Alcohol & Aviation

[Greyman]

I attended a morning briefing this week where the subject of drinking and flying was aired; it got me thinking. To refresh my memory I looked up the relevant section in JSP 318, and found nothing but bland statements of the obvious and woolly guidance that would have a first year law student salivating at the prospect of an easy defence.

Now, if we were honest, I’m sure we could all recall many incidents of crews flying while under the influence, or after effects, of alcohol. Doesn’t it seem strange that formal limits (as in driving) have never been set? We know it happens, but the hierarchy appear to condone it by their inaction. People will no doubt say, “but surely it’s all down to the integrity of the individual”. True, but integrity is a virtue in rather short supply these days! The fact remains that people are still getting seriously injured (and countless near misses) and the whole issue is paid lip service to.

Isn’t it time to be professional about the business of flying we care so much about? Why not make formal breath testing during the crewing-out process a voluntary act; if you choose not to, you don’t fly. Thoughts, comments? G

:eek:

[brit bus driver]

Not sure who you work for, but we DO have formal rules and regulations stipulating how much, how long before and that the over-riding rule is " no person shall operate an aircraft whilst under the effects of alcohol". And who has been "seriously injured" recently as a result of drinking?

Still, at least your post should start a nice media witch-hunt for all the drunken military pilots out there......do I hear Channel 4 at the door?
:D

[Lost_luggage34]

Don't be so riduculous - you should not be allowed to fly with that opinion of alcohol and flying.

[Pub User]

LL34

Who are you replying to?

Greyman, who berates anyone who thinks of flying whilst under the influence of alcohol, or BBD, who reminds us of the military regulations, and points out the absolute lack of attributable accidents?

Either attitude seems quite healthy to me.

[Cartman, E]

Formal limits have indeed been introduced in driving but how many manufacturers have put in a breath testing device linked to the ignition system of a car? I think even I could design one for less then a hundred quid or so per car.

Formal limits have been well documented in millitary flying, and as someone who has come through the training system fairly recently I have had many a lecture on the "10 hour bottle to throttle" or whatever - and that "bottle" 10 hours before must only be one of a couple, ie drinking in moderation.

I would also estimate that drinking and driving/flying causes more deaths on the road than in the air, mainly because there is crew responsible for an aircraft rather then an individual responsible for a car. Nobody is daft enough to say aircrew don't ever get drunk, but in the military we realise this is the case and if the occasion arises the indivdual will put both hands up and admit it and will be monitored closely by the crew. As Pub User points out, nobody will be in charge of and aircraft whilst under the influence of alcohol - full stop!

I'm sure single seat operators will have an altogether different procedure, ie not getting in to this situation.

Bottom of the line, the armed services which operate under JSP318 (to which you refer) have had no attributable incidents that I have seen, certainly in my short career and I'm sure there will be other members of this forum to back this up well past my 1997 join date.

[Greyman]

LL34 :confused: :confused: :confused:

Cartman E

'..formal limits have been well documented in military flying, and as someone who has come through the flying training system fairly recently I have had many a lecture on the "10 hour bottle to throttle" or whatever - and that "bottle" 10 hours before must only be one of a couple, ie drinking in moderation...'

Thank you for your doctrinaire response which rarther nicely highlights my point: why the 10 hour rule when the after effects of even moderate alcohol consumption can be detected in the CNS for up to 72 hours? What exactly constitutes 'drinking in moderation'? I'm sure that my interpretation of moderation is entirley different to yours. It is a fact that some of our colleagues, on occasion, drink way beyond the most liberal interpretation of moderation, and feel safe so long as they don't infringe the 10 hour rule. They may crew-in and appear fit to fly to the the DA, colleagues or crew, but the degredation to the functioning of their CNS (including S-C canals) and higher reasoning skills still lurks.

From your post, I assume you are fairly recent to the front line. If you haven't witnessed what I describe then your are either:
a. Very fortunate.
b. Brainwashed by the system.
c. A social outcast.

You state further that, "nobody is daft enough to say military aircrew don't ever get drunk, but in the military we realise that this is the case and if the occasion arises the individual will put both hands up and admit it and will be monitored closely by the crew."

If this is what you meant to say, then by your own admission individuals are reporting to fly while under the influence/after effects of alcohol! Why should the crew be burdoned with having to monitor a suspect front-ender? What about your responsibility to the crew and/or pax?

Surley, if absolute limits were declared and the ambiguities of the current rules clarified, crews would think twice before giving in to the 'just one more won't hurt' temptation that lurks within us all.






;) G

[Dunhovrin]

I seem to remember the RAF had no drinking within 10 hours of the cockpit, The USAF had no drinking within 12 hours of the cockpit and the RAAF had no drinking within 50' of the cockpit.

[timex]

At the end of the day should you tie one on, then the "joker" is played, you own up and let someone else have your slot. Not good for the programmers but that is a minor snag

[sangiovese.]

Well when the pilot has his arms round the nav pre-flight and says "you're my besht mate" he's over the limit:) :)

I'll get my coat........

[sidewalk]

Greyman writes

“I attended a morning briefing this week where the subject of drinking and flying was aired; it got me thinking. To refresh my memory I looked up the relevant section in JSP 318, and found nothing but bland statements of the obvious and woolly guidance…”

If you sit a little more upright in your crew chair you will be less likely to stare at your navel.
No law is needed to protect us from either the obvious or your “woolly guidance”

You are a true child of the Nanny State and respond in typical fashion when someone/anyone disagrees with your musings as in:

Quote:
“From your post, I assume you are fairly recent to the front line. If you haven't witnessed what I describe then your are either:
a. Very fortunate.
b. Brainwashed by the system.
c. A social outcast.”


Ahhh, yes, the front line.
You joined the wrong army….try the Salvos.

[Greyman]

Sidewalk

Re your comment '..you are a true child of the nanny state...'

In fact you couldn't be further from the truth; individuals should be responsible for their own actions, particularly in aviation. However, that only holds good if no one else is involved. Add a crew and/or pax and collective responsibility must outweigh the individual.

Like most in our business, I am a firm advocate of the 'work hard, play hard' ethos. What I find difficult to endorse is when last night's 'play hard' impinges on today's 'work hard'! Unfortunately we all need to be protected from our excesses when other people's lives are on the line. Consider it like a game: unless everybody knows and agrees to abide by the rules, the whole game breaks down.

Wouldn't it be perfect if we all had your self control :)

Oh yes, thanks for the input! G

[Cartman, E]

Greyman,

The question still remains unanswered - how many military accidents/incidents have been directly related to alcohol in recent years???

Yes, let not sit and wait for things to go wrong, but when things are clearly not broken...........

Lets try and not mix up our operations with tabloid reports of the civilian way of doing things!!

I may be fairly recent to the front line, and may or may not have witnessed what you describe, but if I had I would certainly not discuss it with YOU on an open forum!!!!!



Sidewalk,

TOTALLY!!!!

Eric

[brit bus driver]

I have to say, this post smacks of a personal incident that the Greyman feels he has to air somewhere, but cannot speak to the individual(s) concerned about. I'm with Cartman and, as I posted previously, this sort of post will only serve to fan the flames of some journos attempts to get one over on the military.

It happens, period. In civil aviation (see Channel 4 "documentary", pilots arrested in Miami prior to departure etc) and (allegedly) in military aviation. If it happens to you, deal with it in whatever way you see fit, but please don't try to tar us all with the "we're just a bunch of drunks who love to go flying brush"!

:mad: