fireman sam...

[satsideways]

Well it seems to me that we have another set of terrorises in our midst, only this time they are wearing firemans uniforms!! How can they say that 11%, which equates to £4300 over the next 2 years is an insult?? Being held to ransome by them is the insult.

Interesting to note that even at their current rate of pay it still exceeds the majority of the servide men and womens wages who are going to cover for them. Maybe we should all strike, and forget that we knew what we were getting into when we joined, and take a leaf out of the firefighters book and hold the country to randsome!

£30,000 a year for a four day week, you are having a laugh! If there are members of the public who die during these strikes the blood will be on the hands of the fire fighters and not the service personnel who are yet again being taken away from their families!!

We all work in the public sector and feel the stress from time to time but I joined to be a part of somthing not for purley monitary gains, take a leaf out of the Glasgow underground and sack the lot of them!!

[Talking Radalt]

Agree whole heartedly.
One ITN report doing the rounds today focused on one firefighter who was striking because on his current wage he "Can't afford to buy his own home, so he and his wife are in welfare housing"

And?!!!!!!:rolleyes:

[Jackonicko]

But short of being a window cleaner, or working in a mine or a quarry, or ....

it's quite dangerous.

And with only 40 people in the queue for every job, it's not like they couldn't be replaced.

And of course a fireman's worth more than a teacher.....

[You want it when?]

11% well aint that a kick in the teeth, in the commercial world we get paycuts.

Good luck to anyone on Fresco, it's a shame that you can't play with the lovely safer red engines that have been bought by the local tax payer.

[DICKY the PIG]

I'm on Op Fresco, and I'm sorry guys I disagree with you all. Having learnt what the fire brigade do,see, and have to put up with day in day out all for £21k a year, I think they really do deserve £30k.
I've heard the ''they don't work every day'' and the ''they spend most of their time sitting around playing cards/snooker etc", but the reality of it is that most of them have secondary jobs to supplement their income, and yes they might spend a lot of time waiting around, but the fact is they're waiting around knowing that at any moment they could be putting their lives at risk, or having to deal with the horrific sights of RTAs etc.
I wonder how we would feel if the powers that be decided to pay us flying pay only when we flew because the rest of the time we're sitting on the ground in the tea bar telling war stories.

[ClearBlueWater]

Go on then Dicky. Surprise me. What do they 'put up with' for 21K a year?

1. They have time for a second job and invariably use that time to earn more money. Many who earn equal or less don't have the opportunity for a second job.

2. It's well established that actually the job's not that dangerous. OK, more dangerous than sitting on a supermarket checkout but at last count I believe it sits at number 23 in the list of dangerous occupations according to official figures.

3. Horrific sights like RTA's are part of the job. As Jackonicko points out there are folks lining up to do this job knowing the sights they will see. These same sights are seen by ambulance workers (on less money), policemen (on a tad more but no chance of asecond income), and doctors (Full consultant NHS pay 63K).

4. Let's pick up on the relative intrinsic 'value' of a firefighter. My perception is that an ambulance worker probably undergoes a similar amount of training and subsequent stress as a firefighter but is on less money. I certainly perceive a policeman's lot to be considerably more onerous and difficult on a daily basis and probably more often more dangerous. On a different level if an NHS consultant earns between 53K and 63K per year (there are opportunities to top this up with private practice but this is not generally the gold mine you might imagine e.g. a senior consultant anaesthetist can earn about an extra 20K - but this requires far more hours a week than a fireman is putting in, and that probably includes his second job). It takes that consultant approximately 15 to 20 years (thats right) to get to the top of his profession and all the way he has to work like **** to get there and has real life saving decisions to make on a daily basis with everyone looking to him for the ultimate decision each and every time. So you reckon a couple of firemen on 30K are worth a consultant on 60K?

Let's face it, it's a basic job worth a standard wage. They should take the 11% and shut up.

[Grob Driver]

Sorry, but £21k is not a bad wage by any means. Maybe not the best wage, but were talking about a starting salary here.

As for it being dangerous…. Er, sorry… you signed up for it Mr fireman…. Oh but sir, I didn’t know I’d have to go inside the building…. I don’t think so!!

The firemen should be happy with 11%. And get on with what they do best. I’ve just been told I’m on standby tomorrow and Thursday… I don’t mind that. I’m happy to help. However if I end up at an RTA with someone trapped in a burning car and no fireman to help, (god forbid I hope this doesn’t happen), I’ll never forgive them.

Cheers

Grob Driver

[satsideways]

Well that will be that then.....the strikes are on. It comes as no surprise really when you consider the media coverage over the last 48 hrs or so, but I do find Gilchrists spoutings difficult to swallow.

To stand on the steps, avoid questions from the journalists about the Iraq situation and how this might affect and indeed endager us all was squirm provoking. 4% is an insult, infact it's dirisory, he said....nonsense! I wonder if closer to the truth was the fact that this is their last opportunity to strike before they would require a new ballot?? Or am I just being suspicious?

4% followed by another 7% next year....yes please!! Then to be subjected to local fiirefighters telling us people are going to die because the Armed Forces can't cope, and how that's down to the government is disgusting!

You've been offered double inflation, get back to work and do the job you joined up to do and indeed agreed to!!!

God bless all over the next few days out on the Green Goddess Crews.

[Jackonicko]

What a pity no-one's got the guts to let the Fresco chaps go across the picket lines and use the superior, modern kit.

But perhaps forces discipline, morale, creative thinking and leadership, combined with modern equipment would provide too good a service, and raise uncomfortable questions....?

[Talking Radalt]

"But perhaps forces discipline, morale, creative thinking and leadership, combined with modern equipment would provide too good a service, and raise uncomfortable questions....?"

You said it. I have zero sympathy for these lefty unionists after their continuous criticism of the contingency services. Implying they're a bumbling Dad's Army of thick squaddies using tired old museum pieces to fumble they're way through any emergency is insulting in the extreme. Maybe when we all head for sunnier, sandier climes, a few firemen can come along. Then we'll take the **** when they put an S10 on upside down.

Like you say Jacko, maybe the idea of relatively untrained new-comers doing just as good a job with less equipment AND FOR LESS MONEY in most cases, is just a bit too bitter to swallow.:mad:

[DICKY the PIG]

CBW,

Some very valid points there,especially concerning the other emergency services, however these guys work 12 hour shifts 4days/nights on followed by 3 off. That's a 48 hour week(granted they might not be fighting fires all that time and indeed may be sleeping. Perhaps we should only be paid when we are at work,awake, SAR crews take note, and not paid 24/7). They then go and work in another job on their days off...do you work in Sainsbury's on a Sat/Sun?
Some of the risks they face on a daily basis:
1. Burns(obvious I know!!)
2. Explosions(personal experience on that one....Yesterday!!!!)
3. Chemicals and other noxious substances(Journalists etc! Sorry Jacko!).
4. Derelict buildings falling down on them, falling through them, and do you realise that the drug users who occupy these buildings, tape upturned needles to the bannisters so that they spike the Police when they search the place, they also spike the firefighters who are searching for these 'druggies' through thick smoke in Breathing apparatus with restricted views!
5. Blood contamination(Doctors,nurses and police as well)
6.Smoke inhilation(so much more deadly than any fire itself).
These are but a few of the many dangers these guys face saving our necks every day. From your wording I take it you feel pretty strongly about it...fair enough....but if you think its a quote: "Basic job worth a standard wage" you are either very mistaken or downright bloody arrogant.

Grob, 21k is what a fully qualified firefigher earns 4 years after graduating firethingy school. You say you hope that you aren't involved in an RTA with no firemen about.....it's amazing what we take for granted isn't it.
Don't get me wrong chaps I realise everybody would like much more pay and that's not going to happen, but these guys are really undervalued by the public(until they need them) and are definately underpaid.

I believe their major gripe is the fact that the local authorities want to use these fireman for related duties during the 3 days they currently have off. For this they would get an extra 3-5k a year. Unfortunately a lot off guys who work secondary jobs on their days off earn considerably more than that and are understandably quite annoyed.
Please feel free to berate me.... I don't care I'm off to Fort William in my little green goddess for a couple of days, so won't be here to read it.
Dicky

[Chinese Vic]

All fair points but I still can't justify the 40% - 31K pay claim to my SAC who has just been deployed on FRESCO and gets paid 11.5K!

CV:mad:

(Where's the spoolchocker?)

[Grob Driver]

Dicky the Pig… Enjoy Scotland! I don’t see why they have to work part time on a Saturday to subsidise their £21K… I bet you don’t see Chinese Vic’s SCA working Saturdays subsidising his £11.5K…..

As for the dangers they face in their day-to-day jobs. Err, yes, and what’s your point? We all face dangers every day some of which are a lot greater than those facing firemen. Flying 100’ through a valley looks pretty dodgy to me… Just take a look at some of the photographs posted on this forum. Just think about the dangers that everyone faces on an active airfield. Sorry Mr Firemen, but it’s not all bad.

As for me attending an RTA without assistance…. I don’t take the firemen for granted… You are certainly missing my point. I’m saying that they do a good job, but are already paid a respectable wage… Ok, give them a pay rise,…. But 40%…. That’s just taking the p**s!!

Jackonicko. The reason that on one can use the fire services equipment is because they’ve put a clause in their ‘strike agreement thing’ (defiantly NOT a technical term there!) saying that any equipment used by outside personnel at the time of the strike will be taken off their inventory and never used again by the fire service. Not sure if they would really do that, but that’s what they are saying so, in the mean time, we’re stuck with what we’ve got…. 5 green goddesses for the whole of Lincolnshire! It sucks! I really think that they should be ashamed of themselves.

Good luck chaps and chapesses.

Grob Driver

[ClearBlueWater]

Dicky, four points:

1. I believe it's not actually four shifts (48 hours) on 3 days off but in fact four shifts on 4 days off, somewhat tilting the balance of the hours worked argument.

2. If you work on the basis that the Forces personnel are paid 24/7 then the hourly rate for the majority is below the national minimum standard. Herein falls apart the argument about only being paid when at work.

3. I don't feel particularly strongly about it. I think I feel about as strongly about it as the majority of the population. Sure, go ahead and give the fire fighters a pay rise, but their demands are frankly out of all proportion to their day to day input as compared with other public service workers and therefore simply alienate much of the support they would otherwise garner.

4. The reason so many are eligible to apply for the job, and so many can do it and the pay is therefore not fantastic is because IT IS A BASIC JOB in that does not require a particularly strong set of relatively uncommon talents to learn and apply the skills required. That's not arrogance on my part its just an obvious point in evidence.

Wishing you well with your Fresco duties.

[John (Gary) Cooper]

Great stuff this, soldiers replacing firemen, OK so when Iraq blows up, keep the squaddies on the Fire line and put the Firemen in the Firing Line on Squaddies pay! They will then know which side their bread is buttered. What we pensioners need is a 40% hike in our 'wages' to bring us in line with the destitute..........

[smartman]

I've the utmost admiration for all you non-volunteers out there on Op Fresco - and absolutely none for those volunteers holding us all to ransom over an outrageous (verging on greed) 40% pay increase. Ask any paramedic (they are reluctantly accepting 4%) his/her opinion over shift content, relative dangers, activity at RTAs, etc -- and I suspect your average fireman would have a sheepish reaction to the comparison. Were the ambulance service (who, shamedly, are not classed as an emergency service by HMG) to go on strike we would be hard pressed to provide similar cover to that of Op Fresco. The firemen can walk off the job in the knowledge that the Armed Forces will cover their arse: not so for the paramedics - a telling point.

Good luck to those on the Greens!!

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Dicky, can I suggest you try putting your point forward to the LAC/SAC fftrs who are all deployed on FRESCO as I write. Poorly paid, similar risks (OK not nearly as often), living in cells (Colchester) and being backfilled at their parent units!

Oh, and these lads will probably go OOA with the rest of us over the next year.

[Talking Radalt]

Well whatever.....good luck to all involved now it's game time. Stay safe.

"Wicked people are always surprised to find ability in those that are good." - Marquis De Vauvenargues

[Letsby Avenue]

Whilst I can appreciate spineless Bliar's reluctance to use the county fire fighting eqpt as opposed to the GG (just wouldn't do to cross a picket line would it?) but I do wonder why we are still paying good council tax to keep these plonkers on the picket line in a nice well lit, warm environment - no doubt they take turns on the picket line and then use the station facilities to eat, drink, sleep etc. - Shouldn't we lock the stations, turn out the lights and hire security to keep these nobbers on the pavement all night?

PS - I couldn't help wondering how many 'Firefighters' are prepared to let their children burn to death for the cause?

Rant Over.:mad:

[John (Gary) Cooper]

I feel totally embarrassed in the fact that these red engines are 'isolated' in their stations whilst police are having to escort antiquated equipment at a snails pace through the Cities, Towns and Villages of this country. Why the hell do we have to use something that is 50 years of age when we scrap the ones that are up to the job say 10-15 years ago. What happened to the maximum 6 pickets per line-another cave in!

[knowitall]

That the F.B.U. have said in their strike conditions that if the Military break the picket line to use a fire engine the F.B.U. members will refuse to touch it ever again!

Nice one lads, good to see your priorities are in the right place!

Petrol driven vehicles are not allowed into some major chemical plants!

I suspect that if you gave the military the proper kit they might just do too good a job for the F.B.U.'s liking!

How did the union ever let it get this bad! On their website they state that the F.B.U. "has as its ultimate
aim the bringing about of the Socialist system of society" well how about less worrying about systems of govt. and more worrying about your members interests.

If you hadn't been so wed to your Battle honour/pay formula for the last 20+ years then maybe you wouldn't be in this hole!

You want professional pay for a professional service how about getting a professional union!

P.S. good luck to everyone on Fresco you can only do you best!

[Archimedes]

Interesting - if true, Becksian logic (that's logic fuelled by a bottle of Becks for those unaware of this important element of philosophical reasoning) suggests:

1. FBU members won't touch fire engine again
2. UK left with large numbers of nice, shiny red fire engines packed full of up-to-date equipment...
3. Therefore, new owners required: MoD, anyone, replacing the Green Goddesses?? Be a shame to let them go to waste. After all, we, the taxpayers, have paid for them.
4. Fire fighters discover that a) chaps and chapesses on FRESCO do as good as or better job. Embarrassed return to work the only credible option.
5. No fire engines any more.
6. Local authorities have to buy new ones.
7. 'Sorry, Mr Gilchrist - we have to buy new fire engines, so we can't afford any pay increase at all for your members. Of course, you can insist on the pay increase, but without any fire engines, you can't work, so we'll have to sack all your members...'

I don't think that the FBU have thought this one through: don't use the fire engines, the government has the right to point out that as taxpayers property, they'll have them all, thank you. No fire engine, Sam, no job. New fire engine needed? No money to pay you with. Your choice...

[Talking Radalt]

Well hurrah with big brass knobs on.
Needless to say first GG hit the streets minutes after 18:00 hrs, appearing on ITN within half an hour.
Must admit it was reassuring and, call me sad, a bit moving to see it lumber off in to the night to raptuous applause and rousing cheers from on-lookers. Later tonight I was in town and one went past (off call) and the place ground to a halt as everyone, even those in cars and pubs, came on to the street to cheer the crew home.
The Blitz spirit is clearly alive and well.
Keep up the good work boys 'n' girls. You are clearly appreciated.
:)

[raf4]

Just a thought.
The striking firefighters on the picket lines are obviously not on
duty. Shouldn't they be wearing their own clothing instead of the
nice warm firefighters clothing supplied by us hard working taxpayers?
I also hope I don't start seeing families complaining that they won't have enough money in the run up to the festive season.
Easy solution, get back to work!!!!

All the best to the GG crews from one who did it in 1977.

[Gainesy]

For those on Op Fresco, civvy firefighters are starting to post tips & advice on ARSSE (Pongo's PPrune thingy) Some seriously good advice.
link:
http://www.arsse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1/YaBB.pl?board=gen_pol;action=display;num=1037199348

Thanks and Good Luck to all involved, stay safe.

[Scud-U-Like]

The firefighters should be offered a one-off, inflation-busting £5k pay rise in exchange for a permanent no-strike contract and an agreement to modernise their working practices.

If they don't agree, all firefighters involved in the strike should be sacked (a la Reagan and the US air traffic controllers). The fire service should then be turned into a part of the armed forces. If they want to re-apply for their jobs, the firefighters will have to join HM's finest. In the interim, the fire service will be a detachment for the armed forces and the Country will just have to get used to a reduced level of fire and rescue service.

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

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Copied from another post

Well Done to all those on Fresco.

Why shouldn't our guys cross the picket line and use superior equipment, it may save more lives and make the going easier. Our guys do not belong to a union so sod the picket lines, why should we recognise them.

The "poor" firemen only earning 21K for a four day week, I bet a lot of the military wouldn't mind that if they could go home every night without the threat of being sent away at short notice.

Did anyone see the "poor" fireman on GMTV this morning? He was interviewed in his luxury kitchen complete with island hob etc. How can he afford that on only 21K. Because he's got another job to fill the rest of his normal working week. He was being interviewed because his son who is in the army was manning a green goddess. Talk about putting the lives of your own family at risk.

I went past a fire station earlier and a sign said honk if you support us, I slowed down and shouted that they should get back to work and stop whinging.

I have just heard that part of the trigger of the dispute is that the fire service want to restructure the shift system which will prevent most firefighters from holding down a second job and therefore threaten thier extra salary.

Public support is waining, befare the strike 65% supported it but by this morning it was down to 42%.

Go on boys get the red fire engines, it was always the dream of young lads to drive a fire engine, now's you chance.

Best of luck, don't take too many other chances.

[MR TROTTER sr]

How nice to have a common enemy for once, insted of ascot v's kipper fleet, aircrew v's groundcrew etc. The FBU seem as popular as the "Judean Poular Front". I think we should reward them for their efforts to unify our community!

[RMPA]

I am amazed at how quiet the other Public Servants have been. We have already talked about how the covering servicemen are getting less money, in many cases, than the workers they are covering. We have also mentioned ambulance workers.

Nurses undergo a minimum of 3 years of demanding training . I know; I did it! The pay was so crap I joined the RAF and trained as a pilot, served 19 years, and am now a civil pilot, earning approximately 4 times what the average nurse does. I had to study just as hard to get my nursing qualifications as I did to get my wings, and I had to put up with a lot more ****....literally.

These nurses get just as much abuse as the police (try A & E in a City on a Friday night), are often qualified in very specialised areas (Coronary and Intensive care for example), and the average nurse still gets paid about two thirds of a firemans wage. Not only that, but they DO have the right to strike, but the main nursing union, the Royal College of Nursing, will NOT do it, BECAUSE IT WILL RISK THE LIVES OF THE PATIENTS.

It would be interesting to see, if the nurses did choose to strike, how well the services would be able to fill in covering a shift in Theatre, Intensive Care, or Coronary Care, never mind routine post operative care of a spleenectomy. I suspect it would take more than a week of training strapped to a fire hose.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Consider this:

What is the probability of these items coming together:

a. A UK based fireworks factory catching fire (consider all the UK's HSE, fire protection, explosive storage and other rules and regulations presumably being applied).

b. Within hours (minutes?) of the first Firefighters strike for 25 yrs.

c. Within a few yards of a (striking) Fire Station.

d. That JUST HAPPENS to have a TV crew there to film the whole thing.

just a thought....................I'll join the Cynical Queue over there shall I?:rolleyes:

Good luck Lads and Lasses..... You won't need it though, 'cos you are The Business.

[swinging monkey]

Grob driver,

You have got the right idea mate. No one forced them into joining the fire service did they?
The thing is, this is just what happened the last time we had a labour government in power. You watch, the dustmen will be next, followed by the postal workers, followed by the rest of the left wing, labour-loving commie bastards!
Just to add another note on the firemen, my mate is a fireman, and he tells me that the number of perks they get is unbelievable!!
He gets discount at virtually every store in his town, no matter what kind of shop it is, DIY, Bookshop, Decorators etc blah
Anyway, I hate to say it, but it WILL cost some poor sod his,her, their lives, and then the FBU will have it on their concious for ever.
To all GG crews - well done boys & girls, don't worry about the things that go wrong, the public love you all, and thats what matters - keep smiling!

Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Keep Swinging Boy!"

[Grimweasel]

Can vouch for the above!!

Went out in a Northern town last week and at the nightclub door we asked if Fireman got in for free... "yes" Said the asian doorman...on production of a fireman ID card.

We showed our Mod 90 and were refused entry.... We said that we were the stand in Fireman for the area whilst the real ones were on strike.

We were disgusted... evey one paints the fireman as a hero, and after completing two shifts I now know that he is an Idle cardplaying TV and DVD watching comfort scoffing layabout who very Occasionally has to go and put a fire out. All this rubbish about risking life and limb is a benign argument if you ask me.

Its time for the macho image to be played down. The Army/RAF/RN risk their lives more in terms of danger and job hazards every day, much more so than the Firemen.

Paramedics get a derisory wage compared to the Fireman and they actually SAVE thousands of lives a day. If anyone were worth a payrise it would be them.

Andy Gilcrist or whatever he calls himself is a Militant left wing un-educated tosser who is well out of his depth. Has anyone checked if he has links to Al-Q?? Great new terrorist tactic to bring the country to its knees by means of a strike...

This is not the Mod view just mine and a few other servants who wish that the Fireman would take a reality check and bog off. £21k a year is not bad at all when you consider they only work half the year!!!! These idiots need to go to some poverty stricken country such as Afghanistan just to see how lucky they really are. It makes me sick. Bring back Maggie, she'd never had stood for any of it. Sack 'em all and bring in new recruits who want to do the job......


Rant over...

[swinging monkey]

Grimweasel,

You are so right my dear chap.
As a former 'dope on a rope' I risked my neck far more often and for a bloody sight less money than the firemen get, I can tell you.
All this moaning and whinging about pay - blah, utter crap
As I said before, they knew what they were signing up for didn't they? And as for your comments about free entry into pubs/clubs etc. yep, its all true.
Maybe its time to stop swinging 365 days a year and maybe join the fire brigade! let me see now, £21k+ for 180 days a year work, hum, most of my mates are spending more than that out out the uk, watching sod all in Afghanistan every day!
Yeh, lets all quit the mob and join up for the fire brigade, sounds a pretty cushy number to me.
Keep up the good work all you GG crews:)
You have the total support of the British public, unlike those left wing commie firemen, who are rapidly losing the support of the nation.
Keep smiling:p
The swinging monkey
'let more line out Johnny!':eek:

[Grob Driver]

I’m not going to say anything this time… The swinging monkey & Grimweasel have summed it up perfectly.

Grimweasel, I’m just getting an application form now…. Do you want me to get one for you!?

Oh, any one know of the likelihood of this next strike going ahead?... Need to know if that’s my weekend ******ed up!

[Target seen...]

Just a quick message for Dicky the Pig. As you have some sympathy for the fire fighters cause I thought you may be interested in how the FBU came to their justification for a 40% rise.

Whilst sat in a JOCC on Op Fresco last week I had an interesting conversation with the Senior Fire Officer present. The report that the FBU are using as their basis for a rise has been seen by minimal members. The 40% they insist they are worth was agreed apon over pint at a pub lunch. Without quoting the individuals concerned it went along the lines of, "So what about £25,000 then?" "Why not make it a nice round figure, 40% takes us to £30,000." "40% it is then."

So those hard working dedicated firemen who are spouting off on the news about how much they are worth might like to provide the fuel for all this hot air they are spouting.

And if you really believe a job with a 48 hour week, the ability to run a second job(declared to the inland revenue of course!), is worth a 40% rise then could you tell me where I get a flight to your world.....

Red Sky at night, Goddess is on duty......:mad:

[paradoor]

Nice one Grim W + Swinging M

I was reading a local wrag whilst on a night shift the other day somewhere in deepest Wales and a very interesting topic caught my eye.

They covered the top 50 most hazardour/dangerous jobs in Britain. I am sure you will not be surprised to here that our military colleagues fell in at numero uno.

The firemen only managed a mere no. 28 which was well after doctors, nurses and paramedics.

But just to rubbish these lefty bas----s they actual came after rufuge collectors who put their lives on the line every time they pick up a rubbish back which could contain users needles.

So i propose we pay people not bey what they think they do but exactly how hazardous their post actual is. ummmmmmmm
i work out that the firmen are over paid by 40 %

[DICKY the PIG]

Target Seen

And you beleived it? I see you're from Oxford....obviously not at the university then.
These guys aren't just a group of drunken louts in the pub, they're professional people with what they consider to be serious greviances, just because you don't agree with them doesn't make you right and them wrong.
As regards the "job with a 48 hour week and the ability to run a second job" drivel you spout, how often do you work 48 hours a week and then go and do a second job. I'm yet to see any aircrew up here at Ice Station Kilo do it.......maybe I should go to work more often to see it.
Oh and by the way..... timetable to my planet is in the post to you old boy!:p

[Target seen...]

Dicky the Pig

Obviously those northern extremes of Ice Station Kilo have made you forget that there is an Air Force out there where the aircrew work for a living - 7 months in a tent in the extreme climates of this world gives me some authority to comment on this matter - And before you ask about the remaining 5, they were just as busy all week and weekends and equating to far more than 48 hours. And don't consider that a whinge - just doing my job.

I was not suggesting that I was right and the fireman are wrong - merely echoing Grim W, Swinging M and Paradoor - they are paid well for a short week, the job is not that dangerous(comparatively I grant you, but ask a certain ex-fireman, now Crewman who had to increase his life insurance considerably on change of trade) and who do you think is going to end up paying for such a large pay rise which will end up being for all public sector workers??? - We are - the tax payer.

All public sector workers do a valuable job and should receive a wage to reflect such. I think fireman should look at the skill level and pay of their peers, and then ask themselves if they are really worth 40% more - in my opinion, not.

Oh, and thanks for getting personal - helps no end to back your argument!!! What will it be - standard banter response next???

Tried to get tickets for a flight to your world...didn't have any in my class...:rolleyes:

[John (Gary) Cooper]

Politicians lead from the front, award themselves a HUGE rise without any justification, everyone else wants a piece of the cake, too many Midland Bankers at the top, what we want is all firemen seconded to the armed forces on Squaddie Rates of pay that way when the balloon goes up 'orf to Iraq wiv em' and let the Squaddies have the REAL Fire Engines to fight fire. No one deserves a 40% rise, not politicians, firemen and certainly not NANCY BOY FOOTBALLERS!

[swinging monkey]

John, Gary, Mr Cooper,

Love it!!
couldn't have put it better myself. Still, it looks like the commies may get 16% after seeing the news this morning - bas***ds:mad:
Interesting to see CDS on TV last night making Geoff Hoon like like a third rate numpty eh? At last, someone at the top has put his cards on the table and let the country know that we cannot cope. Good man.
Just a bloody shame it was a Fish-head, and not a flyer.
Don't put away those GGs just yet boys, you may just be needed one more time, but it looks like the baddies won again.
Regards to all GG crews, hope your all back home soon.
The Swinging Monkey

More slack Jeeves!

[John (Gary) Cooper]

The Swinging Monkey

Do you want to see what Numptys are running our country click on to my <WWW> site above and have a read of The Civil Service Within The MoD page now that makes abyssmal reading from highly intelligent, highly paid Numptys!!!!!!!

[swinging monkey]

John,

What a facinating site, I strongly urge the rest of you out there to take a look.
Thanks for sharing it with us all.
I wish I could say I was surprised, but I regret I am not, and as you will know, nothing much has changed - look at the chinook fiasco.
Regards

The Swinging Monkey
Tighter Jeeves, pull in that rope!

[MightyGem]

Does anyone have a link to the website that featured in the Sun today? It's about a spoof recruiting poster for the Army. :D

[BDiONU]

I thought this was an interesting spin from the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2508907.stm

About how bored the military (and police escorts) are, how its not the challenging second career one of the SNCO's thought it might be!

[Axel-Flo]

Never thought I'd say it but well done Mr Blair, he did seem at last to be congratulating and recognising the efforts of the Military crews of the dear old Green Goddesses. Especially noting that even if you put the (supposedly) trained fire fighters with just the same equipment as military crews have they would achieve little more if anything. ITN have just aired the comments of some the servicemen and women. Living in temp accom and pointing out what their actual pay is against what the fire fighters demands or even current pay rates are. And Mr Gilchrist, what will 40% do to his salary of £82,000? in comparrisson to any other national wage....on the basis of what he has or not to do for it. Saw the Army recruiting poster spoof today....well thought out and so true.:rolleyes: Finally I would love to see an end to the press praising the striking firefighters for crossing their own picketlines when life is at risk (and an opportunity for good PR exists-if you were cynical)forjust doing the F%$#ing job they signed up for and should be doing in the first place.:mad:

[Talking Radalt]

The twaddle some firefighters are coming out with now really is reaching the plain stupid.
One bloke this morning was going on about how although he admitted it was nice being able to supplement his income, every one else could get a second job "in the evening" if they wanted to. Not quite the same as having four regular days a week to devote to it though is it? ****.:mad:

[Jackonicko]

My wife is a teacher, who comes home knackered and semi-comatose. She could never in a million years do a second job.

She took three years at Uni and one at teacher training college to qualify, and after 16 years in the job earns less than a Firefighter gets on day one.

She's a high calibre and highly intelligent woman, dedicated to her career and doing a useful and important job. Her dimmer sister is a GP pulling in £70K per year.

I must say that I thought that the 11% (conditional on modernisation) offered by Bain seemed very generous for public sector workers.

If this is insufficient for firemen in London and the South East, why not move away from national pay scales? This might at least be a good tactic to cut the ground from the FBSU's feet....

[knowitall]

Er No Mate!

They get 3 grand per year london allowance (oh and theyd like that doubled as well while we are at it!)

Good Luck to everyone on Op. fresco Youv'e done a fantastic job so far!

[Jackonicko]

Sorry, was unclear. London weighting is patently inadequate, and doesn't apply (Doh!) to firefighters in other equally expensive parts of the country - like Reading. Subsidised housing for key workers is not the answer. Proper pay is.

And whereas £25 K is a very fair wage in the frozen North or the West country, it's not really enough in huge swathes of the south east.

[Axel-Flo]

Jackoniko, in terms of a weighting for the firemen (sorry PC version firefighters) just compare it to the weighting that the stand in firefighters get at their home bases (when ever they are actually there) like Odiham, Benson etc. Also the council tax or whatever rates are called these days that they pay while deployed in a tent worldwide in a.n other **** ole and receiving no benefit from all they pay without weighting in the first place.

A repeat, I know, but we are still allowing the striking gits to use the fire stations to brew up etc, have a kip while they are on night picket duty, and disgustingly wear their taxpayers provided fire fighting clothing (usually just the jackets with a pair of Jeans....cos it looks cool while the mil personnel fight fires in soldier 95.....with, I have it on good authority, the fire retardent properties of a petrol soaked oilly rag.:mad:

[swinging monkey]

Jackonicko

for the first time in a great many months I find that I must disagree with you - sorry.
The 'London weighting' allowance is nothing short of an utter farce!
With the exception of Housing, there is NOTHING in London that is more expensive than any where else in the UK!
I will agree that housing is a joke, but everything else, in the main, is usually much much cheaper. I am sympathetic to the housing market in the south east however, if things are that bad, its dead simple - MOVE!!!!
Dont sit and bleat about it, get up off your behind and do something about it! And £25K is not an 'adequate wage' for the North, its a bloody fantastic wage! What do you think the average wage is in 'the frozen north'?
I hate to say it, but Mr Blair is doing the right thing here. To give in to the firemen (sod PC!) would be a disaster for this country. Who would be next? the binmen, council workers, nurses, policemen blah!
Sorry, rant over
Best wishes to the GG crews, God Bless you all.
Hope its sorted before Christmas so you can be with your families - you all deserve that.

Kind regards

The swinging Monkey
'Simpson, don't throw nuts at the firemen!'

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

After all the success of the military so far fighting fires, I am rubbing my hands with glee at the inevitable prospect of the Armed Forces Pay Review Board recommending a 40% pay rise for us. In fact, I shall start spending it immediately.

[Talking Radalt]

...or B)

Go directly to somewhere hot and sandy. Do not pass Go. Do not collect 40%

:rolleyes:

[Grob Driver]

Well Swinging monkey... I may be over here in San Diego, but I'm still 'on line'!!!!

Sorry, for the first time, I have to disagree with you. While it may only be the cost of housing that is more expensive in the London area, it is a huge extra cost, and one that should be compensated for in peoples wage. That not only goes for firemen, but lots of other professions too.

Still, I agree with you about Mr Blair…. Hope he holds his ground because all in all, they are on a blo*dy good wage and don’t deserve what they are asking for… It’s ridiculous.

Cheers, and happy landings!

Grob Driver

Bl*oby hell... those mountains are close!:D :D :D

[Nearly there!]

Swinging Monkey -

Surely you're being a little facetious when you suggest that anyone not happy with living expenses in London should leave? That's absolutely fine on a personal basis. I suspect that a lot of people have done just that over the last couple of years. However, the government needs to induce lower-paid workers to stay there, otherwise who would empty the bins / teach kids / do nursing / be in the emergency services? Accommodation in London is not just a little bit more expensive than elsewhere; it's so far gone now as to be ridiculous...

[swinging monkey]

Nearly There & Grob Driver,

thanks for the reply, but I beg to argue that you have missed my point Chaps!! I did say that the price of housing was a joke did I not??:D :D
But are you really trying to tell me that the London Weighting allowance makes up for it? Of course not.
I agree entirely with you NT that we need to encourage the lower paid to stay there, but lets get away from this Red Herring called LA and address the problem of house prices in the London area for the low paid.

Grob Driver, what are you doing 'slumming it' in San diego when us hard working monkeys are back here, fighting terrorism, fires. the government blah!!!????:confused: :cool: ;)
Get back to Blighty asap!!!

and watch out for them there mountains!!
Regards to all

The Swingiong Monkey
'Caruthers, fetch me a large Scotch, theres a good Chap!'

[Grob Driver]

Swinging monkey!!!

What am I doing out here in San Diego.... Just thought I'd give up the airspace around lincolnshire for a while to do a spot of flying out here! - See the sights and all!!

Have those firemen got their act together yet and stopped playing silly b*ggers with peoples lives?

Well, got to go... it's time to fly!

Cheers

Grob Driver

Doh.... Must remember to avoid Miramar next time!:eek: :eek:

[Jackonicko]

Grob Driver,

Special 'low price' ghetto housing for vital workers in London is not the answer.

Paying them enough to live in dignity where they are needed is.

End of story.

Jacko

[Talking Radalt]

...and bring back Spangles :)

[swinging monkey]

Grob Driver,

you lucky s*d:D :D
I thought the skies around the Lincs MATZ were particularly quite at the moment:(
Do be careful of Miramar, its full of nasty USMC types, who shoot first and ask questions later:confused:
I'm pleased to say that the left-wing commie firemen have gone back to work today:p
I'm sorry to say that the left-wing-commie tw*ts are back on strike again next wed or thursday:mad:
I should stay over there if I were you, and enjoy the scenary (and the flying:cool: :) )

Jacko, I don't think that low price ghetto homes are the answer either, but, I dont think that someone should be paid a vast amount more simply because they live in the capital.
Do the firemen, like the cops, get subsidised housing?? I always understood that they did. Does anyone know ??

Anyway, if my comments have offended anyone (other than left-wing commie firemen!) I offer my humble apologies:D

Best wishes to all GG crews, guess you'll be back next week.

Regards

The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, book me a ticket to San Diego, pronto old boy!'

[Grob Driver]

Jackonicko.

Sorry, have I missed something? When did I make reference to low price ghetto housing being the solution? I think you've got the wrong man there! If you read the thread properly, I AGREE WITH YOU! I've said that all along that people Living in London should be given extra in order to live a comfortable lifestyle!

Jack.... Don’t shoot down your friends!.... You sound like those nasty USMC types The Swinging Monkey was talking about!

Swinging Monkey..... Don’t worry mate.... I'll be back soon enough causing more havoc!

As for the firemen... Old Mr Blair is holding his ground ay.... Good man! Mr Blair... It's not often I agree with you, but on this one... I take my hat off to you!

Cheers,

Grob Driver...

Next stop Vegas!!!!! $$$$$
:D :D :D

[Nearly there!]

Swinging Monkey,

It used to be the case that nurses could get cheap accommodation in student-style halls of residence attached to hospitals. These were pretty much single-room bedsits with shared facilities. They've all but disappeared now, since the halls have been converted into trendy (expensive) flats. The only other group that gets cheap housing in London are the squaddies of the various Guards regiments, and there was even talk of them being kicked out to make way for nurses!

If you agree that low-price ghetto accommodation is not the answer, and you don't want to pay people any more for working in expensive areas, what do you suggest? Give London landlords/house-sellers a telling off for being so greedy?

[swinging monkey]

Nearly There,

I DO agree that low-price ghetto accomodation is not the answer, however...........
there will never be a satisfactory solution to please everyone will there?
Like you say, you cannot expect landlords to rent out accomodation for £100.00 per week when clearly they can charge £1000.00 per week (would you?)
My point is but a simple one tho'... why should the rest of the UK pay for other peoples housing in London? how do you fancy subsidising me, so that I can live in Mayfair?? you don't do you?
I live in rural Lincolnshire. I have NOTHING of the facilities that are available in the metropolis. But I can't say to my Boss 'I'm not comig to work today 'cos we don't have an Odean cinema in my village' can I?
If I decided that I wanted to live in London or in any other big city, with big city amenities, then I certainly wouldn't come cap-in-hand to the country, try to hold them to ransom simply because I couldn't afford a nice house in that location, it smacks of communism!
The only possible way forward is for the 'Fat Cat' people & companies who DO live in London and the SE to PAY for the services themselves, and NOT expect the rest of the UK to cough up.
As for paying the essential services enough to 'live in dignity' well it all sounds wonderful but, how would any of us feel if we found that the man who empties our bins, or sweeps the roads is earning far more than we are, but was able to live in a Chelsea flat?? I fear that many of us would be complaining to our MP that our council tax was too high, or that our Income tax was being wasted, and all so that Mr Bloggs can live in a nice house in London. No, sorry, that's NOT on.

Rant over, it's a problem isn't it?

Anyway, to you Grob Driver, have you been intercepted by those nice US Marines yet and their little toy with the sting in the tail?? watch your 6!!!

As for Vegas, keep a close eye open for the other US cowboys that operate out of Nellis! and remember, area 51 'aint far away!! so keep an even closer eye open for them!!
I remember a flag ex out of Nellis where some old time farmer, in a crop sprayer, entered one of the Nellis ranges. All hell broke loose, so be careful out there!! and lastly in Vegas - keep it in yer pants!!!

Best wishes to all.
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, it's time for my evening nap, fetch me a G&T'

[luke77]

Fireman

Supply and demand

Your job has risks - but put that compared to the serviceman who is covering you. He gets paid nearly 3 time less that which you are asking for and he will probably see more "risk" in his job!
30k in this day-and-age should be for 30K-skilled-people...those that went to uni or went through some multi-year-qualifying-no-pay-skill-training that you didn`t!
Most people are with you...but don`t take the p..s!

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Jackioko you are UAS excrement

[kilo52]

Jackonicko.

Isn't it odd that the previous contributor cannot get your name right but can spell s**t correctly?????

[A Civilian]

The highest death rate by job type in this country is construction workers followed by north sea oil men. Firemen, police etc come a lot further down the list.

The cost of living in london is insane. When I went down there years back I started looking for a house to buy, I couldnt buy one straight away as I didnt have a deposite (first time buyer) so I started saving up except that house prices kept rising faster than my savings did :) and I was on quite a comftable wage.

IMHO the easist way of reducing houseprices is to get rid of the stupid enviromental bans on skyscraper construction and start building them pronto. Give a load of tax breaks for companies to occupy them and hopefully then a lot of the land devoted to commerical developments will refocus on homes.

OT:: Assuming we attempt to join the euro this will mean that interest rates will decrease which will mean an even greater increase in property prices :eek: The UK's going to end up like Germany all the first time buyers cant afford to buy and therefore rent and lose out the greatest assert any average person can afford. By extension the gulf between the richest ppl and the poorest will increase and well all end up in the victorian age again.

edit:: ive been drinking so im a lot more cynical than I usually am.

[StopStart]

Obviously the DS solution would be to utilise the vast MoD housing estate to accomodate other public sector workers. Unused military housing stock could be rented to firemen, policemen, teachers blah blah blah at MoD rates thus keeping everybody happy.

This would of course be a possible solution had the Government not sold off all our housing to a nice asian man and his bank for £11.40, a mirror and some beads :rolleyes:

Still, at least they're not moving out Servicemen so they can sell off the housing. Ooo hush my mouth.

Gone off on one again..............

[Jackonicko]

Kilo,

Nothing that the bile-filled, spittle-spraying, inadequate Colonel says or writes surprises me all that much.

Grob,

Sorry mate, my own bile and spittle was clearly misdirected. Apologies.

[swinging monkey]

Chaps,

Just wanted to bring this back to the top where it belongs.

Civilian, youv'e got it wrong yet again (no real suprise there I suppose) The most dangerous job in the UK is that of commercial fishermen (from gov't figures) But you were close I suppose with construction workers! Doh!!:p

Luke 77, agree with you entirely my friend, well said.

Delighted to see that tomorrows strike looks like being canx.
At last, the left wing commie bastards have realised that the military, with their immensly outdated kit, have done a fantastic job, and can hold their own. My admiration and congratulations to ALL GG crews, well done Boys & Girls:) :)
Not only that, but the public have seen them for what they are!

Start Stop - your comments may well come true, very soon!

The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, fetch me a large Scotch!'

[BDiONU]

Most dangerous jobs link here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2195847.stm

"Fishermen and merchant seafarers have by far the most dangerous jobs in Britain, according to experts.
A study by researchers at Oxford University has found people working on the sea are up to 50 times more likely to die while working, compared those in other jobs.
Their jobs are much more hazardous than those in the construction or manufacturing industries and also a lot less safe than working for the police, army or fire brigade. "
The top ten is:
1. Fishermen
2. Merchant seafarers
3. Aircraft flight deck officers
4. Railway lengthmen
5. Scaffolders
6. Roofers and glaziers
7. Forestry workers
8. Quarry and other mine workers
9. Dockers and stevedores
10. Lorry drivers

I note that the FBU are agreed on 80% of the new working practices, but there are 3 sticking points. One of which means they're again claiming to work a 48 hour week. Which is disingenious to say the least. The rest of the populace (except for you fine military chaps) expects to work a 40 hour week over 7 days. The firemen work a 48 hour week over 8 days.
Or it could be argued that the general populace work 40 hours over 5 days to get 2 days off. Firemen work 48 hours over 5 days to get 3 days off. Hardly exceptional IMHO.

[kilo52]

A Civilian.

Keep up the drinking - your spelling and grammar improves.

[A Civilian]

Kilo. Stop typing completely that will be an improvement.

I think ive figured out why you all hate me. I was browsing through the arssesite (kinda boring) when I realised that all these squadies that post are seriously right wing. I was completely gobsmacked by this. I mean I dont know who posts on these forums but if it is a bunch of squadies there probably not earning much??? and yet their all talking like spin doctors from the young conservitives party. Its seriously distrubing :confused: Do the members of the armed forces tend to have right wing views?

[StopStart]

Is there an income level above which one is allowed to be Right-wing?

Hope I make the grade otherwise these jack-boots will have to go back......

:rolleyes:

[swinging monkey]

A Civilian,

We don't hate you at all. We all feel sad for you because you are such a sad, ignorant Arsehole, thats why!
We are not particularly left wing or right wing, but pretty much centre of the road, unlike your left-wing commie firemen friends (and presumaby you also)
Kilo 52, my friend, you have made the fatal mistake of playing into this fools hands. If you read his latest contribution you will see that neither his spelling or grammar improves, ever!:D
The man is a total knob:confused: try your best to ignore him.
Civilian,
Please, please, please sod off and leave us alone.
We have far more important things to do than reply to a mentally handicapped individual who believes that being a third generation radio controller gives him the right, and experience, to comment here.
You have neither, now sod off, theres a good chap!!:D

Regards
The Swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, don't let me reply to this nutter again!!'

[ORAC]

Civilian,

You think that you're disliked because the military are right wing and you, presumably, are left wing? Delusions of grandeur my friend, it's a lot simpler than that.

When you insult people to their face they tend to dislike you - regardless of your politics. Just as an experiment, try the same thing on a left wing site, I think you'll find the same response. :rolleyes:

[Kiting for Boys]

If I may,

'Squaddies' is a modern misinterpretation of the Urdu? word for Soldier - 'Swaddies' which was usually the army's slang name for soldiers until the 1960s.


Puir bliddy swaddies are wearie - Hamish Henderson


So Sergent-Major Money carried on, as instructed,
And that's where the swaddies began to sweat blood
- Robert Graves



I'll get my coat


ps Thanks again to all involved in the current 'unpleasantness'

[kilo52]

swinging monkey

Don't be so rude about "A Civilian".

The whole of the first sentence in his last post is correctly spelt !!!

[KENNYR]

OK! this is all about choices. The firemen chose their profession.....they knew the risks, the salary and the prospects of promotion. The Forces chose their profession, they knew about the salary and the prospects of promotion. WHAT THE HELL IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!!!! Why are the firemen holding the country to ransom for 40% more money? Why are the Forces complaining so much. The Forces carry out the wishes of the Government of the day and the wishes are to carry out the duties of the striking firemen.......this is your job! Come on people, a little understanding between us will go a long way.

[swinging monkey]

Kilo 52,

Oops sorry, your absolutely correct!

KennyR, interesting line there, not sure I fully understand it tho! Whats your point, pray tell:confused: :confused:

Regards
The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, me thinks this chap has had a little too much Moose Milk!'

[KENNYR]

SM, The point is that this is all much to do about nothing. The firemen are not going to get their 40%, we all know that. They are going to lose money during the strike, money that they will never recover. I would expect the Forces to comply with the governments wishes without belly-aching, isnt that why we have armed forces? Dont get me wrong, I in no way support what they are doing. They are sheep following instructions from their union. It would be interesting to poll the strikers to see just how many of them really want to be on strike.

[swinging monkey]

KennyR

Thanks for the explanation, and sorry I didn't get it first time:confused:
So what your saying is that you don't agree with the firemen's strike, and that it's OK for the armed forces to pick up any old gash jobs that the government want doing eh?
Well, we have been doing as the government wishes, as I'm sure you will have seen. But your comments about doing it without passing comment, or 'belly aching' as you so elequently put it, are unfair and unjust. Why shouldn't we voice our anger? We haven't said we will go on strike have we? No, we will do the job, just like it's always done.
But that is not the reason why we have the armed forces in this country either!
The members of the armed forces DID NOT join up to be ill-equipped, underpaid firemen! What next, bog cleaners, binmen, Road sweepers, what about just cheap old labouers? Oh, isn't that what we are? Lots opf the youngsters manning GG's are!!
And why should we/they not complain about a bunch of left wing commies, holding this country to ransom??
And much to do about nothing eh?
I'm not sure you would think like that if you had just returned from Ops somewhere in the world, to find that your post-op leave is cancelled and your off to take over from the firemen.

Come on Kenny, when the CDS stands up and complains IN FRONT of HIS BIG boss, AND in front of millions of viewers, then you can rest assured that things have reached a pretty low and unacceptable level. Was he 'belly aching'???

[KENNYR]

SM, that is exactly what I'm saying. It's not your fault that the firemen went on strike but now that they have you must respect the wishes of the Government otherwise we have anarchy. you dont have to like it but you have to comply. I agree that you didnt sign up to do all these odd jobs, but you did sign up. So if you dont like what you are expected to do there is always an option available.

[Training Risky]

KENNYR: The day to day work of servicemen covering for the firemen is carried out with skill, dedication, cheerfulness and discipline. When they receive an order they respond without griping and get on with it.
Don't say we in HM Forces are griping all the time about nothing, we have real issues and the right to express them in PRIVATE (on this forum) while doing the job so ably.

Cut the firemens' pay to 11 grand, the salary of the average soldier/airman/sailor doing THEIR job so well.

[KENNYR]

TR, I in no way intended to imply that our servicemen and women are not doing the job to the best of their abilities or that they are not dedicated. However these forums are not the medium to get things changed. Sure its nice to vent and rant but is there no other avenue available to get the point across. Have things got so bad in the Forces that one cant talk to ones CO or OC. Has the chain of command broken down? I support you and your colleagues in your views and I definately support our boys and girls in the Forces 150%.

[swinging monkey]

KennyR,

I'm not sure if it's me or what, but your'e confusing the hell out of me either way!:confused: :confused:

Have the orders of the government NOT been carried out?
Are the armed forces manning the GG's ?
Have we not complied in any way, shape or form?
And you agree that we didn't sign up to do these jobs eh?

Hum, presumably then, your only complaint is that some of us have expressed our annoyance at it all then, Yes?:confused:

So what is your point then, do you agree with us or do you agree with the left wing commie firemen?

And why do people like you always revert to that classic line '....there is always an option....'
Yeh, sure there is, and sadly thats why the armed forces are losing so many valuable and talented people. Not because they are fed up of doing their PRIMARY job, whether it be flying, blunty work, groundies or whatever. They are leaving because of the crap and nause that there is so much of today, like the firemen's strike etc blah!:mad:

The fact is, sadly, there is really NO other way to express your views and feelings within the service other than in forums like this.
Why do you think so many very senior officers and airships read PPrune? just to pass away the day?
These kind of forums offer a vital link for the average grunt, in ANY of the services to say what he or she really feels without the fear of it ending their carreer.
Sure many will spout utter nif naf and rubbish, but............
In the main, the important issues that are aired here, can at least be seen by those high up, instead of those at the very top being 'protected' by an army of staff officers, whose sole job in life is to prevent them from receiving bad news! Take a look at how invaluable this forum has been in the Chinook fiasco!

Don't ever tell any member of the services that he or she does not have the right to voice their concern, anger, frustration blah on any forum. Remember, it's because of them, that you are free to make the comments you do, don't deny them the same right.

Training Risky, I'm with you.

The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, it's Friday night, a large G & T I think!'

[John (Gary) Cooper]

SM

Steady now, don't get all fired up those nasties in the red thingamies will have to come out and douse the flames. Got to agree with your post 95% except that I don't think they are ALL a bunch of Commies, just those being led to the slaughter. We all know about the aims of the likes of Gilchrist etc, I wonder really in their heart of hearts how many of those firemen really support their leaders if asked on a one to one basis, a lot of them must feel very intimidated like the retained firemen in Norfolk last week were when a 'bunch of 80 others' in the Easten Counties who descended on a retained station in rural Norfolk unannounced' There pretence was 'handing out fire safety leaflets to householders' but wanted to go and 'talk' to the retained men, that was a way round secondary picketing and it backfired on them. I think by going to ACAS they are looking for a way out, they will I am sure be offered an 'improved % rise' just in time for Christmas. The Squaddies will all be stood down, the embarrassing GG's will be mothballed for another 25 years and we will be called upon to douse the flames of the Middle East and allow the Phoenix to rise from the ashes again. ;)

[swinging monkey]

John

Thanks for that:)
I've had a big scotch tonight, and I'm feeling much calmer;)
Thanks for bringing me back down to earth:D

Kind regards

The swinging Monkey
'Caruthers, looks like I need Scotch more often'

[BDiONU]

In the face of industrial action by members of the armed forces, the government has announced that the Fire Service will, as an interim measure ,carry out military operations in Iraq. The Army, who have demanded a 40%pay increase on the basis that their job has become rather more technical since 1945,will begin strike action next Thursday unless a compromise pay deal can be agreed in the meantime. It is understood that they will spend their time standing around little bonfires, rubbing their hands together and waving at passing vehicles who honk their horns at them. Crack Fire Service personnel ,highly trained in playing darts, brewing tea and sliding down poles, are understood to be on standby to take up front line operations.
Using their 'red goddess' vehicles instead of tanks, they will race towards Iraqi lines and attempt to annoy the enemy into surrender by making a lot of noise and spraying them with water. Prime Minister Tony Blair has already stated the recent Fire Service strike has proved that a vastly undermanned service with limited training and unsuitable equipment can perform the duties of a well trained, well equipped and well manned professional force equally as efficiently. When it was pointed out to him that the bright red fire engines might make an easy target for enemy fire, Mr Blair said,' Never mind, we've got too many firemen as it is ... er, is that camera running?' Asked for his comment, Britain's partner in the coalition in the war against Iraq, US President George W.Bush ,said 'Oooh, can I have a go on the siren?'

[Vick11]

;) Given that we have covered their jobs as well as our own, can we expect the firemen to be the first in to Iraq as repayment? Go on we'll give them a couple of weeks training in NBC and maybe weapon handling (on the 303 of course to reflect the age of the Green Godesses).

[Archimedes]

Er... wouldn't training them on the old No.4 be giving them a better piece of equipment than the one currently in use in that role?

[luke77]

Fireman

I wonder why you want £30,000

Fighter-pilots start on less after 4 years training...if they are the minority that make the grade

Commercial pilots start on less after either training in the forces, or training in civilian life (like you) at great expense to themselves(though you do not pay anything I think)

Some of you do "extra" work like run taxi companies from the station - is this why your union doesn`t want you to have to do short-notice overtime in the modernization?

Last week in New York (You are familiar, because that is your reason to demand so much??-?) the subway-drivers threatened to go on strike, it being Christmas an all - and the state out-lawed it! Good for the citizen eh?

Is it true that there is a by-law that was over-looked from over a century ago in this country, that prevents industrial action if it affects public interest? And the Govt has just found it.

Stop taking the p###s and let our over-stretched, as-or-more-professional-than-you forces people do their jobs, without having to cover for your "taxi-managers"

[Axel-Flo]

Anyone out there know the truth about the christmas strike cancellation being helped/aided and abetted by the fact that were they to remain on strike they would not be eligible for their christmas bonus.

:mad:

[John (Gary) Cooper]

They, the firemens leaders, have gone a bit quiet of late. I'm sure that the Rank and File Firemen would take what is on offer on the table if given the opportunity, I stated some time back that they would settle for 6%, if they get this amount they will claim it a victory, so let's get our troops back to fighting wars not fires. I guess that the Squaddies are still 'training/standing by' for fire fighting duties, and impending war with Iraq, a pity the other shower is not as flexible!

[pilotwolf]

As far as I know they don't, despite various claims in the media, get Xmas bonuses EXCEPT double time and leave day in lieu of working the holiday.

Which I believe why the now cancelled strike was due to end on Xmas eve anyway.

Latest dates are for January - a couple of 48 hrs ones.