Rude Cabin Crew [Archive]

kenoco

11th Nov 2002, 00:06

well guys if it all goes tits up you will have to depend on these low-fares crew to save your life,even though the vast amount of Ryanair crew are just out of nappies and tend to swear a lot inthe cabin(no really,I was on several internal Euro flights during the last couple of weeks,around France,and ALL the crew swore several times during the flight).One of the crew told me that they do about 75 flights a month which works out at about 10 hours a day non stop,5 to 6 days a week,and really the CAA are the people who make these crazy regulations.So really the crew are always tired and Ryanair make these poor people work to the limit.Hence why they are always sooooo depressed.I think its really bad that people who work in much safer places like banks and supermarkets etc,on the ground have more regulations than cabin crew.Lets be fare here its all about money in the low fares area so as long as the airlines are paying up,ye all know what I mean,the hours will be long and the crew will be used and tired and the CAA or IAA will turn a blind eye.I can't imagine what it must be like working for Ryanair or Easyjet,but from the crew I talk to its a situation they would rather get out of.

126.9

11th Nov 2002, 06:14

Please don't talk to me about the cost of the fare! I've paid up to GBP180 for a flight on easyJet! Secondly; I have no doubt that they work their butts off in both of those pathetic outfits. My question however, relates to the reason I percieve there to be a blanket policy of rude and almost bullying behaviour from the cabin crew in both of these companies (I will refrain from calling them airlines!) And I haven't even got to the point of including specific incidents, of which there have been many.

What is it with the philosophy that the minute someone complains about something in aviation; then THEY must be to blame? Get a life! :rolleyes:

cargosales

11th Nov 2002, 08:23

Sorry 126.9. Can't agree with you either.

Haven't flown Easy much but been on lots of MOLs planes in the past twelve months. My own experience has been that Ryanair crew are no better or worse than most other short haul.

Seems to come down to the crew on the day - it's pot luck whether you get a great, motivated crew or one which is busy having a collective sense of humour failure. Happens on all airlines I've been on, both long and short haul.

If you think the FA is being rude, try smiling and being extra polite. Usually does the trick ;)

CS

Cart_tart

11th Nov 2002, 11:53

126.9
YOU seem like you're the type of pax that instantly puts us in foul moods. You're aggressive from the word go. I'll bet you your 180 quid that you're like that on the flights, never say please and thank you, demand rather than ask, treat us like peasants and can't seem to find it in your soul (if you have one) to crack a smile. We are all generally people picked for our personalities. We are there to look after your safety as our no 1 priority and your comfort as no 2. If you're one of THOSE that rolls their eyes, or argues with us when we ask you to put your cabin luggage in a locker, put your seat in the upright position, open your window shade, put your tray table up, ask you to fasten your seatbelt.....should I go on.....we don't do it for the fun of it and forgive us if we look slightly p***ed off when you have infuriated us and acted like a pig for the 10th time that day!
Take a long hard look yourself and at how you treat the crew. Maybe then you'll get the answer you're looking for. :mad:

b747 flightboy

11th Nov 2002, 16:43

Now now girls this is all going too far. 126 person, as you've probably gathered your comments aren't really appreciated. If you find the crew on low cost airlines offensive then I suggest you try a different carrier, you'll find £180 squid doesnt get you very far, and the crew on the bigger airlines can roll their eyes just as well as the rest of them.

Take a chill pill

:p

kenoco

11th Nov 2002, 23:03

Just because the companies are low fares dosn't mean the crew are low on anything.On my travels on low fares airlines I have met some really nice cabin crew.Not all are miserable,and if they are they don't show it.ARev.

126.9

12th Nov 2002, 10:00

Actually no, I'm not like that! I'm the guy who gets aboard without any hand luggage, greets everybody, straps in, watches the demo and then inevitably falls asleep within the first ten minutes of the flight! Usually don't require any food or drinks and prefer to sit down at the rear of the aircraft. Also, as you'll see from my three postings in this thread; I do not launch into personal attacks on them. Nor do I do "Instant Psycho-analysis" of them and post it publically: as you do! Nope, I merely ask the question in an orderly fashion that brings out the true traits of the various levels of society involved in this profession! (As it's done with you) And one other thing before I move on Cart_tart, if they picked you for your personality (as you say they did) why is my safety your number 1 concern? Surely my safety would require a completely different set of personal criteria from your human resources department? Just a thought!

What I am tired of though, is being woken up by cabin-crew, swearing and slagging off the pax, whilst in the rear galley? Quite a common occurence actually! For example: just the other day, a young Ryanair lady told the gentleman sitting next to me, in no friendly manner, that his cardigan (which was on his lap) had to go in the overhead stowage. When the man enquired as to why that was, he was told "beacause it's in the aviation regulations!" Now please! What are we? A bunch of morons that we would believe that nonsense! That was not the end of it though. She then went into the galley and proceeded to relay the story to her colleague. The version she passed on was punctuated with profanity beyond belief! The facts had been distorted, and become charged with emotion. All of this, within earshot of the customer...!? And she's going to take charge of my safety in an emergency? Not a chance!

kenoco

12th Nov 2002, 13:35

you can't hide everything with makeup ,I have also been a passenger around Europe and on Ryanair flights the vulgar swearing coming from cabin crew is terrible,and in several different languages.

Iaingrant

12th Nov 2002, 17:54

Could it be that the man with the cardigan was in row 33 the exit row and that is why she asked him to put it up seen as you sit down the back.

I myself am cabin crew with RYANAIR and no matter how i feel on my first day or the last day of my week i always come in with a smile, but no matter how much you smile pax's can just be so rude and it's does not make you feel any better.

captcat

12th Nov 2002, 19:10

Of course it should have been an overwing exit row. But that's not the point, a pax shouldn't feel imposed without explanation.
I believe the big problem with Ryanair and Easy is just that they are all very young. In a big company, the juniors can learn from the seniors. The most difficult thing about being a C/A is the Human Factor part. So being confronted with pax, they are not trained on how to react.
In my opinion, having flown with them, it is true that most of them really don't look like C/A. They just look like lost kids put in a grown ups game. Especially their Pursers don't impress me much. The other C/A seem to fear them (when I try to talk to them they always look sideways in the direction of the Purser with a scared look). It usually happens when you give too much power, and too soon, to an undertrained person. They abuse of their power. And so did the lady with the pax regarding the cardigan.
And I'm sure demotivation about their working condition doesn't help. I am sure the average Ryanair C/A doesn't feel like greeting pax at the end of a long and unrewarding day with a big smile.

flapsforty

13th Nov 2002, 07:07

Flown Ryanair a few times to get to PPRuNe Bashes. They were cheaper than my staff tickets. And with 2 lovely exeptions, the CC were as described by the number person.
Did I mind? Not at all.

Cheap tickets do not happen by themselves. They are cheap because the company providing them saves on everything it does not deem absolutely necessary.
So if they spend their FA training budget on the flight safety aspects and neglect the customer friendliness part, I can live with that.
If they make young kids pursers while they lack the maturity needed to create a service minded atmosphere on board, I can accept that.
If they work their FAs so hard that they drop from exhaustion, I for one do neither need nor expect a radiant smile from them.
As long as they can open the doors in an emergency, which I am confidant they can, anything else is a bonus.

What worried me far more were the things their pilots told me while we were sitting on the asphalt at Stansted for 2 hours and had time to chat.
So I flew BA to the next Bash.

I am amazed often at people's attitude regarding these carriers.
When nothing in life is free, where do people get the idea that they can fly with an airline that toutes itself as cheap and still recieve the same service one does on a major?

Hint: Tinstaafl! ;)

Zerfas

13th Nov 2002, 10:42

Oh please! It's so easy (pardon the pun) to mass generalise about the low-cost cabin crew. I used to be crew for easyJet and I don't recall one occasion when I was rude to a passenger. I was also a crew trainer, and I know for a fact that the cabin crew are trained to the same extent as any other airline (minus the meals training obviously)!

126.9
In my experience, regardless of the airline you fly with, you will find crew who are good and crew who are bitter and rude. From B.A. to Buzz.....and needless to say-Behaviour Breeds Behaviour, so I'd put it to you that if you would just get down from your moral high-horse, you'd probably find the cabin crew would treat you a little better. I'll even provide you with an escape slide to get down, coz its a long way to fall!

:mad:

flapsforty

13th Nov 2002, 11:21

Whooooooooooah Zerfas! :eek:
No offence intended at all; if I've given it anyway, please accept my apologies.

The above first of all my personal experience.
After those trips described, I was susprised at the attitude I had encountered. So I tried to figure out the reasons for it.
Believing that almost all FAs get into the work because they like people, I always think that when service is less than expected, there must be weighty grounds for it.

Very few people in our line of work are rude for the fun of it. Quite the contrary, most FAs manage to stay pleasant under circumstances where an ordinary person would have a screaming fit. Or break down crying.
So when FA behaviour actually is rude, it makes me speculate.
The conclusions of my speculations is what you read above.
You obviously know more about easyjet than I do, since I've never flown with them nor worked for them.

I aøso grant you that my anecdotal evidence from 6 trips with R is not conclusive by any means. But it did make me wonder. Seeing how careful and strict they were on the safety front, and how surly and bad tempered they were on all other fronts led me to believe that SEP training hab been excellent but service tarining less emphasised.
May-be I was wrong.
So please, without antagonising anyone, could you possibly tell me if my experience with them was a-typical?
And if it wasn't, as some other posts here seem to indicate, could you possibly share with us what the reason for the less than sterling attitude could be?
I'm not taking the p!ss here, I am genuinely interested. And if my conclusions as reached above are wrong, I'm happy to amend them.

maninblack

13th Nov 2002, 12:54

I for one have not seen any trend for rudemess bewteen airline types except that on the "low cost" ones the staff are generally busier and slightly more abrupt because of it. I vertainly have never seen crew on a low cost being rude.

If I was going to generalise I would say that the least friendly cabin crew have been BA although saying that I have met some delightful BA crew for whom nothing was too much trouble. I don't blame the crew for this, it is a management attitude that demoralises and produces a lack of interest amongst some crew.

The friendliest crews I have come across as a rule have been on United and American on internal US flights. In mitigation though they were perhaps nice because they don't get many young Englishmen in a suit flying and so I stand out from the crowd.

My long winded point is that in general, smile and the world smiles with you. Whilst most airline think theat they pay their staff to smile I have found that if I smile first then the one I get back is genuine, not corporate. I think it may have been Flaps who nailed me earlier this year for referring to a flight attendant as "two legged in flight entertainment" but in seriousness it is not a job I could do, I'm too miserable and I admire anyone who works those hours.

FlapsOne

13th Nov 2002, 14:52

126.9

You cannot have a cardigan, jacket or anything else on your lap for take off or landing. It is a rule and it's there for a reason.

In the event of an evacuation on the ground being necessary, for whatever reason, any lose item will undoubtedly fall to the floor and instantly become a hazard to other pax trying to make an escape.

It's potentially dangerous and could cost lives!

So you decide for yourself whether you are 'a bunch of morons who would believe this nonsense' or not. Whether you like it or not - it IS a regulation!

Why must you continue to display your ignorance with such postings?

captcat

13th Nov 2002, 18:20

I am sure 126.9 was not referring to that but to the tone of the answer. Anyway, "that's in the regulations" is not an answer to why a cardigan or anything else cannot be on an overwing exit, at least for the average pax. It's just a way to shut up someone. It's like when your parents tell you "you must do it because I told you" when you're little. And it doesn't work on adults! Usually adults whant to know the reasons. Sometimes because they are genuinely interested, sometimes because they feel like losing face in front of the wife/girlfriend or wathever on obeying an order they don't understand without a reason. They are just hoping for a smile and a reason to make them feel they are not just being imposed.
A good C/A usually knows how to avoid that kind of clash with a pax. We are the ones paid and trained to take care of them, they are not paid to smile at us (but that doesn't mean they can be impolite).
I personally have never flown with Easy. But as I said I have flown with Ryanair and without generalising, on MY flights C/A really didn't seem to have never attended a Human Factor class.
Do you in Easy? (and it's not a rhetoric question, I really would like to know).
In my company we also have classes in Psychology of Service, where they analize the relation C/A-pax step by step to try to avoid common mistakes and the degeneration of a transaction. Even if the pax is rude and doesn't smile at you!
I personally doubt they run such classes in Ryanair, and if they do I suggest they fire the teacher. But excuse me for doubting, but I really don't think that in low costs they have the same training than in, say, KLM, or BA, especially on the customer care side.
And please Zerfas, stop trying to make people feel guilty for having been the victim of bad manners. We C/A should know better than being rude to people, it's part of our job!
I personally had no clash with anyone in Ryanair, but can take notice of what's going on around, how people are in their job etc, especially since we are supposed to be on the same branch :D

FlapsOne

13th Nov 2002, 18:59

A few points

captcat

If you re-read 126.9's comments that's EXACTLY what he/she said. If something else was meant, something else should have been said!

The CCs on the low costs receive exactly the same training in ALL aspects of the job. I've seen both sides, it's a fact.

With 20-30 mins to turnround a 737 there isn't time to explain the background to regulations. Simply state the regulation and monitor/ensure compliance.

I don't go around other companies questioning their rules and regs so why do so many (it seems) airline pax think they can? The ever increasing size and weight of cabin baggage is yet another example.

nojacketsrequired

15th Nov 2002, 18:34

The attitude of many crew on flights comes from the ICCM/No1 or whatever else we're called!!..take it easy crew.
I have never had any probs with crew being rude only on a few occasions when they have had to ask 'a suit' for the third time to
restow their bag/laptop etc ,and then they put behind their legs and don't like being told it can't stay there.

It is not the airline it is the individual crew member,I work for BA and work with some great people who are good at their job and are fun to be with and I have had the pleasure of flying on 'me hols' with my colleagues on charter companies and found them great too(Britannia,Monarch and Air2000 all brill).

NJR.

Bacardi and Coke please and make mine a large one..oh it is!!:D :D

Xenia

16th Nov 2002, 07:22

It doesn't matter who they work for, I consider WE all are Cabin Crew, and I respect and care for everyone the same, making no difference by airline (mayor, charter or low cost) or by type of aircraft flown...
First at all I'd love to say that as far as Cabin Crew is concerned... not all of us have the luck to "be born" in a perfect airline (well, maybe there's not such a thing, so let's call it a good airline!) and therefore many Cabin Crew see themself in the need of "gipsy around" airlines in the search of something suitable. In my personal opinion I've been always the same .... from a flag carrier to the cheappy UK charter airline with tendency of gloryfication of themself (what a bad time of my life ... I even wore than black and yellow hat! :rolleyes: ) I have the "luck" of flying for someone I enjoy and appreciate now, but
I also believe that what suit one of us may not suit the other, and some people I know are happy working for low cost carriers or for charter airlines.
The only thing I'd like to say here is that I expect respect for all my collegues, whoever they work for!

TightSlot

16th Nov 2002, 08:26

I'm not quite sure where this thread is going, beyond accepting that some people are more difficult, or less good at their job, than others.

IMHO There are some answers however:

Cabin Crew tend to be consistent - those that have "problem" pax always seem to do so: Those that rarely have "problem" pax, don't. This should be telling us something about the Crew member involved. There are some crew members that I dread flying with, since I know they will generate customer relations problems that I will have to resolve later. They may be outstanding in some other area of performance, maybe their management of bars is spot-on, or their galley management superb: sadly their weakest area is in people management. I can't believe that this kind of crew member isn't present in all companies across the world.

Passengers, on the other hand, are inconsistent: That's because they are human beings. Just as in real life, walking down the street, some people have a good attitude, some don't and we have to deal with that. Cabin Crew have a right to expect that they be dealt with in a courteous and considerate manner, and so do passengers. Cabin Crew and passengers are the same animal, not distinct - each can become the other.

I often find that some crew tend to put on an attitude different to normal whenever they put on their uniform. They stop talking "to people", and start talking "at passengers". This behaviour is re-enforced by the use of "Sir" & "Madam" - phrases that are almost never used outside of the work context, and serve only to put distance between the crew member and the customer. This divide is further re-enforced by the fact that we stand, they sit: We wear uniform, they don't: We are at home on the a/c, they aren't. My experience is that simply addressing passengers in a normal, natural way, combined with a little thought about what you are saying goes a long way - "because it's in the aviation regulations!" complies with neither of these criteria.

Regardless of the market sector (Lo-cost, Hi-cost, Charter etc.) minimum standards of behaviour apply to all on board. Swearing in the cabin is unacceptable, from crew or passengers. Audible personal comments from the galley, ditto. In short, courtesy, thought and consideration for others should be present from all on board (passengers and crew), whatever the ticket price.

(Short pause as pig flies past window....) - Sigh! :(

126.9

16th Nov 2002, 09:45

Actually, the cardigan issue occured in the third row from the rear. No emergency exit. And I can guarentee you; there is NO REGULATION banning one from having a cardigan on the lap (or an inflight magazine, or telephone, or pen, walkman etc) in such a row. Many aircraft actually have a coat hook as an integral part of the tray-table locking mechanism fitted for just that purpose.

Further; there is NO excuse for profanity in public, and particularly in the manner described here! Cabin crew do not have the right to discuss their passengers in this manner.

The personal attacks, launched by a number of you. at me are simply an affirmation of exactly the type of behaviour I have described here in the first place. After 20 years in aviation, one point has sunk home to me: we, in this industry cannot take criticism! Of ANY sort! Here it has been proven again.

In the meantime; I hope to God that those children never have to prove themselves in their primary role!

Enough said!

Yeah, I think you said enough! Xenia

Tiger

16th Nov 2002, 12:08

I remember being a pax on an Airtours flight. The crew would not allow paxs to read newspapers and magazines by the o/w exits for take off or landing.
I believe the Cabin Manager had a bee in her bonnet about this and enforced it though out all companies they worked.
As far as I know there is no rule about reading newspapers etc at the o/w and no other airline has operated this policy apart from where this manager worked.

TightSlot

16th Nov 2002, 12:48

Aren't we back to tolerance and courtesy here? I don't think that there is a specific rule about newspapers at an overwing on take off/landing, but it seems to me to be a not totally unreasonable request to make (assuming it was done politely and intelligently). It's hardly a significant imposition, to stop reading a newspaper for 5 -10 minutes. For that matter it's not an imposition to stop reading it during the safety demo either, but let's not go there.

In the absence of legislation, the Cabin Manager is wrong to implement his/her own interpretation of the rules: However, it strikes me as a matter of regret that people should be reading newspapers at this time in the first place, and complaining about it in the second. To me, it is a matter of common sense. Call me old-fashioned...

Xenia

16th Nov 2002, 14:12

Ok, just to let you know I am on a few days off, so I'll be watching this closely!
Please behave! especially those of you NOT working in the industry and expecting to have the knowledge of whole world! :rolleyes:
TightSlot I follow you in the "old-fashioned" way to be ;)

FlapsOne

16th Nov 2002, 17:00

126.9

I am interested to read that you can guarantee (no matter how YOU choose to spell it!) that no such regulation exists.

Sadly, in your extensive research, you should have looked at :

Air Navigation Order
Statutory Instrument 1989 No. 2004
Part 5
Para 37-1

This is qualified by Part E of the JAA Operations manual.

The fact that manufacturers of aircraft choose to put built in pegs for coats does not make them safe to use. How many aircraft still fly around with ashtrays in the seat arms?

If you drop an item of clothing during an evacuation it immediately becomes a hazard to other passengers. It is dangerous - plain and simple. Furthermore it doesn't matter which row you sit in.

For the SCCM to report 'Cabin Secure' to the Captain, for take off or landing all such items MUST be stowed in accordance with the approved safety procedures for that aircraft/airline. Not in accordance with the WISHES of the passengers or CC.

Regarding your comments on the use of audible profanity in public - I couldn't agree more!

126.9

16th Nov 2002, 18:39

My extensive research (as you put it) has revealed the following:
1. The regulation to which you refer is located HERE! (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19892004_en_7.htm#mdiv37)
2. It pertains to aircraft registered in the UK only.
3. It has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
4. The JAA do not (appear to) publish a document called Part E. They may however require that your company produce such a document. I will follow this up with them on Monday and report back.

As far as my spelling goes: It is my experience that comments regarding spelling are usually dished out by mono-lingual individuals, who would have no idea regarding the difficulty involved in FLUENCY in as many as 3 languages!
:D Best regards!

FlapsOne

16th Nov 2002, 21:22

(ii) take all reasonable steps to ensure that those items of baggage in the passenger compartment which he reasonably considers ought by virtue of their size, weight or nature to be properly secured are properly secured and, in the case of an aircraft capable of seating more than 30 passengers, that such baggage is either stowed in the passenger compartment stowage spaces approved by the Authority for the purpose or carried in accordance with the terms of a written permission granted by the Authority which permission may be granted subject to such conditions as the Authority thinks fit;

You don't think the bit about size, weight and nature is relevant?

Any company operating on a public transport AOC is required by JAA to produce a series of Operations Manuals. Part E relates to Cabin Crew and Cabin Safety Procedures (plus some other important issues). The layout and content of these manuals is dictated by JAA. Individual companies may impose, if they wish, more restrictive procedures than those laid down by JAA, but not less restrictive.

If a regulation is in that manual, it is approved by the Authority, and it cannot be ignored - no matter how nice the cardigan is!

I am fluent in 2 languages, being English by birth and having lived and worked in Germany for 6 years. What's your point exactly?

Chopper-Pilot-AU

16th Nov 2002, 21:52

Jeezz get a grip people. i think you are all missing the point here, Remember you are also in a customer focused enviroment, IE: No Customers! NO Job...

I travell extensivley and can't count the number of times i have met damm outright rude cabin crew,,, who think there **** dont stink.. i'm here to tell you it does...Glorified wait staff....

Most cant seem to evan do that correctly, so before you go bagging the Customer, just remember why you are even there... yes to serve them/us/me...

you might think you are more important,, but like i said.. the customer pays your wages...you might do well to remember that..

:mad:

qfcabin

17th Nov 2002, 03:16

In every job ever known to mankind, there are people who are not quite right for it..the disgruntled pax complaining on this thread are proving that is the case with cabin crew worldwide. BUT, we did know that. Not every job known to mankind has a forum open to the publicwho can abuse them for the actions of some of their less enthusiastic colleagues...it does get tedious! One guy..one cardigan..give us a break!!

Chopper-Pilot-AU

17th Nov 2002, 04:44

yes you are correct in what you say, BUT remember the its because of pax! that you are even there to begin with.....i feel sure in saying that you yourself when not working etc are a customer of some sort,,Would you put up with rude staff? poor service etc.. and its all very well for certain crew to state "oh well you get what you pay for,,IE discount tickets etc, but in the end its not the price we pay as a customer that has or should have any bearing on the standard of service provided!!!
Staff can make or break your business and its been proven time and time again that word of mouth goes a long way towards building good will...
Some have said " oh but we are here because its a safety issue,, yes i agree up to a point, but think about it! when was the last time you had in flight emergency that required you to call upon the training you received to be F/A? so for the most part you are in a customer service role, serve drinks, meals,and generally ensure your pax have a enjoyable experience...
some of you might find it useful to watch some of the John Clease training videos with regard to handling abrupt or rude pax,, buy hey the pax pay the bills....................................................... .....

Safe Flying.....

jockmcstrap

17th Nov 2002, 06:09

You were warned once in another forum. This is completely unnaceptable, and you are no longer welcome on these forums. Take your pathetic opinions elsewhere, and stop wasting the time of the moderators and contributors here.

Sick Squid
Forum Moderator

126.9

17th Nov 2002, 08:42

That's exactly my Point! (Not the jugs part)

"take all REASONABLE steps to ensure that those items of BAGGAGE in the passenger compartment which he REASONABLY considers ought by virtue of their SIZE, WEIGHT OR NATURE ...bla, bla, bla...

The point is: read the whole rule and a number of things become clear. This rule pertains to the commander's additional duties on board. As the commander; it is my educated estimation that a passenger with a cardigan on his lap, is statistically responsible for less deaths on board than say.... muslim men carrying knives and aged between 25 & 35! So YES, I don't think their is any relevance in the size, weight or nature statement pertaining to the cardigan.

I therefore state for the record that there is definitely no regulation stating that a man may not have his cardigan on his lap during flight.

Furthermore, this statement is drawn from the UK ANO. The limitations of which are; they do not pertain to EI registered aircraft, or aircraft registered anywhere other than the UK. Also, your idea that EJ or Ryanair may have more restrictive policies on board due to their own superior safety requirements is ludicrous! They are PURELY in the business of making money.

For the criticism of my spelling: why don't you write all your replies in German, and I do mine in English? :D

Tiger

17th Nov 2002, 09:22

126.9

You seem to know all the useful websites, such as ANO etc. Do you mind giving a list of these websites or lead me to where I can find them.

Thanks

Sick Squid

17th Nov 2002, 13:13

The tone of this one is heading south rapidly. Remember, play the ball not the player, and keep it clean and within respectful grounds even if you are in disagreement with the points you are engaging.

One of the beauties of the PPRuNe CC forum is that it tends to be one of the most respectful, and friendly on the site, with minimum intervention required to maintain that tone. Lets keep it that way, shall we?

126.9

17th Nov 2002, 14:45

Sure. The JAA are HERE (http://www.jaa.nl), the HMSO HERE (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/) and the UK CAA HERE! (http://www.caa.co.uk/) For any others, feel free to e-mail me. :)

FlapsOne

17th Nov 2002, 15:00

Also, your idea that EJ or Ryanair may have more restrictive policies on board due to their own superior safety requirements is ludicrous!

I never said anything about EZ or FR. It is however fact that any airline, anywhere in the world has the absolute right to impose more restrictive policies than the national authority itself imposes. Any such difference must be included in the company approved ops manuals which in turn are endorsed by the JAA, FAA or appropriate authority.

If the basis of your argument is that the word 'cardigan' does not appear in the ANO or any other national regulation then, I suggest, you have a weak argument.

126.9

17th Nov 2002, 17:40

No, that certainly is not the basis of my argument. The basis of my argument ON THAT POINT is that you have interpereted the reading of the law to suit yourself: Your own inexperienced, and very loud self (now that I base on having followed a few threads back and read a large number of your recent posts)!

My argument goes to the point that I have personally been shunted around by very young cabin crew on EZY & FR without provocation. That I have personally witnessed naive and inexperienced crew make absolute fools of themselves and lose all credibility amongst passengers on these flights. My argument goes to the point that in aviation, it is difficult for most to take criticism constructively, even if it is meant so. My argument goes to the point that cost cutting inevitably ends up corner-cutting. My argument arrives at the point that your argumentative ignorance is irelevant and without any intellectual basis!

And no, you don't have to make an even bigger fool of yourself by trying to respond in your broken German.

FlapsOne

17th Nov 2002, 19:53

If you dislike the treatment you receive on any airline, or if you disagree with their interpretation of regulations, may I suggest you donate your fare to another carrier....you won't be missed!

You may have noticed that this is an English language forum by the way.

I refuse to sink to your level of insults.

If you cannot make a reasoned argument leave these fora to those that can.

bye.

Zerfas

17th Nov 2002, 21:57

I decided to sit back and watch this forum unfold as I realised early on that this was going to attract some antagonistic waste of time, and sure enough......

However, 126.9, I must give you credit for looking into your facts and not just spouting off deliberatley to p**s us off.

The way I see it....I dont request anything of a passenger that I dont think reasonable (unless it's in the manual) and if questioned by said passenger about why Im asking them to do something, I will endeavour to explain. Its has to be said however, that there's not always time to give an in-depth explanation (nor is it sometimes appropriate). In that case, I try to return to the passenger at a later time, and then explain.:)

maninblack

18th Nov 2002, 12:56

What the passengers often fail to understand, and sadly in this litigation environment the crew should not really be telling them, is that in the regulations the term "reasonable" does not apply to what the passenger may feel is "reasonable" or what the cabin crew feel is "reasonable" but as a statute regulation it applies to what the regulatory authority are prepared to advise a court of law is "reasonable" That is where "REASONABLE" is determined.

Secondly the air navigation orders issued by the CAA are generally a pain in the a^$e but are there for a good reason, often to fll a gap in international regulations that will be dealt with at a future date.

As to the waiting skills of cabin crew.....they carry out this duty as a service to passengers and as a commercial conduit for their employer, if they sometimes don't do it too well it is worth remembering that the real reason they are there is to get my little pink body out of thet aircraft in one piece with all systems functioning. if some of you would rather sit on board a burning aircraft with a waiter from The Ritz then best of luck, I'll stick with the nice lady with the lifejacket.

Cello

18th Nov 2002, 13:54

I've been following this thread for a while and am still not quite sure what to make of it - the original point seems to have been swamped with other aspects. However...

I have two views in general - one as a pax and another as someone who works closely with CAA, DTI, Operators and a/c manufacturers.

As a pax - yes, I am disappointed when service levels seem to be left on the ground. However, we all have bad days, don't we? Or are FAs exempt? However, I believe that if it were required, the FAs would be making sure we were alright, as much as might be possible.

But, from the point of view of a pax who might fly once a month or so with different operators, they will find that the 'regulations' appear to be different, and don't think it unreasonable to ask 'why?'. These could lead to general narky exchanges, unlikely to end happily ever after.

But being a regular jump-seat occupant, and even more regular pax - I am amazed at the general 'shut-up and belt-up' approach from some FAs. I do wish that FAs would recognise that the possibility exists that one or more of their pax have flown more than once.

Pax do NOT know that CAA, DTI, the operator, the leasing company, the manufacturer, JAA, JAR (and there are probably more) all contribute to the 'Regulations' and not all of them are cast in stone.

Take EZ and FR - both 73 operators - safety briefing is different why - 'regulations?' - whose? In this case it's operator. Is that the case with cardigans in row 3?, maybe - maybe not.

But many are cast in stone and that's for a reason - ie the a/c doesn't burst into a ball of flames on take-off, it doesn't fly like a brick and finally, descends gracefully to a safe landing. Then there's the usual rammy of people desperate to get on with their lives, trying to get off before the thing has stopped.

What am I trying to say? Hmm.

Consideration. From both sides. Irritable (or 'I know about planes' attitude) pax are going to p!ss FAs off. I find it best not to do this.

FAs - you do a great job, but sometimes you've got people on board that have flown with every major operator in Europe, on all the major manufacturers, and we've picked up a thing or two along the way about flying. If someone like me or 126.9 with a little knowledge (always a dangerous thing) oversteps the mark - just tell them which regulation it is - that way they might learn something and you retain a calm and cheery cabin, and less stressed yourself!

If I've offended anyone with this post - I apologise in advance - that is not the aim!

I will say in conclusion (yes I've finally got there :)) that I have observed FAs being treated absolutely abominably by either 'I'm superior' executive b!tches or by arrogant, sexist pigs. No matter what anyone does for a living, no-one should have to tolerate this.

FAs - I couldn't do your job - but I'm grateful that you can.

Cello

FlapsOne

18th Nov 2002, 17:56

Cello

An excellent post.

I agree that many operators even using the same type of aircraft have differing regulations. It has always been so and, I suspect, will always remain. Life would be a whole lot easier all round if we shared exactly the same rules and regulations.

As long as the FAA/JAA permit operators to further restrict their regulations there is little prospect for change. Overall it's probably a good thing but can give rise to 'grey areas' as far as the travelling public is concerned.

In essence the 'Authorites' legislate on those matters it considers to be essential for safety whilst the operators further legislate on what they consider 'appropriate' to their company style.

Different safety briefings for the same type of aircraft can be confusing but, legally, as long as each contains the minimum required safety information then that's OK as far as JAA/FAA is concerned.

Cabin Crew are in the front line here. If one airline allows them to carry an item of clothing on their lap during take off or landing but another doesn't, it's the poor CC who has to explain most of the argument that has been running on this thread!

Obviously that's impractical - so a polite statement to the effect that it is a company policy/regulation should suffice.

You are so right to say that CC do a great job, often in very difficult circumstances. Occaisionally they let themselves down by, perhaps, being a little less than polite - but don't we all? I have been in this business for 24 years and have only on very few occaisions witnessed anything like what was being described earlier in this thread as almost commonplace. That statement goes for both the high cost and low cost ends of the market as I consder myself fortunate enough to have significant experience of both.

Well said!

126.9

18th Nov 2002, 18:15

Well, I'm glad that this post has finally taken back control from the hijacker!

The points made in the last few postings, in my humble experience, are all founded and based on the principle, which started the thread in the first place.

On my LAST FR flight, I sat in a row next to a gent who had a PPL and apparently a few hundred hours. Also in my opinion, he had a reasonable level of knowledge of the aviation industry. Without me offering too much input, I found that he was as disillusioned as I was with the mushroom treatment. Also, the high incidence of blatant profanity on this and other flights, appeared to shock as many as heard it in the first place. Of course this does not mean that all cabin crew behave in this way. Far from it! It does however mean that I personally am happier taking my business elsewhere. I've done exactly that and am happy to say that the AF crews (in general) approach and treat me in a way I find amicable, and deserving of a loyal customer. After all, that is what I am!

The fact that I hold ATPL's issued by three different authorities, have flown more than 10000 hours as pilot-in-command in the public transport category, and graduated from an aeronautical university, perhaps make me more sensitive to the idiot explanation. Granted, procedures vary from airline to airline and that is to be expected. What is not expected (by me anyway) are the gross differences in procedure and passenger handling in the same aircraft, let alone airline!

I rest my case.

Chopper-Pilot-AU

22nd Nov 2002, 03:49

I agree with most that you have stated, except for the stuff about how highly qualified you are etc,, really who give a rats ar%e
In the end when we travel we are customers, PAX as we are called, but in the end with out PAX the airline no longer exists.....

Something most of the Cabin crew have forgoten, I find that taking the cabin crews name and details and forwarding a strong letter of complaint to the Airline works wonders......................:rolleyes:

TightSlot

22nd Nov 2002, 10:05

This thread gets more depressing by the moment.

Some FA's are good, some are not: Most are in the middle. Some would benefit from more training. Some (even the good ones) have bad days when they make mistakes or say things that they should not. This is hardly revolutionary stuff. I'm sure that almost anybody who flies regularly can come up with a true story about how some FA failed to come up to the standard required.

What is surprising is the level of vitriol directed at FA's in general on this thread. There is an underlying contempt from some contributors which is not attractive to read.

If I, as an FA, were to post a similar thread about pilots in a pilots forum, the flames might well reach firestorm levels.

Isn't it time that this thread was allowed to die a natural death?

Chopper-Pilot-AU
I find that taking the cabin crews name and details and forwarding a strong letter of complaint to the Airline works wonders

How do you know ? It is very rare for a customer relations department in any industry to contact a customer with details of specific disciplinary action taken against an individual as a result of a complaint. Your post makes it sound as if you are a regular writer of these letters. Could you share with us all how many FA's have been disciplined, suspended, demoted or dismissed as a result of your comments. What action taken against an errant FA would satisfy your requirements for justice?

flyblue

22nd Nov 2002, 12:33

tightslot, I don't agree.
I think that even if a subjet brings out the worse of some people (I am not talking about insults), it should be allowed to live. I am genuinely interested (like most) in other people's ideas, even if they don't coincide with mine. I am even interested in knowing that some people may concoct bizarre beliefs about Crime and Punishment like the one Chopper Pilot expresses. After all isn't he one of those guys we have to deal with in everyday life?
Are we saying that we are not able to discuss about a subject like civilised people? I think we are grown up enough to ignore the stirrers and the short sighted and take what's good in the bunch.
I know the subject is very delicate, and there is the danger of hurting feelings. But if I, or someone else, is wrong, I am more than willing to change my mind with the help of contribution from other members that may know something or have an insight I don't have. This is a more important thing in my opinion than the fear of discussing an unpopular subject. Stupidity, short-mindedness and pettiness are born of ignorance. So we need to exchange our knowledge and points of view and be strong enough to put up with the fact that someone may have a different one. And maybe try to understand.

And if the thread is withering folks, let's revive it with some intelligent posts.

Chopper-Pilot-AU

22nd Nov 2002, 13:10

CAPTCAT,

TIGHTSLOT,

FLYBABE,

Your response to my post is typically what i expected to recieve, you obviously have a problem with exepting the fact that without paying customers you no longer have a JOB!

As i have stated through out this post customers are the life blood of any business, just because you are a F/A what makes you any different?

I have entertained many a F/A in my home and socialise with many others, they all have tails to tell about the pax who really pissed them off etc etc, but in the end its the ones who value their job! consider themselves profeshionals that i admire, it can be a thankless job and not one that i could do,

I have no problem with F/A's who do their job to the best of their ability, My sister is a Qantas Purser for gods sake...yes i hear all the stories and i have experienced for myself the poor service that many provide, I am the typical pax that sits down shuts up and generally enjoys the experience but when i find that F/A's are being rude, and not treating me with the respect i deserve then i complain. as i have every right to do!
When that fails i vote with my feet and my wallet...................

remember you are providing a service! Maybe some of you who have a problem with that need to find a position were you are not in contact with the people who pay your wages...........................

TightSlot

22nd Nov 2002, 13:35

Chopper-Pilot-AU

A fascinating rant that sheds more light on the writer than on the subject.

I've just checked back on my previous posts and am unable to locate anything that warrants your response. May I respectfully suggest that you read (carefully) what has been written: At no stage have I, or anybody else, condoned FA rudeness or poor performance, quite the reverse. P.S. FLYBABE does not appear to have posted on this thread.

If you respond, please include an answer to the questions asked.

Flyblue

I'm not suggesting that the thread be closed down, but that it be allowed to whither on its own. By posting here, I'm helping keep the thing going, so this will be my last post on this thread, whatever happens.

flyblue

22nd Nov 2002, 15:10

Tightslot,
posts like the ones you sign are the reason why threads like this should go on. If someone lowers the tone, what I wish is that someone like you post to raise the level and articulate a good answer. Please keep posting.

Chopper,

what's your problem? It seems you are taking up a defensive position. As tightslot says, no one ever said F/As are allowed to be rude to pax. It is something I can't bear myself.
I was just objecting to the way you approach the problem. If a company has rude F/A (I mean a widespread problem, not the occasional black sheep) it's the company and not the F/A him/herself who has a problem. I'd rather turn to the company to inquire as why it keeps its F/A so unsatisfied and obviously ill customer care trained. Writing a letter to bash the occasional F/A won't change a thing. Four years ago I flew BA longhaul ( I had bought the ticket instead of going for an ID for personal reasons), and I was so impressed by the F/As that I wrote a letter ending with "...whatever you are doing to keep your staff so well trained and motivated, keep on doing it because it works". Good F/As go with good F/As management. (By the way, a good management should also chose people-oriented F/As).
And ultimately, as you said, you will chose with your wallet (you may chose AF like 126.9, nothing to object :D ).

Xenia

22nd Nov 2002, 18:25

Obviously the main idea of posting in a forum is to let others know your ideas, and to know what other people think about a certain topic.
I believe we are all adults and capable of a good "ideas exchange", otherwise we won't be here posting.
By my own experience I do agree with capcat 100% that not all trainings are the same, and that companies with a high turnover of CC leave new ones with no one experienced enough to learn from. An initial training changes from airline to airline, but the real learning process carries on "on line".
Let's keep the conversation on ;)

Chopper-Pilot-AU

22nd Nov 2002, 21:08

A typo on my part with regard to flybabe, should have been flyblue.........

Sarcsasm is the lowest form of wit !!

i have voiced my oppinion and dont believe there is much more to say, I have also had some wonderful flights and also on B/A and QF.

But have most of the time the crew appear to have the attitude of i cant wait to get off this aircraft and when performing the meal service behave like they are serving meals at the zoo..................

As for me writing a letter of complaint to Airlines when i receice poor service! what would you have me do! ?

Like i said before you are a customer service based industry, i guess you dont agree, and there lies the problem......................

if you are willing to except poor service, bad manners, and generally rude crew thats up to you, but for the rest of us there is some form of redress..................................................... ...........
funny if airlines didnt think that service was important i wonder why they have a customer service and complaints dept??
also with out customers making complaints when this happens how is the airline able to single out the bad apples? and importantly fix the problem by way of more training etc...........oh i guess they must be mind readers like the rest of us,,,,we all have bad days, i also work in a customer service enviroment even though i am the capt i always remember that the customer is paying.....
I have not at anytime said ALL F/A'S are a problem! seems to me that you TIGHTSLOT have the attitude problem....

Lozza2002

22nd Nov 2002, 21:20

Chopper Pilot

Whats the real problem here? Tell us your real beef with F/As. Its obvious that you have experienced something not to your liking and have decided to tar all F/As with the same brush. Do you have any nice flying experiences?...we'd like to know. And your sister is a purser is she?..well you should know better. Do you travel on her concession? and if so voting with your wallet wont make the slightest bit of difference, im sure of that. So please give it a rest, you made your point so try and relax a bit. We all know their are bad seeds in every industry but rest assured you are talking about a very small minority as the vast majority are excellent representatives of their company.

:) :)

Chopper-Pilot-AU

22nd Nov 2002, 23:24

I think its you that has the problem.!

Whats the real problem here? Tell us your real beef with F/As. Its obvious that you have experienced something not to your liking and have decided to tar all F/As with the same brush. Do you have any nice flying experiences?...we'd like to know. And

What part of my posts do you not understand, did you you in fact read any of them? it appears not! ......................................................
At no stage have i decided to tar ALL F/A's with the same brush as you state, but hey if the caps fits then wear it !!

Yes i have had many enjoyable flying experiences, met some great F/A's and sadly have met some real A/Holes,
What has my sister being a Purser have to do with my oppinions ( Please do tell ) i am sure it will make facinating reading............

Oh an no i dont use staff travel benefits, so dont even go there!

Xenia

23rd Nov 2002, 16:37

Chopper-Pilot-AU ... fly down baby :eek:
Uhmmm .... just posted yesterday about having adult and mature conversations! what's next?? bla bla black sheep or the wheels on the bus?? :rolleyes:

Xenia

24th Nov 2002, 15:43

Sarcasim or sarcasm? excuse me Chopper but not being British it gets difficult to me to guess meanings of words I don't know and that I can't even find in the dictionary! :confused: :rolleyes:
(Same for stoop) :o

Regarding Moderators ... yes, I am a dictator, we all know it, and I am very proud of it!
So be aware Chopper as it takes me a sec to ban you!

Now, shall we get back to the original topic?

Chopper-Pilot-AU

24th Nov 2002, 18:57

Edited by Xenia
Reasons:
1) Spelling :rolleyes:
2) I said "back to the original topic" and NOT behave like kids and argue to each others! :eek:
3) Just to remain inside the topic... being rude! :rolleyes: to both moderator (moi :D) and fellow ppruners.
Chopper, this was your very last chance! next time you are out of our Forum! :mad:

Xenia

24th Nov 2002, 19:46

Ok, hopefully the message to get back to the original post is clear now. If this will keep degenerating I'll have no other choice but to close the topic, which I don't really like as an idea. I explained before we all have the right to exchange ideas an opinions, but in a polite, mature and civilized manner.
Both Sick Squid and myself have said many times to play the ball and not the player, so please stick to it.
Ciao

rai

24th Nov 2002, 22:57

I, like 126.9, used to wonder why a lot of cabin crew on my flights seemed to be very rude or abrupt with me or my fellow pax. I have to admit that i fell under the category of passengers (perhaps through my own arrogance or from generalisations in our society) who were under the impression that cabin crew were nothing more than waitors/waitresses in the sky and deserved to be treated as such. That of course didnt mean i was always rude to them as im not particularly rude to waitors/waitresses on the ground - however there were occassions where i felt that i was spoken to in an unnecessarily abrupt manner when asked to switch off my walkman or stow my table for landing for example and therefore think that all crew were stuck up gits who are out to annoy me.

I consider myself as someone who knows a little bit about flying as I am training towards a PPL, i recently graduated with first class honours in aeronautical engineering and i was selected to train on a pilot cadetship.

However, after the unfortunate events of september 11th and the subsequent suspension of pilot training i now find myself at the back of an aircraft, wearing a rather unflattering bar jacket and trying desperately hard to serve tea and coffee without spilling it over myself and passengers around me. Having been on-line for a few months now, i can only say that my view of cabin crew and their profession has changed dramatically. The one thing that stood out for me during training was the amount of things we learn to minimise the risk of injury and death to passengers.

Yes, it is a customer service role and yes, profanity is unacceptable in the cabin (and also in the galley - sound travels surprisingly well from the back of an a/c). However, having experienced the feeling of waking up at 4am for the fourth day in a row, being on your 3rd sector with one more to go and having to politely ask for the 5th time that day for someone to sit back down and refrain from using the toilet when the seatbelt sign has come on during turbulence for their own safety, i can understand why it can be easy to let your guard slip and give an abrupt response, which is perhaps not as polite as it should be, to someone who clearly has no respect for you and your sound advice (since at the end of the day you're nothing more than just a waiter in the sky). I could give an explanation involving Newton's laws of motion that if the aircraft suddenly drops 100ft that the body will want to stay pretty much where it is and will therefore head towards the ceiling of the aircraft at the same rate at which the aircraft is descending, causing significant injury - but that shouldnt be required and may do more harm than good. Of course i would love to explain things in detail regarding why we ask pax to do certain things at certain times to someone who genuinely wants to know (im a bit of a engi-nerd when it comes to it) but usually there just isnt time.

So it seems the moral of my protracted and somewhat pointless ramblings is that all passengers should become cabin crew! Well no, but I guess i can understand arguments from both sides. There will be times that crew are unnecessarily rude and that is unacceptable - but having now seen things from the 'other side' i can confidently say there will also be just as many passengers who are rude and also behave in an unacceptable (and sometimes stupid) manner - thats life. At the end of the day if a member of crew asks you to put your cardigan in the overhead stowage (regardless of any specific reference to cardigans from the regulatory bodies - or lack of) its more than likely that the cabin crew member is picturing that rather disturbing video from training of a mock evacuation with passengers climbing over each other in sheer panic - deciding that a cardigan strewn across the aisle will do little to help matters. Its up to the maturity of the crew to deal with the situation in the best way - and the maturity of the pax to realise that the crew are just trying to reduce the risks in what is relatively a risky business.