View Full Version : Citi Express Base Closures

9th Nov 2002, 13:30
It seems there are strong rumors that there is going to more base closures for BA Citi Express and future size and shape mark two. We seem to be able to close bases just as fast as easy Jet opens them.
Bye Bye Jet Stream 41 which if the rumors are true will not be with us after Jan 03. More displaced pilots and possible redundancies.

9th Nov 2002, 19:08
Seems logical that if BACE wants to survive it'll have to find an effective way of competing with the low cost carriers such as Easyjet AND with other airlines. It's a simple matter of cost: you can get a return ticket eg. from BRS to CDG for around £69 on the new Air France Regional jet flights, but if you take the early BACE departure (sometimes operated by a Dash 8 I understand)it'll cost you more than £500 return. Who would you fly with???? :(

10th Nov 2002, 10:33
Does anybody know what "BA City express" are going to do with there Jetstream 41, and if they are going to retraine all there pilot on DASH or Jet?
I heared the rumour that the lease of the J 41 with British Aerospace is not over until 2007. It looks to me that it is going to cost them a fortune to return the Aircrafts before!!!

10th Nov 2002, 14:41
At present if your in BACX as a pilot you must be hearing loads of talk about the fate of the RJs etc. Are they coming are they not?
Who is going to crew them and WHY!!
Now can anyone shed some light to what the score is? Maybe someone in the Ivory tower can contribute!!

Also, there are a lot of rumours about the J41 winter sell off!!
is this really happening and can anyone put any facts to this growing roumour.

Well this should get the ball rolling.

P.S. The one that started the rumour about BACX getting Airbus instead of RJs should get a job at Wallmarts. There is more
chance of getting a cheese board with the crew food than that one happening. My money is on the Doctor Pepper super tube!! in time.

10th Nov 2002, 15:36
The suggestion of Base closures has reared its head before as has the disposal of the J41. What I would like to know is which Bases are likely to be closed and what will happen to the J41s? Some people believe there is some truth in these rumours and others believe they are ridiculous.

10th Nov 2002, 16:32
As regular flyer on this route, since AF have (re-)started their service they have had a good reliabililty record which is certainly more than can be said of BA on the same route. Sitting on a 145 for an hour and a quarter waiting for take-off takes some stomaching at £500+ for the return trip!
The operations management at BRS appears incoherent and headed up by teenagers with failed O levels in Domestic Science!

10th Nov 2002, 21:50
if this is true ,then what shall become of those of us in the holding pool ?

Don't say i have got to start over again !!

Jetstream Rider
11th Nov 2002, 10:02
OK, so here is what I have heard...

1) Eastern to get 5 of our J41's as they have said they want them and the South African ones are too expensive to put on the UK register.

2) EuroManx to get 6, Eastern to get 6, hence disposal of entire fleet. EuroManx and Eastern to be given a franchise when they get the J41's (and what would be the difference from having Manx/BRAL fly them??? Would be same aircraft, same routes and probably same pilots. Full circle perhaps?)

3) Route changes at LBA

I do not claim any of these are true, just what I have heard from the mill. It is true that BA would like to sell the J41, but with leases up until 2007 and (perhaps) no one willing to take on the leases it will be tricky.

I reckon it is more likely that there will be major route changes at LBA rather then getting rid of the J41.

Pilots in the holding pool - we are still filling the holding pool and there are about 60ish BA cadet F/O's in the airline at the moment who BA would like back to fly jets in the not too distant future. There will be jobs for pilots in BACX in a while I reckon.

11th Nov 2002, 15:24
I have flown several times just recently out of LBA and loads have been excellent. I understand that they have improved dramatically in recent times. Incidentally, I do like the J41 (proper flying, particularly a recent and very hairy take off from LGW) and the cabin crew are the friendliest I have ever come across.
What new routes would you anticipate being flown out of LBA and which ones would go?
Replacing 60 F/O Cadets would not be easy in the short term?
Eastern are a very successful private airline. There may be some truth in the rumours after all??

682ft AMSL
11th Nov 2002, 15:59
Just speculation on my part.

If there are changes afoot at LBA I imagine the general direciton would be "less" as opposed to "more". LGW & DUB could sustain a 50 seat a/c but I'm not so sure about SOU,BRS,ABZ & IOM.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they dropped in 2 x DHC-8 or Emb-145 to stick to these two routes and used MAN crew to service them.

If so, nor would I be surprised to see Eastern come in and take over routes to SOU, ABZ etc.


zero-lash valve lifter
11th Nov 2002, 20:56
Off thread and selfish so I apologise, however does anyone know how many people are in the holding pool and the rate at which people are moving from pool to type rating? I understand from previous posts that the transition is fairly rapid but posts regarding reduction of a/c types has me intrigued to say the least.

Many thanks

12th Nov 2002, 09:50
What about the Newcastle base with all those lovely J-41s? :D :rolleyes:

12th Nov 2002, 11:00
More displaced pilots with greater immunity than the diplomatic bag!!!

12th Nov 2002, 13:02
Zero, don't hold your breath. I work (appear) with Citiexpress and I can tell you there will be little recruitment 'till the cadets go back, as we are 83 pilots heavy at the moment. The reason for this is that the company can see the cadets going back sooner than later.;)

13th Nov 2002, 11:00
Rumour at NCL is the Dublin is about to be dropped and Ryanair possibly entering the fray!
These I must add these are rumours can any one substantiate any more?

I wouldnít miss the J41 but have lots of friends working for CityExpress! Hope the six-month-old Newcastle base survives!


13th Nov 2002, 16:45
I suppose FR would say that with Teeside, they already "serve" Newcastle :D

13th Nov 2002, 17:57
As a previous Brymon employee, I can only wish all of my ex-colleagues all the best. I truely hope that the management can start appreciating the huge impact that it has on the most important asset that they have, their staff! And therefore, start communicating in a manner which they would also like to be treated.

Yes, they must report to Big Brother, and yes they must be competitive in an ever increasing marketplace. Yet they must understand the importance of effective communication!

As for the J41's......... Get shot of them! Dash 8 far better, even if the support from DeHavilland leaves something to be desired.

Someone earlier mentioned Air France on the BRS-CDG route. Make the best of it! They never last! This must the 4th/5th time in about 7-8years that they have tried this route, and every time they pull out. Previously with francise's, as well as operating with a 737 some years back. BACX should be wary, but should not concern themselves to much with their presence, they will dissapear back across the water in good time. They just need to be concerned the mighty Easyjet/Go which I believe have made a very good home out of BRS.

Earlier you mentioned that sitting on a ERJ145 for 1hr 45mins, waiting for take-off. Have you any idea why? If you have then fine, but if you hav'nt, then why not ask, as oppossed to suggest that it something to do with the incompetence of the airline. Not really fair critism.

Also you mention some rather unpleasant descriptions of BACX staff at BRS. This also leads to believe that you don't work within the industry at all, and that you are probably just one of those business men, who think that everyone else is below them, and that the most important person in the world is yourself. If I'm wrong then once again, fine, but please consider the people that you insult so openly, may bery well be reading this forum.

Back to the thread!

Best Wishes to all my ex colleagues from the days of Brymon Airways. The memories are still good, if maybe a little hazy now. It must be all the sun!


13th Nov 2002, 20:35
All of the Cadets at BA who didn't get a contract post Sep 11th 2001 are now being brought into the company. When those cadets who are with BACX will start being pulled back in I don't know for sure but my guess would be sooner rather than later, the recruitment Dept. at BA, well the section in the CC that deals with pilot recruitment, is starting to get "snowed under". As for the RJ. It all depends on the Scope negotiations. You may be aware there is raging debate over the pay negotiations at the moment, that is where all attention is focussed. Once that is sorted out, then scope is next. Until a deal is agreed then no BA aircraft of 100 seats or more will be flown by anyone other than a BA mainline pilot. The union at the recent GMM's stated they would like to get scope sorted by Xmas, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The result of the scope negotiations could conceivably be that the RJ continues to be flown by BA mainline crew and few positions if any are released to BACX, or the other end of the scale would be complete agreement (ha ha) and all the RJ positions released to BACX plus the pilots who have bid to stay in the regions from BA mainline. No one knows what the answer will be, frustrating isn't it!

14th Nov 2002, 10:02
Bral I take it your on the 146. I was only trying to fill in a few gaps so that what we know might be known elsewhere, I wasn't trying to be pompous. I forgot about the 146 and so, it seems, has everyone else!!!!:D

The answer to this on reflection may be that it is a line in the sand and the statement is referring to a/c currently flying on routes that are crewed NOW by BA mainline crews. Just a thought.

14th Nov 2002, 11:38
the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return.

14th Nov 2002, 12:03
In response to AOG007, I said I sat on board for 75 minutes, not 105! And I didn't criticise the staff, just the management - which quite a lot of other people on this site seem to do as well.
The delay, was due to air traffic control problems, but these do seem to affect BA flights from and to BRS more than anyone else, as reference to the arrivals and departures info. will show.
Yes, I am now a business man, but used to sit at the sharp end.
Curiously business travellers tend to keep "full service" carriers in the air, which is perhaps not as widely appreciated as it should be.
I take the point that AF have been on and off the route, but assuming the equipment they are now using can handle the BRS weather, and considering the ease of connections at CDG T2 and their convenient flight timings they do have some chance of success. They certainly seem to get good loads in & out of SOU.

14th Nov 2002, 19:39

As one of those "teenagers with failed O levels in Domestic Science!" (which is of course not a criticism) I can now at least appreciate that you are well aware of certain things that go on within aviation, as you mention you used to sit at the sharp end.

As you correctly mentioned, flights to and from CDG from BRS, are notorious for there ATC delays. The annoying point from when I used to be one of those teenagers, was that only 1 hour later, a BritAir (Air France Franchisee) used to operate to CDG, using the same routing, flight levels, and similar speed. So why did they always have an unrestricted departure to CDG. I would'nt want to think that there was some form of preference in and out of CDG for French carriers, but it does make you think this when what ever was done, nothing avoided being hit with minimum delays of 40mins. The majority of these delays are arrival restrictions into CDG, and therefore routing changes are irrelevant.

Anyone who works for a "Full Service" carrier, certainly appreciates which client is classed as the "bread and butter" of the airline, and in BACX's (Brymon) case, they certainly know who is important. This may be difficult to see at the moment, due to the immense changes taking place throughout the organisation, which does'nt exactly encourage the staff to go out of the way for the company, but they do value each and every passenger that passes through BRS.

You mention AF having the right equipment to handle the weather at BRS. In my opinion they always have. Remember BRS has only been CATII for a short period, so prior to that, everyone was in the same boat. Brymon's only advantage back in the days of Britair, was crew's famililarity with the surrounding area. I truely believe that AF will dissappear as they have in the past.

As for the management? Well that is another story. I have no respect for them, and treat them all with contempt they deserve. BA's biggest mistake was allowing control of a very large regional operator, to be passed to people whom had no previous BA management experience. Brymon was run by primarily BA personnel, with only a few original Brymon members from the Pre BA days. Although BRAL/MANX was clearly a well run company prior to the merge, the management were not equipped to deal with the issue's that have been presented by the bringing together of a wholly owned subsidery, and a franchise operator. It will change in time, but when, only Big Rod can answer.


15th Nov 2002, 11:50
<<EuroManx and Eastern to be given a franchise when they get the J41's >>
utter b*%l*x i'm afraid. Rod Eddington has staed that he is actively reducing the number of franchises 'cos they dilute the BA product.

<<the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return>>
the BACX CC blew this when they tried to hold the BACC to ransom (allegedly). I have heard that the BACC were going to offer ALL BACX jet crews a place on the BA list, with access to 744,777, concorde etc etc if they wanted to bid for such things. prop crews were a negotiating tool. Allegedly, someone in the BACX CC is very very anti BA (must have got turned down by them - so what didn't we all at one time or another) and told the BACC to p&&s off. So BACX pilots are now out of the loop thanks to the alleged actions of a few. Thanks guys.

of, course like most rumours, this may all be a load of tosh!! we will all find out soon enough.

Wee Weasley Welshman
15th Nov 2002, 13:37
BRS is CatIII on 27. A fact which has got me home no less than 7 times this month!


15th Nov 2002, 15:37
Wee Weasley Welshman

Must have been half a sleep when I was creating my reply. I meant CATIII, as opposed to CATII.

All this sun must be going to head. Such a difference to spending most of my time judging visibility by means of "Can I see the trident on the south side", very high tech in my days at BRS!

Hows the Go/Easy camp at BRS? You just seem to be getting busier and busier?


15th Nov 2002, 17:42
I have just read a post from one of our reps that said that because of the unhelpful attitude of the BACX CC BACX were unlikely to feature in the scope negotiations. Looks like you were correct!

15th Nov 2002, 17:54

BACX CC - Company Council or Cabin Crew?

Just to clarify?


15th Nov 2002, 18:07

"the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return."

With respect mate, the BACC offered a place on mainline BA seniority for BACX FO's with Mainline Capts flying in the LHS. Your lot turned it down. Egg on face if you have seen the new proposed payscales.

Frankly, the BACC don't have to offer you diddly, 'cause its a mainline fleet, from a mainline base, flown by mainline pilots.

Before this argument rears it's head again, just think on... BA propose to give the BACX Dash fleet to XYZ airlines for them to crew and operate. Operate that is, from an existing BACX base, on existing BACX routes, but tough luck, you can't fly it anymore.

Your would love that wouldn't you??!!!

Reality check please



16th Nov 2002, 20:35
To Psyco and Atropos and those of you who would have us believe that BACX CC were not representing their members interests when rejecting BACC proposals ref Scope and the RJs can I mention a couple matters:-

1. In BACX CC elections recently the two reps who conducted these discussions received overwhelming endorsement of their candidature by a greater percentage of all votes cast than any other members. Clearly CX pilots do not share your views therefor and like what has been said and done in their name.

2. The BACX CC newsletter to its members explaining in depth the rationale of its rejection is in wide circulation and anyone who genuinely seeks the truth (as opposed to casting ignorant aspersions on the integrity of clearly indentifiable members of CX CC on this forum) should read it.

Have a nice day

17th Nov 2002, 08:43
BACX CC=Company Council.

Tiny Tim,
I have spoken to reps who were at the meeting where the bust up happened. I have read the letter from your company council to your members. The longer this situation goes on the more likely it is that you will start losing people. I hope that the support holds out and that nobody loses their jobs!

17th Nov 2002, 12:26
Well we certainly seem to have drifted away from the original thread here regarding possible base closures/rationalisation and disposal of the J41s although this is typically what happens on these boards!
Nobody appears to have come up with anything to support the original claim so we'll treat it merely as someone's speculation.

17th Nov 2002, 15:35
Yes Sarl a bad case of thread creep...However.....In reply to Atropos, Can I say that your concern for the welfare of your CX brothers and sisters is indeed touching. Not a virtue may I say otherwise much in evidence....

Any contraction will be greatly assisted if not obliterated by the repatriation of your young cadet colleagues who we are presently nurturing. Their ample and privileged terms including final salary pension schemes do not rest comfortably with many of us in CX who will have to work until 60 and then find further employment to keep off state benefits.....

Hows about ...you in BA get on with your own lives and we in CX do the same...and we don't tell each other what to do?

By the way, most of us dont want your RJs anyway-certainly not with all the strings attached by BACC. So to those of you at LGW ....enjoy your touring rosters! You may be doing them for some time.

17th Nov 2002, 17:03
I'm not trying to tell you to do anything! I'm just telling it how it seems from here. I agree, we should just get on with living our own lives, it would have been nice in an ideal world to have come up with an acceptable deal that brought us all closer together. The deal you were offered was not a great one but I'm sure could have been improved on with sensible non-throw the baby out with the bath water type negotiations. I think that is the opportunity that you have missed, nothing else.

It must be difficult having the BA cadets forced onto you, it's not their fault though, at least give them that. Its this bizarre management team that we have in place at the moment that are causing the trouble.

Your sentiment about the RJ touring is a cheap shot. The crews involved are not deserving of your scorn, they are , after all , ex-cfe! I understand that once our pay deal is sorted out attention will be turned to scope so you will hopefully not have long to gloat as with the pay deal, which may surprise a few in the industry, and scope sorted everyone's lives will be sorted and become more stable.

Here's hoping for a calmer, more friendly world!

18th Nov 2002, 07:21
There might be something in Citi Ex doing a back door deal with Euromanx. I hear on the news today Euromax are starting an IOM/Liverpool service 5 times a day, on the basis Citi will drop the route because it doesn't feed any onward flights.
Looks to me like an orderly hand over of all Manx routes to Euromanx !

18th Nov 2002, 08:29
"including final salary pension schemes do not rest comfortably with many of us in"
I presume you'd be happier if they had MP schemes.
What an awful attitude.

Amazon man
18th Nov 2002, 09:17

At the risk of slewing the post in the wrong direction the point being made is that BA cadets who were not offered a BA contract after Sept 11 but employed by CitiExpress have now subsequently been offered full BA contracts including as we understand it a Final Salary Pension whilst still flying for BACX, when our own newly joined pilots are now denied a FS pension.

Its not a question of sour grapes or envy its a much bigger question of where we sit within BA, does mainline want us in the fold or not, what are mainlines management view of our operation etc etc.

Whatever your views on the BACX CC most of us in BACX do not want to end up on the bottom of a BA seniority list and we will not put up with a scope clause being imposed on us. A look at the mess the American airlines have got into regarding scope clauses should be enough to warn anyone away from that path.

If BACX continues to be a success and grow why shouldn't it be allowed to operate the size of aircraft it thinks best suits its operation. If our mainline colleagues want us all on the same list then something more than the carrot of an RJ aircraft will have to be offered, at the very least a seniority number based on the date of joining Manx/BRAL/CitiExpress for the purposes of redundancy as per CityFlyer I believe.

18th Nov 2002, 09:50
Amazon Man,
The ex-CFE crew did not get a seniority number based on their date of joining at CFE. They went to the bottom of the BA seniority list BUT have date of joining at CFE seniority for employment protection and staff travel as was their right under TUPE legislation.

If the BACC negotiate a scope clause with the company you will not have any right to reject or accept it, it will not be offered to BACX in any way. This is the opportunity that you are turning down, to be involved and have some influence on the process. If the scope deal is sorted out BACX will have to operate outside the process but will be limited by the agreement to the size of a/c that you can fly. You may not like this, I wouldn't, your only option is to get the BACX CC involved again, it is not too late, and get your voices heard at the highest level.

I wouldn't like to be excluded from a process that could conceivably tie the two companies much closer together. I hope that whatever result occurs you are all happy with it. Good luck with the negotiations and please don't cut off your noses to spite your face.

18th Nov 2002, 10:56
you can enter whatever agreement you like with BA.

Our CC (armed with an overwhelming mandate from their members) have made it properly clear that they will not repond to threats or pressure to do so neither one which disenfranchises over fifty percent of our workforce - being turboprop pilots.

Since you correctly assert that CX's input is not relevant then please stop going on about Scope. How many different ways do we have to explain NO?

We are not interested OK?

At the end of the day the market will prevail and your little bit of paper called "Scope" wont be worth the paper its written on. So, please guys....stop going on about it. If it makes you feel secure that is entirely your business and we would not presume to tell you what is good for you.....

18th Nov 2002, 11:24
Ouch! Message received and understood-OUT.

rhythm method
19th Nov 2002, 16:04
It's time we got back to what we were doing before this amalgamation fiasco. ie flying pax around Europe profitably, but without having to obey rules from an outside organisation (in this case BACC).

The differing versions of scope have only served to drive mainline BA and ourselves further apart. As I stated on a previous thread, it's time to decide 'are we part of British Airways or not?'. BACC argue that we are not and to all intents and purposes we really never will be. If so, fine, but then stop telling us what we can or cannot fly, as well as who we can or cannot employ! During BA's job cuts, the cadets were given jobs within our part of the overall airline thus saving them from the dole, or worse losing them to easyjet etc.

Now we are being told that we must accept mainline pilots on the RJ fleet on their existing terms and conditions above our own crews. Scope version 1 allowed our existing 146 crews access to BA mainline but prevented barbie-jet pilots or worse yet, the lowest of the low, TURBOPROP pilots from the same possibilities. We on the 146 could have been selfish, "I'm alright Jack" and pushed for acceptance, but why? We don't view the rest of our crews in an elitist way (even though we are the senior fleet:p !!!!). Scope as pushed for by BACC is a divisive and insulting proposal.

Worse yet!! Scope version 2 which now says some of our F/O's can be able to bid for mainline, but no-one else! Please find me the plonker who thought up that rationale and elevate them to the highest eschelons (too bored to try a spell-check!) of management. Their total lack of reality makes them very suitable!!!

Now we are supposed to feel sorry for the displace BAR pilots who are to be afforded instant access to the RJ fleet if they so-wish. Not only that, but a tidy little handout each month so that they are no worse off financially. WHY??? What is so special about them? Let's not forget that in fact they are employed by British Airways, not BAR. Their contracts are for BA but SECONDED to the regions, therefore they should not have any RIGHT above BACX pilots. At present, the only crews we should feel any sympathy for are the ex-cfe pilots. They had no choice in being shoved up here into the dank Northwest!

The argument that the RJ fleet are mainline aircraft doesn't really wash. They are due to be transferred to the BACX AOC very shortly, and at that point, we should be allowed to operate them as WE see fit and with the crews that WE employ. If BACC fight to have them kept as mainline, then so be it, but let none of their expenses be attributed to our accounts!

We should be free to grow to serve the markets which we see fit to provide profit to our parent company British Airways without the interference of BACC. At present the situation could be compared to little 5 year old Johnny. Suddenly mummy comes back from the hospital with little newborn Bobby. Johnny throws tantrums and doesn't want any food given to the new arrival. Hinder his growth!!! Pathetic!

Sorry to be so long-winded, but enough is enough, we are either part of the whole picture as equals, or we should be allowed to determine our own destiny.


20th Nov 2002, 20:36
Regarding base closures its about time that the management realise they cannot keep ****ing about with peoples life. If they know something and have decided something then will they please just tell the staff (the ones that actually matter and who make the company what it is).

I cannot believe that after such investment at NCL that they are considering closing the base. Equally so for the other 'rumoured' base closures - PLH, LBA and EDI.

And Ryanair at NCL - never in a million years!

21st Nov 2002, 13:21
Well with all these rumours around concerning base closures, surely this may mean redundancies. If so,and with the word around that BA mainline will be recruiting next year, would this mean mainline taking some of our pilots on, as we did with their cadets last year thus saving them from the dole. I don't think so, but it will just go to show what a dumping ground BACX is for our Big Brother.

21st Nov 2002, 15:36
The argument that the RJ fleet are mainline aircraft doesn't really wash. They are due to be transferred to the BACX AOC very shortly, and at that point, we should be allowed to operate them as WE see fit and with the crews that WE employ. If BACC fight to have them kept as mainline, then so be it, but let none of their expenses be attributed to our accounts!

So therefore the argument follows that ex CFE pilots aren't mainline pilots must follow.... Ummm, don't think so. Accept your point about the economics, but remember we all work for BA, ok under different names but the melting pot is still the same. Where the money comes from isn't relevant. That BA as a group makes a profit is essential.

21st Nov 2002, 16:14
Right this is getting way out of hand on all sides.
Firstly it seems to be a one way street, with mainline getting more out this than us at BACX.
If it is a BACX aircraft then you should be on BACX t & Cs and no
argument. If you are on mainline A/C then it should be Mainline T& Cs. Now what seems to be happening is that mainline want it all their way, I say no to that!
As stated already the RJs will BACX A/C so if mainline want a slice of the cake your going to have to put a black uniform on and muck in, if not go bid for your 777 Gin palace down at Wally World.
Now at the moment you guys want our jets but can we have yours, the words NO WAY i hear!! I would say that is unfair!!
Now we have trained up your F/Os and helped you guys out so I think its only fair that you guys help us out in times of need, like if we have any more base closures which seems that this will eventually happen.
I think that BALPA on both sides of the table should get a grip of this and dump scope and come up with a fair two way kind of deal that keeps everyone happy, as after all we fly with the same corporate logos and all contribute to the same money pot!!
Come on BALPA lets get some closure on this deadlock.:mad:

21st Nov 2002, 19:46

21st Nov 2002, 20:39
I think you'll find that the RJ's belong to British Airways Plc.

However they will be operated on the BACX AOC and operated to BACX's SOP's.

21st Nov 2002, 21:13
What started as a post speculating on the closure of bases and the disposal of the J41s, appears to have deteriorated into a very sad & heated debate over the RJs! I am too saddened to comment.
However, going back to the original thread, I have decided that the specualtion is just that and in fact, there will be no closures and the J41 will remain with BA Plc until the leases expire in 2007.

stalling attitude
21st Nov 2002, 22:16
its funny . i left BACX just as BA were taking it over and i was told that i was stupid to leave because everyone would be flying around in Airbus on BA terms and conditions etc etc but all that seems to have happened is that several routes have been axed , many people have been moved to bases they dont want to be at and everyone seems to be at each others throat.

very sad as i really enjoyed my time there working for a basically happy outfit.:(

22nd Nov 2002, 10:29
Spot on comment SA.

The magic BA formula (sorry...there isn't one of course) has trashed two perfectly good companies with its heady potion of incompetence, stupidity, myopia and self interest.

I am beginning to think that the only way ahead is to break the company up and create some smaller focussed units serving their indivdual regions with a healthy dose of independen t management.

The root of the problem is that BA are trying to play a national game with what is in essence a number of small regional airlines.

Best thing that could happen is for us to be bought out and broken up................seriously we are presently on a one way ticket to nowhere.

Its got to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets any better I am afraid.

The only consolation is that six months in this industry is about six years in any other so a lot could happen in a very short time............

23rd Nov 2002, 09:21
Like Stalling Attitude I too left BRAL at MAN just when the BA takeover was announced. And I too was told how good this was, that I was crazy to leave, promises of flying larger aircraft etc. I didn't actually think twice about it though because I couldn't deal with another day with those ridiculous management coneheads on the IOM.

I now happily work for an outfit that is making many millions at BA's expense. I know BA are back in the black but not nearly by as much as they would have been. Until I read this thread I didn't feel very good about it. But with the uncompromising, assuming and arrogant attitudes expressed by some of the mainline guys on this thread, well, now I don't feel so bad at all.

Best of luck to all the troops at BACX, and especially those guys I knew in BRAL at MAN.

23rd Nov 2002, 17:00
Most of the dogmatic stuff written here comes from people who would be much less courageous in an eyeball to eyeball conversation.Wind your necks in a little and have more respect for your fellow professionals.

23rd Nov 2002, 18:07

its people with your kind of attitude that just make this entire situation worst.

Keep your bloody RJ.s and fly them yourself if you feel that passionate about them.

Nav Armed
23rd Nov 2002, 18:08
A few of us at BACX pretty much echo what SA and Kite have said.Quite a few of us are just too pi@*ed off with the whole thing now.Base Closures,Scope,RJ's,J41's.
The management don't really realise how many of their pilots are actively looking for other employment at the minute and it's only that the current job market is not as thriving as it should be that they are still there.But take it from me that as soon as it picks up, we'll be gone.
We constantly hear "Stick with us,It's gonna be ok".
All Bol*@cks.
Bral/Manx was a great company when i joined(as i'm sure Brymon was)but on the front line it just seems worse everyday now.Morale?Mega low!!
There's only so much "Good Will" that we can put up with.

But that's probobly what they want,anyway!!
Or am i just cynical?

23rd Nov 2002, 20:19

With respect, thats all we want to do.. just as you would want to continue flying your Jetstreams, or Dash's or Sonic Cruisers if you had them!

What really ticks me off is the assumption expressed time and time again that it's ok to steal a fleet off mainline BA pilots, cos there all overpaid and underworked arent they?!

At the end of the day, they expansion of BACX is directly at the expense of my colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX.

Your colleagues argue that you deserve it because your more cost efficient and work your butts off for peanuts. Well, if your happy perpetuating that then feel free, but don't do it AND steal my colleagues job, and force them to operate from a base 150 miles away.

Whilst you may be dreaming of expansion, we are praying for our respective fleets not to be given to XYZ Airlines, and the RJ's have become the line in the sand for us.

All we want is to keep our work, and have a secure future, just as you want to keep your bases and the jobs there.

ps.. I have nothing personally to gain from all this.

the flying scot
23rd Nov 2002, 21:07
Heard from a pretty reliable source that the J41's are off to another BA franchise in Jan03. Anyone care to comment on who that might be ?????

24th Nov 2002, 10:29

Well we do have sonic cruisers of the Brazilian variety!

Mainline pilots at BHX and MAN were offered the RJ's, did they want them? NO. I spoke to a mainline skipper in GLA a week ago who is moving to LHR, from BHX, he was also offered the RJ and said no, so how can he grumble about a move to LHR. So this chap was offered a chance to stay at his 'home' in BHX but said NO, so these chaps dont want to fly the RJ and stay at home, they have chosen to move to LHR/LGW

For your colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX, am I not right in the fact that these pilots were seconded to BAR and therefore the company has the right to call them back to mainline at any time?

BlueUpGood, if you asked most of my colleagues about the RJ, they could not give a toss about it. What we will not have is a Scope clause which disadvantages BACX pilots,

You have also got to remember that you and all you colleagues, do no own BA, you merely work for them, so whatever decisions they take about the RJ are for the people who run the company, not the pilots.

As for stealing the Cityflyer fleet, sorry I mean mainline, well the RJ's arriving at MAN and BHX, irrelevant of who crews them has put an end to our company considering the Embraer 170 or similar.

As for our salaries, yes we are paid less than you, our terms and conditions are no way near as good, allowances and duty pay are not at the same level, but does that make us second class to BA mainline??? Donít forget BlueUpGood you are a person no different to I, so donít look down your nose at me or my colleagues

As for the expansion of BACX, well if we are able to operate a route more effectively then of course board level with BA will evaluate the possibility of handing the route to BACX, we are owned by the same parent company. But you have got to ask yourself why are we more effective? I think thatís the question a lot of BA mainline people donít want to answer as they sit back and count allowances and duty earnings.

Nav Armed, you are right, its simply the lack of jobs elsewhere in the market place keeping a lot of us in BACX, like you old boy once the thing picks up I am gone !!!

the flying scot, I am surprised that you dont know !



Hand Solo
24th Nov 2002, 19:45
Well I've tried to stay out of this debate but I feel that a few points of FL245s last post require some elaboration.

Mainline pilots at BHX and MAN were offered the RJ's, did they want them? NO.

Given that the offer consisted of flying them as part of BACX, on vastly inferior terms and conditions, and with other pilots from BACX, a number of whom have made quite clear their intense dislike of BA pilots on this forum, then who could blame them? Had they been offered the RJ on their existing terms within BA then the uptake would have been very different.

For your colleagues who are displaced from their homes in MAN and BHX, am I not right in the fact that these pilots were seconded to BAR and therefore the company has the right to call them back to mainline at any time?

No. Most crew had actively bid to be based at BHX or MAN, the company could not recall them to LHR without closing the bases completely. Many have never been based in London.

As for stealing the Cityflyer fleet, sorry I mean mainline, well the RJ's arriving at MAN and BHX, irrelevant of who crews them has put an end to our company considering the Embraer 170 or similar

On which routes were the Embraer 170s to operate. If you're increasing capacity on your own routes then fine, but if the plan is to edge BAR aircraft of their routes then is it any wonder people are narked?

As for the expansion of BACX, well if we are able to operate a route more effectively then of course board level with BA will evaluate the possibility of handing the route to BACX, we are owned by the same parent company. But you have got to ask yourself why are we more effective? I think thatís the question a lot of BA mainline people donít want to answer as they sit back and count allowances and duty earnings.

I wondered when then old chestnut of 'we're cheaper so we're better' would appear. I guess it must be those pittance wages easyjet are paying that make them so profitable. I would actually question whether your operation at BHX and MAN is more effective than the old BAR operation. Sure you can serve routes that we couldn't on the larger equipment, but one need only look at the shambles of an attempt at the BHX-BRU route to see your fortunes have been decidely mixed (for those not familiar, the route was switched from 2xA319 daily to 5xEmb145 daily but with such an appalling cancellation history that we lost slots. All BRU flights have now been handed over to SN on a codeshare). The reliability of the 145s and the 146s has been lamentable with hundreds of cancellations, five figure bills for wet-leasing Titan aircraft on a weekly basis, valuable customers leaving in droves and passenger satisfaction going through the floor, particularly now the RJ is arriving at BHX. Its no good being cheaper if you haven't got any passengers to fly and the way the regional operation is going that may be the case sooner than we all expect.

Dash Trash
24th Nov 2002, 20:14
I have a terrible premonition:
BACX gets rid of all the J41s to Eastern, and since we now do not have the aircraft to operate those routes Eastern gets the franchise to operate them on our behalf, which is of course profitable since they don't have the overheads associated with the absorption of BAR. BACX becomes more and more top heavy and eventually management decides that a regional airline with a lower cost base is required, so BA buy Eastern (don't fight it guys, resistance is futile you will be assimilated). Rebranding consultants are hired who mastermind its re-launch as British Airways Citiexpress Lite (the cunning marketing strategy of mis-spelling of "Lite" has got to be worth several mill of anybody's money). Those of us who work for BACX now worry about these appalling turboprop oiks (Lord knows, some of them probably haven't been to public school) taking our routes and eroding our terms and conditions, so we insist on a scope clause ring fencing MAN and BHX, and limiting BACX Lite to sub 30 seat turboprops unless our captains fly them. (though in return any CX Lite captain who has scored straight "A"s in his last 20 sim checks, and has over 40 years continuous service would be allowed the supreme honour of joining the bottom of our seniority list.) This makes BACX Lite unprofitable.

Disclaimer: The above scenario is a work of fiction, and any resemblance to actual events is entirely coincidental.

British Airways Citiexpress ~ May the farce be with you !

24th Nov 2002, 20:57
Given that the offer consisted of flying them as part of BACX, on vastly inferior terms and conditions, and with other pilots from BACX

Well there we go, the BA Mainline pilot is above us all. Listen Hand Solo, you are no different from the rest of us old boy.

Its not too many years ago when the RJ was not even anything to do with mainline. I did not see you all rushing to apply to CityFlyer a few years ago?

I have spoken to some of your colleagues who have said that they would not fly the RJ, even to stay at their base MAN/BHX. If thatís their choice then they have no recourse and should not grumble at moving down the M6.

Brymon / BRAL operated BA Franchise routes for a number of years, so I am not sure which routes you refer to when you say 'your own routes', all these routes are now owned by BA.

BRU, you may have a fair point about BHX/BRU, but I can tell you I came from BRU to LHR on a 757 recently, and there were more cabin crew than PAX, so have a think about that.

The main point in this discussion is not the RJ's its BA decision to pull the Airbus and 737 from BHX / MAN. The redeployment of the RJ to these bases is another issue and the T & C's well thatís an issue you need to take with your employer.

Another main issue here is SCOPE, and there is no way I would accept that on the conditions that were proposed. I can honestly say from the crews in BACX that I have spoken to, it would be simpler to let mainline crew fly the RJ on your current T & C's.

Hand Solo, people within BACX are not evil, twisted nor trying to steal anyoneís job. I simply operate the aircraft, if my company decided that we are now doing a route that used to be a BAR route, then so be it. That decision does not rest with you or I as to what routes we decide to operate.

As for operating costs, again if it can be done cheaper on a different aircraft, then as a pure cost cutting exercise I would imagine thats the way it will be.

Good luck

24th Nov 2002, 21:40

Lets get one thing clear. NEVER did I state, or do I believe a BA pilot is any better or more worthy than any other pilot.

I would give my eye teeth to work for a small friendly company.

But, lets get one thing ABSOLUTELY clear. BA the company thrives on 'divide and conquer'. FACT. They are trying to do it between BA and BACX now, and your turn will come within BACX.


BA terms & conditions may be a cheap target from outside, but when BA DEP''s are hired on good T&C's, it's one less pilot for other airlines to hire. Supply & demand dictates higher pay must be offered to compete.

You may resent BA T&C's, but like it or not, there always has to be a 'percieved' market leader, and BA happens to be it. In reality, it isn't necessarily so. But, the highest pay, and best T&C's dictate the market rates.

When the BA council draw a line, the whole pilot market benefits eventually. You may be ticked off that it's not your company that has the clout, but BA is the biggest employer, and hence has the biggest influence on the market.

Believe me, there are hundreds, if not thousands of pilots in BA who would love to share the 'Dunquerk' spirit and friendliness of smaller (worse paid) airlines, but giving our kids a better future or whatever, means we are slaves to Big Airways. But, we don't like it.

As a bloke who flew a 747-400 and was bored sh*&less after 4 sectors ( and 1 landing) I would love to fly a J41. BUT it must be for enough money to do my family justice.

Lets all stand together and benefit together.


24th Nov 2002, 22:23
Yes but blueupgood,

If BA bought and amalgamated smaller companies to form a lower cost regional (BACX) that could compete with the very low cost competition in the regions and central to that plan was to get rid of all the aircraft and routes that were not already in established BA bases in the regions (MAN, BHX) and use the surplus and displaced pilots from BACX to crew aircraft that had been 'handed down' (RJ) from BA. Then all of a sudden BA CC objected to BACX operating these RJ's for whatever reason and mainline crews operated them instead, I see two outcomes:

1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin.

2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all.

How do you feel about that?

All day breakfast
25th Nov 2002, 00:38
I have not posted on pprune for getting on for 2 years now (before the BA takeover) but have read with interest the comments and emotions expressed on this site over the past year or so.
Personally, I joined Manx/Bral, four years ago, as that company was a good career progression from my previous employment. Back in those dark ages the thought of working in the daylight was as good a reason as any for signing up. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time with that company since joining it. It has been very good to me and I do still pinch myself to believe that I am doing the job that I am.
However I have found myself over the previous year or so becoming more and more disallusioned for one reason or another.
I find that despite myself and the crews which I have had the pleasure in working with over the previous months having put extreme efforts in to overcoming our differences in working conditions and attitudes we do not get any recognition for our efforts from above. So much for leadership from above. However, my personnal thanks go to all of those involved, as ever.
On a day to day basis the basic organisation of the job seems to have deteriorated. Myself and a few of my collegues have come from single crew operations which did seem to work better than our operation at present. I assume that this reflects upon the infrastructure and not the upon the individuals involved.
Our SOP's have changed out of all recognition with a disturbing (to myself) trend toward no initiative being encouraged. Ticks in boxes seem to be of a higher priority.
Obviously I can only comment from a personnel viewpoint, but when I signed up for the duration, if I had wanted to operate aircraft with greater than 100 seats, disregarding the Bae 146-300 (apologies Bral), I would have had to offer my services elsewhere so the present discussion does nothing for me. However I do find that the present climate within the organisation does make me think of doing just that.
Come on guys and gals, get a grip of things and realise that at the end of the day we all have the same motives at heart.
So long for the next two years.

25th Nov 2002, 09:36
Hi Faq

"1) BA can't compete in the regions and will give up leaving unflown routes to EZY et al. Surely long term impact on your job, you lose the connections and eventually PAX, leading to smaller aircraft and less frequent flights, then less mainline jobs when EZY join Star Alliance and connect with Virgin. "

A reasonable argument on the surface. However the excess cost on a ticket in BA does not come from us pilots, and it's a problem our CC Chairman has stated to Rod Eddington on a number of occasions.

BA has a MASSIVE infrastructure, much of which has little to do with moving pax from A to B. Wages in certain areas are disproportionately high. Restrictive union practices abound all over the place. We pilots in the past have simply been the least immovable object, so got b@**ered about.

We are now lobbying hard in BA that the overheads have to fall, and that we as pilots are a negligable part of the overall excess. There is absolutely no reason why Mainline can't compete in the regions, unless you crush the operation with overheads, and allocate a meagre portion of interline traffic revenue!

"2) Those BACX pilots who would have flown the RJ have no aircraft to fly and when the disposal of aircraft within BACX starts, far from providing a better living for my kids, I wont be able to provide one at all. "

With respect, we at Mainline now face the prospect of having no aircraft to fly! We already have the pilots employed to fly the RJ's, and if they don't fly it, then the same number of pilots won't be employed at the end of the day. Are you suggesting BACX have already hired the pilots to fly a fleet that is in dispute, and may not actually 'arrive'? If this is the case, then I refer back to my previous post, and my DIVIDE AND CONQUER comment!:)

25th Nov 2002, 10:09
Why is BA taking back all it's cadet pilots from BACX and why is BA taking direct entry pilots next year if you might have nothing to fly?

Your commercial realism is on a par with Scargill's NUM.

25th Nov 2002, 11:22

It's not rocket science!

We lose 19 airframes... 19 airframes of jobs go. If we are recruiting, then it's x pilots less 19 airframes worth.

By the same token, if Mainline is taking back it's cadets, then surely that means YOU will either need pilots, or you will work even harder!

My recollection of Scargill politics was ' do anything other than deal with the real facts'.

Pot kettel black?

25th Nov 2002, 15:59
Sorry to bring bad news but a date for your diaries:-

March 2003 Leeds and Plymouth bases close. I have no idea why these two
have been chosen but if it effects you, my heartfelt sympathy....

25th Nov 2002, 16:12
ETOPS - Is this fact or mere speculation again? Nobody appears to be able to confirm the intended closures of LBA or PLH although they do say, "no smoke without fire!"
Can you put some meat on the bones please and does this mean that NCL is in the clear? Presumably, they might also be getting some additional J41s?
Again, fact or speculation?

25th Nov 2002, 18:27

I was in a public place but out of uniform and thus incognito. A senior chap in your company was inadvertantly "broadcasting" details of what was happening and I couldn't help but pick up this info as I was right next to him......

rhythm method
25th Nov 2002, 21:18
Blue up Good,

Sorry, but you have quite unwittingly further supported the cause of all BACX pilots. BA T+C's are (or used to be) the industry standard, and BA wants to divide and rule being the salient points. EXACTLY!!!! Approximately 6 weeks ago, both the BACC and BACXCC believed that BA t+c's for BOTH companies would negate the scope argument from the RJ issue. Now (for reasons unknown, but assumed to be BA management pressure) the BACC has devised a more divisive version of scope which denies any BACX captain, including those currently 146 qualified, access to the RJ and God-forbid if you are a turboprop driver (in either seat) you shall be banished to the wastelands forever! Pardon me for being pedantic, but my two mates who are currently 747-400 skippers (and who agree with me on this debate!) both got their commands on the budgie in the highlands and islands. (For those who are mainline, and fighting this 'debate' without this 'knowledge' the budgie HS748 TURBOPROP as well as the BAeATP were 2 PROP aircraft operated by British Airways).

We would have no objection to mainline pilots flying alongside us but certainly not if they are being paid sh*tloads more for the same job. Either on BACX terms and conditions EQUALLY or BA T+C's EQUALLY. Such a disparity would create a massive CRM issue at the very least.

Let the BACC have the kahunas to go back to the previous 'gentleman's agreement' or else let us do our own thing without the financial burden of BAR swallowing up the profits we ARE making!

25th Nov 2002, 21:56
ETOPS I do not doubt for one minute what you heard from the individual concerned.

His indiscretions are legendary and his grasp on events have been proven materially inaccurate in the recent past to the substantial irritation of his boss.

I heard that the skids are under him personaly and I very much doubt if he'll be given a second chance to screw CX again having failed so spectacularly with version one FSS.

A drowning man clutching at straws............

26th Nov 2002, 16:45
Meanwhile Titan are cashing in by operating sub chartered work out of MAN!!

27th Nov 2002, 13:36
On the RJ issue (oh no,not again,I hear you cry!).It`s not a BA pilot against BACX pilot issue.The real issue is that all the pilots that will fly these aircraft should be on the same terms and conditions and paid the same to do the same job.That`s a very reasonable argument. If the aircraft are to be operated under BACX AOC then their t&cs should be used for all the crews,better still, put us all on BA t&cs and i doubt any pilots affected would argue against that(even if it`s never going to happen).Realistically,would anyone be happy to do the job for a lot less money than your workmates ? Not bloody likely,we would fight for equal pay! Either keep the RJs in BA and pay the crews BA wages to do it (which is unlikely due to it being harder to make a profit and BA bosses wanting it to operate as as part of BACX) or give us a level playing field.
We`d all like to stay where we want,but we`re in the wrong business for that kind of stability.

28th Nov 2002, 21:20
This topic was not started as an agrument over the RJ100. As it says it was about he forthcoming base closures!

Now maybe some of you out there could shed some light on rumours which crew are talking about.

Dash 8 to be taken out of SOU again and replaced by 145's? Those Dash 8 aicraft to be put back into NCL to replace the sold J41 aircraft. Also heading north is an RJ or another jet to operate the BRU service onbehalf of SN Brussels. Whats actually going to happen to PLH, LBA and EDI and what are Eastern planning to do with all those J41's?

And is there any truth that all is to be revealed on the 4 December? Future Size and Shape Part II!!!!!!

28th Nov 2002, 22:11
So many of the rumours just don't make sense.

1st, if there was gonna be an announcement of the 4th you would hope that the management would let us know that this is the day that our destinies would be revealed.

2nd, although I believe that Eastern ARE actually negotiating to take some of the 41's, unless we give them away I can't see a company that has traditionally operated cheap and cheerful J31's being interested in our very expensive (lease wise) J41's.

3rd Can Euromanx afford any J41's at all.

4th The devisive attitude regarding the RJ's will scupper any hope of a realistic timetable being met for their introduction. The old demarkation disputes of the 70's that crippled virtually every worthwhile British industry to the point of bankruptcy will stop us all getting on with our job of flying aeroplanes (full of passengers hopefully) and enjoying the company of like minded individuals.

I love my job (BACX), don't give a flying f##k about the bulk of the small minded insular arguments that abound on this thread. All I really want is a bit of security, loads of flying, and enough money at the end of each month the keep the bills paid, the other half in frocks and the kids in the latest away kit. I reckon originally thats why the bulk of you got into this game as well.... but you lost sight of that.:p

In trim
28th Nov 2002, 22:19
Announcement on the 4th.....

Ba have decided to resolve the RJ and regional aircraft issue by setting up a number of regional subsidiaries to operate these aircraft on their behalf on a franchise basis. Each of these subsidiaries will be managed independantly to ensure the management team are specialists and focussed on their individual markets, and thus make a profit, with costs realistic for the markets and aircraft types. These subsidiaries to be named "Brymon", "British Regional", "CityFlyer"........

28th Nov 2002, 22:42
When what we are talking about here is the future of bl**dy good people in BACE, I don't find your post particularly amusing!
I think what is happening here is a sad testament to the management of BA, particularly if some of the rumours and speculation turn out to be true.
I don't know if the senior management realise just how good the people at the sharp end are in BACE? I hasten to add that I include FC, CC and the engineers who do a brilliant job, particularly when it comes to keeping the J41s flying! I also include the BA Cadets who have really enjoyed working with everyone in BACE and deserve better than the latest balllot paper asking for a vote on them being returned immediately to Mainline! Their secondment to BACE was not their choice but they have contributed positively and certainly benefitted from and enjoyed working with, some great people. I know many who will be sad to leave when the time comes.
Back to the thread - come on BA? Get the politics sorted out, put some honesty, openness and integrity into your management of BACE and give your people the chance to create a highly successful regional airline which it can and should be!
Here endeth the lesson!

Nav Armed
29th Nov 2002, 11:21
Your last statement was pretty much Spot On!!
That's about all that most of us want aswell.
This company's turning out to be a fu@*ing big cluedo game!
Who dunnit,with what & where?
TDLF,in the management room with a "BIG" bloody knife!
I win then!!

In trim
30th Nov 2002, 19:43

The post was not meant to offend......I have been part of one of the franchises in the past, and like many others had the rug pulled out from under me by BA! I know from experience what that uncertainty feels like, especially when you know how good that company was before BA started ******ing around with it!!

The post was purely to re-iterate my views that BA have made a number of extremely fundamental mistakes in relation to management of short-haul in the past few years, which they will no doubt live to regret. Skippy was poorly advised when he first arrived.....not sure he'd make the same decisions with hindsight.

In trim.

30th Nov 2002, 22:35
Apologies from me for firing off with both barrels.
It is so frustrating to see waht is happening here.

Nav Armed
1st Dec 2002, 11:11
Come back BRAL.
Please!:( :( :(

2nd Dec 2002, 16:09
Q/ How do you bu**er up several solidly profitable companies?
A/ Sell 'em to BA of course.

2nd Dec 2002, 23:38
ETOPS could you elaborate on what you actually heard?
as the rumour mill is currently working overtime

The latest is that the Dash 8s are to be sold off to a consortium (which may or may not include Sutton Harbour that own PLH (and operate NQY) as an ex Brymon manager now holds a senior position there)
This XYZ airline will continue to operate the current BACX routes but without any of the security of BA.
I know everyone is quick to put down the 'mother company' but this alleged consortium certainly sounds a damn sight scarier, they can't manage an airport let alone an airline!

Oh and Sarl there are all the pax svcs and office based people that will lose jobs too if these rumours become fact (don't they do a good job too?) :rolleyes:

3rd Dec 2002, 07:56

Sorry to sound oblique but I didn't hear the info. If you read my original I said that this chap was "broadcasting" the plans and I was right next to him. Think "laptop" + "powerpoint" + very sharp eyesight!!!!!

4th Dec 2002, 10:59
No sign of the BIG citiexpress announcement yet then:D

Amazon man
4th Dec 2002, 13:47
I have heard from a reasonably reliable source that next Wednesday 11 Dec is the day an announcement will be made.

Don't shoot me if i'm wrong.

Nav Armed
4th Dec 2002, 17:42
And so the farce continues!!
The problem is that the only place that where Dec 4 was mentioned was here and as is more often than not it proves to be wrong."AGAIN"!!
I've no doubt that people's lives will again be messed up with no visible signs of improvement in the company with a Future Size and Shape Mk2,as it did in Mk1, but do we honestly believe that our management would close bases, get rid of fleets etc, without telling the troops first?

These are the facts:-
Yes they are reviewing fleets, as BA do on a regular basis.
Yes they are reviewing routes, as BA do on a regular basis.

This is what we have been told from TDLF himself.As for an "Announcement"? Diddly Squat!!

Suppose Wednesday's won't be the same again untill there is one though:rolleyes:

Nevermind,Soon be Christmas!!

7th Dec 2002, 22:34
This thread is too good to die. Each year the BBC brings back Frank Butcher for the Christmas edition of "East Enders" and creates great gloom for the fans therof. Why should "Rumour Control" fail its devotees this year? Has anyone asked the refuellers at SOU, especially the gentleman from Ludgershall?

Amusing though the rumours may seem, there are many who feel the cold chill of yet another job failure. North and East of Watford Gap the nights draw in quickly, and crews huddle around their braziers with glasses of excellent Brown Ale and mull over the inanities of the postings from their rich colleagues in Cheshire and Crawley who have taken over the thread. A slice of reality would help.

"Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper." So it is on "Prune." A Christmas prize for the first correct identification of the ex-policeman who wrote this.

7th Dec 2002, 23:21
George Orwell ;)

Is it correct that some Dash courses have just been halted ?

9th Dec 2002, 08:57
Wednesday 11th

Come on, be real chaps. Do you really think that TDLF, The Car Salesman, or any of the other of the so-called, big wigs, would make an announcement on a Wednesday?

They are biggest bunch of Liars, Cheats, Con-Men, etc......
These are the people that make an announcement at 1700hrs on a Friday afternoon. Just in time for which ever flight they are taking off that horrible little rock! Don;t expect anything during the week.


9th Dec 2002, 09:10
AOG007, say what you want, but don't bad mouth my "Little Rock"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

9th Dec 2002, 09:32
AOG might be less than generous about the location mid Irish Sea but he is absolutley right about the senior inhabitants of this screwed-up company's HQ on Fraggle and let's not forget the even more senior company wreckers in WSM and Olympic House.

Bendy Lady
10th Dec 2002, 14:23
have any January rosters appeared yet? they will give the game away.

10th Dec 2002, 14:38
There will be an announcement of some sort tomorrow morning, don't know what the content is but it can't be good.

11th Dec 2002, 11:18
:mad: can somebody for gods sake say what the hell is happening. Is there an announcement or not !. I knew i should have been a train driver

11th Dec 2002, 12:21
Amidst the acrimony, spare a thought for AMEX. As the winner of the prize for identifying George Orwell - real name Eric BLAIR, funny old thing - as the source of the comment on correct reporting, AMEX wins free travel for a year on any ship of the Vogon Constructor Fleet.

Amazon man
11th Dec 2002, 13:56
There was supposed to be an announcement this morning however it was cancelled yesterday afternoon. With no date set, it is anyones guess as to whether it will be this side of christmas or not

I think any announcement has to be carefully thought through with regard to the effect it could have on BA mainlines share price, and that possibly this is one of the reasons for the delay.

Lets hope its earlier rather than later, two FSS reviews in one year is enough for anybody and the sooner we know what is going on behind closed doors the better.

Lets hope 2003 is a better year for aviation and that Mr Bin Laden gets to meet the 70 virgins he so desires in the next world and in order to persuade him to go over he can have my 70 as well as an early christmas present.

Happy Christmas to one and all

11th Dec 2002, 15:55
Not sure if this is true so maybe someone can confirm it. Apparantly the NCL-DUB route is to be stopped in jan 03? I do hope this is not another nail in the coffin for the BACX staff in NCL.

Good Luck to evreyone and lets hope that your management tell you sooner, rather than keeping you hanging on!

11th Dec 2002, 16:09
And so the speculation goes on about base closures and rationalisation.
Are the management of BACE or Mainline aware of the impact all this has on the lives of people who work for them at the bases which appear to be targetted??
It isn't just about protecting share price and reputation, it's about people and I would suggest that somebody "grasps the nettle" here and starts to treat them with the honesty and integrity that they rightly deserve.
I've always worked on the premise that if I have only three minutes to live, then tell me quickly because at least I can then make a plan going forward, albeit a short lived one!!
The prospect of going into Christmas not knowing your fate is dreadful so come on BA, give your staff the truth now.


Nav Armed
11th Dec 2002, 17:57
Listen chaps.
If there is something to say, the people at CitiExpress will find out first. Is this so hard to understand?
The sort of crap that Transwede has come out with "IS" what screws people's heads in.
When, and if, it happens, it happens! But in the meantime, and i'm in the boat too, don't worry about it. There's nothing we can do about it yet anyway.
Life's too bloody short!!

Merry Christmas:( :(

Jetstream Rider
11th Dec 2002, 22:36
The rumour that I heard about not being able to book flights from Leeds after Jan is untrue, BA website still shows availability. Similarly Newcastle-Dublin still shows availability up until April at least.

Sit tight chaps and don't let the rumors get you down. When we hear, we hear, up until then enjoy yourself. The 'announcement' might have been delayed as Jet2 had a press day at Leeds today, but that is just my speculation.


11th Dec 2002, 23:21
The latest news today was
'the announcement is - there is no announcement (not yet anyway!!!)'

Although there were local press crews at PLH today and pax were asking staff when BA were pulling out as they'd heard it on the news!!!

All good reassuring stuff as usual

Welcome to mushroom land


12th Dec 2002, 07:40
It is very obvious to anyone observing the frantic goings on at Olympic House that the proposed plans to unwind the fiasco that was CitiExpress have hit major rocks. Hence no announcement again today.

Might one hazard a guess that one of the proposed buyers has decided to up the anti at the last minute to secure a better deal in the knowledge that they are dealing with a bunch of incompetent amateurs who daily demonstrate their inability to organise a drinking session in a brewery let alone run an airline?

If Eddingtom does not sever the heads of everyone and anyone associated with this shambolical and mind bendingly incompetent disaster then he is not fit to remain in office himself.

If I were one of the City clever clogs who gains intelligence from this web site and is congratulating himself on anticipating the BA share recovery.........I'd be taking my profits now. Things arent quite as rosey as you might think mate.

Amazon man
12th Dec 2002, 08:28

With all due respect unless you have hard evidence or verifiable information that the company is up for sale as you seem to suggest in your posting, then it is not very helpful to start spreading these sort of rumours amongst an already anxious workforce.

Whilst I am no fan of the present management the combining of two companies and all that involved has been an enormous task and you can't say that its been a total disaster, yes mistakes have been made and great problems have existed in operating the company on a day to day basis but it is starting to work.

And while you may have no loyalty to the present company, if you believe city types do occasionally look at this site than your last comments show you have no consideration for your colleagues whatsoever.

682ft AMSL
12th Dec 2002, 10:20
BA had a 1/4 page colour advert for their LBA routes in the local paper this week. Strange that they would choose to invest in marketing routes if the rumour-mill is accurate and the routes won't be be flown beyond March??


12th Dec 2002, 12:42
Amazon I never said the company was up for sale.

What is obvious from anecdotal evidence from colleagues around the country (absence of J41 rosters for example), statements made to Cabin Crew at NCL, press turning up to PLH and a whole host of other incidents is that some major shake up is happening-somewhere along the lines of the speculation on this thread.

It has been daily apparent that this lot are out of their depth in running a multi-based, multi-type regional airline so some form of slimmimng down and hiving off of readily disposable bits is totally logical.

My speculation is based upon these observations and that there are more than one third parties involved, one of whom is going in for the kill at 5 minutes to midnight because he knows that these incompetents have backed themselves into a corner and have to do the deal-whatever that is at any price. I supect that that is why we are all being left hanging now.

I am sorry, I think CitiExpress has been a total disaster. In terms of morale, career opportunity and job satisfaction.
We have been messed with not once, not twice but now three times in quick succession and are governed by those elements of BRAL which contained the worst that that company had to offer now with a goodly measure of some high level BA incompetence thrown in.
Out of the former profitable companies of BRAL and BRYMON there has been created a giant which thanks to the attachment of BAR is now losing money.

As to the share price issue, The price that BA stock is quoted has no bearing whatsoever on the day to day performance of the business.
It is a measure of the effectiveness or otherwise of the company to give a return to those who buy bits of paper with BA's name on. As such, BA senior managers consider the price an indication of their machismo and corporate virility. In reality it is utterly irrelevant to us.

The point that I wanted to make was that the recovery of the price over the last few weeks seems remarkably coincident with these forthcoming announcements. So much for all this Bo£$ocks about secrecy.......the city know exactly what is happening already I suggest.

Now I wonder how?

If these brokers really knew what was going on I wonder what view they might now take?

BA and CX are sick companies which need a very hefty dose of some strong corporate medicine in the guise of the obliteration of several layers of apalling mangement.

12th Dec 2002, 22:02
A Club Europe regular writes.....

1. Anyone seen December's High Life? Singing the praises of Newcastle and plugging BA routes - and specifically singing CX's praises as well... be odd if they are going to close it, but BACX management move in mysterious ways....

2. The boys and girls at CWL (surely the best looking/performing crews in existance) are getting VERY nervous.... reports that the ABZ-BHD(or is it back at BFS?)-CWL-CDG is not long for this world, since AF do CDG-ABZ direct now.....

3. Strange recurring tale.... several people I know have tried to book BACX Club seats out of Cardiff (3 or 4 at a time for a group), to be told they are all but full, so only one gets on.... to an empty plane.... what is are reservations up to?

4. Load on CWL-CDG and BRU looks pretty good these days - the cheap fares mean that there are usually 35+ on the 145, and Club is rather fuller than it was. But this has never stopped BACX management pulling disaster from the jaws of triumph....

5. CWL is quietly going down the tubes thanks mainly to those clowns at Aviance.... tonite, got off a 145, 20 minutes wait on the bus whilst they find a driver (he is marshalling another 145 onto stand apparently...... wonder if he checks passports as well??) and got to hear two Aviance monkeys having a loud slanging match with each other, complete with expletives..... Not impressive...

Do wonder if BACX at CWL is not long for this world - and sadly, it will be the really good people - the crews - who lose out. Bet no managers get the bullet. Bet no Aviance twits do either.....

Dai Rear
12th Dec 2002, 22:32
The message is going around from all but the proper sources that another mis-management monumental cock-up has occurred. We are a workforce who have shown commitment and dedication to our company over 18 difficult months. We were asked for patience, promised much, delivered more, and received very little back. A number of aircraft and bases are being disposed of with nothing to replace them with.

Be reminded how top level management have run our company. Consider the following :-
The business case made to close Bristol. Loyal and profitable staff there were made redundant. Last week, our management had the nerve to circulate around our company intranet a job vacancy for a Line Engineer at Bristol. A Bristol engineer who relocated to Edinburgh wishes to apply for the post.

The company continue to pay huge rental costs for empty Bristol premises.

6 personnel relocated from Bristol to Glasgow, being promised by Someone Whizz that Glasgow had a promising future. Some have just signed new mortgages in Glasgow. Others had their wives give up their jobs to relocate. More company cash will now be used to close down Glasgow and resurrect Bristol. What planet are these people on?

Following months of negotiation with another operator, Mr Whizz, Mr Mildew and Thick Dental Floss will shortly announce the demise of the J41 thus leaving Glasgow and other dependant bases high and dry and after paying huge amounts in personnel relocation packages. This will likely be the loss of Newcastle, Cardiff and Leeds Bradford, where only 2 months ago, BACX took on all the engineers from Nordic Aero! As there are no new aircraft to replace the J41s despite the work (!) of the FAG, the aircraft and the routes will be given away to a competitor. Our company has much past experience of giving away routes, aircraft and jobs Ė left, right and centre.
You want to fly to Cork? Here - take our route. We canít compete- costs you nothing.
You want to fly from Kirkwall to Aberdeen? Take this route. Have the aircraft as well. We canít manage.
At the slightest hint of competition our talentless mis-management withdraw.

Following the loss of the JAR 147 engineering instructors who left solely because of dissatisfaction with the management, the company had to pay a huge sum in training to contract BAe to supply training for ten company engineers to complete a J41 type course Ė just last week.
Other fleets of our aircraft are being maintained by third party engineering maintenance so that the company can close down our own facilities. Aircraft now receive as routine planned maintenance at locations not specified in the companyís capability listing.
After throwing masses of cash to diminish Bristol, masses more cash will be thrown to resurrect it and close the Glasgow Hangar. The J41s will be given away to Eastern who it is speculated will become a franchise partner. How many of the BACX crew and engineer staff they take on, if any at all, is unknown. How much loss in pay they are offered for the privilege of remaining in a job with a company with a poor reputation . . .
The Bristol personnel who relocated to Glasgow 2 months ago will be offered a relocation package back to Bristol. Itís all a bad joke.
It doesnít take a crystal ball to see the Isle of Man facility will be next. Rob Sperm has already relocated to Manchester.
The talentless mis-management do nothing to confirm rumours or allay a loyal workforceís fears.
The talentless mis-management are now a liability who have lost the plot. What are their mis-management qualifications? They are disgraced, despised, disloyal, discredited and dishonourable. Their integrity, ability and credibility is plain for all to see. The talentless mis-mismanagement sit back detached in their ivory tower and refuse to confirm or allay a loyal and worried workforces fears.

I hope Rod Eddington is watching.:)

12th Dec 2002, 23:14
Twin Aisle,
Thanks for the vote of support, but I should point out that the bus drivers are employed by 'Airway Handling', a subsidiary of 'Servisair' and they are even worse at organising things. They (sic) allocate the parking spots,in their capacity of 'Apron Controllers' (joke)
so they should know to send a bus driver out.....happens with everyone not just BA flights.

Dai Rear,
You should mail that reply to Rod Eddington,his address is in the corporate directory.

13th Dec 2002, 09:01
Good post Dai

Every one of us has got a tale to tell of the most blistering and money wasting incompetence.

What emerges from this whole sorry tale of woe is that CitiExpress is out of control and there is no one within the present shower capeable of managing it. The bunker mentality of reducing back to BAR and getting rid of profitable routes and bases in the regions is melting CX back down to the very roots it was created from.

Instead of sacking David Evans and Rob Hearn for starters and a whole host of other similarly incompetent managers further up the line, the self same idiots who got us into this mess apparently still enjoy the confidence of Rod. That they are now being given a third chance (in 18 months!!) to get it right (at our expense) beggars belief.

Nav Armed
13th Dec 2002, 09:32
Dai, your a F#&king star!!
You've got to send that to skippy.

13th Dec 2002, 09:39
Nav Armed correct me if I'm wrong is this or is this not a rumour site? If so then there is no need to get on your moral high ground and roll out the pet lip!

Infact the rumour I mentioned earlier is true. BACX are pulling off the NCL/DUB route, being replaced by none other than Aer Lingus, who correct me if I'm wrong stopped the route when the old Brymon started a code share. Looks like another nail in the coffin for NCL!?

13th Dec 2002, 11:10
Having whizzed through all the goss. I can confirm the main thrust of aircraft going and base closures are all along the correct line. Announcement delayed, that is the worrying bit!

13th Dec 2002, 11:16
Maybe the first cat out of a large bag?

From the BA web page: Press news 13th Dec 2002

British Airways is to switch its current aircraft order with Airbus to receive 10 A321 aircraft instead of 12 A318 aircraft and three A319 aircraft.

The airlineís capital spend with Airbus for the orders placed in 1998 and 1999 remains unchanged.

The 108-seater A318s and the 126-seater A319s were ordered originally to be based at regional airports in the UK. However, as part of its fleet simplification strategy, British Airwaysí has decided to base its Airbus fleet at Londonís Heathrow and Gatwick airports and re-deploy its fleet of 16 110-seater RJ100 aircraft from Gatwick to the British Airways CitiExpress fleet at regional airports.

682ft AMSL
13th Dec 2002, 12:33
Transwede - Just been shown a timetable for Aer Aaran Express operating on NCL-DUB from the new year. 2 x daily with an ATR-42.


13th Dec 2002, 14:09
I remember TdlF telephoning me as a regular customer when he had first joined BACX telling now they had got the 145 even BRS weather would be no problem............
Look at the schedule today, cancellations galore, and GO flying their passengers from Scotland to Bristol!
Clearly a far-sighted fellow!

13th Dec 2002, 18:27
Latest information from a Handling Agent Manager is that Eastern Airways have bought routes and J41 aircraft, at Newcastle. No mention was made of jobs for current BACX staff etc. This comes as no shock especially when Aer Arran are starting NCL/DUB service with effect 6 Jan and rumour has it they are doing the same route out of LBA and SOU, in place of CX.

And please................DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!

Its a shame that CX management are treating their loyal and dedicated troops so badly. Indeed the BACX crew I have come into contact with are better than ones at my current airline.Someone in CX needs to take their heads and fingers from their arse and tell the staff what the hell is going on and stop playing with their lifes! Maybe then the people affected could get back on track, with maybe a better company!

14th Dec 2002, 11:22
If someone could explain to me the rationale about not telling the workforce that restructuring plans were being evaluated I would go to bed tonight a happy man. As it is all I am hearing, and reading, are rumours, speculations and in some cases scare mongering. The truth of the matter is that the management are looking upwards instead of downwards. It's no use securing the roof of the buillding if the foundations are crumbling away. The Easyjet road show is taking place next week at the very hotel in NCL that the BACX nomads from CWL and BHX have been staying in the best part of this year thanks to FSAS1. Surely the management team are aware of the venue of this road show and yet still no official word from on high as to what is going with regard to a restructuring of assets and bases, nor a date for an official date for an announcement. I think it is an absolute disgrace and a total lack of respect from the people in Olympic House for us.

Nav Armed
14th Dec 2002, 13:13
Transwede:Ok,point taken.I see what your trying to say but please try and understand the position of the guy's who are directly involved with this, of which I am one of them, who constantly read as you correctly put it "Rumours"which the messenger claims to be true!! I'm directly involved in the various routes that you mentioned and I've not heard a dicky bird.Our management, who have obviously never been introduced to the concept of CRM, ie communication! haven't said anything. Suppose that's what i've come to expect now though.

Nothing personal Transwede, but i'm sure you can appreciate how bloody frustrated myself and my colleages are, at being treated like S@#T.
Just upto Christmas too. GREAT EH!
Professional mushrooms!! That's what we've become.:mad:

ACE Dispatcher
14th Dec 2002, 17:31
Rumours I've heard:

1. LBA BACX base to close. Eastern Airways to takeover
ABZ/SOU/BRS routes with J41's/J32's.
BA to keep LGW route with larger a/c. (DH3/AR1??)
Aer Lingus or Aer Arann to takeover DUB route.

2. ATP's to replace J41's at LBA?? (very doubtfull!)

3. DH3 to operate BRS-LBA-DUB-BRS at the same time as BRS-DUB-LBA-BRS.

stalling attitude
15th Dec 2002, 10:31
a few weeks ago i read someone on here telling a BA mainline pilot to get over the fact that some mainline work ( the RJ100's) would be going to BACX because they were cheaper.
it now appears that if the rumours are true some of BACX's work is going to be farmed out to a cheaper operator ie Eastern which just proves no-one is safe.

and perhaps more ominously for the future dont Eastern also operate EMB135s .

sad !!!:( i hope im just a pessimist

Dai Rear
16th Dec 2002, 12:51
Have been contacted by my boss in the mis-management team.
Sunday Times article has forced their hand and big announcement officially tomorrow - unless they change their mind. Would they do that?
Get it hard right up the lot of them.

16th Dec 2002, 16:10
Well that just sums it up! Months of the staff hearing rumours, trying to get any response from management as to the truth (even with middle management being stonewalled). And now within hours of the press picking up the word, an announcement will be made. As long as we know where we stand (lower on the pecking order than a dung beetle).

16th Dec 2002, 20:47
Well that's it, I have just had the manager on the phone a meeting is set for 9am at LBA tomorrow morning!!
On the positive side at least the waiting is over and we will all soon know our fate!!:( :( :(

16th Dec 2002, 21:39
I don't know whether this is a coincidence but we are waiting for the final pay deal details to come through with, it is rumoured, a scope deal attached to it. The fact that BACX is getting an announcement about the future tomorrow will look more than a little like a coincidence, not, if our deal slaps onto our doorsteps as well!

I wish everyone luck and hope all remain employed after this is over.

16th Dec 2002, 21:44
All anyone can really say is good luck to everybody at BACE. I just hope that it isn't as bad as has been suggested in so many of the postings - you all deserve better treatment than has been demonstrated by some extremely poor senior management.
Nothing short of disgraceful what has been seen to this point!