Military Female Flyers....

[solotk]

There is currently a debate going on, on the other means , re. Female Military flyers, and are there any pretty ones?

I'm trying to find piccies (Sexist Pig? Moi?) , or at least piccies that the brown job element won't rip to bits.

Does anyone have any piccies, piccie references, or as seems to be very much in demand, any photo references for Ex-Sgt Ali Jenkins , Chicken leg Pilot AAC...?

Damien , what have you got in your vast photo collection?

Any help , comments, piccie posts to the address below


http://www.arsse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1/YaBB.pl?board=fm_arm_aac;action=display;num=1036702640

Cheers fellas (and fella-esses) :D

[Pete O'Heater]

GET A LIFE!

[solotk]

Get a sense of Humour

..or get back to your tree-hugging

[Pete O'Heater]

You can get the photos you want on over 300,000 other websites, why do you want to clog up space on PPRuNe satisfying your sexist fantasies?

P.S. Got a sense of humour somewhat more highly developed then yours! :)

Didn't realise you were a PONGO, I retract my last 2 posts! :cool:

[solotk]

Pete O'......

I scanned the aforementioned 300,000 websites, and the actual number of female Military aviatrix , is incredibly small, and most of the piccies are posted on the other means.

We need more women Military Pilots, never mind just the good looking ones, who are few and far between. Well, that Turkish F-16 jockette is a babe, and I have seen A USAF Herc Pilot who was very nice.

So there must be more out there, believe me , i've looked and it's scarce.

As for fantasis, all I have to do is stick the future Mrs Solo in a grobag and have at her, but as she used to date a Tornado Jock, that might be a bit passe.... :D

.....and yep, it's just something amusing to pass the time for a bunch of bored Pongos between Op Fresco and Op Sandcastle II

[Sensible Garage]

http://www.dutchmil.com/audio/woman/woman.htm

[Training Risky]

Does anyone else out there think that the arguments against women serving in the infantry, cav, RAC, marines, RAF regt, apply equally to ALL frontline military positions?
Including any aircrew position that involves possible contact with the enemy? (downed pilot/nav/ALM, serving in a ground tour, etc)
I'm not saying that women lack the flying skills or officer/SNCO qualities, but deficiencies in upper-body strength, stamina and susceptability to gang rape by (heterosexual) enemy troops is enough argument for me to believe that the policy of exclusion which was legal in Britain until the late '80s, is STILL relevant today!

Strapping into my seat, who's first?.......

[kilo52]

I had the privilige to train the RAFs first Female Pilot on Her first Squadrons Aircraft

ALL I will say is this:

Julie,

I will fly with you any time and any where.

If you read this

Best Wishes

Keith

[Cartman, E]

Females can be easily as good or better in most military jobs (not regiment etc), but as TR points out, if they get in to enemy hands they will beg for a quick end.

This is not sexist or non-pc but is based on my belief that the torture that can be inflicted on them can run a lot deeper and be more effective than a beating that will leave male grasping for his life.

:confused:

[solotk]

Thanks sensible_G

Been there, done that. Quite a nice site actually, the "funny" audio is actually funny in places, well if you're American or Dutch that is. Not sure that site doesn't breach several countries OPSEC as well....

....and Training Risky, how dare you hijack my self-indulgent sexist thread, with a thought-provoking and decent debate kick-starter :D

Good topic, which we have kicked around on the other means....

[Angry Lizard]

I hate to disagree Risky but should you ever deploy then I am certain the brief you will receive from the organisation I work for will open your mind on the subject of cross-gender issues and possibly make you think twice about your present opinions

[NoSurrender]

As an ex REMF who worked with a large no. of women I would say that there is no place for females in the army. Total waste of space and the uniform makes their arses look fat too.
(with apologies to the 5% who were worth a damn)

[Training Risky]

I consider my mind to be as open as Britain's borders! I will listen to anyone's point of view and defend their right to express it; I don't have to agree with it though.

Bring it on! Let talk about 'cross-gender issues' then.....:eek:

[steamchicken]

well, the Russians used quite a lot of military female fliers during the second world war, and I'd suggest that if you can take the battle of Stalingrad, there's not much you can't! And they can still rape you if you're a bloke...

[foiled again]

I looked at this thread and thought how the heck do I get an astonished smily into the reply.

Get real - Isn't it about time people started to look at the capabilities rather than the packaging? It may be less of a life of choice for females but if those that can meet (objective) criteria then why not.

Howver, current legislation discriminates by way of biological differences against the male gender. Career (what career?) management (ditto) and the needs of the service are likely to sacrificed on the high alter of PC. Career or children but not both.

[Angry Lizard]

Risky, you intimate that only women are susceptable to gang rape. I can inform you now that is completely untrue. Men get raped as often as women do when in a "captive" environment. The only difference is that women actually aren't suprised that it happens to them. In effect they expect it, whereas men with opinions such as yours are completely overcome should they be the victim of rape. It is proven that women victims as a whole deal with the situation both during and post attack much better than their male counterparts. A quick statistic: approx 4500 female rapes occurred int he London areas over a 2 year period. Approximatley the same number of male rapes occurred too, but many went unreported. It happens and it happens frequently. I ask you to consider the following: how would you deal with being gang raped? Bear in mind that you are as likely to be the victim as a woman. Also, seeing as you are both equally likely to be attacked does it not negate your point that women are more of a risk in the frontline?

Looking forward to the final Cornish Camping Club Excursion for this year....all welcome!!!

[StopStart]

Didn't we cover this women-aircrew thing in about 1990?

All a bit old hat frankly. Can't say it's an issue at all anymore.

"Astonished" smiley? Hmmm.....I can offer you -

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/eek3.gif

or

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/moreek.gif

[Training Risky]

Quote: "I'm not saying that women lack the flying skills or officer/SNCO qualities, but deficiencies in upper-body strength, stamina and susceptability to gang rape by (heterosexual) enemy troops is enough argument for me to believe that the policy of exclusion which was legal in Britain until the late '80s, is STILL relevant today!"

I was not implying that 'only women are susceptable to gang rape'. If this is what you inferred from my post, read it again.

I believe I was stating that while it is possible for women to be raped by straight men, I was not excluding the possibility of men to suffer the same from gay troops, (or even straight troops who will do anything to extract intel.)

I'm not qualified (as you might be) to argue which sex is better prepared to handle such an assault. Am I? Well thats something I will hopefully never find out.

This was not my main argument though, this is:

Fact 1. Aircrew (male or female) might be called upon to carry out the same tasks in war that infantry/RAF regt have to carry out,(hand-to-hand combat, digging trenches, carrying casualties/corpses).
Fact 2. Our political masters have decided that women are to be excluded from these posts for reasons of: combat effectiveness, lack of upper-body strength, stamina, and other reasons;

Now is it unreasonable to conclude that appointing female aircrew absolutely flies in the face of the logic posed by fact number 2? I am not supposing for one minute that I am a superman or indeed, many other men are. But there are physiological differences between men and women that make fact number 2 relevant.

Just because the day-to-day work of aircrew is nothing like that of soldiering, doesn't mean that fact number 1, won't happen or hasn't happened before. When it does, I'd like to know that everyone I might have to command in the future can carry out a reasonable task without struggling, therefore placing others lives in danger.

And with regards to the Russian front of WW2, that was an emergency situation requiring 'all hands to the pump'. The operation of modern, effective armed forces cannot be compared with guerrillas fighting a losing battle which was doubtless helped by the fierce Russian winter halting the largely mechanised advance of the Hun.
The Israeli Defence Force tried it a while ago and reversed the decision.

[Nearly there!]

Fact 1 ?!?

Very, very, very tenuous IMHO.

1 - By opening the job up to the widest possible audience, we get to pick the absolute cream of the crop. If the selection people are doing their job right, the women flying in the RAF today are BETTER PILOTS than the men 'whose places' they took.

2 - That we have BETTER PILOTS is of far more consequence than the fact that some of those pilots might not be as good at digging trenches or whatever.

As a final point, how likely do you think it is that £5m-a-time FJ crew would be sent to the front line to dig trenches or carry stretchers? If things were really getting that desperate, we'd need every last person in the country to be fighting - woman or not.

[Training Risky]

If fact 1 is so tenuous why oh why are we subjected to the A course? For fun/sado-masochism? Of course not. It's to give us a mere taster of the physical/mental demands of being pursued and captured by the Hun.
If aircrew are not ever expected to carry out difficult physical infantry type tasks, why do we learn any of the stuff we do at Basic trg? (Section attacks, weapons trg? Admittedly the 'Assault' course at CWL is a joke, made so that the lowest common denominator could pass it.)

I believe that if "the selectors are doing their jobs right" as dictated by MOD policy, the women flying today are no better than some of those men turned away. 'They' need quotas filled to satisfy equal opportunity policies. Women, and ethnic minorities look fantastic at press conferences to combat the CRE's claims of discrimination in the mob. Who out there can deny this fact!

Yes, we need good pilots (why do you say better pilots? compared to who?), but not at the expense of lowering the bar for unsuitable candidates who lack strength/stamina/leadership!!
If we go too far down this road, we'll start training pilots with curvature of the spine, on the basis that they would make excellent multi-engine pilots due to their high aptitude scores!

Finally, I was not saying that it is at all likely that "£5m-a-time FJ crew would be sent to the front line to dig trenches or carry stretchers". That is not what their primary duty is.
But when your all-female graduate FJ crew is downed in the bondu and a platoon of infantry needs their help to get them ALL out of the sh*t, the guys who have women banned from their ranks on grounds of operational effectiveness would be pretty 'annoyed' IF said FJ crew could not yomp/carry/fight!

No- being annoyed is one thing, endangering the lives of comrades is another.

ANGRY LIZARD: I take it you are a sad lonely misfit whose greatest hobby is torturing chaps on Bodmin?

[Nearly there!]

Since when did digging trenches or carrying stretchers form part of the 'A' course? A bit of yomping, perhaps, but no-one believes that aircrew need to be able to yomp as well as the paras. If women pass the course, that should be enough to satisfy you.

The reason Cranwell make aircrew cadets do weapon training, etc, is that they can do 'useful' things such as guard duty (apparently used post-9/11 - or was it during FMD? Can't remember). This is also the reason why student FJ aircrew continue to train on the SA80; they only switch to the pistol at OCU, when they're regarded as being above such menial tasks!

As for the general infantry skills - I can see the Army's reasoning in excluding women from the front line, after all, it's their day-to-day job. However, the remote possibility that aircrew might end up fighting alongside infantry is not enough reason to exclude women from flying. The argument about realistic expectations has been worn out many times in this forum - you can't expect a pilot to be particularly good as a soldier; how many of us male aircrew could claim to be of real value to an infantry squad? The standard required is easily achievable by women, as witnessed on survival exercises throughout the flying training system.

And as for quotas... even if you assume that there are quotas at OASC, and at IOT, where do they go from there? I believe the flying training system has learned something from the first group of women pilots, who were pushed through regardless of ability (or lack thereof). That did no-one any favours. To say that "the bar is lowered for unsuitable candidates who lack strength/stamina/leadership" is arguably true about IOT, but patently untrue about flying training. Try finding an OCU exec who would consciously let a sub-standard female pilot join a sqn.

The reason I say "better pilots" is this - you want your air force to have the best pilots available (some of which are women). If you exclude those women, you have to accept some men of a lower standard. It's a pretty simple argument - by having the biggest possible range of people to choose from, you can pick the best.

Finally - why the reference to 'graduate' in your all-female-FJ-crew example? Did DEs get some secret extra training while graduates were at Uni, or do you simply have a chip-related balance problem??:)

[tracasseries]

NT, AL, TR et al......

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but it really does not matter one whit what any of us on the front line (or Groups or anywhere else in uniform) think - if President Tony decides that we the people are to continue with the policy set circa 1990, the we the people just have to get on with it. When has military efficiency or effectiveness ever been allowed to get in the way of a financial or politically-correct decision?

I have flown with a variety of female pilots, navs and AEOps, and to no great surprise have found that some are very good, some completely useless and most somewhere in between - a bit like the cross-section of the 3 or 4 hundred male aircrew it has been my lot to fly with over the last decade or 2.

The debate might be entertainin, but there are more important things to discuss - like what the hell has happened to all the Chinagraph leads and bodge tape? - how are we supposed to go to war without them?

[The Cryptkeeper]

Sorry to be picky but Paras don't yomp - they tab. Ask any airborne/ex airborne soldier the difference and he'll tell you it's faster!!!!!! As for the point of female aircrew being captured there was definitely a lady medevac pilot downed and captured by Sadda's henchmen during the first Gulf outing and I have read she bore up no worse than her male counterparts and once repatrioted she picked up where she left off.

[cobaltfrog]

Angry Lizard

R U at sleepy hollow in Bedfordshire with paul and caroline?

[swinging monkey]

Training Risky,

I am 100% with you on this.
The real facts are that MANY of the women (aviators) are there because their face fitted, and thats a fact!! Even some of the girls themselves have told me that some of their female colleagues were accepted and graduated/passed simply because the instructors were under strict instructions NOT TO FAIL them.

In the main, 'most' of the women aviators have got to the position they are at simply because of their gender, and certainly NOT because of their ability.

Believe me, I have had first hand experience of this over the past few years:
'I can't fly, my feet hurt' 'My flying suit is too tight' 'Sorry but I'm not in the right frame of mind today' blah - utter rubbish.

I'm sorry girls, I'm sure some of you are good at your job, and some of us 'old boys' are more than happy to fly with you. The problem is that the vast majority of your female colleagues simply arn't up to the job, and should have kept their feet firmly on the ground.

Very sorry girls.

Best wishes to all the good 'ens tho':D :D

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, pass me my handbag, my mascara is running!'

[McD]

Oh dear ... poor solotk puts in a simple request, and his thread then gets hijacked by the old militant crowd :rolleyes: :D

Forgive me, solotk, but I'm just going to say one thing regarding the hijacked portion of the thread.

[Mini-rant] If what Swinging Monkey says is true "the vast majority of your female colleagues simply arn't up to the job, and should have kept their feet firmly on the ground" then who the heck selected these women; who allowed them to progress in training if they weren't up to the job; and who is allowing them to remain in these positions?? If they had (or have) a bad attitude or substandard abilities, they should have been booted before they had a chance to let down their side, in order to make room for the other qualified pilots (of either gender) who ARE up to the job.

Maybe it's a little different in the US -- and no, I'm not saying we do things perfectly either, because we have had a very small number of women who got into fighter or other mil cockpits when they had no business being there. However, the vast, vast majority, (who were selected and trained on their own merit instead of some misguided PC agenda) have served their squadrons very well through the years. Most guys in their squadrons don't even think about them as being "girl pilots" or "women pilots" or whatever .. they're just one of the squadron pilots. Wonder why you don't hear about them? Because they're simply doing their job, fully and competently, upholding and executing all requirements and responsibilites of the position (i.e. the way they are supposed to be doing it) -- and that doesn't make the news.

Moral? Keep the selection and training standards constant; demand the same (not better, not worse) standard of performance from everyone ==> problem solved. [/Mini-rant]

-----

Back to solotk's topic .... wish I could help you, mate! Sadly, my mil flying days are behind me now, so I'm afraid I'm of no use to you ;)

[2 TWU]

Swinging Monkey, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

I'm involved in instructing and can categorically deny that there is any pressure to get the girls through. Some girls are good, the majority are average, some are poor---exactly like their male counterparts and that's it. If a stude deserves to pass they will, if they don't, they won't.

[Angry Lizard]

Cobalt Frog - I could not possibly confirm or deny such a scurrilous allegation unless you were to mail me personally!

Training Risky - Unfortunately I do not fit the template you describe. I can comment on things infantry as I am a Rock. I can also comment (broadly of course) on A course type events as I have attended many run by varying different agencies.

Firstly under no circumstances will you as aircrew ever be involved in "difficult infantry type tasks". You are not trained to do it and in the fast moving, section level battle you would be a liability. You are aircrew and know your job, the section commander knows his and never the twain shall meet. Your exposure to this subject at Cranwell is used mainly as a leadership tool in order to apply pressure to challenge the old grey matter.

As regards the Cornish Camping Club outings, just remember that we are providing a training vehicle and the end result is a person better qualified to deal with something that I hope never happens to anyone of you. One of the reasons we are selected to serve with the unit is we are able to switch off the behaviour once we knock off, many can't and are rejected. We are quite pleasant in real life! Anyone for a beer in Newquay?

Cobalt Frog - It appears I have!

[swinging monkey]

2 TWU

I can't comment on what the standards are at the moment, but I defy you to put your name to this forum and say categorically that in the early days my comments were NOT TRUE:D :D

If you have been around for the past 10 years+ or more, then you will know exactly what I mean. Ask the girls themselves, even they will concur!!

If you are saying that things have now got better, and the girls are now getting through on merit, and NOT on the quotas given to you by the airships and MPs, then I will retract my comments.

The thing is, I speak frequently to many colleagues who, like you possibly, are in the training/instructor world. The fact is, they keep telling me that things are just the same, and that you are still being forced to work to quotas, whether you like it or not.

The sad thing is that, good or bad, we are now so desperately short of front line aircrew, of ALL trades, that to chop someone is virtually unheard of these days - hence the quality of many.

Wake up 2 TWU, I admire your loyalty and dedication to the fairer sex, but ask yourself this.........
Would you like to go to war with them?? (sounds like a line from a film :p )

I have been 'to war' with them, and I can tell you it's crap!!

Regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, have you seen my handbag?'

[propulike]

Swinging Monkey

Please don't taint every female flier with your past experiences. The policy of passing girls through flying training in the late 80's/early 90's (which I witnessed so don't tell me it didn't happen then) was recognised remarkably quickly by the lords and masters as not helping recruitment, and doing a lot to damage the effectivness of front line squadrons. It most certainly does not happen now. I'm not saying all the female aircrew are great, nor that they're bad - just that they have to pass the course like everyone else and we ALL have to meet the same standard.

As to would I go 'to war' with them? I do. Regularly!
And no, I don't have any pictures :p

[BEagle]

I've also trained and worked with many female aircrew. In the past 10 years, only one that I know of simply played the system for her own hidden agenda. The others have all been fine; however, another did realise that she'd made the wrong career decision as she would never be likely to be co-located with her husband - except, perhaps, on a detachment if it happened to work out that way.

At UAS, once the 'glamour girl novelty' nonsense of the first few years had passed, I found that the lady students generally polarised into those who really wouldn't ever make it - and the vast majority who were fine. Interestingly, we found that 'average' to a bloke meant 'good enough - shall go to the pub', whereas to a woman it meant 'I need to work harder'!

But some posting on this thread do have a point; the genetic 'protectionism' of the male psyche means that, as no doubt Angry Lizard, Royal Rock and the other Disco Queens will bear witness, threats made by the bad guys against a fellow captive who is a female are something that an interrogator would probably exploit in order to prompt a degree of 'co-operation'....

"Tell us what you know or the jailers get to play with the girl". What would you do?

[2 TWU]

Swinging Monkey

I can't vouch for what happened 10 yrs ago, as I'm sure you can't; yes, we've all heard rumours but how much credence can you put on rumours? I have been around for much longer than the 10 yrs you quote, 3 times as long if you wish to know, but at the time you are alluding to I was overseas and not involved in the training role. So, if there were "quotas", then I am not in a position to confirm or deny, can you with any degree of authority?

What I can say is that where I now instruct there are no such quotas, all studes pass or fail on their merits irrespective of gender.

[swinging monkey]

2 TWU

I'm delighted to hear it old boy. As to it happening 10 years ago or not, well I wasn't in the training system either, however, I've spend the last 10 years (plus the 23 before that!) flying on front line sqns, and I've seen the calibre (regretably) at first hand.

Propulike, I'm delighted your comments concur with mine, but I did make it clear that NOT ALL of them are like those I eluded to. But many are!
And as for going to war with them, regularly? I can only assume that the ones that get to your sqns are a damned sight better than the ones that have come to mine!!
If that's the case, you have been lucky and I envy you!!

But believe me, there is nothing in this world that compares with sharing a tent in the desert with a moaning, bleating, whinging, griping, nagging female aviator!!:mad: :mad:
I'm afraid i have no pictures either:(

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, another G & T, there's a good chap'

[A Civilian]

Im sure the reason why there are no female air crew is identical to why there are no female formula 1 racing drivers and no female snooker players.

[Angry Lizard]

BEagle, I must be honest and own up to the fact that Royal Rock and I are the same person. Unfortunately owing to a good Gunner moment I washed the part of my hand that my password was written on hence the new ID!

The cross gender issues that arise as you mentioned are most definately an advantage in my line of work. Possibly, "Tell us what you know or I will force you to play with the girl, and one of your mates too...!"

I am incredibly curious as to the origin of the term Disco Queens. Put me out of my misery and explain it to me please. I like a bit of banter makes me smile.

[BEagle]

ICATQ!







.

[Angry Lizard]

No way!!! Now I am even more curious.

"Unless you tell me I vill be forced to make sure zat for you ze var vill be ofer"

OR I will cordially invite you to the 03 inaugural gathering of the Cornish Camping Club!!

Go on tell me what it means you swine!

[luke77]

I helped convex a female Tornado front-seater once and she was fine - and she drank with the boys! I also got stories also about those that were "pushed" through basic and advanced training from mates who trained said ladies - and that "top" decision was a bad military move.
I think, therefore I am right, that despite "top" "PC" directives, the further a lady FJ pilot advanced, the less likely incompetence would pass - especially on a front-line FJ Sqn.
There were exceptions apparently during the early years

Blah Blah Blah

[BlueWolf]

Some diametrically opposed opinions which are probably of no use to the thread...

BEags, if the jailers want to play with the girl, they're going to whether you tell them anything useful or not. That's the nature of Bad Guys.

Should she be there in the first place? Hmm...

Military Uniformed Female Flyers (M.U.F.F.'s) most definitely have a place in the armed forces of the Free West. That's part of what makes us Free, and part of what makes us West.

But should we send our women to war? Many cultures, the Celts included, have and have had, a tradition of Women Warriors. Sometimes this has been as a result of necessity, sometimes in recognition of ability. A big strong Valkyrie or Amazon is undoubtedly more capable on the battlefield than a myopic seven-stone conscripted accountant.

One of the most impressive and capable individuals it has been my privilege to know is a flying instructor qualified on both Fast Jets and Helicopters. She is (admittedly younger) faster and fitter than me (out of my league in video game car racing), at least as clever, far better trained, just as well educated albeit in different disciplines, hard headed, focussed; in fact, all the things one could want in a military pilot...and gorgeous to boot.
But do I want to see her go to war? No! I want to protect her. (Humour me for a moment with the assumption that I am better capable of protecting her than she me). I have no way of knowing how well either of us would stand up to capture by a slant-eyed or towel-headed enemy hell bent on cruelty or personal violation; but frankly, given the choice, I would rather it was me than her who was put into that situation.
Maybe it's a silly attitude. If it is then it's one I'm proud to hold.

I guess, if push comes to shove, as others have alluded to, it may be a case of all hands to the pump. So maybe the question of inclusion comes down to the relative necessity of the particular war one is contemplating?

There are some things men and women can and can't do, and some things they should and shouldn't do. For example, men can't have babies, and women can't pee standing up.
By the same token, men shouldn't shave their legs, and women shouldn't go to war. Unless either is absolutely necessary.
I mean, war is a guy thing, you know?!

Let's keep the M.U.F.F.s flying transports, trainers, MP, SAR, and all the other missions where we can guarantee their safety (just like we can guarantee anyone's) until the fertilizer hits the ventilator, at which point we can change the rules for as long as proves necessary.

I'm quite keen to see some pics if you find any, solotk
:)

[foiled again]

BlueWolf - I would not fancy your chances against, for example, that well-known chariot-with-fancy-curved-blades-driving female warrior of a past age.

Let's face it, there will always be some who want to do this sort of thing and, providing the training standards are objective (that's the real test). In my experience, if you treat servicewomen the same as servicemen, then you tend to get the same result. Bottom line is think outside the box ...... and don't let it become an issue.

[solotk]

I know Blue, so was I.....:(

Unfortunately, my thread was hijacked for the purposes of intellectual discussion and reasoned debate......GITS!

Come on, there has to be some piccies of Grobag Totty somewhere :D

[Fg Off Max Stout]

OK, so she may not be a pilot but .......

Good God, I wish she was on my unit .

:D

http://militaryphoto.com/No%20MR%20Women/3272.jpg

[BlueWolf]

Guys, in honour of Albino (if that is her name) we owe it to the women of the world's military to form a Fan Club in her name, with silly competitions, awards, a pornography exchange, honorary blow-up dolls, and all sorts of other banal, childish, testosterone-driven stuff.

Whaddaya say? It would be a mark of respect, at the very least.

[solotk]

I'm with you Blue, she's a babe.........

Wonder if I can find anymore babes........

:D

[L J R]

You and your female crew mate are shot down and are both captured.

Both are tortured in front of each other.

What would you do.



seriously.......

[solotk]

LJR, could you rephrase that, it lost something in translation...

...Still looking for GrobagGirlies....:D

[smartman]

LJR

Join in ??

(sorry);)

[verticalgyro]

LJR;
Probably be in excruciating pain, babbling frequencies and the like out as fast as i could, certainly faster than she could, and wishing they would leave me alone. Ever seen 1984 with John Hurt?, or more to the point, ever been interrogated?

[solotk]

The moment they reached for the alligator clips, I'd be screaming for the shorthand secretary....

As Richard Pryor said

"If you ever get into trouble, and there's more of them than you....RUUUUUUUUUNNNNNN, and teach your wife or girlfriend to run too. That way, you don't have to go back and rescue her ass"

[laidbak]

To add to kilo52's post of 11/26/02, I'll second that; said female demonstrated abilities and competence first as a fast jet Jengo(a not un-challenging assignment) before becoming one of first femme pilots.
Unfazed,knowledgeable,competent (and damn nice pins/bodaceous),I'd rather have her as PIC than a lot of the didlos I knew in my 'career' in the service. She may be flying you to your next vacation destination...
As to the gender issue, it's just a reprise of what's gone before (race,physical fitness/whatever); though it's an interesting and amusing subject, for sure some folks are challenged by incorp of women in trad male roles- lack of self-confidence ?!

[foiled again]

Laidbak - nicely put!

[laidbak]

Just getting started on the rant now...this is fun...

Lotsa good posts here, incl. (presumably deliberate) outrageous ones. Having reviewed such:

1) Upper body strength : n/a, n/r. Be honest- are you in shape ? My feeling is in corpore sana, mens sana (mangled Latin,it's been a while). But I knew a lot of very competent 'slugs' on the squadrons ; lardbutts/jiggly upper thoraxes didn't appear to interfere with the job. As to getting downed and ability to perform E & E, that's a personal choice, just as female aircrew accepting consequences of such. As regards handling morts,ever heard of MASH nurses/doctors?
2) As was eloquently pointed out previously, we are the free world- discrimination here makes us no better than 'paternalistic' cultures viz Islam etcetera.
3)Ability is prime and sole consideration. As a 'colonial' I was recipient of a fair amount of discrimination going thru training machine (by the way it's bhundu/bundu not bondu)- didn't speak right etcetera. There were, and surely still are a few guys on the squadron who could barely cut it- how did they get thru? Has there always been a quota for incompetent male doofae as well?

F.I.D.O.

[Tourist]

Two equally interesting threads running here.
For the first I would just say that there is a female pilot i used to serve with that i would far rather have with me in an escape and evasion scenario than, for example, any crab wuss I have met, and for the second, Who else remembers the US F-15 Pilot called Fifi that displayed at Kokside Airshow in Belgium a few years ago. Now she was charming. Bit of an attitude though:rolleyes: ;)