Fokker F27 crash in Philippines 11/11/02

[wes_wall]

CNN just reported an airplane down in MNL bay...no details.

[srs what?]

Was a Fokker 27 with 29 or 30 on board.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2439465.stm)

[9gmax]

BBC report attached for your info...
another sad day...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2439465.stm :(

[Idunno]

Three Fokkers in a row.
WIHIH?

[747dreamer]

CNN is reporting that a Fokker-27 crashed into Manila Bay, a few survivors have been rescued.

http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/11/10/manila.planecrash/index.html

[quixote]

Associated Press has reported a F27 with 34 people crashed into Manila Bay after takeoff Monday. Early reports are 14 dead and 16 survivors, others still missing.

The F27 sank in 50 feet of water after takeoff.

A survivor said he saw smoke coming from the left engine just before the pilot came on the intercom to tell passengers to brace for impact. "I noticed some smoke coming out of the left engine, and then it banked. Then we ended up down in the water," he said.

He added that the cabin instantly filled with water.

The pilot Bernie Crisostomo and co-pilot Joseph Gardiner survived.

[touch&go]

Not been a good 7 days for Fokker, what with the Euroceltic, Luxair and now this.

[Meeb]

Channel 5 news in the UK has just shown what appears to be a home video of the aircraft descending seconds before impact. It was in a shallow left turn with possibly the port engine not producing power...

Condolences to all involved in this tragedy.

[Mythos]

Yep, I saw the footage too. It looked like the right engine was feathered yet the news is saying that the left engine was the one with problems!

[Wet Power]

With the height and speed available even an F27 should have been able to climb away with an engine failure.

My thoughts are with a blade angle seizure which is nearly impossible to control.

[I. M. Esperto]

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newslett=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1037008440364B262&set_id=1

Pilots survived.

[curmudgeon]

It appears that the FO is well enough to speak to investigators.comments on the crash (http://www.philstar.com/philstar/News200211130402.htm)

Front section of F-27 recovered. story + picture (http://www.philstar.com/philstar/NEWS_FLASH111320029_8.htm)

cur

[lomapaseo]

Excerpt from “The Philippine Star 11/13/2002

Gardiner had recalled that while the aircraft was climbing to 350 feet after takeoff, the right engine lost power, causing the aircraft to lose speed before it crashed, Yap said.

……On the other hand, a representative of the British Rolls-Royce aircraft engine manufacturer, M.J. Gamlin, said they will bring the engine back home to determine the cause of the crash.”

Excerpt from “Reuters 11/11/2002

Manila - A passenger plane, trailing smoke from its left engine, plunged into Manila Bay and broke in two shortly after taking off from the Philippine capital on Monday, killing 18 of 34 people aboard.”

I couldn’t help but notice the glaring conflict between these two reports. I doubt that the engine manufacturer’s examination is going to determine anything more than the health of the engines and certainly not the cause of the crash.

[Capt.KAOS]

There are rumors (Ozzie television) that the Laoagair F27 was smuggled in the PI to avoid taxes. A PI Gov spokesman stated that the a/c was never registered and therefore operating illegaly. Any confirmation on that?

Cheers

KAOS

[PaperTiger]

KAOS the accident database websites are all identifying the aircraft as registered in the Phillipines. There does seem to be misinformation emanating from various sources however. Laoag was quoted as having voluntarily grounded their remaining F-27s, now the ATO says they ordered it. It has also been reported that this a/c was their only airworthy one, the rest being 'parts bins'.
And it seems they did bend another F-27 previously, without injury.

[Kaptin M]

Perhaps, lomapaseo, BOTH reports are correct:-
"A passenger plane, trailing smoke from its left engine..", and,
"Gardiner had recalled that while the aircraft was climbing to 350 feet after takeoff, the right engine lost power.... :(

You are indeed correct when you say,
the engine manufacturer’s examination is going to determine... the health of the engines

An aircraft with a sick left engine, and the power "lost" on the right would almost certainly be the ingredients needed to cause loss of flight capability.

[411A]

A Philippine newspaper reported yesterday that it is suspected that the fuel boost pumps in each engines' collector tank were not switched on for takeoff.

Flight recorder now recovered and has been sent for anaylsis.

[Wet Power]

Fokker Flight manual says that engines can operate without fuel pumps selected.

Seem to remember it actually mentioned in the QRH that up to 2000' was OK without boost pumps and has been proven, unofficially, that F27 Darts can operate up to 10000' without pumps.

[lomapaseo]

Please consider these as questions

I have heard that the first engine to quit automatically feathers, but if a second engine then quits it does not feather.

1) Is this correct ?

2) If yes to (1) above, is this to provide for quick relight?

In the photos I believe that I see one engine in feather (starboard).

3) Wouldn't a second engine OUT, not feathered be a significant yaw drag for the pilot to handle?

[pigboat]

On the F-27 if one propeller has been feathered, either automatically or manually, the auto-feather function of the other engine is disabled. The other engine can be manually feathered, but why anyone would want to do that before relighting the first engine would be a mystery. There is no quick relight feature, indeed the unfeathering action alone takes five seconds or so.
The fuel system is essentially gravity feed. Fuel from the main tanks is supplied to a collector tank in each nacelle and from there to the engine fuel lines via two low pressure pumps located in the collector tank. They would normally be on for take-off, but the engine would still operate without them being on.

[Flat Side Up]

Fuel contaminaion or blockage seems to be the only explanation for a simultaneous, multiple engine failure. In colder climes fuel filter heaters would be needed to melt possible ice and wax impurities in the fuel ; but in Manila temperatures not likely. Nevertheless use of fuel heaters used to be mandated in the Pre Take Off checks.

[Rabbit]

Its been 25 years since I operated the F-27 so my memory of is slim. One thing I do remember is that it is rather disastrous to select the water-meth on at full dry power. I am guessing at a possibility but just maybe the right engine did have a power loss and the crew simply selected the water on and "boom", no left engine. Just food for thaught.

Have a nice day

[Kaptin M]

The 3rd oil line (in the propellor system of the Dart) ALWAYS provides most answers!! :D
lompaseo you ask, "Wouldn't a second engine OUT, not feathered be a significant yaw drag for the pilot to handle?"...but who said that the first (left) engine had in fact FAILED?. From memory, the reports only said that "smoke was seen coming from it".

Fuel contaminaion or blockage seems to be the only explanation for a simultaneous, multiple engine failure.
Really Flat Side Up??
But who said the engines FAILED simultaneously?

Identify, Confirm, (THEN) Action the appropriate procedure. :) :(

[lomapaseo]

>he 3rd oil line (in the propellor system of the Dart) ALWAYS provides most answers!!
lompaseo you ask, "Wouldn't a second engine OUT, not feathered be a significant yaw drag for the pilot to handle?"...but who said that the first (left) engine had in fact FAILED?. From memory, the reports only said that "smoke was seen coming from it".<

I think you meant "second" not "first" in your quote above.

At any rate it was "nobody" except the thread drift and the newspapers .

http://www.philstar.com/philstar/News200211160404.htm

[ironbutt57]

Or maybe the poor fellow was just trying to feed his family by flying a piece of **** hoping he would survive long enough to get a real job...as lots of have done...give them a break and let the facts speak for themselves....

[newswatcher]

Reported in the Australian(2/12):

"INVESTIGATIONS into the crash of a Fokker 27 aircraft into Manila Bay last month, in which five Australian surfers were killed, have led to the arrest of the airline's Malaysian owner and Australian chief mechanic on immigration charges.

Although the official result of an inquiry into the crash has not been released, newspapers have reported a list of problems with the airline company and the plane, which crashed into the bay on November 11, killing 19 people.

On Friday, Australian national Jimmy Tan Chui, a board member of Laoag International Airlines, was arrested, along with his boss, company chairman Paul Ng, a Malaysian. Immigration commissioner Andrea Domingo said Mr Tan was the airline's chief mechanic and had been in The Philippines on a tourist visa. And although Mr Ng was married to a Filipina and had a resident's permit, he did not have appropriate work documents. Two pilots, who survived the crash, are also on an immigration watchlist to ensure they do not leave the country.

An airline spokesman, Alvin Yater, said Mr Tan was not an employee of the company and was merely a shareholder and "consultant". He said the pair was being held in an immigration detention centre but had not been formally charged.

Flight 585 was flying from Manila to Laoag, in the north of The Philippines, when it crashed into the bay just minutes after takeoff. Five young Australian friends from Sydney and Brisbane were killed, leaving a sole survivor from the group's planned two-week surfing trip to one of the best surfing breaks in The Philippines.

The Australian victims were: brothers Tim and Sam Coddington, 26 and 24, Darren Green, 23, Nick Wright, 24, and John Benson, 24.

Since the crash, newspapers have reported a series of problems with the airline and its planes. Transportation undersecretary Arturo Valdez claimed last week that the "fuel switch" was shut off. The aircraft's black box, although recovered from the bay, was effectively "blank" and yielded no information. Laoag Airlines was also being investigated for illegally importing Fokker 27 planes and avoiding duties, although it was not clear whether this allegation included the plane that crashed.

Mr Yater denied that the airline had smuggled the planes into the country. He expected the results of the investigation today.

"I would like to appeal to everyone to be patient and wait for the report," he said"

[Bruce Bindon]

Off record ... I was told that the pilot forgot to turn the fuel selector or shutoff valve to the ON position after it was turned off to refuel the aircraft.

[Pointer]

Also off record......

it where the maintenance fuel shut off switch (both engines) that where switched off. apperantly its not a pilot item to check since they normaly are wired shut.

Off the record offcourse.....

[Bruce Bindon]

I really don't have the answers. I haven't been following it, and haven't been asking questions. I only heard from somebody who's always on the airport (Manila) that one of the pilots failed to turn the fuel selectors back on. It could be just a rumor. It could be the gospel. Don't know for sure. I think most people -- except, of course, the families, crew, and investigators -- have mostly forgotten about it. I don't really hear anybody speaking about it anymore.

[PA-28-180]

BB- This was actually reported (last month I think) on ABS-CBN news as being the cause listed in the ATO accident report. FYI..