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View Full Version : Silk Air (Singapore) to employ ex-Ansett drivers.


Kaptin M
14th Nov 2002, 21:44
Heard a rumour that Silk Air will be taking a number of ex-Ansett A320 people, most of them having gained their commands on that type very late in 1989 or early 1990 :mad:

However the rumour also goes that they have accepted contracts which are CONSIDERABLY less paid than previous ones. (As a matter of "co-incidence", the B737 ex-AN people who went to Sky Net in Japan did the SAME thing). In essence they appear to have accepted the salary conditions paid to the "locals", with one BIG exception - no CPF.

liquid_gold
14th Nov 2002, 21:58
A number of F/O's were employed there in Dec/Jan02. Don't tar everyone with the same brush Kaptin.

TheNightOwl
14th Nov 2002, 22:02
Why the angry emoticon, KaptinM? I can't imagine that any of them did you out of the prospect of employment with SilkAir, or is it just the prospect of ex-AN people being employed which offends you?

Surely it is their decision to either accept or reject the terms offered, why are you so indignant about their terms of remuneration?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl. :confused:

Wizofoz
14th Nov 2002, 22:05
However the rumour also goes that they have accepted contracts which are CONSIDERABLY less paid than previous ones.


As did pilots accepting employment with Virgin Blue!!

Kaptin M
14th Nov 2002, 22:21
It is the "type" of ex-An people :mad: , TNO - I have tried to leave the "s_ _ _" word out, for the time being. Surely you picked up on the DATES mentioned (very late in 1989 or early 1990)?!
The only reason I MIGHT be "indignant about their terms of remuneration" would be because they have AGAIN done overseas that which they did domestically in Oz 13 years ago - LOWERED the conditions of employment for pilots.


The story, in fact, came from a non-Australian who WAS done out of the prospect of a job there by them, however as they (the ex-An people) have accepted what would really have to be considered "breadline/rice bowl" conditions, he reckons they're welcome to it! Hence the :) with the topic subject.

I don't tar everyone with the same brush, liquid_gold. You would have noticed for yourself that the reception YOU receive from many of the long term Aussies is far different to that of the more recent AN arrivals.

As for Wiz's preceding comment - the pilots who went to Virgin Blue were the FIRST on the ONLY contract.
These mates of your's have lowered the bar CONSIDERABLY from previous contracts.

Wizofoz
14th Nov 2002, 22:29
Now, where's that brick wall...:rolleyes:

Oh, and aren't the guys at Sky net on the "First and only contract"?

But that must be different because...err..because... well it just is!

huntsman
14th Nov 2002, 22:41
errr, what's CPF?

Boeing Belly
15th Nov 2002, 00:30
Once again the Singaporeans have demonstrated their complete lack of ability to read a situation. They think that they are being very clever by putting new pilots on National Terms. In fact they are the opposite. Sure, there will be a stampede to get a job, but SilkAir had better install a revolving door, or at least keep the hinges on the current door well and truly oiled. Guys will go there to get current and get payed while they look for a new job. Two F/Os that have been there less that 5 months have interviews with Dragon this month. There's nothing to keep these new guys there. Even the pilots on ex-pat terms aren't safe. What's to stop Silk telling them that they are on National Terms at the end of their (short 2 year) contracts. SQ cocked up ( in my opinion) also when Ansett closed down. They were desperate at that stage for pilots, so what did they do? They took a large number of guys in their late to mid fifties, one was 57, when they could have gotten dozens of guys in their late thirties early forties and had them for twenty years. I think SQ and SilkAir are being very short sighted.

CitizenXX
15th Nov 2002, 01:22
The guys at Skynet are on a decent contract. They're being paid a lot more then at AN in net terms, the company paying their tax, and accommodation.

It would be a damned good income if earned in Australia and the guys had to pay Australian tax and FBT on their accommodation allowance. It's about 2.5 times net what VB Captains get GROSS. In fact, it's quite a bit more net than a 747 Capt would have earned in the old AN. Declare yourself a non resident, come back for less than 60 days a year, and you're rolling in it.

Now that's not bad for a 737 job - anywhere!

Incidentally, Skynet was a start up company, and there was no previous contract. The first eight former AN guys were the first eight Captains in the company, and I hear from one of those in Miyazaki (is that correct spelling) that the management is more than happy with the guys.

Casper
15th Nov 2002, 01:41
Is SilkAir to become known as S#@bAir or HeroAir??

Kaptin M
15th Nov 2002, 01:53
Huntsman, CPF stands for Central Provident Fund, similar to Australia's Superannuation scheme. It used to include the expats as well as the Singaporeans, whereby the employee paid in 15-22% of his salary and the company made an equivalent contribution. Not a bad bonus come end of contract! ;)

Boeing Belly, try reading this thread from the Terms and Endearment forum - it takes only ONE ******** to start making these sorts of offers that Jobsearch has (and I wouldn't be at ALL surprised if he IS one of the Ansett persons going to Silk Air), and Silk Air siezes the opportunity:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69170

Unknowingly :D my reply seems to pretty much sum up what they are(n't) getting.

However, I'm sure that the self-appointed leader of the AN [email protected]_s, who told the group, "If you have any problems, come and see ME. I'll fix it!", will play a major role in protecting their welfare.
A new broom always sweeps clean, they say. I heard that the Singaporean heirachy were VERY impressed with that Aussie's takeover role - NOT!!

CitizenXX - you must be due to take up your position anytime soon.
The AN 737 drivers took jobs WAY below MARKET PRICE for Japan.
Rumour has it that Sky Net are already in financial straights - unable to pay their landing fees at Haneda. Time will tell.

OhBehave
15th Nov 2002, 02:21
Once again the kaptin lets un truths get in the way of a good story.

The CPF will be paid to pilots employed on local conditions, after a period of (i think ) 6 months.

The conditions at MI are superior to VB both for locals and expats.

Boeing Belly
15th Nov 2002, 02:46
I think the guys will feel the pinch when you compare the cost of living in Singapore to Brissie. I believe it's a lot higher in Singapore, especially if you have kids. The other problem will be lower morale of the guys doing the same job for significantly lower money. At first they'll just be relieved to have a job, but I bet that wears off soon and creates bitterness.

meeko
15th Nov 2002, 04:44
Kaptain M

I would be interested to know what you get paid compared to your Japanese counterparts ?
Did you only except the job on the same conditions and pay as the locals? Please dont BS that you get more...
I hear you guys are actually the [email protected]@@S of Japan.
I also hear that one of your mates did his best to stop any S---s getting into Skymark.Mikes brother
Now lets take this one step further. If they cannot get a job with good conditions in a descent airline they will be forced to accept lower pay, therefore weaking everyones position including your own and future employees, [email protected]@@s and [email protected]@@s alike.
But your self interest has be served as usual.
I look forward to your reply.

Are you the self appointed anti [email protected]@b leader ?

Looking at the photo of you I just received which is doing the rounds by email my money is on the other guy.

Kaptin M
15th Nov 2002, 05:37
I would be interested to know what you get paid compared to your Japanese counterparts ? More.
Did you only except the job on the same conditions and pay as the locals? Better Please dont BS that you get more... it doesn't concern me whether you believe me or not :)
I hear you guys are actually the [email protected]@@S of Japan. Really? You would think that they would have let US know that while they were training us - or at LEAST at some time over the past 3 1/2 years....wouldn't you?! They DO, however, know who the [email protected]@@S of Australia are!!".
I also hear that one of your mates did his best to stop any S---s getting into Skymark.Mikes brother Huh? :confused: To the best of my knowledge, everyone who was evaluated for the vacancies passed or failed on his own merits - or otherwise. The decision was made by the Japanese.
Now lets take this one step further. If they cannot get a job with good conditions in a descent airline they will be forced to accept lower pay, therefore weaking everyones position including your own and future employees, [email protected]@@s and [email protected]@@s alike. So you're expecting ME to help the [email protected]@@S get a job. Yeah RIGHT :D ...not bl00dy likely. :eek: [BTW check your spelling, please.] Even if you are not a native English speaker.
But your self interest has be served as usual.What self interset is that?
I look forward to your reply.

Are you the self appointed anti [email protected]@b leader ?Are you theirs'?

Looking at the photo of you I just received which is doing the rounds by email my money is on the other guy.I'm flattered - and you're probably right!

Btw, CitizenXX, has anyone told the Japanese Captains that "The first eight former AN guys were the first eight Captains in the company" yet?
You know, the Chief Pilot, and the ones who line-trained the AN "heroes"?
Ooops, forgot about THEM - minor details eh!! :rolleyes:
I'll bet the Japanese will just LOVE to hear that the Australians taught THEM how to fly in Japan!! :D

milehiklub
15th Nov 2002, 06:36
Great news, for the guys that showed common sense in '89, unlike the idiots that wanted to destroy everything because they could not win, then make others responsible and accountable that had nothing to do with it, and then after the great intellectual industrial ploy that made every sensible person shake their heads in disbelief...they resigned!!!, its anybodys opportunity now for the taking, there is never reasoning with ignorant and stupid people, its time for the bitter and twisted s**b list carriers join the 21st century.

BlueEagle
15th Nov 2002, 09:19
Possible reasons why Silk Air went for the older guys:

1. No long term prospects for younger guys.

2. Silk Air may not have a long term future?

3. They want the additional level of experience to balance the RHS level.

4. Etc. etc.

Boeing Belly
15th Nov 2002, 09:45
I was actually talking about the older guys going to SIA. They'll only get a few years out of some of the ones they've taken. I remember 18 months ago SQ couldn't get anybody to accept a 777 Command based in Brisbane. They ended up getting Pakistani pilots to go there. Assuming the industry recovers one day, SQ might once again have trouble attracting pilots. If they had employed 40 year olds and signed them on long term contracts it may have eased this problem. Having said that, good luck to all those who got jobs with SQ and SilkAir. I've flown with a lot of them and most are good blokes.

Kaptin M
15th Nov 2002, 10:14
" I remember 18 months ago SQ couldn't get anybody to accept a 777 Command based in Brisbane." Because Ansett hadn't collapsed THEN, and the conditions being offered were not sufficient to entice pilots who were prepared to hold out for what they KNEW they were WORTH!
The pilots that EVENTUALLY ended up taking that - and the current Silk Air contracts - are the SAME ones that have shown throughout their "career" that they NEED to grab the FIRST job offer....before other more qualified and proficient apply.

I believe the term is "INSECURITY" - a doubting of one's OWN abilities!
"Self ConfessedAbyssmal aBility! :D

Remember, SQ stands for SINGAPORE Airlines, and perhaps they needed the older recruits to plug a gap from their earlier lack of recruiting.
Additionally, older, short-term pilots work out a helluva lot cheaper! Lah.

divingduck
15th Nov 2002, 11:36
Kaptin M....let he who is without sin and all that.

Spellcheck "abissmal" for me would you? Even if you don't speak English as a first language:p

As for the thread topic...why worry about what someone else in another country gets unless you want the job too?

Market forces and all that, unless you hadn't noticed, there is a worldwide glut of pilots, the companies can afford to offer slightly less and still be swamped with applicants.

Or is this thread just another 89 thread in disguise (albeit thinly veiled)?

Kaptin M
15th Nov 2002, 12:08
"Or is this thread just another 89 thread in disguise (albeit thinly veiled)?

DDuck, please advise the forum of ANY other Aussies you know of - apart from those mentioned - who have recently been advised of their impending employment with Silk Air.

In case YOU hadn't realised, there's also a glut of motor vehicles. But I haven't noticed a remarkable (let alone any) drop in prices there!!

Alotta Fagina
15th Nov 2002, 14:07
Kaptin M,

A glut of motor vehicles. ? . Motor vehicles do not choose where they will be sold or for what price.

What on earth gives you the right to judge what fellow pilots are prepared to fly aircraft for.

Your comments are normally based on ignorance and misinformation but mostly anger as a result of past events.

Your comments on this thread take the cake though.

Settle down. You have no credibility left. Even your "friends" that have circulated your picture are having a giggle at you expense.

oicur12
15th Nov 2002, 14:22
Hey Kap M,


Are you still flying aeromachines or are you residing in a safe, comfortable place surrounded by pretty nurses.

divingduck
15th Nov 2002, 14:54
Hey Kapitan M...

I don't know any Aussies that are working for Silkair...and what's more, I don't give really care one way or the other either!!

I still don't see the relevance of what these guys get paid is.

I have many friends working as controllers all around the world, I don't think any less or more of them knowing how much money they get paid, or where they work.
They were offered the job (as was I) and decided that the renumeration was sufficient to leave Australia and work o/s.

Those that didn't leave Oz, had their reasons, and I don't think any less of them for not going...each to his own.

BTW when there is a glut of oil...the price goes down!

ironbutt57
15th Nov 2002, 15:26
Kaptin M is indeed a lost soul...we all have our crosses to bear..and some bear theirs silently with dignity, others.....:p :p

meeko
15th Nov 2002, 15:26
Kaptain M

I make a couple of points and you respond with one word anwsers and a comment about my first language.
Lets try again.




I am not anyones self appointed leader. But you are.( ten squillon posts on the subject qualifies you without peer)
And it is amusing to me that you cannot even see that .
Wear your badge with pride.


Read my post. I never suggested you HELP anyone get a job but can you see by limiting the choices of a group of pilots whatever their background is only going to erode the conditions of EVERYONE. That is what has effectively happened post 89 with the options to return to Australia not availible to the non returnees.(lets try and move on and not lay any blame)
So we now have Virgin 737 captains on half the money of QF captains .(And remmber not all Qf 737 drivers are [email protected]@@s...)

It is a fact that Mikes brother has stopped screening of certain individuals.That can only damage the future contracts in Japan. Sure it makes you feel all warm and fussy at night but it is doing Sweet F A to help our profession.So these same pilots will happily accept lower wages in Aus,eg Aussie Airlines in a couple of years as the attraction of the big bucks is no longer a factor
The anger that you perpetuate is putting more pressure on wages and conditions.Not the [email protected]@bs. They will work for an airline.You cannot and will not stop that fact. Be it on the same pay as you or less.You are doing more damage than they can ever do.
Try standing back for a moment .
So before you launch into tearing my post apart by cutting and pasting show the pprune world that you have matured some over that last 13 years and learnt the powers of reasoning.




I

ironbutt57
15th Nov 2002, 15:30
That's a pretty tall order Meeko....don't overload the guy:D :D ;)

Kaptin M
15th Nov 2002, 22:41
It is a fact that Mikes brother has stopped screening of certain individuals
RUBBISH!
The FACT is JAPANESE make ALL the decisions in the running of THEIR airlines. So stop oozing your unfounded gossip, meeko.

Another FACT was that the scab pilots in Ansett, under the leadership of Dick Marman, actively worked - for the past 13 years - to keep previously employed (1989) pilots from re-joining Ansett.
Perhaps they THINK that the same tactic is being used against THEM!

It may come as a surprise to you, but ex-Ansett aren't the only ones in the world looking for jobs - however a (small) number of them are "tainted products", and if, as YOU say people were "limiting the choices of a group of pilots" by preventing that group employment, on the world scene their absence would not make an ounce of difference.
There are plenty of others with far greater moral fibre and integrity available.

rectumboy....are any of your posts EVER more than.... pathetic one liners....interspersed with....um....um....:D:p :)

dirtylittlefokker
15th Nov 2002, 22:56
Kaptim M.

Better order a new foofyvalve from stores.

It sounds like you blown yours!!

:)

elektra
15th Nov 2002, 23:14
Gentlemen. this is getting a bit out of hand. Let's tone it down beofre this gets locked.

I must say I've never met Kaptin M, don't know who he is, where he came from or what he eats for breakfast. he writes what he writes and at least leaves no-one in any doubt as to what he thinks.

As for me, I would prefer just to stick to the facts. Which are:

1. In 1989 pilots had a choice (denied to many in the Two Airline Policy years) of whether they wanted to belong to a democratic union or leave it ( and walk away from democratically passed solidarity resolutions).

2. Some pilots decided that for various reasons they would walk away from their former comrades and join forces with others who based their hopes and decisions on a different set of premises.

3. Only the historians will finally work out whether those who left their democratic union behind were ill-led, mis-informed, arrogant, naive or (in one or two isolated cases) greedy. Maybe they were right but the fates conspired against them. We may never know. But as an actual fact we know that those people, and the airline leadership group they joined forces with, somehow managed to be around when 4 carriers, Ansett, Australian, East West and IPEC were dismantled along with many jobs in the tourism industry. I'm sure they did their best to make it all work but it didn't happen.

4. The track record of those pilots is every bit as important to a future employer ( and future fellow employees) as their flying log book and accident history. They have an operating philosophy and set of personal values whose worth to the wider industry is yet to be demonstrated. They may only have been innocent bystanders to the Hawke -led demolition of a once proud industry or they may have been active participants. Who could know? But those who face the prospect of being around them (and their track record) should be aware of the facts.

If Kaptin M has helped bring a few of those facts into the open for dicussion then good luck to him. That is what "FORUM" is about.

That's all.

Kaptin M
16th Nov 2002, 00:17
Thank you, elektra, your observations are quite correct and indisputable from both sides.

Some of the inoccasional one and two liners really do nothing at all to add any substance to this topic. I don't include you there, meeko, although your last post did appear pretty much a repetition of the earlier one.
There is NO organised conspiracy (as there was within Ansett) to prevent pilots involved in the Dispute from being employed. Without a doubt, the employers of '89 pilots - no matter where in the world they are - are aware of WHY we left TAA, Ansett, East-West, and IPEC, and of the group of pilots we refer to as "scabs".
It hasn't been rammed down their throats and I guess is of little significance to management. However the '89 pilots - speaking collectively - have been good employees, and hence 13 years on are still flying.

Those ABOUT to venture into their first job overseas have yet to go through the range of emotions encountered when they realise that IF they leave Australia to take up a flying career, chances are they will NEVER return back there to live, until retirement.
In spite of their experience, they will still be treated as ab initio pilots by their new employer.

Anyway, back to the "core" of this topic.
Can anyone tell me WHY Silk Air offered the ex-AN A320 people only local contracts?
As Boeing Belly pointed out earlier, once the "novelty" of gaining re-employment wears off, the REALITY that they are being paid less than other expats will have them asking themselves WHY they accepted.
Singapore is an expensive place if a non-Singaporean tries to maintain a similar lifestyle to that which he had before.
SQ tried the SAME stunt back in the early '90's - employing young Brits, Australians, Iranians ( :D that's YOU, Glad), and other Europeans - all with bonds of SGD225K for 7 years. Initially they were awestruck with the fact that a major airline had selected them to fly BIG ATPL aircraft, however once that novelty wore off, the "run rate" was quite high.
Quite simply, they couldn't exist on the "local" terms - and many, but not all, were single.

So my question is, "WHY?" :confused:

oicur12
16th Nov 2002, 00:52
"Can anyone tell me WHY Silk Air offered the ex-AN A320 people only local contracts"

Why. Because they could. What do QF, MI, SQ, UA, BA, DL.......the list goes on - have in common. They all offer pilots employment on different pay scales.

BTW Kaptin, why are you so fussed about the pay scales at MI. Are you suggesting pilots should continue in unemployment until a job offer comes along with a big "approved by Kaptin M" stamped on it. How do you explain JR running VB on less than half the salary you and your compatriots went on strike over.

leftfrontside
16th Nov 2002, 02:03
This sort of s#&*t explains why some good mates of mine had difficulty securing a reasonable freight contract in Asia recently they finally got a really good deal with open ended contracts if they wanted it. With a decent salary and allowances.

They finished up in this position because of [email protected]#%B Bastards moving into the freight scene in Aus

Not only have they stuffed up the show for the guys, they are in big strife with CASA. CP is a [email protected]#$b (see lost AAE wheel thread) The joke down south now is that they call the show "THE CROCODILE FARMERS" as they are up to there armpits in crocs.

Once again a good operation stuffed up by "experts"
:mad:

With few exceptions I hope Silk Air and the rest realise what a bunch of snivelling second rate operators they are saddling themselves with. You pay peanuts you get MONKEYS:D :D :D

My time is almost nigh in aviation and it really pissess me that these scum are out there wrecking the industry that has been good to most of us. Arn't they satisfied they stuffed the Oz scene and a once great airline now they want more.

A POX ON THEM ALL :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: