National EU conversion to JAA

[Tor]

I'm in the situation that I have a certificate issued before Juli 1st 1999.

As I would like to apply to companies outside my country I would like to convert to JAA. The CAA of my country have informed that you either need atleast 500 hrs in MPA (which I don't) or otherwise do the ATPL-theory again.

Is it possible to keep your national CPL and also obtain a JAA CPL?

The reason for asking this question is my idea was to hold my national ATPL with my national CPL. In the meantime I could perhaps fly on my JAA CPL in another country and when I would have 500 hrs MPA I could convert the ATPL too.

Have anyone else in a similar situation considered this option?

[patlolo]

yes indeed !

I am in the same situation and Completely stuck !

The CAA answer is : " Yes You can hold both licences "

But the JAA say that one's must choose between a national or a JAR licence ...

What's next ?


cheers

Patlolo

[Tor]

What's next? Good question. How do you know what to do when even the CAA doesn't know these complicated rules.

And why does one have to choose? If I had a FAA certificate and wanted to convert to JAA, I wouldn't have to give up the FAA. Then why must I give up my national? Makes no sense http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 20 March 2001).]

[patlolo]

anybody in the same situation ??

u are welcome to share your ideas about this !!!

[DeltaT]

When I spoke to the CAA on this, when you apply for your JAA licence, you get your UK one posted back as well (assuming you sent it in to convert it!).
So when you front up for your job or your local EU CAA authority, your only going to flash your JAA licence now aren't you.
How are they going to know you have a national one as well?
Who holds the JAA licence database?
Why should they care?

[ronchonner]

whatever you do, they try to send us in a flying school.Do nt you see, that's a big scam and flyings schools, governments have something to win, do you think they(caa) really care of this problem! in fact they do nt give a s...t, cuz you are going to pay anyway!
why do nt you look for a job instead.Even outside of UK or europe.stop to pay, start to fly!!!

[Noggin]

Tor

I don't think you are in the UK. JAR-FCL says that you can only hold one licence. The UK CAA has found for a number of reasons that this is not practical and has allowed people to retain their national licence. If you are not in the UK as I suspect you may not be able to. And if too many people spread it arround the UK may be told not to do it as well.

[patlolo]

the question is :

Can you convert your JAR CPL/IR ( Obtained on the basis of your UK Frozen ATPL)to a JAR ATPL , using your UK ATPL theory credit if you have already converted your national licence ?

( no point of doin' this if we all have to sit the JAR exams to get a JAR ATPL)

This is for those of us who cannot meet the JAR requirement of 500 Hours multipilot ops but who want to convert their national licence to work anywhere else in the EU without the necessity to get a validation of the national licence from the corresponding CAA .( JAR licences are accepted and no validation is required )

Cheers

[RTO]

According to the Swedish CAA the 500 Hour MPA requrement is history in Scandinavia...

[Tor]

I was informed yesterday, by the Danish CAA, that it's not possible to have two national licenses according to the JAA rules (the JAA is regarded as a national). I was also told that the 500 hrs rule is still in force.
Furthermore I was told that initially it was also required that you had JAA ATPL theory just to get a typerating, 500 hrs or not http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif. However, the Scandinavian countries disregarded that requirement and it eventually became a longterm excemption for ll contries - hence the 500 rule today. The Danish CAA would be more that happy if that rule went too, but they told me that some countries strongly opposed.

RTO could you please e-mail me? I would like to know whom you talked to at the Swedish CAA. I want to get to the buttom of this.

[email protected]

[patlolo]

So ... what do we have to do to get this F****g JAR licence ??

I, and I guess , many of us do not want to lose the privileges of our national licence ( especially the frozen ATPL), but need a JAR ticket for employment reasons ...

What do we have to do then if the rules are ... sort of ...non-sense ..?

Long life the JAR's !!... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Cheers

PAt



[This message has been edited by patlolo (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Noggin]

Patiolo

Try reading JAR-FCL It spells it out for you in App 1 to JAR-FCL 1.055. CPL/IR based on national Knowledge convers to JAR-FCL CPL/IR with No ATPL Credit. So if you don't retain your national licence until you get the 500 hors MPA, you will have to take the JAR-FCL ATPL exams. Its quite straight forward. The messsage is: don't convert and retain your credit.

[This message has been edited by Noggin (edited 25 March 2001).]

[Metro Pilot]

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/GID36.pdf

as i understand this document you will be able to retain the ATPL-theory if you are swithing from an national to a JAA-licence
(read note nr 4) but since english isn't my primary language maybe someone else has a point.
Why not transfer the ATPL theory over to the new licence right away ?
Why wait for the 500 hours multi-pilot aeroplane?

[TooHotToFly]

noggin - AIC 47/2000 (White 19) states in point 9 that you can upgrade from a JAR CPL/IR (A) (R) to a JAR ATPL without the need to sit the JAR ATPL exams. The only problem is that you can't convert from a JAR CPL/IR (A) (R) to a UK ATPL.

[patlolo]

hi toohottofly !

What about guys holding a Uk frozen ATPL then ?

Can we convert to a JAR CPL/IR right now and then obtain a FULL JAR ATPL when 1500 hrs including 500 hrs MPA achieved , using the UK ATPL theory ?

if resticted JAR CPL holders can upgrade to a JAR ATPL using UK ATPL knowledge , we , UK frozen ATPL holders should be able to do it as well ??

your opinions guys ?

cheers

[TooHotToFly]

Well I've tracked down noggins reference, its actually Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.005, and that does seem to agree with noggins post. Why does the AIC say that you don't have to do the ATPL theory or am I missing something blindingly obvious.

[liv2fly]

I got a UK CAA frozen ATPL/IR last year, but this license is not recognized by Holland as something you can fly with. Nice, isn't it? So I informed about getting a JAA conversion. CAA said no problem, just cough up the cash for the extra license and you get one. You sign a piece of paper that says you're familiar with JAR FCL, which of course, everyone is, right? I was told that when I got 500 hours MPA as well as MCC, it would convert to a JAA ATPL/IR.

I decided to keep my national license as well, just in case someone at the CAA misinformed me (though that never happens, does it). I would hate to lose the CAA ATPL theory and have to sit the JAR exams just because I chose to give up the British paper.

Funny enough, it's in the same Blue vinyl binder as the national license, just more pages....surprise surprise.

Anyone else been told something different by the CAA?

[Tor]

"Anyone else been told something different by the CAA?"

YES - according to the DCAA you can't have two national licenses and they believe that according to the JARs the JAA certificate is a national license http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[patlolo]

Go for the martian CPL/IR ! :)

The ticket is recognized everywhere in the galaxy !

Let's be serious ... what is the truth about this ? Can we convert or not ?

liv2fly point of view is very sensible and that is the way ( and many of us I reckon )I understand it . But I want to make sure not to lose my UK ATPL theory .

The GID 36 paper is not very clear about it ,and... unless my understanding of the english language is not that good , I believe liv2fly has definitely the correct answer .. !

please share your experience ...

Cheers

pat




[This message has been edited by patlolo (edited 30 March 2001).]

[rolling circle]

You are never going to get a concencus on this one because it is up to each Member State to decide how it will deal with its own licence when a JAA licence is issued. For once, the JAA is absolutely unequivocal on the matter, JAR-FCL 1.065 (d) reads:

An applicant shall hold only one JAR-FCL licence (aeroplane) at any time.

Notice that this refers only to JAR-FCL licences, it doesn't bar you from holding a national licence in addition to a JAR-FCL licence.

The UK CAA have interpreted this as meaning that they do not have to cancel a UK licence when they issue a JAR-FCL one and so pilots obtaining a JAR-FCL CPL, on the basis of a national CPL, in the UK will retain their pre-existing national CPL. Provided that this licence is maintained in accordance with national rules, any attendant ATPL theory credit will remain valid and it will be possible to add a multi-crew type rating to that licence and, on achieving the required experience, to obtain a JAR-FCL CPL(A) with ATPL theory credit in accordance with Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.005 (Case 4).

The above, however, applies only in the UK. Other JAA member states have decided that they will not allow their national licence to be held alongside a JAR-FCL licence and, in the event that a JAR-FCL CPL is obtained on the strength of a national CPL, any attendant ATPL theory credit will be lost. If you hold a non-UK national CPL, you will need to check the rules with the state concerned.

It is always possible, of course, that the JAA will tumble to the UK's liberal interpretation and act to close this particular loophole and so I would not guarantee that the situation will remain the same after July 2002.

[TooHotToFly]

Okay, i've got that bit now, but what about people who have never held a UK CPL i.e. people who missed out on the BCPL deadline and as such did a JAR CPL course and so come out with only a JAR CPL (Restricted), having passed the ATPL exams. Do they lose their credits?

[PanicButton]

Over here in Iceland I will lose my frozen CAA ATPL if I convert to the JAA CPL. The reason being that you can not hold a JAA CPL (new system) and a CAA ATPL (old system) says the local CAA.

[rolling circle]

THTF - If you hold only a JAR-FCL CPL (Restricted), you will have to pass the JAA ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations to qualify for the issue of a JAR ATPL.

[TooHotToFly]

Extract from AIC 47/2000 - 'Arrangement to issue a JAR-FCL CPL (A) Restricted to use in UK registered Aeroplanes'

1st June 2000

Pilots who have passed the UK ATPL (A) examinations and who hold a JAR CPL (A) (R) with Instrument Rating and a valid type rating on a multi-pilot aeroplane will be required to meet the following requirements for the issue of a JAR-FCL ATPL (A):

Achieve 1500 hours as pilot of aeroplanes including: (goes on to list the hours requirements.

12.5 (Case 5) encompasses people who have never held a UK professional licence.

That's it - there is no mention of having to pass the JAR ATPL written exams. Don't the AIC's overide JAR-FCL?

[Matt Black]

Thanks for that THTF - was looking for that on another thread. Didn't spot the little devil at the top of the tiny AIC list.

Ta

[TooHotToFly]

I'm not saying that the information that I've got is the full picture, as noggin and rolling circle are usual right about these things. So could either of you two clarify why my reading of the AIC doesn't agree with what you've said?

GID 36 says that UK ATPL knowledge will be accepted to endorse the first multi-pilot type rating to a JAR CPL/IR so this is how it appears to me:

Holder of a JAR-CPL/IR (R) - remove the restriction by achieving 700 hours hours. You can then use your UK ATPL exam credits to get your first multi-pilot type rating, achieve the 500 hours multi-crew (total 1500) and be issued with a JAR-FCL ATPL, as detailed in AIC 47/2000.

[TooHotToFly]

Rolling Circle? Noggin? Where's Watford been recently anyway?

[robione]

THTF.I missed the d/line for the BCPL,i have UK NATIONAL ATPL CREDITS.I did the JAR/CPL course,and in my hand i hold the said licence.Quoting from the page relating to privalages.
11.TYPE OF LICENCE,DATE OF ISSUE,COUNTRY CODE
CPL[A] 07/03/2001 UK
1X.VALIDITY.THIS LICENCE IS TO BE RE-ISSUED NOT LATER THAN 06/03/2006.

THE PRIVALAGES OF THE LICENCE SHALL BE EXERCISED ONLY IF THE HOLDER HAS A VALID MEDICAL FOR THE REQUIRED PRIVALAGE.

BY APPLICATION OF JAR-FCL 1.015[a]1,THE LICENCE HOLDER IS ENTITLED TO EXERCISE THE PRIVALAGES ON AIRCRAFT REGISTERED IN ANY MEMBER STATE OF THE JIONT AVIATION AUTHORITIES.A DOCUMENT CONTAINING A PHOTO SHALL BE CARRIED FOR THE PURPOSES OF IDENTIFICATION OF THE LICENCE HOLDER.

X11.RT PRIVALAGES.
FRTO LICENCE HELD.

X11.REMARKS
NO ENTRIES.
THIS IS WHERE ANY RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON THE LICENCE.AS U CAN SEE ITS NOT A RESTRICTED LICENCE,BUT A FULL JAR/CPL/A ENTITLING THE HOLDER TO FLY IN ANY JAR COUNTRY.
Its the CAA CPL that is now being restricted.I looked at my friends CAA/CPL/A/,
IR.It bears the following restrictions.
RESTRICTED TO UK REGISTERED AIRCRAFT ONLY.
Now that is a restricted licence.
No i wont lose my UK ATPL CREDITS,but must add an I/R within 3yrs of the date of my last pass in my ATPLs,otherwise i will.Once ive done this my ATPL credits remain valid as long as the IR is valid.I then have to achieve 500hrs multi crew blah blah,to get the ATPL issued.
I have yet to see a JAR/CPL/[R] licence.
ANY ONE GOT ONE ?

[patlolo]

hi !

So I guess everybody in the UK can ask for a JAR licence now with no risk to lose UK ATPL theory credits ! this sounds good to me !

We had so many rumours about this that nobody could say who was right and who was not !

Hope this is the definitive version !!