JAA CPL Vs JAA ATPL!

[taildragger2]

I don't know if any of you can help on this subject as it seems to be a little vague but here goes:

I have a mate who is just starting out on a JAA modular course and was wondering what the score with JAA CPL groundschool. At present I'm sitting the ATPL groundschool so it doesn't affect me but what I was wondering is how much different to the ATPL sylabus is it and what happens after a few hundred hours of instruction when it comes to the I/R, do you then have to sit the ATPL Groundschool? According to my air law book you are still entitled to act as P2 ( F/O ) on multi crew A/C, is this true as I have heard conflicting evidence? I tried to tell him all I know but my knowledge is limited as to JAA CPL due to this having no bearing on my exams. Any information to set the record straight once and for all would be most appreciated!
...................Tailwinds........TD2.

[READY MESSAGE]

As far as I understand, the JAA CPL hasn't been established yet. As an interim policy they are using the old UK CAA syllabus and question bank to issue a JAA CPL. The licence will be severely restricted though - only valid in UK airspace and you will not be able to automatically upgrade to a JAA ATPL. If you want an ATPL you will have to do the whole groundschool thing again!

I will, of course, stand corrected if anyone can offer you any further info

[TooHotToFly]

I think that 4-forces and PPSC are now doing courses for the JAR CPL. The course while involving less than the ATPL currently costs a bit more. You can still sit the old CAA CPL exams but if you're starting fresh you might as well sit the JAR ones.

[Noggin]

The JAR-FCL CPL Groundschool Course consists of 200 hours of instruction at an approved FTO compared to 750 hours for the ATPL Course. A further 200 hours of instruction is required for the IR. To upgrade to the ATPL you will have to make up the difference and retake the examinations at ATPL level. See JAR-FCL 1.160 and 1.165.

Ready Message is incorrect, the JAR-FCL CPL(VFR) is only restricted to UK registered aircraft, much the same as a UK national CPL. It is not restricted to UK Airspace. If you meet the hours criteria for conversion to a JAR-FCL ATPL whilst holding such a licence, i.e.passed the UK ATPL exams, you do not have to resit any examinations.

Important thing to note if you take the JAR-FCL ATPL exams, you only have 36 months to complete both the CPL and obtain an IR.

Even the PPL has a privilege allowing the holder to act as P2 on a MPA. However, in order to exercise this Licence privilege the holder must have passed the ATPL theoretical examinations, completed a MCC Course, hold a M/E IR and obtained a Type Rating on the aircraft to be flown which means they must have also taken the ATPL Skill Test. Idon't think there will be many takers!

[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 03 February 2001).]

[UKPPL]

Noggin,

You write 'the JAR-FCL CPL(VFR) is only restricted to UK registered aircraft, much the same as a UK national CPL. It is not restricted to UK Airspace' - are you sure you are correct with this statement??

The UK CAA CPL (A) which had it's exam deadlines extended until July of this year as a CAA CPL(A)R, was restricted to UK registered aircraft, but the JAR CPL(A) VFR is a non-restricted JAR licence and therefore surely is valid for all JAR member states and their aircraft, just as a JAR ATPL is (?)

I'm willing to be corrected, but aren't you confusing a genuine JAR CPL with the soon to be discontinued CAA CPL(A) R

[Noggin]

Try reading the AIC that anounced it. There is no legal way that a licence could be restricted to UK airspace. The privileges of a CPL(A)(VFR) Restricted may be exercised on UK registered aircraft anywhere in the World, and on those of any other JAA State that agrees to accept it.

[rolling circle]

UKPPL -Noggin is correct. The following is an extract from the FCL website under the heading "Arrangements to Issue a JAR-FCL CPL(A) Restricted to Use in UK Registered Aeroplanes":

Arrangements

As a solution to fill the ‘training vacuum’ and as a means of dealing with the question of how to convert the UK BCPL(A) to a JAR-FCL licence, a JAR-FCL CPL(A) (Restricted) will be issued. The licence will be endorsed with the following statement:

“Valid for flight in United Kingdom registered aircraft. As this
licence does not fully comply with the requirements of JAR-FCL,
the holder is not entitled to the automatic recognition accorded to
a JAR-FCL licence. Permission must be sought from other JAA
member states prior to exercising privileges in aircraft registered
in those member states.”

The effect of this endorsement on the licence is to restrict its use, initially, to aeroplanes registered in the UK only. The JAR-FCL CPL(A) (Restricted) will be issued only where the applicant fulfils the provisions of the licensing requirements set out below.

[UKPPL]

Noggin / RC

I think you two guys are getting confused with two different type of licences issued by CAA... don't worry plenty of others are as well!

1. The JAR CPL (A) R, as issued by the CAA as a restricted JAR licence, restricted to UK registered aircraft and gained by passing the CAA CPL exams (and passing skills test etc). The CAA exams finish in June 2001 and therefore although it is possible to still take / pass the CAA CPL exams, for anyone starting a course now, the timescales are a little too short, as the CAA has stated that if you havent passed ALL the CAA CPL exams by June 2001, no further resits will be allowed.

2. The (new) JAR CPL(A)as issued by the CAA and gained by passing the JAR (NOT CAA) CPL exams (and passing skills test etc). Until very recently there were no courses offering training for the CPL exams (only ATPL) so that's why the CAA introduced the JAR CPL(A) R, as in point one above.
A JAR CPL(A) is not a restricted licence. I guess, due to the lack of JAR CPL groundschool training up till now in UK, it's possible that no-one in UK has been issued with a JAR CPL(A)...?

I start next week at 4 forces on what I understand is the first JAR CPL(A) theory distance learning course to have taken place...(?)

Best regards.

[rolling circle]

UKPPL - It is you who is getting confused, perhaps if you read a thread more carefully before posting it would help. Ready Message wrote:

As far as I understand, the JAA CPL hasn't been established yet. As an interim policy they are using the old UK CAA syllabus and question bank to issue a JAA CPL. The licence will be severely restricted though - only valid in UK airspace and you will not be able to automatically upgrade to a JAA ATPL.

This clearly refers to the JAR CPL(A) Restricted but misrepresents the degree of restriction. It was to clarify this point that Noggin made his (correct) post pointing out that the restriction does not relate to airspace, merely to registration.

I think the source of your confusion lies in the fact that Noggin unfortunately referred, incorrectly, to this licence as the JAR-FCL CPL (VFR) but then you referred to it as the CAA CPL(A) R which is equally incorrect and served only to deepen the confusion.

The correct terminology for the licence under discussion, according to the CAA, is the JAR-FCL CPL(A) Restricted to Use in UK Registered Aeroplanes. As you correctly deduce, nobody in the UK (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) has yet been issued with a 'proper' JAR-FCL CPL(A) since the first ground examinations for that licence have yet to be set.

I understand that some people find this whole licensing situation confusing but, with a little care and attention to detail, I'm sure you'll get it right in the end.

[UKPPL]

RC,

Sorry to bang on about this issue mate, but my point was that their are two potential JAR CPL licences right now in UK.

You wrote;

'The correct terminology for the licence under discussion, according to the CAA, is the JAR-FCL CPL(A) Restricted to Use in UK Registered Aeroplanes. As you correctly deduce, nobody in the UK (or anywhere else in the world for that matter) has yet been issued with a 'proper' JAR-FCL CPL(A) since the first ground examinations for that licence have yet to be set'

I'm afraid you are very wrong with this statement;

1. There are not one but two licences under discussion. Taildragger2's original question asked about the JAR CPL licence. The subject of the CAA's interim JAR CPL(A) Restricted licence was brought into the thread (although taildragger2 didn't ask about it) so I thought it wise to try and clarify any confusion.

2. JAR CPL exams have been sat in UK. Have a look at the CAA website. 4 forces ran a JAR CPL full time course last year.

I'll try better with my attention to detail in future, oh wise one...

[taildragger2]

Thanks for all the replys guys.
Just to take this thread back to the top and throw in some more food for thought. I understand the confusion about the interim JAR FCL CPL(A) taking the format of the "old" UK CAA CPL groundschool questions as a stopgap until JAR CPL questions were implemented. Now that the JAR CPL(A) has been set up and some schools are starting to run these courses is there any reason why my friend can't sit the CPL G/S, followed by the GFT and FI(R) to begin instructing then later on sit the I/R including IFR groundschool that isn't incorporated in the CPL VFR G/S? Having completed all this he will have a CPL/IR surely and is then in a position to start applying for Airline work. Is this correct? I am under the impression that this is all well and good but should he wish to take up a command role on a multi crew A/C he will then have to sit the ATPL's. He has previously completed an ATPL course and only managed to pick up 4 exams in all three sittings, hence his desire to switch to CPL for a lighter workload, will the exams he sat for ATPL be taken into account when it comes to sitting CPL G/S exams or is it a case of starting all over?

Once again cheers for all the responses.................Tailwinds.......TD2

[TooHotToFly]

If your friend has ambitions to fly for an airline then I would strongly recommend he sits the ATPL's now. I don't think he'd get a job without having the ATPL theory credit as airlines want to be able to get you into the left hand seat when it suits the airline, not when you get round to sitting your ATPL's. The extra workload involved in doing the ATPL's as oppossed to the CPL's is surely not worth sitting them both for. I would suggest he bites the bullet and just does the ATPL's.

[UKPPL]

I agree with TooHotToFly's comments.

Notwithstanding the issue of what airlines would ideally like in the way of qualifications from a potential candidate. Currently, if you take the theory exam route of CPL, then add IR and then add ATPL, my understanding is that there is a lot of duplication in exams/groundschool between the different phases.