I'm stuck with my ATP FAA, who to blame of his disaster?

[ronchonner]

hello,
after viewing several of your posts, I arrive at the conclusion :
1:no job in europe unless to pay thousand of eurodollars to a school.
2:no possible come back to europe even for EU citizen with little less than 2000h.
3:age limit of 30-35 for airline
resultat:I will come back to europe and ask my goverment to pay me thousand of eurodollars for compensation.
I love the social system, who to blame???
I would like your comments.

[Captain Mainwaring]

You are to blame!
It was your money and your decision.
When you did your thorough research into where to train and what licence to get did anyone promise you anything?

[AMEX]

You really are a bore now (ref: recent previous post).

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[TipTop]

ronchonner,

In previous posts you have stated the fact that you are a "true pilot!" who fly's commercially, who has real experience etc...! Now you're saying that you are stuck with an FAA ATP and it's a complete disaster! There is a great deal of inconsistency in your stories.
I think it is plain to see that the problem lies a little closer to home.
The boys and girls who train for Euro licenses, have worked very hard and spent a lot of money to get where they want to be. I myself had a choice(as many others) to which license to pursue, however, I choose what I thought to be the best and not what I thought to be the easiest!
I'm sorry for you if you were given bad advice when you first started training. The fault however, does not lie with European ways!

[JJflyer]

So TipTop and all other whiners including Rochasomething...

Well. You people are really starting to p.ss me off And I mean big time.

I've got an FAA ATP as well As an Aruban and a Cayman Islands. And I can tell you that it was no easy way for me. I worked my hide off to get in to the large airplanes.
It is apparent in from you post that you think that you are something special and somehow better since you did so much hard training in Europe and paid more for it. Frankly I am offended about that sort of attitude.

I started to fly in 1992. After I got my private licence, I completed all the groundschools in Europe including Instrument, Multi,Commercial and ATP.
Later in 1997 I repeated all this in US. So before you tell me that I don't know what the difference in training between Europe and US is, be assured I definately do know.

At the time when I did my decicion to do training in US it was a good 40% cheaper there than in EU. For me money was the issue not wheather it would be easier or not.
Also I had a J1 Visa to start with and that made it possible to work in US. This I did until about a year ago when it became easier to get a job in EU.

There is no such a thing as being stuck with a FAA licence, make best out of it or get on with getting a JAA licence.
STOP whining about things that you cannot affect in anyways.

If you have a greencard stay in US , there is really no better place to be for a lowtime pilot right now.
A good friend of mine went in to a B1900D job as F/O and after 2 months he moved to seats and is now a Captain.He got this immediately upon reaching 1500 hours.
With FAA ATP 1500TT and miserable 100 turbine You are not going to get a job in EU, PERIOD. Get over it man.

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 19 March 2001).]

[RVR800]

What this thread highlights is the importance
of thorough research before commencing a course of flying training.

Conversion from one regulatory domain
to another is not cheap. This is because of the quite unique weather we have in Europe which makes higher standards essential-tongue in cheek

All too often people (like our colleague here)believe the hype of the advertisements
- take heed people

[ronchonner]

well , guys,apparently u do nt understand so much in the aviation business.
when i start to fly , 8-9 years ago, things was different.but by the time, things have changed and lot of rules have changed too.
I take the exemple of your CAP course in england, how many guys have start the training in england and then the british government told:stop, we are JAA now, you have to restart from scratch!
when i start in the USA, it was easier to convert,by the time i finish in the USA, it was too late so i decided to continue in the USA and fly where i could find a job. I found jobs...lot of crappy jobs with low pay and i build time like this.
and this is for people thinking that i chosed the easiest way: I worked 16h/day to build time, paid 8$/hour.I fly in bad weather,during the night, I can sleep only 2 days per week in my bed.
the easiest way,well, come here! and let see how long it will take you for your ATP.??
the easiest way is http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gifay lot of money to a school, pass lot of written test,stay at home to study,in a nice confortableroom with momy cooking some puddings for you.
I spoke with captainsflying metroliner, do you think you could fly such plane???
the guys here, works hard, and these guy are pilots.not some academicians checking boxes during a JAR tests!
go fly!

[little red train]

"how many guys have start the training in england and then the british government told:stop, we are JAA now"

None, the CAA have moved many goalposts to allow those in the CAA system to continue to slip in throught the back door.

"I found jobs...lot of crappy jobs with low pay and i build time like this."

Lucky you, In the UK there are only a FEW crappy jobs.

"I worked 16h/day to build time, paid 8$/hour."

You get 16 hrs a day!!! and get paid!!! your way ahead of many Euro-guys

"well, come here! and let see how long it will take you for your ATP.??"

Study Gliem 1 day
Take Lasergrade test next, results instantly.

Ron, Your English may be a downfall in prospective job interviews, whilst you may frown on us "academicians" We do learn spell good andgrammer,

I really don't want to p|ss people of here, PPrune is a great help to me and others, also its a social thing (I Like my room and mommys puddings!) And bitter, unconstructive, disruptive people wasting bandwith does get a bit annoying after 27 posts or so.

Please, Stick with PPrune, Use but don't abuse. Theres a great deal to share and learn, and largely unfounded, misguided rants only bring down the whole atmpsophere.

I wish you all the Luck with finding a job, bear in mind the airline are going to hire who thay want, you cant change that, no matter how hard you puff.

[ronchonner]

ok,ok!!!my english sucks.i agree!
duty time is 15h, i was paid by flight hours (max 8h).

what is an ATP frozen, a new Ice cream from Nestle??
it does nt take 1 hour for the ATP(1500h), but 5-8 years if you are an EU citizen!
ATP with 250 h, that s a joke!!!!
why not frozen space shuttle pilot???!!!!
because i am! (i see you to come with this comment:" stay in orbit!!!")...

[Jetheat]

Well, what can I say.

I think I should speak here, coz I have completed an ATPL in the US as well as in the UK.

I saved up £14,000 in the UK by slogging my ar$e off doing 12 hour shifts continuously for two years. Sold off everything. Got the 14k and said to my mum "See u in three years time". Off to sunny Florida I went.

As I was dedicated to learning how to fly, I spent all my time studying and flying. I became an Instructor within 8 months and by that time I had about $1000 left in my account. The 14k went towards flying and living. The best thing about flying in the States was that my 14k went a long way.
As soon as I had my Instructors licence, I started to instruct and make money. As we all know, an Instructors pay is never enough; I went to the local supermarket and got a job as a Camera Development person. This allowed me to pay for the rent whilst I built up my hours towards gaining an FAA ATPL.

As soon as I got the FAA ATPL, I returned to London, England after 3 long years. (Boy, I was glad to be back).

Now I had no money and yet I had to find a way to convert my FAA licence to a CAA one. How on earth are u meant to do that without borrowing money.
This is where luck came in: I found a job paying roughly £200-£300 per day.
So I worked on the weekends and on weekdays whenever I could whilst I started my ATPL Ground Studies at the London Guildhall University.
Of course, the studies were 5 times harder than what I had learnt in the States. The English CAA (now JAA) exams are very stringent. It wasn't just a case of memorising the book and then giving your test the next day with a 99% pass (as in the States).
In the UK, it was pure hardcore studying. U have to know your material. This is what diffrentiates the men from the boys, The amount and type of knowledge u possess!

However, after about 7-8 months, I had all the ground work out of the way and now it was onto the flying.
The scariest thought about flying in England is the cost. Especially if you fail and have to redo the whole exam again with more Instruction. The Seneca hire is approximately £4 a minute - About £300-£400 per flight. What happens when u are so near the exam and your money runs out? This was the predicament. Luckily, I passed before the money ran out (Thank God). I don't know what I would have done otherwise.
Well, after passing all the Ground and Flight exams, I was absolutely elated. I was now ready to tell all the airlines that I possesed a CAA and an FAA ATPL giving me the best of both worlds. How wrong was I?

I found out the hard way. Nobody cares if you have an FAA ATPL. They hardly care if you have a CAA one either. I believe its more about the type of time you have.

After I passed, I sent a perfect CV to virtually every single airline in the UK. Hell, I even bought a great presenter and sent the CV in that, incurring more expense.

Sadly, letter after letter, rejection after rejection, I didn't get anywhere.
I kept asking myself, I have 1550 hours, whats wrong with these people? Are they blind? Even people with less hours are being called up.
Eventually I got a break and I was called for an Interview with Aer Lingus.
Unfortunately, do to my actions or attitude at the interview, I was refused the job.
So I promised myself from that point onwards that, if ever I had another interview, I would conduct myself with the highest integrity and that I would ace the Interview.
I kept waiting and waiting. Nothing at all. Nothing.
After waiting for another 13 months, (13 MONTHS), I got called to City Flyer.
I aced the Interview but they said that I could only proceed to the Sim stage if I went and renewed my IR. This was another huge expense I had to go through. However, since flying is what it's all about, I went and renewed my IR for a cost of £1200. (Exam alone was £800). Went I went for the Sim Check, I could tell, the Sim Examiner's behaviour, was not favourable to a young first timer. On top of that, I made a mistake in the sim by turning the wrong way which of course, led to my failure.
Not giving up, I continued my search and lo behold, after 2 months, another interview with KLM uk.
This time I decided not to tell anyone about my Interview until I had a result from the airline.

I passed the Interview and I passed the Sim Check 2 weeks later.

At that time, I was the happiest person in the world. All your training and efforts flashe before your very eyes. 3 years in America, 1 year in UK training/conversion and then 20 months of hard frustration and waiting. This was the moment I had been waiting for, for so long. 4 years of hard work had just paid off! Imagine how you would feel. So now, I'm waiting to start training for the F50 in June. Relaxing till then.
I can't thank KLM uk enough for giving me this opportunity and I definately wont let them down coz this is what I've been wanting to do all along. And now that I have it, I wont let go!

[JJflyer]

Do I think I could fly a Metroliner???

Isn't that a cute little twin that seats 19 pax? The one they affectionately call " San Antonio Sewerpipe" by its looks and qualities.

Well. I did my time in the SA227 flying nightfreight under pt135 then I flew a PA31 again pt135. Over 600 hours in the Chieftain and about 300 in the Metro. I averaged around 500 USD after taxes and let me tell you , that is not enough for living expenses let alone rent.
Nobody sad that the road to " Big pretty airplanes " would be easy. For some it is faster, but there are no real shrotcuts. You pay your dues and move on.
I prefer flying rather than sitting in the class for 6 months and going through same subject for the third time. Both ways are hard in their ways.

JJ

[TipTop]

JJflyer,

Somewhat of a 'knee-jerk Reaction'.
At no point have I/did I/would I; say anything detrimental towards the FAA side of things. You don't even know who I am or where I work or what license(s) I hold. Sure, you have your opinion, but if other opinions p*ss you off, then don't read what they have to say!
Your experiences may not be the same as others.
With all due respect..TipTop

[JJflyer]

Tip Top.
I Never said it was your opinnion that I found upsetting... On the contrary. You are entiteled to your opinnion, It was the tone of your post. But not you alone. Have to admit that I am guilty of this myself every now ad then.
You are also correct that I don't know what licence/s or rating/s you hold or have held, if any. Would it make you more credible ??? Does it make a difference? Not in my books.


JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 20 March 2001).]

[TipTop]

I will apologise if my post upset you. However, by putting my age at the end of your post, was that some kind of condescending maneuver designed to psychologically put me in my place? Ha!

Tip....

[RVR800]

Ronchonner =

TONY FERRINI = ALAN PARTRIDGE

Ha Ha very amusing

[Gucci Cockpit]

JetHeat,

Well done, very inspiring and up lifting.
Hope you do well throughout your career.

------------------
"Mayday Mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[Superfly]

Well Ronchonner,

Looks like you'll have to do what you were moaning about last week >1) speak very nicely to your banker. 2) study hard the JAR subject and learn how to become a proper JAR answering machine 3) brownnose your Instructor or any chief pilot you know in order to get a position 4) get mommy to do your cooking while you study very hard >>>>>>> If it's the way you see it !! but please stop moaning about eveything because whatever the situation a wanabee can be in >>>> IT IS Bl@@DY HARD !!!!!

[Jetheat]

Thanks for the nice words Gucci

[ronchonner]

jet heat,
thank you for your long comment about ur convertion in europe.
i do nt think i will convert my licenses in europe, wait 2 years to fly a fokker 50 when i received job offers on falcon, lear,metroliner,twin otter and even cessna 150...not in europe of course!

jj flyer is a real pilot...not the guy paying thousand of dollars to check boxes for some jar tests but a pilot who knows how to fly a plane....believe me or not, the metroliner is a plane, a real plane...if you can fly a metro, you can fly anything!
guys with 250h and a jaa license have the bad reputation to be :"a gear operator"!!!
soon, companies will need pilots, real pilots!pilot with experience and flight hours!
finally, i would like to say that some pilots need a kick in the butt.90% of pilots will ever join an airline or even fly a plane bigger than a light twin. .

fly safe!(if you are a real pilot)

[Blindside]

ronchonner

you really are a tit.

regards

[Hob78]

Gee Rochonner, what IS your problem with European pilots? I can't beleive you have the audacity to label those with JAA licences as not real pilots. If you want to stay in the States, fine, do so. Nobodies forcing you to convert. Just stop f***ing moaning!!!

hob

[willbav8r]

ronchs,

perhaps we should all take a step back.

Anyone who is a pilot, wherever in the world, has made it with lots of work.

Things are different in Europe, and Asia, and USA, and Africa etc. Horses for courses maybe, but that should be another discussion, and one that can be found on PPRUNE on a previous thread (s).

Remember that this is the world wide web, and as such, you can make a lot of people unhappy with any sort of "I'm better than you" postings because I have 1500 hrs ATP etc etc.

I would think that in your position, especially given your situation and needs, that you might take a more healthy tone in your postings. A lot of us benefit from a great deal of help from our fellow PPRUNErs.

Perhaps you could too?

[JJflyer]

Oh well, here we go again...

Hours and types flown,the licence one holds or where it was issued. Does it really matter. I think not.

I have met pilots with 200 hours that had better judgement and piloting abilities than a fellow with, he claims, 25000 hours.
I've seen pilots that had an FAA ATP and a B727 typerating flying the plane as Captain when he should not have been given a command of a paddleboat. Later found out that he had been cropdusting in Texas for 20 years... Didn't do good for his instrument skills I can tell you that.

Man, I flew with this chap about 1 year ago in a B727 sim... He did just fine. Like he had been in that seat for ever. At the time he had around 280TT and no experience in large airplanes. Licence held JAR CPL.

Then my buddy... Well he had 375 hours TT got hired in the right seat of a DHC8 at age 23... Excellent pilot, one of the best I have ever seen. He has both a EU frozen ATPL and a US CPL. He did his initial training in US and later went through the hassle of obtaining the EU ticket in 6 months.

Oh boy We had this Flight Engineer on with us for a little while. Man what a loser. Does not know the airplane let alone understands anything about performance and altitude capability of the airplane in question... Licence held , an UK CAA FE B727.

So you see... You cannot really categorise people as there are capable and incapable pilots and " specialist " flying around regardless the background.

JJ

Me. I just try to keep the blue side up :)

[Tor]

One of the great thing about JAA is the required MCC-course (Crew Resourse Management course to roadrunner).

The bad thing is that you can't fail it.

[rock_the_tower]

Dear friends

The wonderful thing about this website and its forums is the fact that we can share our thoughts, experiences and dreams about flying.
Mr. Ronchonner obviously has found a clever way to provoke quite low levelled discussions and I must admit at the beginning I also stepped in the "Ronchi"-trap. However, since we know about his unprofessional behavior in this and other forums and that we cannot stop it, let us try to focus on more fruitful topics with our real fellow wannabes and pilots.
Just ignore his embryonic behavior and don't answer his statements.

Live long and prosper, my fellow aviators !

Cheers

rtt

[ronchonner]

well, after more than 20 replies, i m accused to be immature :-0.
during this time, your government is sucking your money with their trainings at 80'000 bucks.
Come back to me to discuss when your will receive your first stamp from your unemployment office.
wake up,pilots!we need to fight together and stop to agree each time than our legislators decide to suck our EU dollars.

[gimpboy]

Well said rock_the_tower.

ronchonner - you are the weakest link.... goodbye (British joke!)

[Tor]

Hi ronchonner

I really don't think there is a reason to fight JAA. The rules are pretty good in my opinion they just need to be worked in and maybe adjusted a bit.

The schools have always required that you paid for your certificates even in the Yoo Ess - nothing new. True, it has becommen more expensive but the standard has also becommen higher I think. In the end it doesn't matter since now you have the chance to directly join an airline. Previously (and those of us who still have a national EU license), you have to build hours and most often pay for it. So when everything adds up it probably costs the same.

Another bonus is that it keeps all those FAA certified from taking our jobs http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon12.gif


[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 20 March 2001).]

[AMEX]

Despite "Ronchonner" defending himself of spending 1000's of $$ or ££, on a different post he was inquiring about getting his own 73 rating. ??? Strange but he said it wasn't comparable. Mr Super Pilot and his an astonishing experience (2000 hours that's unheard of :)) knows better than most except when it comes to know what he really really wants.
But I am grateful because he makes me laugh ;)

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[Flare_you_fool!]

I didn't want to perpetuate this thread any longer and subscribe to Ronchonner's rhetoric, but find myself asking the same question over and over again.
Do you guys not get the slightest p1ssed off with all the arbitary changes that the CAA/JAA authorities come up with on what seems like an ongoing basis?
Not flaming just curious, having once been daunted with the prospect of conversion I'm now lucky enough not to have to go through the hoops required.
Regards
FYF


------------------
Oh no,not again!

[foghorn]

flare_you_fool,

Yes, very angry. I think that the UK CAA are rather unfortunate that they have to implement something that they don't have too much control over. The decision to go into the JAA was a political one (taken many years ago), and during the formulation of the JAR's the UK CAA was overruled on many occasions by the CAA's from our regulation-addicted European cousins.

I get the impression that the CAA are interpreting the JAR's as leniently as they possibly can. Every now and then they are too lenient; they get slapped on the wrists by the JAA and suddenly have to tighten the rules up. Hence incidents like the recent about-face on conversion of foreign IR's.

There is an interesting interview in this month's Pilot magazine with the head of the JAA and a senior JAA FCL officer. Basically they make the point that even though for the UK the JAR's are increased regulation, for some of the JAA countries they represent lighter regulations than the corresponding pre-JAR system.

If that is the case I'm surprised that any aircraft left the ground on the continent pre-JAR. Compared to the old CAA system the JAR's are a nightmare.

[ronchonner]

yes, one day...no european will take off and the entire sky will be covered by foreign airlines.
I met a US captain flying the new emb 145.He get an interview by an european airline and authorisation by the Immigration to work and live in europe.Do you think that your CAA/JAA cares about you?
all these ridicule rules are for rich unqualified pilots.If there is a shortage of pilots in the futur, what the CAA is going to do? hire foreigners with experience OR make JAR rules easier for pilots? answer is: hire foreign pilots!!
whatever we do, we have it in the a$$!

[Captain Mainwaring]

Pull yourself together!
Frustration is terrible thing - go and have a 'Ham Shank' - you'll feel much better and
confirm that you are Pprunes' greatest W@nker!