Not even Gandalf could conjure up a job with a Frozen ATPL

[spang]

Majority or Minority

I finished from Oxford in July Atpl/Mcc. Top school, top grades, top "war stories" from the ex-RAF pilots, 1st time passes all in good time, 14 months.

Things started well, six months of optimism turning every stone worldwide, plenty of application forms from airlines large and small. Yes actually got an interview with a major, soon after 11/9. Lost out to experience...(damn)

Not BACE, although they did graciously call to apologise for cancelling my interviews, when the BA mainline cadet secondment program knocked out all the forseeable vacancies.

(NB Wiping out the tradtional training ground)

Since then of course, more and more experienced pilots are looking for work. One by one the leads have dried up.

Frozen ATPLers fulltime approved school, trained with and whipped BA, BMI, ETC... "average" students.

Sorry no dice, come back with 1500hrs min. on type.

Well, I can hear you saying it won’t be me I'm smarter more hard working.

Thats exactly what I was thinking when I read these pages. Boy oh boy did I ever think I would be writing in this column.

No... I dont have anything missing. I'm connected to upto my eyeball in the industry, recommendations coming out of my ....
Aswell as a degree background, honourable, genuine well liked (I think).

The reality is there is very very little recruitment at the moment and that is that!
That includes instructing I've been out there looking.
Yep to get rated no sweat, £5K to £7K. Jobs very few, infact blackbushe have just released 10 experienced guys and girls into the small market. Theres no money in it unless Mum&Dad can support.

Oh one ray of hope Helicopters, apparently there are jobs...

My wallet can only just hold out for the Ryan Air Deal(£15K) and thats it for the time.

£75K of all my own hard earned money on hold plus another £15K if I'm lucky. oh and half wages HA,HA....

"Being A Pilot isnt Working for a Living"

How ironic, I missed the ambiguity, didnt realise it was a joke.

At present could be truer, Your going to have to have a second income if you think you can afford to rent a flat or pay a mortgage... Errr Dad can I have a word? I wish!

Maybe I can get my old job back, fingers crossed and tread water until the tide rises.

QUESTION: If I could have forseen this situation would I have not trained. No I love flying, we all do and one day someone is going to pay me to do it!

GOOD LUCK my intrepid friends one day we will laugh about all this from FL390...

For now, I am just stepping outside, I maybe sometime... (Only Joking)

Spangler

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

That is an excellent post my friend. I also know of several people, many good friends, who have very similar stories to tell at present.

Nobody has been getting jobs out of schools for nie on 6 months now. It will be another 6 before they do. In that time the schools will have put out about 500 half way decent graduates. It will take a good 18 months recruiting to soak that lot up. Ergo things will not return to a 'healthy' state of hiring for 2 years. REGARDLESS of the fact that the industry is going to have a lighter recession than in 1991 (fingers crossed that Kashmir isn't turned into an attractive piece of Glassware in the coming weeks..).

Stir into the pot all the pilots and trainee pilots in the JAR member states looking for work who speak English and are willing to relocate and all is not well in the Wannabe garden at present.

Best avoid entering this particular CB if your circumstances allow and do something else for a while I guess.

WWW

[Quidditch Captain]

Well if Gandalf can't do it, then its going to have to be Harry Potter then....(!)

Great post - completely sums up my feelings on the subject. The only real truth right now is that if one doesn't train, then one definitely doesn't get a job!

I know its a cliche, but here's a saying I particularly like:

"Those who believe they can, and those who believe they can't, are usually both correct"

Good luck to all - stick with it!

[Polar_stereographic]

Lots of doom and gloom around as usual on this site. Might be worth having a read on:

<a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017225" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=017225</a>

I'm starting to hear more encouraging noises from various people I know on the other side. My hunch is things will pick up rather sooner than most predict.

One thing you can be sure of, those with a positive outlook will get there, those without it may or may not.

Enjoy GA flying in the mean time.

PS

[ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</p>

[Obi Wan Kirk]

Try Gandalf Airlines, they may hire you!

[Strangely Brown]

At least spang only finished in July this year.

I finished in May 2000. First time passes in everything execept electrics. That was 16 months prior to Sept 11th when recruiting was supposed to be in a reasonable state. Repeating what spang has said, I'm sure the reply will be 'you didn't try hard enough'. All I can say to that is don't patronise me.

I will get there. I have 500+ hours now and fly regularly (as often as I can afford) and continue to network in addition to sending CV's and following up with phonecalls.

I certainly have no regrets - you don't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. However I would only advise anyone to start training now if it isn't your money

[onehunga]

When I was in the states recently hour building the school there told me about multi jobs for small US charter ops. The deal is that you pay (they estimated 20USD per hour) to fly in the right hand seat logging turbo prop time and the airline benefits by not having to employ first officers. The school reckons that generally you get up to 100 hours a month this way and it would put you way ahead in the recruiting line of the other wannabees.

Also I dont think that visas are to much of a problem since technically you arent employed.

I have no idea of any names of these airlines but I am sure that a search of the net could yield something?

[RVR800]

The thing that is killing UK wannabe
prospects the most is the double wammy
effect of JAR-FCL implementation.

i.e.

1. Import of our type rated colleagues from the EU
2. Increased cost and difficulty

I reckon the No. of people doing this will drop like a stone after June 2002 - it's already killing the training industry e.g. SFT PPSC etc ..

Also..

I wonder whether, after the downturn, our loss making flag carriers will still elect to pay for training or adopt the low-cost airline approach i.e. rely on industry fall-out and self sponsored
candidates to arrive fully trained...

[spang]

Good to hear you've got a shot. If you could pass on the details of your club I would be most grateful.
Lets hope its not just talk. Its amazing how the conversation turns when you say to your local club, right when can I join. Look at the expression on the other instructers faces when you want a slice of their pie rather than feeding it.
Dont get me wrong this my experience. Study hard you'll need those big guns once you're out.
I'm well into the hundreds of e-mails and letters now and still merrily printing.

I'm am an optimist and a realist, my shared experience is your gain and visa versa. If I'm loosing height I cant bull.... myself or you.

Why dont you, when the studyings done, do what I did find previous members of your school and ask them about how they made it.

The moment that call comes I'm going to "foghorn" this forum and "spill the beans."

Chin up chums
Happy Hunting
Spangler

[eagerbeaver]

Spang, ex OATS myself, nice to see someone aint winging about the whole situation there and in the aviation world in general. I have become a little lazy with applications and so forth because of so many no thankyous'. How you finding things, you obviously are keeping the pressure on, let me know.
Good luck and keep smiling only good things can happen.

P.S what course were you on? mail me.

ta ta

[climbs like a dog]

All I can say is just hang in there. I spent 5 years looking for the job. The market was being talked up all the time and just as it looked more positive another airline would fold. There is no substitute for getting your arze in the air and building hours as an instructor or some other flying job. With 1000+ hours you are in a much better position as a pilot looking for their first airline job.

Best of luck.

[tailscrape]

Sorry to hear the doom and gloom is still not lifting. I really am.

Onehunga, interesting post. I would however say that I find anyone PAYING to sit in a seat whilst flying for a commercial outfit absolutely abhorrent. I know it is to gain experience, but is it worthwhile experience?

Without a type rating on a Twin Turbo Multi Crew aircraft, I am not sure if it is......If it is a single pilot aircraft, what is the point in logging p2 hours on it? Worthless I think?? Another money making idea I guess......

I find that depressing for you all. I hope that we all come out of this o.k.

Best rgds.

[mad_jock]

Tailscape the US run different rules to JAR.

The co-pilot on multipilot planes don't need type ratings. And it is very common pilots paying or working for nothing to build twin time.

And as for logging time some of the stuff they do is incredible. I have seen 3 people logging time in an Otter. The 2 pilots and a MEI in the back don't know how legal it is in the US but alot seem to be doing it.


MJ

[slim_slag]

MadJock/Tailscape

Here is an outfit offering positions where you effectively pay for multi time.

<a href="http://www.pacificwings.com/First%20Officer%20Jobs.htm" target="_blank">Pacific Wings</a>

Its a Cessna 402 so doesn't burn jetA, but in the good old days in the US that didn't matter if you wanted a job with the US commuters, 1000 hours total and 100 multi was what they were looking for.

So if you believe their figures, and I have no reason not to, you can/could pick up multi time for around $10 per hour. Lots of people don't like this, but it's a free country and you don't have to apply for the job if you don't like it.

As was stated, US rules for logging PIC are different from the UK. If you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft you are rated in you can log it. Most kids joining the commuters with their 100 multi hours would get most of them as instructing time. As their student probably needs 25 hours in type to rent any plane, the instuctor is usually just along for the ride for maybe 15 hours of that and will be lucky to touch the controls.

So you could argue that somebody coming from Pacific Wings was more experienced that the guys coming out of the flight schools. I'm not sure how they get around the fact that at 402 is a single pilot aircraft, I need to look at the FARs or talk to some of my Part 135 buddies.

[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: slim_slag ]</p>

[tailscrape]

Mad Jock/Slim slag,

Not knocking the idea, just I am unfamiliar with it. My response was from a UK perspective.

I keep forgetting this PPRUNE site is on the WORLDWIDE web. My apologies.

I am fortunate to have a jet type on my licence in Europe.

Good luck.

[GBFEE]

Spang, thank you for the excellent post, and encouraging an interesting discussion.

I completed my training in January 2000 at SFT in Bournemouth with first time passes in all subjects and flight tests.

Like many, the early days of job hunting were filled with optimism and excitement, eagerly awaiting the post for an interview offer, or the phone to ring. Things gradually changed as each reply wanted experience on type, more hours or many letters were not responded to.

Having been away from PPRUNE for while and unable to see that many other people are experiencing the same difficulties, it was easy to become both self critical and downhearted. Its good to be back again, and to hear that I am not alone in the hard task of finding that elusive first job.

I will get there, I have no doubts, I love flying with a passion that I am sure all who read this will understand.

I wish you all the very best of luck and if you hear of anything on the horizon, drop me a line.
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[spang]

Thanks for really pleasent responses.

It does ease the pressure, when ones shares the struggle.

I think folk on their way through training envisage the FATPL as the war won, I did, when infact its only one battle.

I liked a piece of advice I received recently from a, was in my position, FO friend. "Try to be patient and ride the growing pains."

QUESTION TO THE RECENTLY EMPLOYED.

What made the difference in your case?

Blinding sim ride, spot on technical knowledge, Ferraris all round, Uncle Bobs the CP?

Especially like to hear from Ryanair newbees

Cheers
Spangler

[Firestorm]

I finished my CPL/IR about 9 years ago. At that time the industry was in a much deeper recession than now, and in all it took me the best part of 4 years to get my first job. And that was at a parachute club for £120 per week (before about £55 of deductions) to be treated like **** and all that routine.

But the line that 'you've got to be in it to win it' will always be true. Within 3 months of living in squalor in Kent I got an interview to go and do some proper flying. I am now with a UK regional, and very happy indeed. I will never forget the stress, the cr@p jobs I took so that I would have minimum notice to give on the off chance that Dickie Branson recognised my potential and bothered to pick up the phone (he still hasn't), and the tears and broken relationships that were all attributale to my stuboness to give in.

And was it worth it? I am sorry to all those to whom I was rude and intolerant and all that, and eternally grateful to those who supported me emotionally and finacially. And eternally endebted to them. Yes, it was worth it: and I think all those who are close to me would agree, and I know that hey are chuffed for me.

There are a few guys who recently joined our company who I heard moaning that they'd had to wait 3 or 4 months to get their first job. I thought 'Boo hoo. You don't know how lucky you are.' And they don't. And I am dead chuffed for them. That's the way it should be.

To all of you that don't have their luck, stick at it. Take those ****ty jobs, go back to your old industry, keep applying, keep phoning, go and visit the airlines that you want to work for, be realistic. You will not get the right seat in a 747-400 as your first type, but you might get an F27 doing night freight or something.

This is just the best industry to work in, everyone has a tale to tell. Just take this opportunity to make yours one of harder hardship and worse deprivation than mine, and I'll see you on the seniority list...

[SuperTed]

Firestorm,

Interesting story thanks! What kind of jobs did you do in that 4 year period whilst you were waiting? How old were you when you got your first job also?

Thanks
ST

[Firestorm]

Hi, ST,

I worked in shops (one even tried to suggest that I should enroll to take the NVQ scheme for shop assistants - he was one of those people I was rude to).

Most lucrative was doing promotion agency site and event work. It's the kind of job where you see people outside supermarkets serving up food samples and the like. It was quite enjoyable as there are lots of not too shabby totty doing the same job. And then I worked for the production company that made and devised the marketing events. Which was also quite interesting. I had no previous experience of marketing at all, or any real desire to stay in it for too long. But the boss at the company was good enough to understand that I might leave at very short notice to fly aeroplanes for a living. I worked for him and his agency for about 2 years in all....

I was 31 when I went to the parachute club and 32 when I went to my first commercial job (in Africa by (mis)fortune), and a staggering 35 (with 1500 TT and 1000 turbine) when I got my first UK airline job (turbo-props, but I actually love it).

I don't know how to say don't give up too soon, but don't ruin your life now because of what you want. I guess it could apply to all sorts of ambitions and dreams, and I am very lucky with my family. Somehow I got through it and got the outcome that I wanted.

All I can say, is that persistance and patience pay. Dropping in on some airlines wil almost certainly bear fruit (with some it will get you nowhere, but will not damage your chances) and who knows, it might just be the lucky day that the ops staff were going to advertise in Flight International and you saved them £50 and the attendant balls ache.

It will happen if you want to make it happen, eventually.

Good luck to all you Wannabees. I've been there and don't want to go back. But you have my sympathy and support, and I hope it happens for you as soon as possible.

The only thing I might have done differently was to swallow my pride and have bee an instructor (and it can come in dead handy later in your career if you want to become a training captain).