VFR in IMC

[High Altitude]

I pose a question.

Flying into Darwin from FL160 at 10,000 you have to hold for VFR opposite direction traffic @9500', you pass and are then cleared to a lower level, you break out of IMC thru 7500'. Now granted it is only isolated to broken cloud with the odd big cloud at the moment but this just does not compute.

Yes a CAIR can be put in and will be, only problem don't have the call sign.

Now this is second hand info as I wasn't flying but my thoughts are that this forum is a good place to air a bit of an airmanship concern. Yes there is special VFR and what they call Territory VFR but flying VFR in IMC is a no no and in bl**dy controlled airspace to boot!!!

As I said it may not be correct but it should be a lesson to any of the new wet season Darwin pilots.

Reminds me of years ago when a LANCE was overhead the field VFR @300' and could not sight the runway... funnily enough nothing ever happend over that one either.

HAPPY FLYING...

HA.

[Hugh Jarse]

H.A. even if the other A/C was on an exact opposite track, how can you be sure it was VFR in IMC?

ATC would not have cleared the higher A/C to descend until the required seperation was achieved. Allow approx 8 extra track miles for the descent from 10000 to 7500 (based on a 3:1 profile) plus the seperation standard applied by ATC and it makes an accurate cloud assessment VERY subjective.

Why anyone would bother putting in a CAIR just because they were held up due traffic is beyond me.... Jeez, ATSB would have to hire several more investigators (or whatever they're called) just for Sydney alone if I put in a CAIR every time I was held up :D

Besides, I assume that the A/C that was descending was either a turboprop or jet. Most turboprops have the flexibility to regain the standard descent profile under such circumstances.

Merely a test of one's skill.............

[SM4 Pirate]

HA,

HJ raises a valid point; especially about exactly opposite direction; Maybe the other traffic was opposite direction 1 mile West/East (etc.) of your mate, still a restriction but quite possibly well clear of the white puffy stuff. Minimum separation required was either 3 or 5 miles by radar; on tangental tracks you could be almost 5 miles away but still be causing a restriction in regard to the application of 5 miles radar separation, that far away can be a whole different weather system, especially in Darwin.

Assuming it was opposite direction; could have been crossing or slower and your mate was out running it...?

If it was a blanket, you could make the assumption(s) that you have, but broken or scattered; I'd not bother even putting pen to paper; unless you saw his wing sticking out of a cloud; even then where would it go, he says I was complient with VFR ops, you say...?

But I take your original point that, sadly, there are still cowboys flying.

Bottle of Rum

[404 Titan]

HJ & SM4,

I don’t think the CAIR report relates to being held up by lower opposite direction traffic. It relates to the non-professional and illegal practice of some VFR pilots to operate in IMC when the conditions preclude them operating VFR or even Special VFR. Now as to whether this lighty was in fact in IMC, only the pilot concerned can tell us. If the conditions were isolated cloud, then it is doubtful, but if the conditions were broken then I would suggest to HA to definitely submit a CAIR report so the book can be thrown at this individual.

[snarek]

Now granted it is only isolated to broken cloud with the odd big cloud at the moment but this just does not compute.

In the buildup it is quite possible to fly VMC at most levels with the odd dogleg. ******ed if I'd ever fly IMC when I didn't have to with all those nasty CuNim lurking around!!! :eek:

Now I certainly don't subscribe to any of the nasty things said about NAC here, but mate, are you SURE this guy was IMC. It doesn't appear so. So why a CAIR report which may cause a lot of grief over a potentially false accusation. Is it cos you were held up for a minute or so??? :rolleyes:

In my experience, frivilous CAIR reports are often follwed by counter CAIR reports 'to get even' and then everyone sqabbles with everyone else!!! :mad:

What's the point??? :confused:

[High Altitude]

The point is to raise attention to newbies in this part of the world that think they can do what ever they want. We were not fussed at being held up as we weren't held up.

Yes you can divert around the cloud in the wet, why fly IMC in the wet and end up like the ole twisted conquest. You just have to be smarter flying in the wet, a radar helps but really common sense prevails. Yes I will duck and hide now as those who know me know i'm a seagull in the wet at times... Mind you the conditions for flying far out weigh the dry, unlimited vis when not in the white or black stuff and the countyside is spectacular, some of the falls in Arnhemland are stuning (have a look at Cuthbertson in the wet).

My point is that it is DANGEROUS to even poke around the clouds if you are not IFR, ie broken deck of clouds plane flying IMC one direction in a straight line, plane b cruisng around the clounds with 30deg deviations bang no more 2 planes.

AGAIN the point I raise is what is SPECIAL VFR??????? How many actually know the requirements?

Besides submitting CAIR reports do absolutley nothing otherwise the pilot in my last paragraph (first post) wouldn't have a liscense...

HA

p.s. Yes the only one who knows if he was IMC is the pilot... Now have you been busted?

[B767MAD]

Special VFR as per AIP.

By Day when VMC does not exist, the ATC unit responsible for a CTR may issue , at pilot request , a Special VFR clearance for flight in the CTR , or in the CTA next to the CTR for the purposes of entering or leaving the CTR , provided Special VFR will not unduly delay an IFR flight.

When your Operatig Special VFR you must ensure;
1.flight is conducted clear of cloud
2.viz is not less than : a. a/c 3000m b. Helo's 800m , c. Balloons 100m below 500ft agl , 3000m at or above 500ft agl.
3. The flight is conducted with regards to CAR 157 - Low Flying.
4. Special VFR is NOT allowed in Class E airspace.

Hoep that helps ... found in AIP ENR 1.2-1.

76

[snarek]

HA

Fair point then.

I do understand your concern for the 'Newbies'. I once flew in a mixmaster out to somewhere south of Oenpelli in my Telecom days. I had been flying out there for quite a while, but a certain ex-Telecom employee (who we will just call Biggles) stuffed it up for everyone, so we had to use charter.

Now imagine my surprise when this fresh faced young Melbournian thought it was quite OK to climb through some darkish bumpy looking Stratus in an obviously VFR (and barely airworthy!!!) 337.

Gave him a whole new concept of PIC :D

[BackdoorBandit]

flying VFR in IMC is a no no and in bl**dy controlled airspace to boot!!!

I would have thought that CTA was the safest place to do this, assuming a radar environment. Mate you have atc radar protection and separation between you and vfr a/c, so what is the problem. A CAIR would be nothing but a waste of space! But if you need to feel 'holyer than thou', then I guess you must do what you must do.

[High Altitude]

BDB - Think about your post.....

Its not just about safety fool its about legalities... What you are saying is its alright to break the law if you don't get caught???

[Binoculars]

Proving somebody is operating in IMC is impossible. Your CAIR report would achieve nothing even if your suspicions were right.

However It surprises me that one aspect hasn't been mentioned, namely the distinct possibility that the pilot was in IMC but wasn't unsafe.

ATC's see examples every day of operations which are quite obviously IFR planning VFR to avoid enroute charges. They make no pretence, they just blast off straight into cloud on climb to their VFR level. When we run a regime that is only interested in revenue raising, the results are inevitable.

[I Fly]

Some time ago when we still had Flight service a VFR aircraft broadcast "all stations Emerald ABC is conducting a practise NDB approach. The Flight service called him "ABC be advised a F27 just did a practise approach and is now on his way to his practise alternate". There are always some more interested in not getting caught by CASA instead of worrying about betting caught by cumulus granitus or their pilot mates. Put a CAIR in, they might not do anything but when they have a lot of them they WILL HAVE TO do something. It's strange on how IFR pilots are always trying to stay out of cloud. Do they have too much training?

[thinking pilot]

HA has informed his pilots in the past to file VFR plans to save money in enroute charges. How do I know, I worked for the guy thats how. Negative posts about HA are common because he is his own worst enemy. Just remember S..... we have intimate knowledge of your behaviour.

[BackdoorBandit]

I don't and never will give a toss about legalities in my day to day flying. You use legalities to keep your butt out of legal strife, and yes a lot of things are all right if you don't get caught. You use airmanship to stop yourself from getting killed. Is there a difference? You bet your @rse there is, however it depends on whether you want to be legal or safe.

Put it this way, I know I would be a lot safer flying VFR in IMC in CTA, than I am doing a circling approach at night into some horror dark hole of an aerodrome.

One is legal and unsafe, the other is illegal and safe.

Now atc normally have a pretty good idea of what the weather is doing and (in my experience) apply suitable self imposed restrictions on aircraft operating at the time. Now if you are lacking in the the understanding of this (because I am obviously just another cowboy) then tell everyone about it, I am sure they will understand!

Seems to me you are blowing your trumpet, to tell everyone how safe you are going to be in the up and coming wet season.

WELL GOOD ON YA!

This was edited to say to HA thanks for calling me a fool! Next time I'm in Darwin I will buy some glue and use my imagination.:D

[Gnd Power]

Back Door Bandit

Yours is quite a frightening post.

I bet;

I don't and never will give a toss about legalities in my day to day flying

never forms part of your job application or passenger brief.

I can quite imagine what would happen if it did.

Maybe you should consider a change of occupation, perhaps one in the criminal world may fit in better with your philosophy than aviation does.

[High Altitude]

BDB maybe I was a bit harsh with the comment I don't mean personal attacks, I don't like your attitude though.

It is about safety and legalities.... Frankly if i'm flying IFR I want to know there are no hidden things in the clouds. Likewise when I fly around VFR I stay VFR, now it might get challenging up here but you can do it...

Now whats wrong with issuing a directive to flight plan and FLY VFR??? if its VFR???

[I Fly]

I would like to ask BackdoorBandit whether s/he considers situational awareness as a legality or airmanship. ATC separates IFR from IFR by 1000' vertically because they can't see one another. VFR it's 500' because they can see one another. Are you quite happy with a VFR pilot in cloud between you and me? I CERTAINLY AM NOT!
Perhaps High Altitude could have asked ATC to confirm the other aircraft was VFR with all that cloud around.

[Sheep Guts]

So BackdoorBandikoot what do you do when exiting Your Safe Radar CTA Bubble, in IMC whilst on a VFR plan? I suppose you would descend or climb until VFR conditions prevail. I suppose you could get away with it in the NT, but down south or overseas with a bit of terrain and lowest safes to deal with, I bet you Pucker valve would be working. WOULD YOU BROADCAST YOUR INTENTIONS? I hope so!

You sound like you have a serious case of pressonitis mate. In aviation, its strongly adviseable to have everything going your way, so when it all turns to sh**T you have half a chance, not no chance at all!!!!!:mad:

As for VFR plans and then upgrading to IFR if required, I can see no problem, as long as contingency fuel is carried.

BDB it will all catch up with you soon. When it does, I hope I m on my Patio having a few tubes, rather than near your airspace!!!:rolleyes::(

[Wagit]

Why are you all worried about VFR aircraft in IMC for

Just wait until dickspace hits and you are in IMC in G airspace with no direct traffic information.

You won't know what is there!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hugh Jarse]

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gifhttp://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gifhttp://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif

Of course, everybody knows that the traffic you don't know about or can't see cannot be collided with. :D:D

[OpsNormal]

OK, the cat shall emerge from the bag......

Now, to those of you who have been rather eager to bag a certain (well known) individual and his company, I tend for you this.....

I work for that company that you are so eager to bag. Tonight as I write this, I am sitting on the ground half-way through a charter that should have been fininshed by about 0700 UTC. My pax (who fully expected to be in YBAS tonight) are instead dining at the expense of my company, and are staying in cool/dry accomodation provided for them again by my company.

WHY?

Because my company does not expect me to fly through thunderstorms/IMC/ etc. I called my boss the moment I landed here and told him what the score was. The score is..... I tried. That is all I am asked to do, try. Legally, I cannot complete the flight tonight, so at the moment we sit it out and wait for what tomorrow may bring.

My immediate boss ensures me that the company is behind me 150% percent, and that I have done all that can be expected of me. Even an extremely helpfull bloke way overhead on his way to Cairns (I certainly hope you do read this, for your weather observations for me made it all the easier for me, thank-you so much for your help), had asked ML CEN for a diversion as far as 40nm to the right of track.

Can you knockers now tell me that your arguments hold water (pardon the pun)?

Thanks also to the very helpfull 121.85 ML Cen controller who took the time to help me out and call my boss.

Many thanks,
Dave.

[BackdoorBandit]

I would submit my IFR details on the radio and continue IFR. Pretty damn simple really.

I have done the above numerous times inbound to Bankstown from the west, and the pucker valve didn't even twitch. Cairns and Mackay are another couple places that spring to mind.

Pressonitis, nice catch phrase SheepGuts. Yes I do have that, that is why I change from VFR to IFR when required.

If only life was as simple as flying.

[150Aerobat]

I think HA's point is that he puts flying safely first and fits legality around the reality. Last time I saw, there weren't many lawyers offering advice on how to do a night circling approach into Young. The law might get you into trouble, but it won't get you out of it.

Whilst not advocating VFR in IMC, the VFR pilot flying in IMC in a CTA/R is surely pretty low down on the danger scale. I used to do a bit of VFR flying around Melbourne, and sometimes there'd be a clearly defined area of cloud that to be honest you didn't want to fuss ML ATC about. I definately wouldn't personally climb through solid overcast though.

The guys blasting off into IMC on a VFR plan in class G must surely be the biggest worry. What about class E?

I don't know any ATC people, but I doubt they completely or even partly trust seperation in controlled airspace to the VFR pilot eyesight. When was the last time you heard "ABC, manouvre as required to avoid the Qantas heavy"? I'm pretty sure that that it makes ATC's life easier if you don't request huge diversions off track or altitude because of some puff of cloud.

Still, it's pretty poor airmanship I guess. I think commercial pressure and a busy and mixed-traffic ATC environment have eroded some areas of airmanship.

Someone mentioned that you couldn't get away with this overseas. Not sure specifically where you meant, but in the UK where the "big sky" theory doesn't apply, I've seen heaps of VFR AC fly into IMC. The WX is simply so bad, people are just used to bad weather.

Of course, icing on a VFR plan is pretty hard to explain.