XS937/M Crash

[Mr_Grubby]

I am researching the demise of the E.E. Lightening F6 XS937/M off Spurn Head 30th July 1976. 11 Sqn. Binbrook. Pilot was F/O Simon Manning. I watched the incident on radar at Northern Radar Lindholme. I would like to hear more details about the rescue from an ASR helicopter from Leconfield ?

Thanks,
Mr G.

[Mr_Grubby]

bral.

Thanks.

It seems that 30th July 1976 was a Friday.
Also the speed in which the helicopter reached the downed pilot might indicate that Leconfield knew what was about to happen.
Do you know why XS937 was at Leconfield ?

Mr G.

[spekesoftly]

This reminds me of a similar incident I witnessed at ATC RAF Manby circa 1971. Whilst the Varsities and Dominies from Strubby were night flying we were also monitoring 243 on the ARC 52 packset. (Think it was SOP at night). We heard the pilot of a Lightning that had just departed from nearby Binbrook Tx "Mayday Ejecting". On the Plessey AR1, we could see the seat separating from the A/C - two distinct primary returns, just off Spurn Head. A quick call to D&D helped fix the last known position. As best I recall, the pilot was rapidly rescued by a SAR helo, and was seen in the bar later that evening, enjoying a few beers!!

[Mr_Grubby]

spekesoftlly

What you say is uncanny!
We knew the aircraft was going to ditch.
We expanded the radar range to about 15 miles I think on the Type 84 remoted in from Staxton Wold. As the pilot ejected we saw the primary blip split in two. One disappeared (the aircraft) then the second blip split again as the ejector seat separated from the pilot ?. We marked on the radar screen a big cross with a chinagraph pencil where the pilot disappeared and vectored the helicopter to underneath the cross. It found him right away. He was hardly wet!

Mr G.

[bunny1]

Mr. Grubby

I was working at Leconfield in 1976 and Lightnings were operating from there. I was told it was because of re - surfacing of the runway at Binbrook.

[BIG DICK]

I know this is not the Lightning in question but I remember seeing a photograph of a Lightning that was in it's last few seconds of flight before crashing. The photo was supposed to be of someone one a tractor and in the background there was a Lightning heading towards the ground with the pilot having just ejected, obviously when the photo was being taken the person in question didn't realise that a Lightning was just about to crash! It made a sad yet very interesting picture.

Does anyone else know about this crash? I would love to be able to get a copy this photo, so if anyone can point me in the right direction to get one that would be appreciated. Thanks.

[spekesoftly]

BD,

Re. the 'tractor photo crash'. The aircraft (P1B - XG332) was being flown by George Aird, a civilian test pilot, who was forced to eject following an engine bay fire. Hatfield - 13/9/62.

Try this link for the photo:-

www.aeropages.co.za/ThisnThat3.html

[BIG DICK]

spekesoftly

thanks for the link to the photo. much appreciated.

Regards

[D120A]

I am rather familiar with this one as I was the squadron’s engineering officer at the time. The squadron was deployed to Leconfield because Binbrook’s runway was being re-surfaced.

XS937 flew satisfactorily on its first sortie that morning (nothing like a successful sortie for establishing the airworthiness of an aircraft…), had a pilot-staying-in turn-round and flew again. On selecting undercarriage down, Simon Manning got two greens and a red, and after trying the usual rolling and pulling tricks to no avail, flew a number of times past Leconfield’s tower for a close look. The undercarriage leg was swinging half way between up and down, seemingly unconnected to its jack. We couldn’t see why it had become disconnected, but it was probably either a failure of the jack eye end (remember the Lightning’s main jack pulled the gear down and pushed it up), or, more likely, a failure of the jack attachment lugs at the top of the main leg casting.

It is unlikely any manoeuvre would succeed in locking a leg down in this condition – the aerodynamic loads on the wheel as it comes down forwards from the swept wing are in the wrong direction. And you cannot do a hammerhead stall and a tail-slide in a Lightning!

The helicopter was scrambled in good time for the premeditated ejection and Simon was quickly back at the squadron. Someone said in disgust “Simon, how could you eject into the sea and barely get your hair wet!” But it isn’t very pleasant seeing one of your friends heading out to sea to abandon an otherwise serviceable aeroplane, and wondering if the canopy/seat/parachute and all the rest is going to work. Thank you 202 Sqn.

In spite of an intense effort by the Navy, we never found any wreckage and that area of sea off Withernsea silts up rapidly. A few weeks later the RAF lost a Phantom in more worrying circumstances and the Navy effort was diverted to that.

Three years later in 1979, a Lightning F3 was abandoned near Valley (on a Missile Practice Camp) for an identical reason. I have seen the pictures taken of this aircraft from the gun camera of a chase aircraft and the trail angle of the broken undercarriage looks exactly the same. I believe the cause of that was found to be a fatigue failure of the lugs.

Later, when I was back at Binbrook again (1981-83), we had a modification issued for the main undercarriage that involved milling off the area near the main leg lugs to remove fatigue damage, and that mod may have been the fix for the cause of the 1979 accident. This caused a bit of consternation amongst the aircrew, who were curious how shaving metal off could possibly make it stronger! The answer can be seen if you take a strip of paper and cut a small notch in the side. Pull on the strip and the paper will tear with quite a small pull. But cut off a bit of the length of the whole strip, including the notched bit, and a good percentage of the total strength of the original strip will be restored. That’s why older aircraft with such mods in their airframes have “g” restrictions towards the end of their working life. 5g may not be 6g but it’s better than nothing.

Last, XS 937 had an incident the afternoon before it was lost when it had a double tyre burst and trundled off the side of the runway at low speed. The ground was like concrete (remember the hot summer of 1976?). Much was made of that at the time by Rumour Control but the view was that this had had no effect on the serviceability of the undercarriage. This was subsequently confirmed to me informally by the chief stressman at Warton, with whom I worked on a Tornado issue. Someone mentioned retraction tests in a previous post, but all they showed you was that the sequencing was correct of jacks, links, doors etc. You cannot in the hangar reproduce the air-loads on the wheels, nor the dynamic loads of, for example, selecting the gear down while rolling the aircraft. XS 937’s earlier satisfactory sortie on 30 July proved that it was serviceable and that the subsequent failure was something new. The 1979 loss proved what that was.

Hope that helps!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Ver informative post, D102A, thanks very much.

I remember another Lightning being lost on the East coast - was it at Scarborough? during a display? I think it went into the sea.

Anyone know anything about this?

SSD

[Mr_Grubby]

Lightning F3 XP753 from the Lightning Training Flight crashed Aug. 26 1983 off Scarborough during unauthorised aerobatics. The pilot Flt. Lt. M Thompson was killed.

Mr G.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks, Mr G. Any more details available on that? Why was doing unauthorised aeros? What went wrong?

SSD

[Mr_Grubby]

D120A.
Thanks for an interesting post.

SSD.
Don't know much more. I think the aircraft was en route from Binbrook to Tees Side.

Mr G.

[D120A]

I am afraid it’s me again, this time concerning XP 753, Mike Thompson’s accident. I do seem to have been in the wrong places at the right times, or whatever, don’t I? In August 1983 I was coming to the end of my second tour at Binbrook and my last in the RAF.

Over the years, during the annual positioning transit of the aeros display Lightning from Binbrook to Tees-side for their air show, it had become the practice to carry out an informal aerobatic display at Scarborough en route to support some kind of activity (RAF Recruiting?) on the sea-front. In 1983, however, the hard word had gone out about such activities and all such things had to be authorised by Group. Permission was duly sought (good cause, after all, and a precedent), but it was refused. Poor Mike, who was the Lightning display pilot that year, got very angry about the refusal and argued unsuccessfully for hours on the phone to have the decision reversed, to no avail.

He took off in an angry mood, and only the Lord knows what went through Mike’s mind en-route, but descend into Scarborough Bay Mike did, and at some stage of the routine he overcooked it with the result that we all know. Even if that had not happened, Mike was headed for a lot of trouble. R.I.P. Mike Thompson, who tried to please his public at whatever cost to himself.

The lesson from all this is: if you have a choice, never fly when you are angry. If you have to fly when you are angry, be aware that your performance will drop off dramatically and so be extremely careful. “Don’t Assume, Check” and “Keep It Simple” are the ways to survive in a single seat, and in today’s CRM environment telling your fellow crew to watch you like a hawk, and why, may be a very good idea.

If you have an instrument flying computer package at home, one that measures your performance, try it when you are steamed after a row with somebody. Or after a drink, when you are convinced that you are firing on all cylinders! The results will shock you. It is sad to see these lessons played out in real life and real death, but Mike wasn’t the first and he won’t be the last. Unhappily, in this as in so many other areas of aviation, there are those that have and those that will.

[Mr_Grubby]

D120A.
Fascinating stuff but at the same time a sad story.

As you seem to be the man in the know, do you recall an incident over the North Sea sometime between July ’76 and November ’77 involving a Lightning and an Aztec ?
It was late at night. The Aztec was inbound to Sturgate, North Lincs. IMC at about FL65. Felt a slight bump but put it down to turbulence. Upon landing a crease was found along the wing tip running parallel to the fuselage. Traces of paint were collected and were thought to be identical to paint off the ventral fin on the fuel tank of a Lightning. The military denied that any aircraft were in the area that night but we knew better. We were told to drop the case and all paperwork relating to the incident disappeared.

Any thoughts ?

Mr G.

[spekesoftly]

'Fraid I can't help with any specific details, but I do remember a lot of 'bar talk' at the time. I don't think there were too many volunteers to 'Embellish', thereafter!!! Remember the RAF Flight Safety poster about that era, warning about the dangers of jet wake - showed a sketch of a Lightning diving past a civil aircraft with the caption "You don't have to hit'em to hurt'em"? Always brought a wry smile .......

[ORAC]

I'm presuming this is the same incident, I may be wrong and am willing to be contradicted.

The ADGE had been advised that a test would be made with an aircraft attempting to reach the UK without detection. The aircraft in question was seen on radar and could not be positively identified by flight plan. A pair of Lightnings were in the vicinity doing intercepts and, rather than scramble the Q aircraft, the decision was made to use one of the aircraft already in the area to identify it.

One of the Lightnings was vectored towards the aircraft and the speed was called as 'slow". The pilot called "Judy" and did a stern intercept but with too high a closure rate and pulled away as he got a break-away cross on the radar. Upon landing a witness mark of paint was found on the ventral tank which matched that of the other aircraft.

Many contributory factors were identified including the Q currency of the pilot, the decision to use an aircraft on a training sortie not carrying the correct notes and not properly briefed, the poor speed assessment of the target (the controller also getting a reprimand) etc. There was an inquiry and, as far as I'm aware, the incident report was issued as normal.

[Mr_Grubby]

ORAC.

Thanks.
Is there any way I could obtain a copy of said incident report ?

Mr G.

[D120A]

ORAC's post is 100% correct - I was the SEngO again!

Far from being hushed up, the incident made the 9 o'clock news on BBC1. Another embarrassment, but it's only when you're spouting that you get harpooned, so to speak.

[Mr_Grubby]

D120A

I must have been watching ITV that night. I did not know the incident had gone public.

There was certainly a cover up at local level. I think the Senior Civil Air Traffic Control Officer (R.I.P.) and the Wg. Cdr. R.A.F. Officer Commanding were trying to protect operational personnel at JATCRU Lindholme. To their credit they always stood by us when an incident occured if we were in the right.
But if we were in the wrong, ?

Mr G.

[D120A]

You're right, it can get a bit lonely when you are in the wrong! Of all the (many!) occasions in which I was involved when something had gone pear-shaped, I think I was well supported about 50% of the time, and left to spin in the wind the other half. One Wg Cdr (GD, not my boss) who was particularly kind to me at a difficult time (I was a Fg Off Eng first tourist) I was able to thank, years later when we had both long retired, when I saw him at a Farnborough Air Show. He was quite pleased!

When I became a bit more senior myself I tried to remember the best of what had been done for me and act in the same way when my people suffered the same thing. I don't know if I succeeded, I'll have to leave it to the people concerned to judge that.

[BOAC]

AAH! 'Leaking ventral' - reminds me of how we used to check that the aircraft HAD been refuelled by checking for the fuel puddle under it!

Nice to see you here, D120A.

If we are not careful, we'll have to start a separate 'WWOL' forum...............

Now, who's going to talk about 'Weeeeeeeeee.. Phut'?:o

[smartman]

Shaggy Sheep Driver

On the day that XP753(?) crashed, I was having a day off from HQ1Gp at RAF Bawtry with wife and family at Scarborough. As the Lightning began what appeared to be the start of a typical aeros routine using the beach as his axis, I stopped the car out of curiosity. Asked to move on by a friendly plod, I told him who I was and that I thought this was an unusual event, and that we should both watch. This we did and moments later the aircraft re-appeared over the castle, very slow and low, with lots of bank and alpha, wings rocking, and clearly trying to hack his 'display' line. Moments later it departed, hitting the sea in a fairly wings level attitude, about 200 yards from the waters edge. The canopy came off just before impact - but too late. The plod and myself then helped to clear a spot on the beach to where the body was brought ashore by the local rescue dinghy, and airlifted out by RAF chopper. A sad day.

I had to attend the BoI where I learnt that the guy was putting on an a display for an Air Trg Corps display at the northern end of the beach.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks, smartman. I wonder why he persisted in pulling when the aeroplane was apparently already in distress and on the verge of departure? Did it flick out, or just mush in?

SSD

[smartman]

SSD

From a fairly distinct memory, it hadn't had time to fully depart before it went in; and I guess the guy had let the controls centralise when he pulled the handle. Hence the wings- levellish, flatish-attitude entry - but low IAS and high RoD ---------

[ORAC]

He'd descended into the bay and was using the beach as the crowd line. Approaching the end of the pass he'd let the speed decay too low to be able to climb out straight ahead, his only option was to attempt to pull and attempt to turn inside the bay away from the beach.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My memories of Scarborough are that the castle is on the headland to the north of the town. If he appeared over the castle in a high-alpha turn out towards the sea, was he displaying from north to south, in the bay north of the castle? Or was it a soth to north display in front of the main town?

SSD

[Mr_Grubby]

I have received the following from a colleague who is not yet registered with PPRuNe concerning the Scarborough incident:-

………..it would seem that F/L Thompson had completed his impromptu display and had flown at low level in a tight descending turn to starboard (1500 down to just above 250) to clear the headland at the southern end of the bay, and whilst heading out to sea, he attempted to roll the wings level. The a/c then pitched up, yawed, rolled to starboard and dived into the sea………….

Mr G.

[smartman]

The aircraft was using the north bay beach as his 'display' axis, with a 'crowd line' some 2-300 yards out to sea. The pilot used traditional wingover positioning turns at both ends of the axis. The ultimate such manoeuvre was a port climbing turn out to sea following a run from N to S along the 'display' axis, winging over into a starboard descending and decelerating turn to position for a further run from S to N along the 'display' axis. It was during the final stage of this latter turn that he ended up low, slow, with bags of alpha - into wing rocking and incipient departure. Whether this was as a result of simply trying to hack the 'display' line (unlikely with his experience), or a late attempt to avoid the southern headland during the latter part of his positioning turn (possible given the unrehearsed nature of the event) is conjecture. In that respect, I can't recall the detailed finding of the BoI. But I am certain of my own grandstand recall of events.