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Anthony Carn
14th Nov 2002, 19:17
Recent threads touch upon the subject of a nuclear World War. If this were to happen, then there's a good chance that life on Earth would cease to exist. In fact, it's possible, perhaps, that virtually all evidence of life on earth would be obliterated.

One then hears stories of discoveries of fossilised items of advaced technological origin e.g. gas turbine blades. Are they the product of a previous version of life on Earth ?

Are we the first humans to have existed, or have there been previous tennants who "progressed" sufficiently to obliterate themselves ? :eek:

twistedenginestarter
14th Nov 2002, 19:28
There's no way evolution would have produced a mess like us twice in a row...

tony draper
14th Nov 2002, 19:51
Not on this world, life on earth started about 3 billion years ago and the fossil record is pretty much understood.
Humans have only been around for a few millions of years but we exsist by altering the envioriment to suit our needs not altering ourselves to suit the envoirement.
Any previous civilisation like ours would have left more evidence I think, nuclear war requires materials that do not exist in nature I think a previous war involving nuclear weapons would leave evidence in the form of exotic waste products.

Aleko
14th Nov 2002, 21:18
Some theory suggests that the universe will not continue to expand for ever. When this expansion ends it will lead to an inward concentration of all the matter in the universe. Eventually the matierial will become so concentrated that it will explode in another big bang.

If this theory is correct there is no reason that the universe we currently live in is not the first. Maybe this is the tenth, fiftieth or thousanth cycle. This means that humans could have existed before although the chances for an exact copy must be tiny. I dont know how to explain fossilised turbine blades.

I always wonder whats around the extent of the universe as it contracts. Beats the hell outta me.:confused:

Spodman
14th Nov 2002, 23:17
We've had meteorites from Mars, why not turbine blades from a particularly bad case of uncontained engine failure. V2 at Mach 2 is buggar on the engines.

Select Zone Five
15th Nov 2002, 10:29
If the universe is infinate; it follows that there must be an infinate occurrence of everything? Does it not?

X-QUORK
15th Nov 2002, 12:14
Anthony,

All sounds a bit far-fetched in my opinion - do you have a link or reference to the fossilised turbine blades story ?

foghorn
15th Nov 2002, 13:17
Humans could well exist in other universes.

However don't forget that time and our physical laws were created at the big bang, therfore are likely to be unique to our universe. On top of this our universe is completely self-contained, therefore there is no way of us ever obtaining evidence of other universes, of communicating with them or travelling to them, therefore the existence of other universes is more a philosophical moot-point than science.

Select Zone Five - careful with your infinities there, the universe is indeed infinite, but it contains a finite amount of matter and energy.

On to the main topic, I'm with drapes, I can't see how an species could have existed on Earth and manipulated its environment to the degree that humans have, and not have left a record.

So the question becomes, is large-scale manipulation of the environment a necessary by-product of achieving our level of intelligence and supremacy in the animal kingdom, or is it just peculiar to human beings? Could similarly intelligent life have evolved and thrived without such manipulation?

And if the latter, doesn't this nullify one of the central tenets of the SETI programme, that intelligent life is likely to have developed technology (specifically electromagnetic radiating technology) in the way that humans have?

Anthony Carn
15th Nov 2002, 20:15
X-QUORK

To answer as best I can, the original thread question arose out of a.........

Google Advanced - all of the words - evidence past civilisations

.............and a few hours of study, plus discussions with friends and colleagues.

Some of the links I saved are:-

www.nexusmagazine.com/ancatomicwar1.html
www.nexusmagazine.com/ancatomicwar2.html
www.originaldissent.com/ljg050802.html
There's lots more in there.

Seemed to me to be an interesting concept which I felt was worth raising. :)

tony draper
15th Nov 2002, 20:19
I believe Neville Shute wrote a book based on this premise called THE TIME BEFORE THIS, quite a good read as I recal from a chap who didn't normaly write science fiction.

Anthony Carn
15th Nov 2002, 20:58
"The Time Before This" - Nicholas Monsarrat ( of "The Cruel Sea" fame ! ). :)

tony draper
15th Nov 2002, 22:04
Yup Anthony, thank you, its about forty years since I read the book, I just remembered it wasn't someone noted for science fiction, I was reading quite a few Neville Shutes at that time, so my mistake. ;)

Caslance
16th Nov 2002, 00:16
There may very well have been other types of civilisation before the dawn of humanity, but they would have evolved from a very different set of circumstances from those that spawned our species since the Third Rock from the Sun was a very different place in those days.

It's highly unlikely that they would have been human and, assuming that they were totally alien to us, perhaps even less likely that we would recognise any traces of their existence that remain today.

Blacksheep
16th Nov 2002, 03:03
There are lots of ancient fossilized turbine blades around. They are mostly to be found in Dart engines.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

pigboat
16th Nov 2002, 04:16
I resent that remark!!:D

Gog
16th Nov 2002, 11:45
seti is a search for alien inteligence ?
What about a search for human inteligence ?

Look at what some people and groups will do to get further up these meaningless rankings.
Stealth installs
cracks
Groups recruiting members with large totals...
Theres even been talk of people trying to auction their units.

Wouldn't supprise me if the whole thing was some sort of social experiment.
:p

str12
16th Nov 2002, 13:10
Yes, the universe is infinite, just as it says on the label.

Einstein et al theorise that wouthout matter time doesn't exist, if this is true, travelling out past the boundaries of our universe means you get to a place where time doesn't exist therefore, you couldn't get there in the first place.

Of course, this doesn't account for parallel universe theories...

flower
16th Nov 2002, 18:54
Everyday the boundaries of our knowledge get pushed that little bit further out, we do not yet fully understand our history or origin. It is therefore ignorant to assume that we may not have existed on this planet in a highly advanced civilisation prior to what is currently accepted as the start of civilisation.

Catestrophic natural disasters happened. We do know that geological evidence proves it, who knows if it didn't wipe out traces of prior human existance.

I will keep an open mind on the subject until it can be absolutely proved otherwise.

SKYWOLF
17th Nov 2002, 00:30
I agree, there could have been a nuclear war. That would explain Mars. You know, the face. There may have been an intelligent race there and then they came to Earth to start it all again, but they did not learn from there mistakes.

What about David Ike. He believes that the Royal Family are blood sucking lizards. How could such a high profile sports presenter lose his head like that?
Or did he?
Is there any truth to it?