View Full Version : BM/OATS A BIG MONEY SCAM?
tugtishu
20th Mar 2001, 22:39
I have heard from many numerous independent sources that candidates who have been invited to OATS for BM aptitude tests ,who have paid the fee(75pounds ish), and then NOT turned up due to subsequent job offers from other airlines, still received letters from OATS informing them that "although their results were not up to BM standards they still had the aptitude to be pilots! and OATS's marketing dept(surprise surprise) would be in contact"
Wannabes beware!
G - HIGH
20th Mar 2001, 22:54
I totally agree! I think someone or something is wrong there. I sat the same test in November last year, having paid the £75 fee. (That's like nearly an hour in the air for me!)
Anyway, I have a 1st class Physics degree and these things are my specialty. (sorry, dont mean to brag!) But i thought the tests went rather well, only to be dissapointed by a similar type of letter. Now that you mentioned it, how well do they actually mark these tests, and for that type of money, I'd certainly like some feed back!!
TheNavigator
20th Mar 2001, 23:52
Don't worry guys!
I also received that same letter but even before the aptitude tests. At least I saved the £75. :) Nevertheless, I have shown qualifications that are suitable for becoming a pilot and bla bla ....
G-HIGH, I am starting to think that too much qualifications might be a problem. I also have a first class degree in Electronic engineering and lots of Maths and Physics at university level (from my previous degree studied in Portugal) and currently studying towards a PhD in Engineering and that didn't seem appealing or in accordance with BM standards? So what are BM standards exactly??
I even had a trial flight which at least shows determination ... Well ... I don't know what to say!
TheNavigator
AffirmBrest
21st Mar 2001, 12:53
A lot of folks bemoan the fee for OATS aptitudes - I for one can understand why but I feel you have to look at it in context.
If you apply to BA, how many times do you need to report to Meadowbank before they offer you a job? And how much does it cost each time to get into London before 9am? Shedloads, in my experience.
I bet y'all felt a bit more positive about handing over the £75 before you found out you hadn't got through...not suggesting that you aren't owed some kind of feedback but make sure you aren't just slagging the scheme because you weren't successful.
As for standards - my info is that there are no benchmark pass/fail qualities, rather that you are judged against the other applicants and the 'top' x number go through to the next stage, and so on. Just because you don't get an interview, it doesn't mean you would necessarily be unsuccessful elsewhere or as a pilot per se.
And guys - don't start convincing yourselves that you have 'too many' qualifications (what egos! :)) - many of the successful applicants I know have first class degrees with all the trimmings, but also have a little extra than the occasional trial lesson to show determination (unless you were being sarky..).
From my experience with the Airline for Europe they prefer you to have a life and proof of enthusiasm in flying than just a 1st in Star Trek and a PhD :)
Good luck for the future regardless - hope you can take the banter! (tongue firmly in side of face)
------------------
...proceeding below Decision Height with CAUTION...
They are giving you feedback. They say that you have either the qualifications and attributes to be a pilot or that you have the aptitude depending on what stage of the selection you get to.
Alternatively if you clearly don`t have the aptitude of attributes they will not tell you that you have. OATS prides itself on its high success rates and would not wish to take on people who are likely to fail when the space is limited anyway.
Also don't forget that OATS is a Flight Training School and is in the business of making money. All they are doing is specifically targeting those who have a passion to fly.
MY 13p worth.
[This message has been edited by M13 (edited 21 March 2001).]
RVR800
21st Mar 2001, 17:00
It's just MARKETING
Tick the Box if you dont want the marketing info
They are in it for the money
It's what business is all about
Harves
21st Mar 2001, 19:48
Unless I have missed the point here, surely the point of this thread at the outset was about a bit of a scam being found out.
It was not about a business making money or a school encouraging a keen prospective student. These things are or should go without saying.
From what I gather, OATS are implying that based on the test results, a student who has not made the grade on BM's aptitude test, still has what it takes to be a pilot.
I have always taken the entry requirements to a school with a pinch of salt ( I must say BAe did insist on proof of my qualifications atleast )but this issue is about misleading. Being told that you have what it takes based on those tests when you haven't shown up or before you show up would be plainly dishonest.
In OATS defence, I would hope that these invitations are not based on the Tests but are based on OATS meeting or even interviewing the candidate at some point prior. If this is the case, then as someone who can not claim to be an academic genius, simply someone passionate about flying with a life long dream (in a holding pattern for thirteen years)then I would have to encourage this attitude.
Hopefully, someone can clear this up, because in my view, there is quite a serious difference in these two possibilities.
tugtishu
21st Mar 2001, 20:54
Harves has understood the point . These people who received letters from OATS had never been there , no interview etc.In these letters they say the results of the aptitude tests proved suitability !
Harves
21st Mar 2001, 20:59
No interviews!!!!
If this is the case - a bit naughty I think.
Harves
22nd Mar 2001, 02:46
By the way, may be a stupid question, but not having gone this route, does BM interviw the candidate and then send them to OATS for the aptitude tests? If so why does BM not pay? Sorry this was a bit of an aside.
WAIF-er
22nd Mar 2001, 04:18
Its like football....40 points may be enough to stay in the premiership and avoid relegation one year, but the next season, 40 points may not be good enough and you end up in the first division. It just depends on how well all the other teams perform.
WAIF-er
22nd Mar 2001, 04:24
tugtishu, with regards to your initial statement, its my understanding that anyone who wants to enrol at oats has to have been seen (interviewed if you like) at some point in order to ensure youre up to it.
Wee Weasley Welshman
22nd Mar 2001, 04:30
It is fair enough for colleges to charge for selection - really it means that the sponsoring airline is not willing to meet this cost. I think its not a bad way of weeding out the non-serious dreamers. Plus if you were running an airline would you foot a bill that candidates were willing to pay albeit grudgingly...?
The tests are a tiny but pricey for what they are but certainly they are in the ballpark, better than the old CABAIR ones for the same money and have at least soome validity.
You can't really blame OATS marketing for compiling a database of applicants for direct marketing purposes.
The fact that you get turned down for not meeting the BM standard should not worry you unduly. Look at me. The RAF selected me for Pilot, BA took me to final board but thought I was too domineering on group exercise first time and then too meek the second time, BM I passed one year and failed the next, Aer Lingus I passed all but the final interview board, Air2000 @ CABAIR failed me at the first hurdle as being unsuitable for training and then within 10 months of all that I was teaching Aer Lingus/Airtours cadets to fly and then got into a very respectable jet airline RHS.
Go figure that little lot?!?
Good luck and keep your chin(s) up.
WWW
WWW I have always enjoyed your posts.. Admired your dedication and determination to be an aviator.... There are many of us who have suceeded the hard way. Gone out into the world and roughed it... Your above post has lost me. Why are you not a VC 10 pilot or attached to one in a Tornado, if the RAF selected you as a pilot??? Or Busdriving for BM if you had met their grade?????... " GO " figure!!!!! Congratulations, Cheers and all the best...
Harves
22nd Mar 2001, 14:19
WWW,
Likewise, I always look forward to your posts, but am left wondering if you have also failed to grasp what is being said in the outset of this thread.
Of course a marketing departments job is to contact people on a database, but in no way should it be considered okay to deceive. These candidates have NOT proved suitable to persue a career in aviation based on their aptitutude tests. They may well be suitable but not based on a test that they have never sat. This surely is the point of the thread.
Please do tell me if I am wrong.
Harves
23rd Mar 2001, 12:41
This thread has interested me - sad I know - but has anyone else experienced any other unusual "marketing exercises" from any schools?
Wee Weasley Welshman
23rd Mar 2001, 19:35
Harves - remember that BM might wish to take the top 5 percent from testing or perhaps just the top scoring 30 people. Your suitablility for training however may well be indicated by a score inthe top 10 percent.
The reason I ain't in the RAF is because my Cranwell start got cancelled and I was sent to University all because the damned Berlin Wall fell down (Front Line First, Options For Change).
Such is life,
WWW
Harves
23rd Mar 2001, 21:45
www,
As I have said, that would be great, but these people have not taken any test to be in any percentage, top, middle or bottom.
This is the whole point.
scroggs
24th Mar 2001, 12:52
It would seem to me that anyone who has been told that they 'have the aptitude to be a pilot' without having been tested is, at the very least, being led up the garden path. If they've paid £75 to be told that without being tested, than that must be illegal. If these stories are true, then those concerned would have a reasonable claim against the school for their money back - and the school, I'm sure, would probably pay some compensation as well to avoid the possibility of adverse publicity.
But are the stories true, or has someone an axe to grind......
Harves
26th Mar 2001, 11:32
Well said Scroggs, and indeed I would like to believe that this is untrue.
TrimTab
28th Mar 2001, 01:35
....has anyone thought that the reply sent to the wannabee who didnt sit the tests was purely an administrative error?....just a thought!
From my experience I feel that the tests OATS run are very good. They are run in a very professional way and a full report is available to all who sit the tests....in my opinion far better than the "in house" farce run by Cabair!....what do you get there!...the delight of watching students mark the last paper as you sit the next one!...how professional!
At the end of the day it is likely that most people who apply are likely to have the aptitude to become a pilot...from recollection I think you have to achieve higher scores than a sample of average people from the UK? Perhaps the people who dont get through don't meet the personality profile the airline set down?
From a business point of view who wouldn't take to opportunity of sending self sponsoring information to those unsuccessful uncandidates? I would say it would be worse practice to send it to those who dont have the aptitude to be a pilot.
Perhaps it is those who are unsuccessful in getting through to the next phase who grind most axes?? OATS give the best value for money in my opinion (..test-wise!) :-)
Harves
28th Mar 2001, 20:12
TrimTab,
I think that judging by the different occurences that you are being a little generous, but I do sincerely hope that a school the likes of OATS would not purposely pull a stunt like that.
So maybe I should give them the benefit of the doubt for now.
ronchonner
29th Mar 2001, 05:17
it's ILLEGAL to ask money for an application fee.
some of US airlines do it, here in the US, it s legal but not in EUROPE.
if they charge you for an interview, you can send these people to jail!
check and you will see i m right!
Wee Weasley Welshman
29th Mar 2001, 15:04
As I understand what OATS is doing is testing (say) 100 people for the BM scheme. Offering the (say) best 20 to BM for interview. AND THEN writing to the next best (say) 20 to say - in effect - look you haven't got through to the BM interviews but from your tests we reckon you are fit to enroll on a course yourself with a fair degree of success.
WWW
Harves
29th Mar 2001, 15:24
www
That would indeed seem to be very sensible in principle, but WHAT TESTS? These people receiving the letters for one reason or another, have never even sat the tests and, so I am lead to believe, some have not even been interviewed by anyone.
Buggs
29th Mar 2001, 16:18
I think it would help if Tugtishu could clarify 'many numerous independent sources'. This would sort out whether or not an administrative error occured or whether this was common practice. If the latter is the case then it would appear that a standard letter goes out to everyone who fails to get further with BM purely as a marketing exercise, regardless of their performance. In this way they can generate interest in their own scheme and encourage those people to apply. However unless OATS gets you to pay for the tests that they will put you through after such an application, I don't see how informing a candidate who hasn't passed the aptitude tests, can be beneficial to OATS.
Buggs