Helicopter flying in Germany. [Archive]

Flying Lawyer

7th Nov 2002, 15:00

What you've heard is almost beyond belief, but apparently true.
I've never needed to research the German regs for professional purposes, but my understanding of the position is:

(1) Professional pilots can obtain a general permission from the German CAA to land/take off away from authorised heliports for the purpose of commercial flights.

(2) A pilot on a private flight cannot cannot land at a private site without obtaining specific permission even if he holds a CPL(H).

(3) Obtaining permission for a private flight is not a formality, even if the pilot is a CPL(H). The authorities usually insist on inspecting the site, and impose conditions. Presumably, they don't consider even qualified commercial pilots have the ability to make their own judgement.

(4) If you don't have a CPL(H) your application is almost invariably refused.

I've been told by a German friend that the 'reasoning' (his word, not mine) behind these stupid restrictions is that if all helicopter pilots were allowed to just fly around and land where they want, when they wants, then why bother getting a CPL?

I don't understand the logic :rolleyes: - but I'm not German!

Moral of the story: Avoid Germany if you want an enjoyable helicopter flying holiday! :)

Tudor Owen
http://www.mwhelicopters.co.uk/MWHelicopters%20Right.gif

john du'pruyting

7th Nov 2002, 15:13

Don't laugh if these rules seem tight (if they are true). They are quite lax compared to the previous ones (circa 1989) which excluded civil helicopters from landing anywhere other than a licensed aerodrome at any time (at least, thats what Udi from Itzehoe said...):cool:

Flying Lawyer

7th Nov 2002, 16:49

J d'P
You're right to add "if they are true". I stress I haven't looked myself, and I still have difficulty believing that they could possibly be true - but my German friend assured me those are the rules.

Looks like Germany's a tempting place for a holiday if you're an enthusiastic driver with a high performance car, but certainly not for a private helicopter flying.

soggyboxers

7th Nov 2002, 18:58

I don't know how much of Europe has these restrictions for helicopters, but it use to be just as bad in France, where you required a Helisurface Permit to land anywhere other than at an airoport or licensed heliport. The permit used to be valid for just 6 months and used to take 4-5 months to arrive, so it only had about a month or two of its validity left by the time you got it! I don't know if the situation has changed, but it looks as if it's just not worth having a helicopter in a lot of European countries if these are the sorts of bureaucratic rules they have. We may complain about the CAA, but at least we haven't got the draconian rules some other European countries have to put up with.
:eek:

Vortex what...ouch!

8th Nov 2002, 13:09

Thanks for that FL. That pretty much agrees with the info I had been given. Guess the Germans circuits are connected slightly different to ours. ;)

We whinge a lot about how the CAA frustrate our flying but we really don’t do badly compared to a lot of the rest of Europe. :rolleyes:

Guess I can take Germany off the list of places to go flying. :(

WestWind1950

8th Nov 2002, 14:06

Vortex what...ouch!

What Flying Lawyer reported is pretty much the truth. The reason behind it is really the dense population, the noise problems existing all over and the misuse of the existing rules by some pilots.

We in Germany often complain of our restrict regulations, but as mentioned above other countries have even stricter rules. I heard that there is absolutly no legal VFR nicht flying in Holland (and also Belgium?). We don't have much VFR night flying here because of lack of available airfields, but it is legal to do so (on a flight plan basis).

So where in some areas we are more strict ("usually" with good reasons), in other areas we may be more lenient. I guess that goes for all countries.

Come fly in Germany and enjoy yourself!

keep flying!
WestWind

tecpilot

8th Nov 2002, 18:14

In Germany we have a compulsion to use airfields. It's one of the elementary aerial laws. That means that any offside landing ( with all kinds of a/c !!! ) needs an official permit. For special purposes you can get a general permission. All professional helicopter operators have a general permission according to their proposals.

You can get a general permission as a commercial pilot also for private or executive flights.

You can get a permission for an offside landing (general or specific) also as a private pilot, provided that you have enough flight experience, the owner of the area and the local police or mayor agrees to.

Germany is a federal republic. At each country is a special authorithy responsible for the permissions. And in each country exists different views to the topic.

It's possible that the local authority insists of a special checkride with one of the their examiners or that you have at minimum 300 flighthours... Depends on the officer... You must demonstrate your qualification by logbook, checkride or... or... !

Reasons:
Dense population, noise, private property, environment protection, lot of airspace restriction due to the intensive traffic, ...

And most german private helicopter pilots are very unexperienced and bad trained due to the very expensive helicopter costs ( 1h R 22 > 300€ + dues, Jetranger > 650€ ), restrictions and flying not more than 5-10 flighthours each year. That caused a lot of accidents. Therefore the authorities checking strictly.

The Flashing Blade

12th Nov 2002, 11:09

If you are looking at flying near Berlin, there is a helicopter school at Schonhagen just south of the city with Schweizer 300s and an EC120.
There is apparently a route over the city that can be flown beneath controlled airspace that takes you directly over all the sites, Tempelhof airport, the TV tower, Unter den Linden Brandenburg Gate and more besides.
Planning to do this trip myself in a few weeks.

Heliport

12th Nov 2002, 11:28

Sounds like a good flight.
Please tell us about it when you've done it.

Still doesn't make exploring/touring Germany by helicopter a very attractive option though.

Nomads

13th Nov 2002, 04:44

Get the relevant Jeppesen VFR charts for the area(s) you want to fly through and plan a route that way there are plenty of smaller airfields certainly in germany. I flew from Holland to eastern Poland this summer and had no problems.

As for landing off airfield in Holland: you have to get permission from the property owner AND permission from the counsel of the area where you land this all in writing ofcourse.
Then at least 24hrs before the proposed flight you need to fax the dutch CAA and Aviation police with your details.

There are also various heliports within Holland you possibly could use as well.

Safe Flying
;)

onegabel

20th Aug 2009, 09:24

Hallo
Can someone tell me what the regulations are in Germany for landing outside an airfield or heliport with a helicopter (of course :))???

And the contact details of the German General aviation authorities??

Just to be clear it's a one time landing, non-commercial......

thank you

topendtorque

20th Aug 2009, 12:09

This reminds me of a unique pleasure that we had the other day here. It turns out that a rellie of ours marries the daughter of a manager dude from a large HEMS outfit operating in Germany, Austria and Italy. He looks after 40 or so machines on the German operation and 70 odd drivers.

They all turned up here for a day or so, talk about a United Nations, we had around the dinner table, a couple, young poms from sheffield, Two estonians girls, one a scholar of Ag science the other holds a degree in archeology?, a frenchman (ag student), four germans, a canadian girl, four os us oz's and three Mexicans. Well that's what we call Victorians.

anyrate, Gorge the german, had a great day being checked out in Mustering and then doing a check ride with yours truly. he was really impressed with the Robinson and the mustering techniques, absolutely amazed that we didn't just yahoo around like a bunch of cowbows.

He talked about an uncomfortable trip that he had when he did a donk in a BK a few years back, and relevant to this thread, he had to fly in recovery mode at very low level along a very populous section of the Rhine for a good ways, but the company did not draw one noise complaint.

We didn't talk at all about other GA or Private flying, but I will contact him when he gets home and seek his opinion.

skadi

20th Aug 2009, 14:46

Hi onegabel,
the authorities for off-airfield landings are the so called "Landesluftfahrtbehörden" , so you have different ones for several regions of germany.

Heres the list of all the german authorities:

LBA A-Z (http://www.lba.de/nn_311258/DE/Oeffentlichkeitsarbeit/FAQs/A__Z__Landesluftfahrtbehoerden.html)

skadi

delta3

20th Aug 2009, 15:33

My experience

-> I have to fly to Germany from Belgium. I also did some type ratings in Germany : offsite is a no go. The procedure communicated by FL is correct, but in practise one has to contact so many districts that is is hardly practical. Even for CPL's this is considered "an exception", so cannot be planned 14 days in advance because then he probably could and should organise for an alternative transportation (call a cab)...

-> Holland : Again the said procedure by Nomads is correct, so possible, but the 24hrs only will only work if the township has some experience with it (for instance Hotels etc that have some landing experience, so that the secretary of the maire/counsel is knowledgeable and efficient). Otherwise I apply the rule : if it costs more time to get the permit than to drive to the next airport, why bother....

m2c

Runway101

20th Aug 2009, 15:47

It's in § 25 LuftVG (due to the lack of English version here is the German quote)

(1) Luftfahrzeuge dürfen außerhalb der für sie genehmigten Flugplätze nur starten und landen, wenn der Grundstückseigentümer oder sonst Berechtigte zugestimmt und die Luftfahrtbehörde eine Erlaubnis erteilt hat.

Freely translated: Aircrafts may start and land outside of authorized airports only when the land owner or otherwise authorized person agrees and the aeronautical authority has issued a permit.

Same article, Section 2 (2), deals about precautionary or emergency landings.

I had to go down in a field in Germany last December, because of a door popping open. After I was back on base, I checked regulations to see what they say about this unscheduled precautionary landing. Art. 25 S 2 (2) LuftVG is your friend, says you can land and subsequently takeoff for safety reasons (note, you cannot take off again if it was an emergency landing). However, what you have to do is to leave your contact and insurance details with the landowner, so that he can claim damages in case there are any. He then cannot prevent you from taking off again. Seems this paragraph also deals with hot air balloons ("when the landing site cannot be predetermined because of the type of aircraft").

Being in Germany, I was waiting for the police to call in and ask about the incident. Thankfully didn't happen.

This no-offsite landing rule in Germany (Austria as well, by the way) sucks, but on the other hand there are plenty of small (and cheap) airfields in Germany and you are welcome almost anywhere with a helicopter. Even PPR ones are usually happy for anybody to come in and may even assist you with transportation etc...

Phil77

20th Aug 2009, 17:10

Not trying to be a smart ass or ignorant, but since I almost solely use the helicopter for my job I can't really relate to spending 100's or 1000's bucks an hour for fun - it just doesn't sound all that "recreational" to me; but then again, I'm fortunate to make a living with what others would pay for...

My question (assuming for the sake of an argument that germany would have the same regs as the US or UK): except for the remote chance you have a friend/relative in germany that has a big enough property (like Runway101 said: very densely populated), why would you try to arrange agreements with a stranger (e.g. farmer/landowner) just to land off airport, when its probably be safer on an airfield (security, fuel, maintenance etc.) just 15 min driving distance away?

I have certainly made my share of "commercial" landings off airport here in the US, but even in the land of the free some states require an official offsite landing permit (NJ for example)). I have yet to meet a person that would plan a cross country journey with landings on some random farmers field, lets say to camp.

Final word: lets say if nothing else, this overregulation in my home country is another example why I enjoy my profession and life overseas - although I still love my motherland and miss it at times.

generalspecific

21st Aug 2009, 00:52

have to say that my one experience of flying heli's in Germany was not a lot of fun. Didn't have a JAA licence at that point, but had a CPL from a decent ICAO state plus currency on a 44. So took an instructor who insisted on flying from the right seat, wouldn't let me touch the controls below 300 ft and then followed through quite heavily when I did have the controls.

Then took control when we flew down a valley because it is "always quite tubulent here" and then much to my surprise didn't back the speed off at all but sat there looking very tense and taking little or no action while i suggested something in the 70's might be better than something in the 120's !

As we fought our way back on the controls I finally got bored and handed her back control only to get a 30 degree yaw as I took my feet of the pedals as i didn't even realsie how much we had been pushing against each other.

Then on further questioning I discovered that she had half the TT that I did and 1/4 of the R44 time... oh and then there was the cost :ugh:

Not a rant against German aviation, well maybe a bit :p but it was a shocker..

Runway101

21st Aug 2009, 08:28

Nothing against you personally, generalspecific, but with a Hong Kong PPL holder on board I would also want to follow through on the controls. Just kidding of course...

generalspecific

21st Aug 2009, 09:12

aha, but you assume I have a PPL and one from Hong Kong as my primary ;)

I is proper trained and everyfing.

I can do a stable hover within the confines of a 1 acre field
Given it is Hong Kong, I once went on a 15 nm cross country solo
Fuel is very very expensive though so i don't like carrying a resrve or anything as it just wastes money

Frankly though I am a bit rusty as my maid does most of the flying these days :p

hat on....

northpoint

27th Aug 2009, 10:36

Just to update soggyboxers info on France.
You still do need a Helisurface Landing Permit, or Attestation to give it it's correct title, to land off airfield at designated helicopter landing sites in France.

The current permit lasts for 10 years and best of all, IT IS FREE. When was the last time you got a deal like that in aviation? It can indeed take a while for the permit to arrive but generally speaking it is around 6-10 weeks.

For the avoidance of doubt the permit is in the name of the pilot, does not refer to any particular helicopter and covers all regions of continental France.

Permit inspections do take place, I have had mine inspected twice. As everything was in order there were smiles all round but the officials did mention that fines for not having one can range from €3,000 to €30,000 and your helicopter may also be impounded.

belldriver

25th Nov 2009, 12:47

Hello,

I need to visit a place in germany as it is quite far from any airfields and the place is big enough I would like to land there, does anybody has an idea whats involved in landing a helicopter away from airfields in germany ?

Tried looking at the german CAA website whitout any luck

Belldriver

JTobias

25th Nov 2009, 16:25

Hi

I am not in any way certain, but I believe that you can't do off airfield landings in Germany. (Which is bloody ridiculous, if I am correct)

Joel

Phil77

25th Nov 2009, 17:05

Yes "ridiculous" is the right word!

...and therefore "no" is the right answer in your case.

I mean it is possible, you "just" need the following:
- request permission in writing with the Luftfahrtbundesamt
- holder of a CPL(H)
- need a "commercial" reason
- about 2-4 weeks time to wait for the approval

The above is hearsay, but confirmed with multiple sources - out of interest I tried to find the forms or information/regulation myself to no avail.
:ugh:

Flying Bull

25th Nov 2009, 22:48

Hi Belldriver,

you need the permit of the landowner
and with that you can apply for a "Aussenlandegenehmigung" at the
Landesluftfahrtbehörde, which is responsible for that area.
You find the adresses here:
LBA Links (http://www.lba.de/nn_53944/DE/Oeffentlichkeitsarbeit/A__Z/A__Z__Landesluftfahrtbehoerden.html)
It may take a while - some allow PPL(H), other require CPL(H) and it will cost some €.....
Some require fotos of the site....

Greetings Flying Bull

Helicaz

27th Nov 2009, 09:14

"there are plenty of small (and cheap) airfields in Germany and you are welcome almost anywhere with a helicopter. Even PPR ones are usually happy for anybody to come in and may even assist you with transportation etc... "

Any recommendations? I haven't really seen much of Germany yet and excuses to go flying are always appreciated!

hueyracer

27th Nov 2009, 10:10

I come from Germany-where do you want to go?
North, East, West.....

What do you want to see-and how long do you want to stay?

Helicaz

27th Nov 2009, 10:56

Never really been East.. Would like to hang around for a couple of days practicing my (very bad) German - interesting scenery to fly around is also a bonus!

hueyracer

27th Nov 2009, 11:50

If you fly to the East, you HAVE to see the former Hangar of Cargolifter, which is now a holiday paradise....

Tropical Islands > Besucher (http://www.tropical-islands.de/)

The beautiful village of Dresden is also worth one or two days....
Landeshauptstadt Dresden - Tourismus (http://www.dresden.de/dtg/index.php)

You will find lots of small airfields where you land and park your aircraft very cheap....

md 600 driver

14th Aug 2012, 06:12

Landed in Germany late last night the official was asking for a noise certificate for the gazelle anyone know what he wants? Where do we get one from ?
Steve

gsa

14th Aug 2012, 06:25

No Idea but here's a start.

Noise Certificates | Aircraft | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1407&pageid=8140)

RVDT

14th Aug 2012, 07:16

If the Type Certificate was issued after 1986 it would have one in the RFM by way of how it complies etc etc. otherwise NA.

Just tell the nice German Official it doesn't have one because of it's age. He will understand.

BGS still thunder around in 212's in Germany.

mfriskel

14th Aug 2012, 07:34

I landed in Hannover in 01 in a 600 and they charged the landing fee based on the number printed in the RFM.

RVDT

14th Aug 2012, 07:49

I landed in Hannover in 01 in a 600 and they charged the landing fee based on the number printed in the RFM

Based on that they might be charging Steve for a truck to take it away! :p

Spunk

14th Aug 2012, 08:38

In Germany the landing fee is based on your MTOM and your noise level. If you are able to present a noise certificate your landing fee decreases significantly.

The max. allowable noise level is described in ICAO Annex 16 Volume 1 (Chapter VIII for helicopters certified after 1985 and Chapter XI for small helicopters (< MTOM 3175 kg) certified after 1993).

ICAO Annexes in English (http://www.bazl.admin.ch/dokumentation/grundlagen/02643/index.html?lang=de)

If you don't have a noise certificate it might get expensive.

ericferret

14th Aug 2012, 08:40

Doubt saying that the aircraft is pre 86 is going to help. Our Cessna which is 1968 has one issued by the CAA. Simple enough to get, reissued to us as EASA form 45 in 2008.
I actually thought every aircraft had one.

Chopper Doc

14th Aug 2012, 08:50

I don't think many Enstroms have one.

RVDT

14th Aug 2012, 09:43

Doubt saying that the aircraft is pre 86 is going to help

Sorry but it does.

To quote EASA TCDSN data -

This aircraft type conforms with the provisions of Article 6.1 of Regulation 216/2008 without the need to comply with the Standards of ICAO Annex 16, Volume I, by virtue of the date of type certification

As I said before - it's too old, it's too old, it's too old, it's too old, it's too old, it's too old.

Anybody else hear an echo?

Many thanks to the "grandfather" sitting in the "sunset".

md 600 driver

14th Aug 2012, 17:22

The nice German official this morning agreed that when the gazelle was made they didn't have noise certificates I gave him a few of the free sweets I claimed off the hotel counter earlier in the morning and all was well

Now in Poland having fun getting into Ukraine now that's a different story were going to be here a few days it's only 3 hours on sleezey jet

Steve