conviction

[captainmacuk]

Hi there,

I am a commercial pilot wannabee and next year I am starting my modular training up to ATPL level, what I am worrying about though is the fact that I am up in court for drink driving, the worst thing that could have probably happened to me as i think this will affect my flying(commercially), does anyone know if this will restrict me from becoming a airline pilot/instructor as it stays recorded for 10 years,

thanks

[spitfire747]

Not sure on the licence issue side, probably not, but on the application form for jobs it asks you to list convictions, maybe a tricky one !

This wasn't caused by a late night trip to a Christmas party was it ?

Endangering the lives of a few on the road is stupid but the lives of 300 holiday makers behind you is ...

[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: spitfire747 ]</p>

[bow5]

This is purely hearsay, but I was told in the US that anything like that on your record would cause serious problems. That may be just in the U.S. though. Given the chosen career path, perhaps not the brightest idea to be drink driving.

[Go-Around]

Serves you right.

[4Screwaircrew]

I think I am right in saying that you would have to declare this to the FAA and a second conviction would/could result in enforcment action as they then consider you to be a risk. However I have flown with people who had drink drive convictions within the airline industry so on its own I doubt it will prevent you getting a job. I think though that you will find that given a similar level of experience to other applicants you would be less likely to be called for an interview than someone without a drink drive conviction. You may welll find that in the medium term you have made life vey difficult for yourself, there is no excuse for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As a low time no experience pilot with thousands of similarly qualified co-applicants this conviction will see your CV in the bin faster than a Ryanair 737-200 taxi.

If you leave it off your details then you will be breaking your contract of employment and thus liable to instant dismissal for your entire career with that company should anyone ever blow the whistle.

The press would just love to come up with an expose of an airline pilots who was also a drunk driver.

Basically you are totally screwed and I would not bother trying to enter the profession particularly at this difficult time.

WWW

[Metsys]

A friend of mine was convicted of drink driving, the airline did not find out. He continued to fly, and drink! He fell asleep at the holding point and the F.O. could not wake him and so returned the aircraft to the ramp. He was sacked.

With no airline job he turned to light aircraft charter. Flying fish in from Scandinavia. Customs examined the fish one day and found it stuffed with drugs. He went to prison.

On his release from prison he continued to drink. Well now he is dead from liver damage. A great guy, but I nor anyone I know would trust a pilot with a drink drive conviction.

[Matthewjharvey]

I agree that this is very bad and in no way condone drinking and driving, but if a guy gets done for having a pint and a half and gets punished once - well we all make mistakes sometimes, to punish someone for there entire life in this way is a little sad. Of course if they offend again then it shows signs of a problem.

I was an instructor in the states with a great guy, no drink problems, no drug problems, a great pilot. However one night he had a few drinks at a party and drove home. He got stopped and convicted. I can assure you it was a one off, a big mistake, and something he hadn't done before or since. The next month he got hired by American Eagle despite disclosing his conviction - and from then on he's been progressing up the ladder in that airline - and bloody good luck to him.

I presume from some of the replies above that no one has any speeding convictions, parking violations etc and of course no one has ever driven with more than a sherry trifle and half a wine gum down their necks.

Again I am in no way condoning this in any way just trying to look at slightly different perspectives.

[MorningGlory]

John Standen,

Hi mate, (one of your last students at ppsc), your mate wasn't Dave Webb was it? (Soz Dave only joking). Hope things are going okay for you guys!

[Zulu]

The Greaser - sorry, there are no different perspectives here.

It's one thing to take risks with your own life, quite another if you're entrusted with potentially up to 400+ other people lives.

I don't care if a pilot parks on a double yellow line - I sure as hell do if they drink, and then drive.

One night you have a few drinks and drive home.
One night you have a few drinks and go to work.

What's the difference? NONE.

Yes, people make mistakes. And they are punished, be it fines/prison etc. And I'm afraid for drink drivers, never being a commercial pilot responsible for other people's lives is part of that. It's really that simple.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Captainmacuk:

It is not the end of your life nor does it mean the end of your career.

There just to many variables, such as if this was the only real dumb thing on your record and you face up to the fact that you made a very grave mistake and go on with your life and never repeat offend in any way, I am sure your career is salvageable.

I am willing to bet that a lot of those who pass judgement on others are also guilty of making the same mistakes, just didn't get caught.

Think about it, and all the best.

................

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[maxy101]

I understand that some kind of conviction is a pre-requisite for management in Big Airways, as those readers of the News of the World will testify!!

[BoeingBoy]

To put a little fact on all the judgmental opinions expressed above, the law as I understand it is this.

If convicted, you are legally obliged to declare the conviction to a potential employer if so requested to do so. Failiure, as mentioned above is falsifying evidence and would lead to summary dismissal.

Your conviction will be granted a period before it is known to be 'spent'. After this period you are legally entitled under the rehabilitation of offenders act 1974 to withhold information about the conviction as it is deemed to have become 'spent'and therefore effectively 'null and void'. However the police will still have it on their databases for life. They of course are not able to divulge that to anyone, (Unless a private detective greases the right palms of course).

Thus you will have to declare it on a job application, and if it was only for a minor 'one off' transgression your best plan is to put 'Discuss at interview' in the box related to convictions in the hope that your other qualities shine through enough to get you through the front door. Then you have the opportunity to tell the facts of the case and downplay the whole thing.

As far as the CAA are concerned, the medical form no longer asks for information about convictions. It used to, but I noticed the last one didn't. Whether they still require it for initial issue I don't know. Generally, I have found the CAA to take the view that if the crime is for an offence unlikely to be repeated in the air, then they take no action. Thus, for example crimes leading to violence on the ground such as night club punch ups or marital disputes are not immediatly blocked as the stimulus to reach such levels of anger are unlikely to be provided at work. (Mind you they havn't seen me and Greek handling agents!!)A drink drive conviction is not likely to be a problem if it is truly a one off, but a history would certainly raise interest from the CAA.

In times of dire pilot shortages I have even known of a pilot being approached in prison to see if he would like a job on release. (No not me!)

It all comes down to supply and demand. The bigger operators will take a stiff attitude to anything that deems to 'let the squadron down'! So you may find it hard to make the larger jet operators. But at the end of the day if you fit in and the company like you, then all this will slip into history over time.


Generally, I would say don't be too down hearted, but in the present economic climate I woudn't advise anyone to spend vast amounts on training until the economy picks up.

Incidentally I know of one First Officer that joined a UK charter operator with a fresh drink drive conviction, witheld it, flew for a year avoiding the need for using hire cars, and has now gone on to another airline. So it can be done, but I woudn't recommend it as if you are found out the 'internal network' between UK operators will ensure that the African market is about the only place you'll be likely to get a job.

Good luck in the mean time.

[ironbutt57]

Wow metsys...you should get a job with the faa...anyway, one drink drive in the states will not render you unemployable, just slightly less competetive...they will find out, as employers are required to access the national driver register to obtain driving records, in europe, not sure what mechanisms are in place...don't think it is a major worry...write to BALPA the pilot's union..maybe they could offer some insight, also any reputable flight school should be able to offer information regarding this query....water under the bridge...next time take a cab....good luckWow metsys

[clear prop!!!]

Well mate, you’ve got the predictable responses from the ‘I’m all right Jack’ brigade.

Sad thing is that they do have a bit of a point, which however, might have been put a bit more sympathetically.

I for one offer you my genuine sympathy. I suspect you do have a problem at the moment if you want to progress an Airline career due to the current situation.

This is a young mans/girls game and we have all made mistakes. Sadly you made probably the worst one possible other than flying under the influence.

If this WAS a genuine one-off never, to be repeated mistake, then instructing is perhaps not ruled out.

It is unlikely that you will be come across the Spanish inquisition when applying for instructor’s jobs.

But, if you are inclined to take risks with drink and mechanical devices then stay well out of our skies ….for good!!

BTW I suggest you change your profile entry under interests from ‘drinking and flying’!!!!!

Having said all that you are a bloody stupid pratt!!(but I'm sure you already know that!).

Good luck

[redsnail]

#1. Learn from your mistake.
#2. Be honest about it.
#3. Don't ever do it again.

It may slow you down a fraction or it may not. Who honestly knows? I have mates in Oz that have spent drink drive convictions (and serious ones at that) that are flying for Qantas, Virgin Blue, (ex) Ansett and various respectable charter operators.
When in court be as remorseful as possible. And mean it.
Just remember rules #1 to #3.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And how are you going to get to work for the next couple of years? Walk?

Someone will notice. Someone will guess. Rumours will abound. Somone will be a real drink driving Nazi. They will shout their mouth off. A mate of a mate who works in the local rag will hear. He will check the court briefs. He will compile a lovely little expose to shock the local populace. He will put it on file for a slow news day. That day will come.

"Drunk Driver Flies A 60 Ton Jet Over YOUR House EVERY Day!"

"Drink Drive Convict At Control Of Holiday Plane!"

"Hello This Is Your Captain Speaking - Hic!"

Etc. etc. etc.

For a small regional operator such press coverage could lead to a temporary drop in sales of say 10%, causing a temporary cash flow problem, causing the company to go under in these marginal times.

You'd be the worst kind of liability.

Sorry, I don't wish you ill. I don't have a big problem personally with being a little bit over the limit. Hell, just over half of all pedestrians killed in "Alchol related accidents" were over the limit themselves.. And I know of far more people in their 20's who drive having taken E, Speed or Cannabis and driven that I do who drink and society does nothing about that.

WWW

[Dan Winterland]

You do have a problem with this one, but there are others in your position who do have flying jobs. The current situaition will not be condusive to getting a job with your conviction, but I predict in a couple of years we will be in the same situation as we were after the Gulf War when all training stopped. In 1993 when things picked up, all you needed to get a job was a licence and a pulse!

[Blindside]

I have no idea how badly your future career will be affected. What I'm not going to do is thumb my nose and tell you what an idiot you've been, you won't need to be told that anyway.

Everybody makes mistakes, not everybody admits to them.

Just learn by it.

[scroggs]

I have to agree that your chances of employment just now are probably not good, for all the reasons mentioned by others. Yes, you will hear of many examples of people who are currently employed with a DD conviction in their past, but unless you know their full history and the context of their employment you are unable to judge the relevance to your situation. I would say that, as a beginner, you are royally stuffed in the current market.
If you are as sensible as you sound, you will put this behind you and attack another career until such time as the market is hungry enough for new pilots to ignore something that by then you will have shown was an out-of-character episode that has not been repeated, and that you have conducted your life utterly responsibly in the intervening years.
There are many examples out there of people who have rebuilt their lives after similar (and bigger) mistakes, but it will take time, and aviation just now is not likely to be the place to serve out your rehabilitation. Sorry.

[captainmacuk]

Hi again,

Cheers for the replys,

I do understand that I have made a very bad mistake, and im going to put the incident behind me,
I am not going to surrender my dream though, there is still some light at the end of the tunnel,
I pleaded not guilty in court as there is an appeal going through the court on the accuracy of the intoximeter, my reading was very close to the limit(I know i was still over)but im just preparing for the worst, and also Im only 18 so in 11 years the offence can come of my licence and there is not a need to tell employers,

For the time being though ill concentrate on college and save hard for my training
As long as there is not a problem gaining the licences then i will get there,

thanks

[redsnail]

Mate, so long as you cop it sweet, shut up about it and never (repeat never) do it again you should survive with no real dramas. It will muck you up short term but long term it shouldn't hurt you as long as you never do it again. But I repeat... don't talk about it unless asked for in an interview.
Good luck
PS, my brother drank and drove. They (paramedics)cut him out of the wreck alive. Hence my empathy and support. He's not an agent of the devil, he made a very bad call when he was young (ie 20). He paid the price and he'll carry those scars (on his leg) to the grave. He cannot walk without pain ever..... (this is for those who think that I don't understand the seriousness of drink driving - I do)

[Legalapproach]

Captainmacuk,

Sorry to hear about your misfortune and I suspect that you will have learnt a costly lesson. You talk about the conviction being recorded for ten years and BoeingBoy has already provided you with some useful and accurate advice. To clarify, the basic principals are as follows:

1. The conviction will remain recorded with the police and with DVLC for life.

2. Subject to some specified occupations you will not have to disclose the conviction to a relevant employer once the rehabilitation period under the 74 Act has expired. [section 4(3)(a)]

3. The most likely sentence will be a fine. The rehabilitation period in respect of a fine is 5 years (two and half years if under 18 at the time of conviction) after which the conviction is spent.

4. There is a mandatory 12 month minimum disqualification from driving. If you receive a second drink drive conviction within 10 years (and this is where you may have got the figure from) you will be subject to a minimum period of disqualification of 3 years plus whatever other penalty the Court imposes. For this reason the conviction will remain as an endorsement on your driving licence for the relevant period.

5. If you fail to disclose a conviction to a prospective employer when asked and before the conviction has become spent you are committing a criminal offence in that you are attempting to, or if you get the job are, obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception contrary to section 16(2)(c) of the Theft Act 1968. I have known people to be prosecuted for this and personally I would not take the risk at the start of your career - a conviction for dishonesty will be much worse than for D/D.

Best advice as already given by others would be to come clean with any prospective employer.

That will be 250 guineas please.

[Tristar Freak]

It is always such a pleasure to read the positve contribution of the Welsh Nostradamus. Just toddle off and top yourself now,son. WWW has spoken, you career is doomed, you will never work in aviation ever again. Yep, even if you do get a job it will be your fault when the airline goes bust.

I wonder what it is like to be a faultless 737 pilot who has never done anything wrong? I guess I will never find out as the aviation industry in the UK is doomed since 11/09/01.

[Not_Another_Pot]

What! Are you telling me that it is not a prerequisite that all pilots be alcoholics! Odd because most that I know are!

I read somewhere that pilots have a high proportion of “problem drinkers” amongst their ranks.

Never mind mate, you just got caught. Have a beer, laugh and move on but DO NOT get caught again!

NAP

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Five years until your conviction is spent is not so bad. If you pop off to Uni now for three years then spend 2 years gaining your licenses the market will have recovered and your conviction will be spent. You are back in business!

Good luck.

Tristar Freak - chill dude. How did you get on with those exams by the way?

WWW

[Peter Skellan]

Well I have seen drink driving convictions destroy the careers of 2 friends of mine who were Captains on their respective jets. The airlines in both cases hounded them out and in the one case BALPA just were not interested in mounting a serious defence.

That being the case the situation of a Wannabe with 200hrs would be dire. As the forum Moderators - both of whom I note are current airline pilots - have tried to say and to illustrate.

The bitchy comments by people like Tristar Freak make me quite angry. I have seen a range of opinions and advice on this forum from which the individual can choose. To attack people presenting part of that range because it does not fit in with your view is childish and counter productive.

But thats people I suppose.

PS

[Busta Level]

[quote] To attack people presenting part of that range because it does not fit in with your view is childish and counter productive.
<hr></blockquote>

So why did you launch an entirely unprovoked and ill informed personal attack on me for my views over on the bmi thread Mr Skellington?

Planks of wood and all that old boy...If you're going to be abrasive, at least be consistent. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

On the topic of drunk driving - this article is quite thought provoking -

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1750000/1750575.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1750000/1750575.stm</a>

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Busta Level ]</p>

[Peter Skellan]

I attacked your view. I never said you should not have presented it.

PS

[Capt Wannabee]

I think a lot will depend on who interviews you if you do go for interview before the conviction is wiped clean.

Having seen a friend of mine about to get his dream job have it all snatched from him by a drink driver who left him paralysed for life I may be among the less sympathetic. I would put you to the bottom of the pile.

I think some people will have the 'boys will be boys' attitude and it may not really affect their decision.

You seem to know you have done wrong and have learnt your lesson so I assume will not do it again.
I hope things work out for you as the last thing I want to see is someone else's dreams ruined by one pint to many.

Good luck and get a Taxi next time!

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Capt Wannabee ]</p>

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

"WWW your initial response was way out of line.I thought you were a probationary F/O ,i didn't realise you are now(apparently) GM of a flight ops.You sound like you are worried about your job,i suggest you concerntrate on holding it rather than sh***ing on people."

No. My intial response was what I still think. I am not a probationary F/O whatever one of those is.

I have no idea what a GM of Flight Ops is. General Manager?

I am not worried about my job, thanks. I did not realise I was defecating on anybody. The guy came onto my forum and asked a straightforward question. To which I gave my straightforward answer. Followed by an expanded illustration and further argument.

Followed by a note of personal encouragement and a note that I felt the actual offence to be of little consequence to my own moral code.

You obviously disagree with me. That is your perogative. Which I respect.

WWW

[slim_slag]

I've seen the cold bodies on the cold mortuary slabs of those innocents killed by drunk drivers. Some of them were really quite pretty people. I don't have any problem in moral condemnation of those who take control of a ton or so of metal and drive it when they are pissed up. I'd lock them up every weekend for 6 months or so and take their licences off them for a lot longer than a year. In the times when you can easily get a taxi it shows a complete lack of judgement to get into a car when drinking. Good judgement is mainly what airline pilots get paid for, and I wouldn't give the guy a job.

Moral indignation over, lets talk about some facts and figures which some of you might find interesting.

Back in my med school days we had several lectures from those who "know about this sort of thing" (a physiology lecturer of mine was involved in the original design of the Lion Intoximeter) and one of them produced a very interesting graph. It showed the blood alcohol levels of drivers who had been killed in Road Traffic Accidents.

The graph was of accident frequency vs blood alcohol level, and looked something like this...

Accident frequency

^...........................*
|..........................*
|.........................*
|........................*
|......................*
|.....................*
|*..................*
|...*.............*
|......*......*
|..........*
|
------------------------------------------------&gt;
0.........1/2.......1....2 (pints of beer eq)


So there was actually a minimum at around 1/2 pint of beer, by the time you got a pint's worth of beer down your neck you were as good/bad as you were when you were sober. At around 2 pints of beer the curve took off exponentiantially as you got completely off your head and completely unable to know what the hell you were really doing.

Apparently you concentrate better with a bit of booze in you which (at lower levels) has a better positive effect on you than the negative effects which are well known effect of even a small amount of our favourite tipple. Large amounts of this 'lack of judgement juice' is what gives us that horrible feeling in the morning (whether to gnaw your arm off or wake the fat trollop you found so attractive the night before).

They also did tests with London bus drivers who were extremely accurate at judging whether they could fit their busses through a gap. They would be asked to drive between traffic cones in a car park and their judgement started to fail significantly at about 1+ pints of beer.

There are moves now to put the legal limit at 50mg/100ml, which makes sense as you are not neccessarily a worse driver at that level. Also, most of us have up to that level of alcohol in our systems due to normal fermentation of sugars in our gut. It would be a real bummer to get busted because you had just had a pint of orange juice. Mormons should take note, we have alcohol in us without boozing it up, and as long as you don't take control of a car there really should be no reason to top it up a bit with several pints of your favourite 5% looney lager juice.

(Edited because graph didn't show)

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</p>

[bluskis]

Curious statistics,or perhaps I misunderstand, but how do you get accident frequencies v alcohol consumption from dead drivers.

[slim_slag]

Curious statistics,or perhaps I misunderstand, but how do you get accident frequencies v alcohol consumption from dead drivers.

Alcohol consumption would be ascertained by taking a blood sample post mortem, counting the bodies would be simple.

I don't remember the details of the statistics as it was around 20 years ago, but I remember the graph shape and the conclusions drawn from it. Consider it anecdotal evidence if you will, but I think the concept is sound and should be understood by most.

I suspect they had a good idea of what the frequency of fatal accidents was for sober people and that was used as a baseline. They could then look at the frequency of the accidents for dead drivers with non-zero alcohol levels, and compare that with what would be expected. The graph came from that.

I guess the bottom line is that at the legal limit as it stands you are measurably impaired and you should not be on the road. A one time thief should not be a police officer ever, a one time child molester should not be a schoolteacher ever, and a one time drunk driver should not be an airline pilot ever, imo of course.

[avrodamo]

I think you made a big mistake in pleading not guilty. The intoximeter is a home office approved piece of eqipment that checks itself before you blow, whilst you blow and after you blow into it. Any errors, and it aborts. The fact that it recorded your readings tend to lead me to belive that it's correct. I don't know what your readings were but basicallly the limit is 35%UG. 35-40.Police don't do anything. 40-50 You can have your sample of breath replaced by one of blood. 50 and over your charged.
The thing is in my experience, and i have 8 years experience people who plead not guilty and subsequently get found guilty get basically hung out to dry. They quite literally throw the book at you. The fact is you know yourself you had too much, and to get the minimum punishment you have to put your hands up and say "Yes. You got me. I was very silly, and i won't do it again". That gives you a reduced sentence. A not guilty plea could quite easily cost you another 12 months ban, and thats a bloody long time.
I do know captain who has been flying for about 8 years. He got caught, and got a ban. It didn't effect his flying career at all, although obviously he was established in his post

Everyone is entitled to make one big mistake. I hope you get it all sorted, and whatever the outcome get what you want with regards to flying. Seems wrong to me to punish you for eternity once you have served your punishment

[Chuck Ellsworth]

slim_slag:

Your statement is rather troubling in that you seem to be convinced no one with a drunk driving record should be allowed to fly for airlines "ever"

I happen to be a self admitted alcoholic who has been convicted of drunk driving in my past.

However many years ago I realized my problem and after many years of trying to quit I addmitted myself to an alcohol addiciton clinic. The cure worked. However to protect myself and my passengers I voluntarily went to Transport Canada and my medical doctor and gave them the medical records from the treatment center. I told them that should I ever take another drink they were to cancel my ALTP. Furthermore I told them they can randomly check me for any drugs or alcohol at any time.

My career has been all I would ever have wished it could be to this day. However had I not faced up to my problem years ago it is unlikely I would even be alive now, nevermind still flying.

Now my question to you is should I be allowed to continue flying for a living with my past history of a drunk driving conviction?

..................
:) The hardest ting about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[slim_slag]

Hi cat_driver. Didn't we meet before on another thread about supercubs? Anyway, my bedside manner was always considered to be somewhat honest by some of my colleagues, and I haven't changed, so....

Now my question to you is should I be allowed to continue flying for a living with my past history of a drunk driving conviction?

No. Not that you got busted.

This all boils down to judgement.

Airline pilots are extremely well respected in our communities, and rightly so. It's not because they can fly and land a plane, that's a learned skill most people can acquire if they have the money. It's because when they sit in their seats, they take ultimate responsibilty for the safety of a load of hardware and the lives sitting within. There are few organisations out there which will turn over that sort of asset to a couple of guys and say 'get on with it'. These people have to be above reproach in the eyes of the law and the travelling public.

However many years ago I realized my problem ......

Now that shows good judgement. If you had not been busted first (which I assume came before you realised you had a problem, otherwise you would not have got caught) I would say you were OK. Actually its a good thing that pilots are not fired for admitting they have a drink/drug problem. I am all for treating people with a problem compassionately, but in this case they have to admit they have a problem in the first place. If pilots were to be too scared to ask for help because they were alcoholics and they feared for their livelihoods, then they would not seek help. Having a responsible drunk in the cockpit who is being watched and treated is the lesser of two evils, IMO.

So, if you get the conviction first, then you should be thrown out - IMO. If you show good judgement and ask for help FIRST, the airline should look after you like a son.

It's all a matter of judgement.

I also still remember those bodies you see.

And I don't for one minute think that either you or the guy who started this thread got caught the first time you endangered yourself and all the other innocents on the roads that night. Yeh, everybody claims they got caught the first time, and they are all full of it.

Should you allow a cop who gets convicted of theft to remain a cop?

There are loads of jobs a convicted drunk can do. They can even become a doctor. Getting a drunk driving conviction is not the end of the world, and never should be, but it shows there is a problem. Some people are just not suitable for all jobs. Sorry to say this so bluntly, but who said life was fair anyway?

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</p>

[bluskis]

Back to statistics.
Poorly remembered statistics, especially without the most important part, namely the baseline figure they are supposed to relate to, are likely to mislead even more than well presented statistics.
Conclusions drawn then become rather less than valid, and arguements based on them rather less convincing.

[Rowley]

[quote]I've seen the cold bodies on the cold mortuary slabs of those innocents killed by drunk drivers. Some of them were really quite pretty people. <hr></blockquote>

How relevant is a persons looks?? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[slim_slag]

bluskis,

What don't you like about the graph? Is it the minimum? Is it the fact that the incidence of traffic accidents is higher when intoxicated?

As I have already said, I don't have the figures, the graph is from memory, you should take it as anecdotal or even a rumour. However I do understand the need to justify anything presented like this, certainly if I was going to publish it in some respected journal - which this board is not.

[Edited to add this]

BUT, Here is a link to a web page which you might find useful.

<a href="http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/driving/s9p2.htm" target="_blank">Accidents, Alcohol and Risk</a>

Here you will find a graph which shows the horrendous increase in relative risk when you are on the UK legal limit and what happens beyond. The minimum is not as pronounced as on my not to scale graph, but if you look at the figures the effect is there. I suspect that my graph (back from my lecture in the early 1980s) was derived from figures from Borkenstein et al. (1964). If you read this paper you will see that the minimum was considered "problematic" but appears to have been found again.

You can do your own literature search from now <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

Rowley

Just a flippant throw away emotional bit. Sorry about that, of course looks don't really matter once you are dead. However I do get sadder when a young person in the prime of their life gets snuffed out more than somebody aged in their 90s. You know, I guess I'm not really sorry about that at all.

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]

[ 10 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</p>