year and an Aboriginal woman is 22 times more likely to be murdered than a white woman. The perpetrators are Aboriginal males who (usually) claim its their traditional right to treat their kin in this fashion.
(Actually these were the figures in 1997, I understand the situation has further deteriorated and they only relate to reported cases.)

The Stolen Generation report was discredited by all Governments as it relied on untested testimony and those condemned by the witnesses were given no opportunity to defend themselves. This is not to say that the witnesses aren't genuine in their views and emotions but it is dangerous to assume they were mistreated by their carers on the basis of their race.

From my dealings with a number of gentlemen personally involved in removals in the 60's and 70's, there is no doubt that they did so with the welfare of the child as their paramount concern. Actually no different to Social Services putting white children into care.

The quality of care is a separate issue but there is sufficient material to suggest that few children in care have enjoyed the experience, regardless of racial background. Ever read Oliver Twist, how about Bert Facey's "A Fortunate Life", David Niven's "The Moon's a Balloon"? How about the 'orphans' shipped around the Empire? Was their treatment any better than that given to the 'stolen children'?

Was it better to place the child in care and develop them into useful members of society, or see them treated as outcaste within the tribe, ignored, used as a slave, malnourished, brutalised and unlikely to live past their teens? Remember most of the children were of mixed race and were not accepted as full members of either society.

To our modern eye, the policies of the past are abhorrent but they reflected contemporary thought and behaviour.

I wonder how the 24th century will view our politically correct times. I'd hazard a guess that we'll be judged as being just as destructive of indigenous culture as our forebears.

Capt Claret

13th Dec 2002, 00:41

G'day Chuckles, I'd like to play devil's advocvcate for a bit. It'll take just a little imagination.

I know from some of your past posts, you hold your 'old man' in high esteem.

Now imagine if when Chuckles was a young'un that Bill Gates, richest man in the world and well known for his philanthropy, decided that he'd like to 'adopt' a child to offer said child the very best that his billions could offer.

Imagine that he chose none other than Chimbu Chuckles! You could not argue that Gates with his billions is not in a better position to offer you, as a you grow, more than your beloved dad could with his meagre QF salary.

Would you grow up happy and well adjusted because of the wonderful opportunity that Gates had given you? I doubt it.

I know that my folks struggled to bring up my family. My old man died when I was 17. He used to give me curry and I often deserved it, sometimes not :D. BUT absolutely NOTHING in the known universe would make me wish for more wonderful opportunities from foster parents. I'll bet nothing would make you wish for different parents than the ones you had/have.

So, in my view, even if there was a level of well meaning in offering education etc to the stolen generations, nothing excuses stealing children from their family and then telling the children that their family didn't want or love them, refusing all content and puting the children for the most part into service. Bugga all education and better upbringing being a virtual slave!

I happen to believe that this stated view, education and better upbringing, was used to disguise the real intent, that of breeding the Aboriginal into extinction.

I know, and you possibly do too, a stolen generation person. The lingering effects of what happened to this person's family albeit a generation or so ago are real, and for me, heart breaking to witness.

exmexican

13th Dec 2002, 01:11

Huron, yes I'll stand by my signature, always do. From the information in your posts, you appear to be a well educated, respectable, hard working member of the global community. I like to think that I am too. Educated folks do not sort out their differences "behind the boozer". I would require no stimulants to meet with you in an exchange of views. Opinions are conclusions based on grounds short of facts, with your input mine may change.
I am not unsympathetic to the plight of indigenous people all over the world, but you must conceed that as individuals, of all colors, it is what we do now that matters. Let's make sure history is not bound, by our actions, to repeat itself.
I'm finding your posts informative and well constucted, keep them coming to us Downunder. Your claim about the system of government being based on a indigenous model had me puzzled though, it seems pretty similar to most western democratic styles based on the Westminster system. Enlighten me.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers.

Dogimed

13th Dec 2002, 01:35

Capt Claret,

What about if in your example, even though the parent was loved and adored, said paid would get trunk, belt into, rape and carry on as well. Which would be the better option?

From what I have heard, weren't white, coloured and full black babies taken? not *just* the abroginal children?

Regards

Dog

Chimbu chuckles

13th Dec 2002, 07:50

Winstun,

I think you read into my post something that isn't there...

If relating my experiences, albeit limited in some areas & possibly biassed is unacceptable to you then I suggest Pprune, or any other BB, is probably not for you.

But please enlighten me on how the Zimbabweans are so much better off under Mugabe?

Or while on the topic of Africa in general point out some, even remotely successfull countries that aren't ruled by meglomaniacs, warlords, tyrants or just plain dishonest, incompetent idiots or which aren't racked by constant wars, crime, famine, disease and tribal hatred.

Why is it that people from PNG, both educated and not, are more and more wishing that Australia would come back and administer PNG...admittedly an impossible scenario to comprehend actually happening but who would argue that PNG's citizens wouldn't be infinitely better off if it did?

Clarry,

I think the comparison you make is not valid...once again it only highlights the bad in one area while ignoring the bad in the other. This is why I'd like to see more balance in these discussions in the media...it's quite acceptable to bash the Govt policies and the people who carried them out but very un PC to highlight the perceived difficiencies within the society that the children were removed from. The end result may not have been great, and I have zero tolerance for Religon and Govt, but what would have been the result/ life experience of those children if nothing was done?

My Dad was certainly a stern disciplinarian and made his fair share of mistakes, as do I with my Daughter...but if I was being bashed, watching my mother, siblings bashed/raped, sick all the time, exposed to petrol sniffing, alcoholism etc etc I think I'd be a lot happier living with Uncle Bill...by the way I've met Bill Gates and been inside his private jet, he's a nice guy...apart from being responsible for the 21st centuries greatest oxymoron..Microsoft works:D

Huron Topp...you make very good points and I would have to agree that the indigenous peoples of the Americas were treated shamefully...as elsewhere Govts controlled by big religion and the greed of private enterprise, militaristic pusuits of conquest etc...the world was a different place up to say the middle of the 20th Century...I wunder whether any minority ethnic groups were treated much differently by other more powerfull groups anywhere in the world...it would seem to me that we have only entered a time when 'might is right' is a little less directly violent in the last 30 years or so. But now we see the Globalisation push by multi-nationals having a similar effect...same BS just a different 'look'.

The length and breadth of the '3rd world', and I include those portions of Australia that qualify for that term, are racked by every sort of corrupt mismanagement and divided up by experts in making a less than honorable buck. The 'affluent' parts of society throw money at the problems but are told that won't work...in fact nothing seems to work.

Whatever is done in an effort to alleviate problems gets diverted somewhere else in large part...by people of both ethnic backgrounds but it seems to me more disgraceful when their 'own people' do it...as happens A LOT!!!

People mutter that 'there's just no answer'...there are answers but I suspect they are unpalatable/politically impossible in this 'enlightened age'.

Chuck.

Yakka

13th Dec 2002, 15:00

Some of you guys have it spot on, the rest of you wake up.

Aboriginals are the victims of their own culture, this is 2002 people. I hate to say it but, primitave cultures dont fit in todays society no matter ho hard we try. the earth is only so big and though aborigines have been protected for some time now, it will become to inconveniant to this do forever. Ther culture isn't adaptive enough to suvive unless it changed (note the irony in that sentance). money isn't their problem, they have f#$k loads of it. And it's controlled by them and they miss use it i.e for that ceremony eh. what happen to the time when thay walked to funerals instead of getting six milingimby charters. Now they are fat and lazy. wee sit under big mob tree eh. you guys that have been there know what i'm talking about

Yakka

Huron Topp

13th Dec 2002, 16:29

WOW!! I never figured this topic would still be alive, seeing as it has certainly gone past the original question.

I'll not even attempt to answer individual remarks, or I'd be here all day:eek: , so I'll just ramble on, if I may.

What seems not to be sinking in with many, is that regardless of the fact that children of all cultures and races have been taken into custody by child protection services, both here and in Oz, the simple fact remains that when aboriginal children were taken there was only one intent: cultural genocide. It does not matter in the least that there were individuals who honestly believed they were "helping", whether it was through education, religion etc. That may not necessarily hold true now, as governments realize that we ain't goin' anywhere. Here, we've survived over 500 years of attempted genocide and assimilation. It just won't work. As Popeye used to say, "I am what I am, and thats all what I am".

The problems that exist now in aboriginal communties exist because the system put them there: alcoholism, sexual abuse, physical abuse etc. They ALL stem from what governments have done in the past. If, in any community regardless of race, you take away what we consider to be the basic freedoms(speech, religion, movement, language etc.), the end result becomes obvious. If you take the future generations away, what are you left with? If they return, what are they returning to? The answer to both is nothing.

Do I like or agree with what happens in our communities? Absolutely not. The abuses, the corruption, the utter hopelessness; these things make me sick. But, I understand why they exist. Slowly these things will change, but it will take at least another generation, if not more. The abuses of hundreds of years cannot be fixed overnight.

Although I may be considered well educated, respectable, hard working member of the global community. I am still, in every fibre of my being, an aboriginal North American. That, in the end, is what people always see. People are shocked to know that I don't touch alcohol at all, not even in cough syrup. Anything else that might alter my perceptions never enters my body. That goes to my spiritual beliefs. OK, OK, I smoke, but that doesn't count:D Tobacco is ours, after all. What I'm getting at is about preconceptions. The majority look at all aboriginal people as being drunk, wife abusing, lazy nothings. For those who do fit the description, you MUST look to the system that created them.

but what would have been the result/ life experience of those children if nothing was done?

They would have grown up, maybe not in the way "society" finds acceptable, but nonetheless, they would have had their own choices. Some would fail and others would succeed. But by taking the choices away from the family, you effectively destroy the individual, the family and the entire community.
Was it better to place the child in care and develop them into useful members of society
Sounds to me as if you are referring to the training of a new puppy here?! And obviously the question arises: whose society?

There is a concept that we have here in raising children, and I would bet that in Australia the same holds true, or at least, held true before all the interference started. From the moment children are born, they are taught good from bad and right from wrong. When they stray from the right path they are gently corrected, up until an age when they can use what they have learned to make their own informed decisions. At that point, we do not interfere. If they make the wrong choices, we will give support, but not interfere in whatever consequences may arise. They are fully responsible for their actions. From birth, children are seen as small adults. They aren't shielded from life's hardships, they get to see all of it's nastiness.

We are taught not to think of ourselves, but to look seven generations ahead, as any actions we may commit now, will reverberate that far into the future. This is a very basic concept in our beliefs. That, however, becomes impossible, when even one generation is 'destroyed". Yet how many generations have been destroyed to this point? Three, four?

The past cannot be changed, but it cannot be forgotten either, nor can it denied. Unfortunately, as with any trauma, denial is one of the steps people must go through. That is the point we are at now. Too many non-aboriginal people would deny what the system has done and will, at every opportunity, blame the victims. We as aboriginal people, will too often deny that any problems exist in our communities, because we do not want any more outside interference, because we know that it was outside interference that put us where we are today.

Within every aboriginal community their exists a small group of people who were lucky to escape the depredations personally, for whatever reason. It is these people that are seen as being "normal" by outside individuals, but in many cases are treated like dirt by their own people. Why? Becasue they escaped. I know, because I am one of these people.

One major problem is of course, the corruption that does exist in every aboriginal community. But hey, why should we be different than the rest of society?:D If you look at the so-called community leaders, who do you think they are? The majority are those who went through the hell of church-run schools. They are the people that were taught the ways of the bigger society. They are disfunctional individuals not by choice, but because of what the system has done to them.

Yakka's post snuck in while I was editing, so I'll reply to it individually: you know, I'd bet that when Euros first arrived in North America and Australia, the aboriginal people said the exact same thing: they are too primitive, they fight over religion and the only medicine they have is leeches. On the same line, using your logic, the Western ie. Australian, American, European cultures will disappear shortly as well, to be replaced by the Asian. Talk about being outnumbered.:eek: Oh, and by the way, forget about buying groceries this week...you're not allowed. I don't care if its your money, I say that you're not allowed, because I don't like what you eat. Thats sarcasm, by the way, but I hope you get the point. Not adaptable? really? Then how come we're still here, and apparently, a real thorn in your side? And finally, when was the last time time you walked to a funeral, eh? Geez, what a buffoon.:rolleyes: Next, you'll want to check how many sheets of toilet paper they're using.

To specifically answer exmex's question on government: 500 years ago there was no truly democratic system of government outside of many aboriginal nations in North America. The Brit system was set up by the peerage, for the peerage, and even Cromwell, never really changed that even though he had the benefit of knowing how the system worked over here. The Greeks are mostly credited with creating democracy, but there as well, it was a system created by the nobles, for the nobles.

Then, the world turned to the newly created United States. They are usually credited with the creation of today's democratic system. But, they stole it from the Iroquoian Nations, specifically the Six Nations Confederacy, or Hodenaussane(People of the Longhouse). But, with their Euro thinking, they even screwed that up.

In the Iroquois system, women ran the show. All property and children fell within the female line, not the male. A man truly owned only the clothes on his back, his tools and weapons. The senior woman in each family line, along with her peers, chose the leaders(men), based on the suggestion (or votes) of all members of her lineage, male and female. Should she go against these wishes, she could be removed. Once a leader was in "office", he too could be removed if he did not follow the council of the members who put him there. "Aliens", from other nations, once adopted into a family, had full rights of any citizen, which included thousands of whites. Full consensus among leaders was required before decisions were made, no parrying back and force between "parties" where the majority rules the day. Every individual from the youngest to oldest had their say and their opinions really mattered.

When the U.S founding fathers came out with their Declaration of Independance, it was meant for white males only. Women had no rights, and of course, neither did slaves. They didn't even know what type of government to set up initially. At first, they were going to appoint George Washington as King. It was not until meeting with a delegation of chiefs from the Six Nations, who explained their system of leadership, did the "americans" know how to proceed. They even adopted the Iroquois coat of arms as their own, but changed one element to signify war, instead of peace.

I could go on forever, as I'm sure you've noticed, but I'll leave it for now. The olde fingers are tired, and there are times when it seems easier just to go bash my head against a brick wall. But, just maybe...

Winstun

13th Dec 2002, 21:34

Topp,

You hit on a major point here: society.

As I mentioned before, white Australians have a very high 'believe their own bullsdh*t' factor. They love to dish out their gospel worldwide about how 'society' should try to emulate theirs - that they consider so proudly. Fact is, when an outsider starts pointing out deficiencies in their own, they get real defensive and have some great excuse or pretend it doesn't exist.

For example, some facts of Australian white society: a very high level of domestic abuse (much of it unreported); a per capita crime rate double the USA in all areas except murder (serious physical assault, rape, theft, etc); child obesity and youth suicide -Australia is right up there at the top of the list; greenhouse polluters, the biggest per capita western polluters in the world.

I'm not saying white Australia is a bad place to live, its quite nice for most. A very large part of Australia's position today depended on and still depends on the country location, minerals in the ground and small population number to share that wealth. They seem to equate this to some great achievement of their intellect. :rolleyes:

High Altitude

14th Dec 2002, 02:21

200 years???????????

Not long is it?

80 years even less...

Money might be over flowing.....

Imagine trying to change our culture and way of life overnigt... na wouldn't work...

Transition Layer

16th Dec 2002, 02:04

We all know what the major problem is (alcohol), but how do we get rid of it when we (meaning the non-aboriginal population), embrace it so strongly.

Halls Creek going crazy again... (http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-16dec2002-44.htm)

grrowler

16th Dec 2002, 04:20

TL, how are ya buddy?

I see the crack hasn't changed, did you see it first hand? Needed old shyboy there with his "night vision" like old times :D

My view on this subject:

All through history, nations, tribes, whatever else you would like to call them, have been wiping each other out - entirely. Part of my European heritage comes from Prussia (where the **** is that you ask - it doesn't exist anymore!). People around the globe have been (and still are) forced to forget their old cultures, and integrate with their conquerors. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I just don't think that the things that have happened in Oz are all that different.

I have spent two or so years living in areas with high Aboriginal populations, and I have good friends in those places - both black and white. I have seen shocking violence and abuse, but as winstun suggests this happens in all society (btw winstun do you actually have any real knowledge of what you're talking about, or just what the SMH dishes out while you sip your latte?) and I have also had great times learning about the history and land.

I believe the problem isn't so much alcohol, as not having to work to get it. They can drink any time of the day or night, and not have to have the discipline to be sober to go to work. This lack of discipline impacts on all parts of life. Would you or I be any better? What would happen if only the genuine needy were given welfare?

Basically, I don't know the big solution. However, I do my part by living this motto: treat everyone according to their actions. There are always going to be good and bad people - no matter what culture they are from.

Huron Topp

16th Dec 2002, 14:18

Clearly, booze is a huge problem, one that we here in North America share. Again, who was responsible? Alcohol was used by traders and government to take land etc. Even worse, it was used to keep people quiet. Drunks rarely fight the system. As mentioned, its hard to get people off the stuff, when the bigger society leans on it so much. Attitudes on this point don't make it any easier either. When non-aboriginal people are drinking, they're having a rollicking good ****-up. But, when aboriginal people do the same, they're all a bunch of lazy, no-good drunks.

Having spent so much of my life in the military, booze was a constant. If you didn't drink, you were considered abnormal. When I left the Air Force, I left the booze behind. The basic reason was the huge amounts of abuse in our aboriginal communities. After all, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Welfare as well has been a huge setback, not just for aboriginal people. Before welfare existed (here it was not an institution until the early 1950's) if you wanted to survive, you worked. All the old folks remember that and try to teach the young, but its a hard row to hoe. If someone gives you something for nothing, most people will take it, white or aboriginal. In this life, however, nothing is worth having unless you've worked for it. People born after the creation of welfare have learned to expect it, and breaking that cycle is incredibly hard. Especially when opportunities to break the cycle are almost non-existent.

Grrowler: point taken however Prussia does still exists. It is a state in eastern Germany and is actually where most of the German nobility has come from. I believe some also falls in western Poland. Either way, the Prussian "culture" is very much alive and well.

Are apologies necessary from the bigger society and system? Personally, I see them as being rather silly. Nobody at this point in time can apologize for what happened in the past, unless they were directly involved. And obviously, they'd have to be sincere. The first step though, is that people need to admit that the atrocities happened and then work for the solution. And it ain't money.

Screw Jac

22nd Dec 2002, 05:19

i reckon life on an Aboriginal settlement would be horrendous. Then again I'm not looking for a flying job..so it's all relative.

The grog is the problem in a sense, but it is the insidious lack of pride that is the root of the problem. The men dont need to provide. Take away our often emotional attachment to provide for our family, isolate us and throw in grog and you have a time bomb....those well meaing souls look at the $ being paid in and its gotta be doing good.....Its doing very little

But then again neither is there that desire to change and break out. Ive seen five years of isolated resistence, largely from the tribal women in various communities, but the apathy is from within as well external.

The best advice I can give treat everybody with respect, always brief your passengers, no matter how smelly, and they are!

The respect shown will not always be returned, but you dont have to make it any worse! Who knows you may just be taken as a nice whitefella!

:) :)

Capt Vegemite

23rd Dec 2002, 00:46

Life on an aboriginal settlement?
Try ingnorance , superstition and mindless violence.

Throw in the "sweetwater" of endless truckloads of money for grog, light the bong , and step well back.

Huron all due respect have you actually EXPERIENCED a visit to one of OUR aboriginal communties?

I've seen black American servicemen and women in Darwin standing totally slack jawed in horror at the sights and sounds of the so called "long-grassers" animal behaviour in our city streets.
These creatures got here on a charter aircraft another complete and utterly fraudulent waste of public funds.

Better shut up now before I get a brick through my windscreen.

Darwin is a town full of top Australians. It is in the Northern Territory which is also a pretty tops place because it has a massive rock in the middle of it. The average temperature in Darwin is 65°C, with humidity usually around 190%. This creates an ideal climate for beer consumption. The Guinness Book of Records makes a special mention of Darwin because it is a place where beer consumption approaches super-human levels. The people of Darwin drink a massive 194.6 litres of beer per person annually, and that includes women and children. That is a ****load. In fact it is illegal in Darwin to drink less than a six-pack a day. Darwinnians drink so much that they created their very own 2 litre beer bottle, called the Darwin Stubby. It is the biggest beer bottle in the universe. Skulling a Darwin Stubby is a necessary requirement for a Darwin High School Certificate.

Darwin is a top Aussie.

the wizard of auz

23rd Dec 2002, 11:14

Capt vegimite, I dunno about that 194.6 ltrs per person comes from, Mate I managed to knock a bit more than that down (with out HA's help i might add) in the two weeks I was stuck there waiting for some over seas paper work. maybe yo uhad the figures mixed up for weekly consumption (managed to pick up 6kgs as well)
I agree with you 100% on the other bit of ya post, but was a bit reluctant to say so coz every one thinks I'm a racist for making observations already. Having done a bit of traveling and seeing a few things, and living amongst our non reflective bretheren for a while, I still get bagged by do gooders that dont have a frikken clue about the real world.

quixote

23rd Dec 2002, 17:57

Huron,
On the same line, using your logic, the Western ie. Australian, American, European cultures will disappear shortly as well, to be replaced by the Asian. Maybe so, it's not written in the sky that we Caucasians will run the show indefinitely. We're currently on course to fade out because of greed viz low reproduction rates and consuming self interest.

My grandson is indigenous Iriquois in North Carolina; his indigenous ancestors adopted western culture and prospered. Likewise some of my Irish and Cornish celtic ancestors adopted my English ancestors culture and prospered, others didn't and paid the penalty. I believe our Australian aborigines only way forward is via education and assimilation; if they don't collectively pursue education they will continue their downward slide and dwindle away.
Don

OpsNormal

23rd Dec 2002, 19:16

I've stood back and said nothing just to see what subjects might be breached after my earlier post on this thread, and what I've read has been amusing, if nothing.

Huron, thank-you for your insight into how your world works, it sounds like it has many parallels with some aspects of my country's society. Unfortunately in some ways it is comparing apples to oranges in as much as our societies having differring attitudes and outlooks at life in general. I invite you (if I read some of your other posts correctly, and you are heading "down-under" at some point in the future), to accompany me one day when I am working and I'll show you first hand what the situation is in a few different communities that surround my part of the world. You can talk to the people yourself, I'll say nothing if you'd like. :)

Winstun, that sounds to me like you've got Aussie and American people mixed-up somewhat. As I mentioned before, white Australians have a very high 'believe their own bullsdh*t' factor. They love to dish out their gospel worldwide about how 'society' should try to emulate theirs - that they consider so proudly. Fact is, when an outsider starts pointing out deficiencies in their own, they get real defensive and have some great excuse or pretend it doesn't exist.

Um, AMERICA'S WAR ON TERROR. Hello, come-in spinner! The American government is loosing friends faster than a six-year-old with dog poo smeared through it's hair, as it attempts to usurp the UN of any real credibility by becoming judge, jury and executioner of the world. Sadly, they drag Tony Blair etc with them.

For example, some facts of Australian white society: a very high level of domestic abuse (much of it unreported); a per capita crime rate double the USA in all areas except murder (serious physical assault, rape, theft, etc); child obesity and youth suicide -Australia is right up there at the top of the list; greenhouse polluters, the biggest per capita western polluters in the world.

I challenge you to quantify and give refferrence to just where you dug-up these so called "facts" you've served-up here. If you can't do that, then one just might be given to thinking you might be full of the same factor you seem to want to lable MY country's inhabitants with. So prove me wrong. :p

Capt Vegemite

24th Dec 2002, 05:27

Ya well wizofauz some these 5 and 6 year old kids are probably drinkin more than the little buggahs are lettin on.
Yer should see the rush on the grog shops just now... the walllopers got the pisstankalyser out in force vege stayin on his balcony.

Dont be afraid of tellin it how it is mate, it could all be fixed in no time if there was some transparency in politics.
The mongrel bastards (black and white)are paralysed with fear that whatever they do may cost them a vote or a quid.
Merry Christmas.

Winstun

24th Dec 2002, 22:41

Ops,

I stated the facts, you prove me wrong. I haven't the time to pull it off the net now but will if you come up with any contrary Oz bullsh*t of your own.

Nope, no mix-up. Its very hard to SEE ones own bull, no?

Americans..........yawnn, standard Aussie response. love to criticize them, fraid their too much like them? yes, they believe their own bullsh*t (wow, you see that) too. Tell me, who would you rather running the world show before you start squealing like a pig for help?

OpsNormal

25th Dec 2002, 08:38

Winstun, I care not for your own personal sentements, for they are nothing more. I merely challenged you to prove the "facts" (as you call them), and yet you seem unable or unwilling to do so.

It might appear that you have no real and credible information to add, so why bother, other than to blow your own trumpet. Have you lived out here in the sticks? A seemingly know-all attitude such as yours does your argument no justice as it would appear from the outset that you really have no idea of what you are speaking of.

Merry Christmas.

Winstun

25th Dec 2002, 13:26

Ops,

I haven't the time to be running around the net pulling all the references for you. I thought the facts I stated were pretty much common knowledge or are we pretending they don't exist?

Some quick scanning and some links below may help you, perhaps you could provide some imput research yourself.

I have spent several years in the sticks. I wouldn't call mine a know-all attitude. More like a contrary and objective attitude than that of yourself and ya mates.

Chirstmas is for Christians and sheep. Of which I am neither.

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_07_021000/hegarty/hegarty.html#box4

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/0/31DF595E4ACB035ECA2569BB00164F7D?Open

http://www.interpol.com/Public/Statistics/ICS/Default.asp

http://www.foodwatch.com.au/overweightkids1.html#1

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/ABS%40.nsf/94713ad445ff1425ca25682000192af2/be00331a0c387533ca2569de0024ed5b!

http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/mpaine/greenhous.html

OpsNormal

25th Dec 2002, 20:55

Winstun, I under-estimated you, thank you for the surprise.

Some closer examination of your domestic violence figures (especially those for the years 2000-1), are not yet complete for both countries (both the US, and Australia), so one might have difficulty using those stats to be able to come to a conclusive outcome.

Yes I will admit to surprise the incidences in both countries being so high, but as said previously, all the figures are not yet in on that one.

Our kids are fat, I cannot argue with that one. Our quality of life here is a damn sight higher than it is in MOST other countries, huge open areas of great natural beauty, wide open and clean sandy beaches, we have little in the way of diseases, and our variety and (for the most part) multiculturalism growth is something to be proud of. I guess your red-herring thrown in here might be an easy one to score points from as it is not really a concern of the original thread.

If viewed in a per-capita stance, yes, then your figures of our greenhouse emmissions are shamefull. However, I would have thought that that sort of thing should be measured on a total emission rate fullstop.

From your research.... Australia's level of emissions per person is 35% higher than that of the world's largest total polluter, the USA.

19 million people versus 260million. Wow, our measly 524.4 million tonnes versus the US's 5,486 million tonnes is somewhat of a clincher is it not? Or would you rather look at it in terms of a percentage? Roughly nine I'd say. You can make statistics say whatever you'd like, and as I've learned in my time here, statistics are much like a lamp-pole - they should be used for illumination, not support.

The [EPA] document said that "."greenhouse gases are accumulating in the Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing global mean surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise." Total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions will increase 43 percent between 2000 and 2020, the report said.

Your report, my bolding. Yeah I know, lets discard this one to as it doesn't quite fit with your attack on my society.

I asked you whether you lived in the sticks HERE, not anywhere else. Have/did you, where? I merely ask to find-out if you'd actually seen what you are criticising, or are attempting to.

I wouldn't call mine a know-all attitude. More like a contrary and objective attitude than that of yourself and ya mates.

I have no problem with a contrary point of view or indeed attitude, for this is the basis of some of the better dicussions that can be had on a BB such as this. If everyone thought the same way, there would be nothing to discuss would there?

Here really isn't the place to discuss some of these questions, after all the original question was about life in an aboriginal community. If you'd like to discuss further we can via email or PM.

I meant no offence by wishing you a merry xmas.

Winstun

25th Dec 2002, 22:04

Ops,

I have attitude. Statistics open to interpretation. Agreed.

Our quality of life here is a damn sight higher than it is in MOST other countries, huge open areas of great natural beauty, wide open and clean sandy beaches, we have little in the way of diseases, and our variety and (for the most part) multiculturalism growth is something to be proud of.

Yes, the above is quite true, but I don't see what there is to be proud of. You lucked out being born in a nice location with plenty natural resources and not too populated. Immigration has been a necessity for growth and that damn higher quality of life you're enjoying. No great achievement on your part. Under the thin surface, the majority of my fellow anglo Aussies accept multiculturalism with their arm twisted, and then, only certain colours and eye shapes. These are my objective observations.

Your report, my bolding. Yeah I know, lets discard this one to as it doesn't quite fit with your attack on my society.

Well, it fits into the facts. If you want to turn your head away, go ahead. Just pointing it it out. Don't get defensive now.

Yes, I have lived in several 'sticks' areas in WA, NT, and QLD as well as on 5 other continents. My facts of Australia reflect a population which is mostly urban and has probably never spoken to an aborigine - possibly once to a token black at a society do - let alone seen one, except maybe on TV.

In my society (and you're in it), over 30,000 children die of malnutrition and disease today. Let's not be too proud yet.

OpsNormal

25th Dec 2002, 23:02

My facts of Australia reflect a population which is mostly urban and has probably never spoken to an aborigine

We are indeed in heated agreement on this point.

At this point I'll put forward a direct cut and paste of something I wrote on another website about aboriginees and the other underlying issues that dog our "society".

Hopefully this might make my position clearer.... :)

Sorry Rob, I've been away. Thanks for your reply.
You wrote;

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Sure, they believed they were bringing advantages such as "civilization", education law and medicine. They also enslaved aboriginals.
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You'll draw no argument from me there, either. History speaks, we should all take notes.... Much the same way that missionaries brought religion and their version of "civilisation" to those communities out here in the sticks (and indeed dotted all around the country), they also brought with them ideals and a theology that was in stark contrast to the original way of life of the aboriginee.

They also brought with them alcohol. Harmless stuff indeed. Is it? Remember back to what might be termed the "bad old days" when the total prohibition of alchol to aboriginals was supposedly for their own good? Was it? Some might argue it was and some might argue it wasn't. Then along came the Human rights issue of equality, so what happened then? The aboriginal population had direct access to something that their genetic (and I use that term to emphasise that they had no exposure to it before hand, so perhaps no bodily tolerance of the substance), make-up had/has little defence against such a behavioural modifier such as grog.

How did they get this grog? Simple. The basic values of human rights are quite simple. Any one person must have the basic opportunities in life that any other person possesses, regardless of birth, race or creed. No arguments from me here, as I may not agree with what everyone might say, but I'll defend to the death anyone elses right to have as many opportunities as can be made available to them, and their right to say what they think.

Anyway, I've gotten a bit off the trail here, I shall return. Our society in general voted by public concern to make the sale of alcohol to the aboriginals a basic right, which by human rights standards, is good. Where does around (at a guess, mind you) 70% of Australia's population live? It certainly isn't in or near the aboriginal settlements and communities that dot our arid and tropical zones of our great country. It is away from these areas, and one might argue that with this fact there becomes a situation where those in the towns and cities have little or no exposure to the issues that alcohol has created, and even though most of the poulation lives together, it is more or less insulated from the beast they have created. So while the basic concept of equal opportunity is a good one, in some situations it may not neccessarily be the best thing for all.

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I ask, what makes a society civilized? Is it language, art and writing, money or monumental architecture? Just because indiginous Australia had their own religion, languages, art and writing but dipped out on monumental architecture but didn't have the will to displace people, enslave them and farm doesn't mean they weren't civilized. Nomadic cultures have no need for monumental architecture and subsequently never had it. As for money what currency would nomadic tribes need. Probably roo meat and skins.
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Simple, degrees of civilisation. Some value more than others, but none is any less of a race for owning less or trying to live in a place that might be less than ideal to others. Currency, that's a question of local requirements in as much as what people basically need to survive and to hopefully prosper.

What gets up my nose here, is when some people decide to just modify their history slightly to suit themselves or their need. The biggest example of that lays some 50nm west of where I sit and write these words. A nomadic culture relies on the availability of water for survival and travels as such to these places to hunt, gather, and to spiritually connect with the land. I will make a point here and say that the closest semi-permanent water was in the Musgrave Ranges some 150-170 km distant. Did the aboriginees carry water with them while wandering around? No. Yes, the aboriginees did visit this area from time to time, however infrequent. Nowadays the Luritja people (what the call themselves, which in all honesty means "stranger" in the local aboriginal dialect - and I'd invite you to further research that if you'd like further clarification), are re-inventing themselves as the Anangu. Native Title is certainly a fair thing for the aboriginals, as yes, I agree they have a strong claim for what are to them areas of great significance, however they need not try and assert things that did never happen, such as in the case of De Rose v State of South Australia (FCA 1342), in the Federal Court of Australia, where a group of aboriginals have had a native title claim rejected because they have failed to maintain a connection with the land, even though free access was always available to them. I'd invite you to read the determination (some 259 pages of it), as it goes into much detail over "inventing" and "changing" history to suit themselves.

Am I making any sense? I hope you guys can see where I'm coming from, it really isn't that hard.

PC is a basic human right.

PC sounds harmless enough, and in it's basic intent, is.

PC can get away from you. It already has.

PC, in it's purest form, invades nobody's right to live and work as they please.

But it already has. David nailed it...

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By your reasoning though, Rob, the Islamic kids have the right to stop those Christians who want to from singing Christmas carols lest they be offended by Christian values.
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Checkmate!
Who is at fault? Our society.

Why? Because you really didn't read the fine print before embracing it, did you guys?

Click here for the whole thread on "TAF". (http://www.theaviationforum.com/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/002320-3.html) It originated on a completely different subject, but "went" that way.

I still think you may being a little hard on Aussies as a whole. Most of us realise that our poo is indeed somewhat odiferous! ;)

Regards,
OpsN.

drshmoo

31st Dec 2002, 08:49

great for your career, great to get out and experience life outside the nest. All these great stories about the locals are true. Sensational flying and well respected at the right end.

No requirement for stupid ignorant yanks on the otherside of the pacific put their "nickels" worth in. The kid wanted actual experience not stats from the net
Winstun...............march on the clowns!

Northern Chique

31st Dec 2002, 17:17

From where I read in my insulated little flat back in a major community.... I believe the question was "what was living in a community like?" now it has degenerated in a transpacific argument over why one culture, nation or community is better than another....

I did live in the Kimberly, did everything as I should have, was polite, unbiased and stayed out of the politics.. but one of the worst possible hours of my life happened there... much of which thankfully my mind has chosen to erase. After 2 years I still am very secluded in my social patterns and very rarely make an appearance alone.

Its a difficult thing to put such an event on such a public posting but be warned.... the interests of the society developing, is not as itracommunity as it used to be. These community "representives" dont care who they show violent tendencies toward. (as I patch up yet another victim of a "drive by stabbing")

But for them here are the same resposibilities to be considered for any person in our world.. as it was for my would be rapist... it is a matter of choice....He chose to break in and attack me.. I chose to keep living despite what hed done. He said in court he was drunk, it was a one off..
the fact I was the first of five deliberate stalkings over a number of days, (when he was arrested at the fifth scene he was sober!), held very little water in his argument... but he pleaded he didnt know right from wrong ... he was aboriginal and he hid behind an artificial excuse. Instead of being proud of his culture, he blamed it for everything he had done then hid behind it once again for sentencing, pleading he would be "trapped" in jail and would hang himself... (he got 18 months suspended sentance total)...

He is very much an individual and he made a choice.... it didnt matter what colour he was... (incidentally a full blood from kalumburu) he chose to cross the line between moral and immoral. I never have held his whole culture to blame... I hold him responsible as an individual.... His culture would never have tolerated his behaviour and normally would have condemed him for it...
Many of our so called "do-gooders" dont see the manipulation of the truth and the cunning behind some of these communities.

What he did was outside his own culture... yet he claimed his culture was to blame.

Money is not the issue... when you find kids from a community near here on world vision sponsorship lisitings and have a look at the financial income for the individual families you really have to wonder.... sure the kids are starving but the families concerned recieve over 30,000 each in mining royalties per quarter alone plus welfare, in most cases no rent is paid, minimal electrical costs, and the kids still are malnourished, beaten and raped.

In my new proffession I see more neglect, abuse and attempted murder in the name of culture than I ever saw when I was flying.. Ive seen children killed, degenerative chemical abuse from the age of 3 and 4 yrs, full term pregnacies age 9, and cases of sexually transmitted diseases in preteen years, and devistating multi fatality car accidents caused by drink driving. This behaviour happens on the communities at a very high rate... more so than outside... Our court system cannot deal with the problem effectely in its current state.

The choices are being made everyday..the choice to drink.... spend the families money on grog... violence and degradation of family units. Its a universal problem... .

Just because it presents as a problem of one particular focus race unit doesnt seperate that community from its resonsibity to its members or the visitors responsiblity to the hosting community. Nor has it been stated any where that this is a single race problem. Its world wide problem of epidemic proportions.

Whats it like??..... A mad dance between sanity, diplomacy and realism.... you live a tale that no one will believe... A life you would never trade for another and a real appreciation for the gifts of life, choice and the will to make what ever you want happen for you.