Anti British Airways

[martinmax]

after browsing the various forums around here, why are all the members so anti british airways? what have they done to annoy you? are you ALL failed applicants when they were recruiting?
Its rather interesting ,that airline has shown a massive and somewhat remarkable beginning of a turnaround, likewise great profits at LH, also EI. Yet not a gig.... nary a peep?

why? :confused:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

We are not all anti-BA. I do not work for BA but am delighted that BA have announced their improved results. When push comes to shove it is in the interests of every British pilot that BA does well. There is enough business out there for us all and a strong BA will help the limited recovery since Sep 11 continue. If we can avoid a fresh Gulf War then the future will be bright.

[Earthmover]

Well I think it may be a mix of a bit of sour grapes, a bit of history from the 'Corporations' (when they had some very precious pilots who did consider themselves rather superior) and the usual envy of the biggest kid in the playground.

I have never worked for them, but I have worked with them - mostly on training matters and they are impressive. I think that they are a very, very serious and professional outfit - especially with regard to their training. I have been a guest at Cranebank and other BA facilities and have received nothing but courtesy - and have never been patronised. Modern BA pilots don't walk past us 'independents' with their noses in the air any more - indeed I was in the Med recently and a BA Captain wandered over, asked how we did, had a coffee and then grinned and said 'Race you back!' (No, we didn't!) Read some of the postings by BA pilots on these boards - NW1 for example, and others - and you'll see the calibre of individual they employ nowadays.

World's Favourite? Who knows - but they ain't a bunch of 'stuffed shirts' any more.

[A and C]

Having worked for BA I have yet to understand why they treat there engineerig staff with such contempt , without doubt it is the worst atmosphere that I have ever worked in and I would have got out sooner if I had known better at the time.

BA do have a number of realy stuck up priggs mostly in flight crew but per capita no more that other airlines , and i,m shure that the rest of the BA crews know who they are and hold them in utter contempt .

The only reason that I can think of for the managments appaling treatment of the engineering staff is to undermine there confidence and self worth in the hope that they wont leave.

[Nigel PAX]

As a mere SLF, I like BA, and it's kind of cute how the drivers now emerge from the flight deck to bid farewell to the SLFs as they unload themselves.

Other than on windy days (!), BA provide an excellent service, and they come across as very professional compared to most other airlines that I've flown with, whether European or North American. I had to fly Air Canada longhaul earlier this year, and couldn't believe how bad they were compared to BA or Virgin, and that's in their so-called Executive First (ie, faux Business) Class.

[Blacksheep]

I also once worked for Big Airways A and C, and can vouch for their peculiar attitude to engineering and other ground employees. All five of the organizations I've worked for treated, or continue to treat, their engineers pretty badly, but BA had nothing but utter contempt for anything in overalls. Even to the extent that aircrew would refuse to speak to you. Its a bit difficult fixing departure defects when they won't tell you what the problem is, and call Maintenance Control on the radio instead. I've never come across such uppity aircrew anywhere else apart from a single example in the RAF, and I suppose that one became a BOAC Nigel when he left.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[ETOPS]

This topic comes up regularly and I try to answer it in the same way each time.

We keep falling into the old trap of transferring our impression of one individual to the larger group. Please keep in mind that BA employs 3500 pilots ( and a few Flight Engineers) and that if 10% of them are toffee, nosed arrogant fools thats 3150 really decent, professional men and women who are a delight to know.

I used to work for an independent UK operator and when I joined BA I was absolutely amazed at the quality of training, the high degree of motivation and the friendliness of those who I flew with. Today, as a 777 Captain, I never check to see who will be rostered with me as it does not matter. All the co-pilots I fly with are a great bunch and almost always have a good time together.

I'm sorry if that small proportion of my colleagues still upsets the rest of the world but I would suggest all large operators suffer from the same sort of people - it's just we are bigger and more visible.......

[Tiger]

I saw this posting last night, and wanted to post but needed to think carefully first, so some maybe a copy of previous postings.
This is a cabin crew perspective.

I posted a similar question in SLF forum as the paxs were hammering BA for one reason or another, mainly the Cabin Crew and the odd ground staff. I pointed out that no other industry has such a forum and that every employer and company has the type of person they are aiming at. ie the bad ones. It was a case of don`t say "all" or "never" as in BA staff or use BA.

A number of SLF agreed with the posting and I think it enlighten their views, although they may not use BA they know that some of do care.

As an employer they are good. I`ve worked for British Rail (believe me they were a good employer) and a number of airlines one being British Midland some 11 years and another smaller airline. I also worked for a major and seen as a good Travel Agents. I don`t need to say now BM treated their staff, but after that period of time I could tell many a horrior story, as could a few others. I left BM because my promotion was hampered by a petty and poor management team at my base. Funny, I get another job promotion quick and I end up training SEP and Security in front of the CAA inspectors writting manuals etc. Moving on to BA I have no such problems with management.

I`m not saying BA is perfect but comparing what I have experience at a number of other places BA is a good employer. The training is good, and is hands on. Other airlines I`ve sat and written out pages of emergency PA`s and drills which had to be word perfect to pass,(and whether you really understand what you are writting about?) if when "that" day happens on board the a/c you`d have problems remembering half of the A4 pages you`d scribled. We are treated well. Keep your nose clean and they leave you alone. Then the pay. mmm. I`m new contract but taking all in all I still earn a not bad wage, its certainly more than anywhere else I`ve been.
What I do find odd, is how other employees of the airline have a pop at cabin crew, yes we have good T&C and pay isn`t too bad. I know that there are the old contracts out there and their pay is high, but taking a pop at all cabin crew on a basic of £9000 pa plus allowances and if you take LGW cc into account you are way off the mark. As for pilots I meet on a daily bases on starting I did wonder if they would arrive with white gloves and speak with plumb in their gob, how wrong I was. They are one of the most down to earth bunch ever. They don`t dislike cabin crew and always want us to join them on a nightstop, even bribing crews with I`ll buy the first round, come on guys you coming out to eat etc. My only complaint is if I hear "its only 10 minutes away!" we end up walking for half an hour and may or may not find this place.

BA has had cheap advertising shot at it in the past few months, some which I felt made the other airline look more childish and probably turn paxs away from them.

When BA recruits cabin crew the flood gates open at every airline in the UK, bmi haemorrhages cabin crew, with up to 80 cabin crew resigning one day. I believe Britannia lost half their LGW cabin crew (and senior crew to) in the last recruitment.
Think that says most things....but thats from the cabin crew point of view.

[mrsmaryhinge]

It is a shame that this forum is often anti-BA. My own feeling is that certain people have a grudge to bear, for whatever reason, against the airline, and vent their anger on Pprune. Whether they have been unsuccessful when applying for a position with the company, or have experienced a poor flight, they seem intent on bad mouthing BA at every opportunity.

Following the above reports from a Captain and member of cabin crew, I thought I'd add my tuppence worth. I'm a relatively junior FO with BA, who joined through the cadet scheme. Before I started flying on line, I too was a little apprehensive after hearing legendary stories of nightmare Captains and crews. Of the 150 Captain's on my fleet, I can name 2 with whom I'm not overly keen on flying. That leaves 148 ladies and gentlemen who are fabulous to work with. Professional, dedicated, and also just as important, a great laugh. As for the cabin crew, they are just the same - a great bunch of people.

I think (and hope) the days of toffee nosed, aloof, snobby crews are long gone. BA's recruitment is great in that they take people from such varied backgrounds, particularly via the cadet scheme. This in itself destroys any form of elitism. I'm just some normal bloke who went to a normal uni, and got lucky by getting employed by BA. I treat everyone with the same respect whether they sweep the streets or Captain a 747.

As a company, BA have their faults - That's inevitable with an organisation so huge. The internal politics for example, never ceases to amaze me. However, they generally treat staff very well. I worked for several blue chip companies before BA, and in my opinion I'm far better looked after now than I was elsewhere.

[Groundbased]

As a frequent passenger I concur with Nigel PAX. I like BA and I like to support them whenever I get the choice of carrier.

From my standpoint as a customer I find their service to be very good quality. On my commute between LHR and Madrid the cabin crew are quick and efficient and are extremely professional/courteous with those loud, aggressive passengers who believe it is their right to bring mountains of hand luggage into the cabin – especially on Friday nights. The flight deck crew seem happy to answer questions and give information, and back in February this year the Captain came into the lounge to explain to us about the weather problems at LHR and the consequent delays due to only the short runway being in use (23??). I’ve never experienced that on any other carrier.

In short they do everything I want them to do and they do it well, whether its Business or Economy. I’ve had colleagues who like to bash BA but when you ask them to substantiate their dislikes they only come up with stuff that affects all carriers, like delays, technical problems, baggage handling etc. Sure, there are always things that are going to go wrong but when you look at the big picture I thinks it’s pretty good.

I can only speak as an outsider, but they seem to be a company that has shown the ability to change in a turbulent market, with improving results to show for it. Not easy for any large organisation.

[OneWorld22]

We all know that deep down, every pilot would give their right testicle to fly for BA, I know I would have! Great set-up, brilliant training, great fleet and great routes AND great people. And as a pax, they're superb, I've used BA for their all inclusive holidays over the past few years, taking me to the carribean etc. They've always been top notch. It's great to use an airline like that to book your whole holiday, they've a huge variety of destinations and are very flexible.

I suppose the problem is they're just so bloody big, there's tossers in every walk of life and in a big company like BA you might just run into more of them. But when you put it into proportion it's a small percentage. the only criticism you could have of BA as a pax, would be something that's not their fault and that's Heathrow. Getting from T1 to T4 ain't no fun!

But it's a shame if the company don't treat their engineers right. A pilot or airline managerwhose been in the game 5 minutes knows how crucial engineering is to the sucess of the airline.

[Tiger]

OneWorld 22

I see you have used BA Holidays in the past. Not sure if you knew but BA staff get 20% discount on holidays- BA and Thomas Cook Signature Holidays the posh holidays not the package/charter jobs. They also do accomodation only deals, cheaper than Hotline-It`s costed as 20% off the hotel "extra night" stay. We also get the offers such as stay 4 nights get 1 free and 20% off the special offer brochure . Hotels always good and the res. staff helpful and have all the info such as building work in the hotel or near by area.

[Capt.Paul Skinback]

Dear OneBallworld,
I for one have no intention of donating any part of my anatomy to join the world's favourite.There are numerous jobs out there offering the same if not better flying jobs(+prospects!).

Referring to the original post,its not just PPRUNE,what about today's Daily Mail? 2stories about BA, 1 about Kylie being escorted by a grumpy CSD(nothing new there)down to cattle class having been 'mistaken' for an UNMIN,the other about an alleged serial rapist,who is a BA First Officer.Maybe the Editor failed the selection and has a gripe!!!!
P.s. I didn't nor have I ever applied ,for the record

[martinmax]

it is interesting to see how attitudes have changed, as i thought! for whatever reason the general opinion has improved of ba, hope it lasts for them.

[Shadowpurser]

I too have noticed this over the course of my time on this board and have considered asking this question.

You've got to look at it in proportion. BA is larger than any other UK airline and so flies more routes and employs more people. As a result there are more propblems that are highlighted as there are more chances of it happening, there are also more disgruntled people out there that may have been affected by these problems.

As has also been said being an older airline there are some "older employees" some of which are fantastic and I wish I could fly with every day - others which love nothing more than grumping, complaining, and generally yearning for the "good ole days" to return.

BA is a good employer and I for one can see that as most of my friends work out of the industry and certainly don't enjoy the lack of stress plus the salary and benefits I recieve.

I also have friends who work for Virgin too - they also really enjoy it but are in no way looked after the way we are in BA. Lots of our staff recently have jumped ship to go to Virgin, I wish them all well but I wonder when they get there if they find the grass is actually greener?

One more thing - I think BA could do with more of an inspiring leader (bit like Branson), someone who can rally the troops, someone who can address a forum of people and make them shiver when they speak about their enthsiasm for the company and how we are going to "take on the world". Someone who can make people "want" to improve the company instead of looking to see what the company can do for them. It's a tall order I know and looking for charisma amoungst management is like looking for a white rabbit in a snow storm, but I'm sure there has to be someone out there with some common sense, experiance in the aviation industry, and more PERSONALITY!!! than a Vauxhaul Vectra?

Here's to hoping......

[Yarba]

I've flown as SLF with many airlines to many different destinations over the last 20 years and I have to say that BA is the one which most improved its act during that time (though it is deteriorating a bit of late). The attitude of cabin staff has improved and is now really good (Air Chance are the worst I've encountered for truly unhelpful, snotty, arrogant staff). There are some airlines which offer really good levels of service in the cabin for we SLF, but one wonders what the level of competence of the cockpit personnel is like. That's one thing I never wonder about on BA because from everything I've heard their level of crew training and competence is right up there among world-class leaders. From postings it seems that one thing the company is lacking these days is inspirational leadership, but that's difficult in these days when bean counters rule the world.

[PAXboy]

My first flight was on a BOAC VC 10 in December 1965, LHR ~ JNB, so I was a natural supporter of BA, there were my first choice. I had used VS (both classes, as then was) and was very pleased by them. I admired Branson but BA was still my first choice.

Somewhere around 1991 (I think it was) the 'Dirty Tricks' against VS came out. After that, BA has always been bottom of my list.

The reason? BA management had a VERY good product. They had fine staff and maintenance of the highest order they had no need to play dirty tricks. The management showed themselves to be pathetic little boys. I felt that the only course of action was to withdraw my custom - miniscule though it is.

I have flown BA many times since then and have always enjoyed the service. Mostly it has been short/medium in Y and one or two mediums (Europe) in C. Always good. Always reliable. But I have not flown long haul BA (in any class) for eleven years.

I continue to admire the staff of BA and the very fine service they offer but when I heard Eddington say on radio this week, "We have a very good proposition and product", I knew that he has too much management speak.

So, I am sorry for BA staff and always enjoy being on your aeroplanes, you are great people - but your management are not ones that I wish to reward.

Could I 'forgive' them, after the passage of ten years? Since VS look after me so well - why should I? So, next Tuesday I am off to JNB and know that I shall enjoy the Upper Class experience again.

I have also 'converted' my family and there are four other people going out to the same wedding in South Africa. One going in PE (which BA also copied) and three more going in Upper.

I am not anti BA as such, just anti BA management.

[cabbott1]

I would like to commend British Airways crews for there professionalism. I work dispatch and get to meet lots of European Airline crews. Some crews are terrible but for me BA is top of my list of friendly and professional crews.

Cabin Crews?
Well I think they are just the nicest bunch of crew you could ever meet, they always offer me a cup of Coffee or Tea and they always have a laugh and smile. Of course there is always one Dragon CSD but that's 1 in 100 and to be honest I know when she gets off the flight her life is probably one sad joke. Apart from that I think its a pleasure dispatching your aircraft.

Cockpit?
Well nice bunch of people here as well, very professional and they always always say hello and make you feel welcome, sometimes they chat with you and sometimes you can see they are knackered so you leave them alone. BA pilots seem to respect dispatchers more than any other airline, they seem to understand the aviation jigsaw a little more than other airlines, that's nice!

I was dispatching a BA flight the other day and I couldn't help but smile. I always heard about the Nigel's of BA but though it was just a myth, well the other day the CSD shouts to the cockpit "Hey Nigel what is your second name" No answer but another cabin crew shouts " here is Trevor (F/O) coming ask him"

At least BA staff have a sense of humor.

Before I dispatched BA flights I thought BA was a crap airline (sorry) but its only now once I have seen a little more I realized they are simply one of the greatest out there.

Keep it up!

[maxy101]

Incidently, the alleged pilot rapist didn't work for BA, he worked for a franchise.

[5th Pod]

Can anyone tell me then, if BA happen to put on a face to impress
why can they do the same for internal staff who wish to progress.
I work for them on the ground and aggree with what the engeneering staff.
I' ve just completed the JAR licence conversion, and BA DONT WANT TO KNOW.
'Sorry sir but we think with your experience, too high for the cadeship and too low for direct entry, not enogh time on aircraft over 25 tones or military jet, try your luck elswhere.
I am sure that if given the chance i will ouperform some the two stripers who come accross as people that you would not feed to the sharks.
Many Regards

[Hand Solo]

With an attitude like that to FOs you could have a glittering career ahead as a CSD.

[yotter]

Hands up those who read A & C 's comments and felt a bit uneasy

'engineerig staff with such contempt , without doubt it is the worst atmosphere that I have ever worked in and I would have got out sooner if I had known better at the time.

BA do have a number of realy stuck up priggs mostly in flight crew but per capita no more that other airlines'

Disregarding the spelling, this just doesn't seem like the company I worked for - 30 years, man & boy. I can never remember an anti engineer culture from pilots - quite the reverse - our lives depended on good communication. Come on A & C, are you sure you're not just a bit prickly yourself.
Cheers, Y

[A and C]

I will put my hands up to the spelling but the rest of it is a true reflection of my 17 or so years in BA .

In general the flight crew treat the engineerig staff well and apart from one or two individuals I have no complants with the flight crew.

The cabin crew , well that was a different story some were very nice to deal with but the overwelming attitude was poor to say the least and one was left in no dout that we were considerd to be dirt , it was so refreshing to work the Dan-air aircraft as the whole atmosphere was one of cooperation and a wish to get on with the job in a plesant enviroment.

My real beef is with the managment who treated us with utter contempt , this I think was deliberate policy to undermine the individuals confidence and self worth in an attempt to keep the highly skilled engineering staff in there place in the hangars and to stop them seeking promotion outside the engineering system.

[PAXboy]

A&C, with regards to your comment: "My real beef is with the managment who treated us with utter contempt , this I think was deliberate policy to undermine the individuals confidence and self worth in an attempt to keep the highly skilled engineering staff in there place in the hangars and to stop them seeking promotion outside the engineering system."

This is just standard behaviour of management! I have never worked in BA but I have been working in the UK and other countries for 22 years, both employed and freelance. I have been in transport, financial, government, retail and many other sectors (in telecommunications) and what you have said could be applied to almost any of the 150 + companies and organisations that I have come across.

I have just finished a contract for an American Company, at their London office. One member of staff said, of their particular British manager, "She talks to you like an old fashioned headmistress."

One of the key things about UK management is that they do not wnat you to get out of your box. Whether you are an engineer that wants to be a pilot, or a shop assistant that wants to be managing director.

So, whilst I know how frustrating and demoralising this attitude is to experience - it is not BA alone.

[A and C]

PAXboy thanks for your interesting comments I must have been fortunate in the companys that I have worked for since leaving BA as I have not encountered this de-motivation of people on anything like the scale (pro rata ) that I saw it in BA.

But it is a very british attitude to put your staff down rather than try to get the best out of them , I can only think that the managemet fear for there own positions if highly motivated staff are encouraged .

[Jet II]

I must agree with A & C on this - I have worked for a few companies both inside the aviatrion industry and outside and can honestly say that the management structure at BA is the worst that I have ever come across.

The main problem seems to be that there are SO MANY of them - there are loads of managers trying to justify their position and empire build that I am constantly surprised anything gets done. This is not helped by a remuneration system that makes individual managers compete against each other for their pay rises and bonuses. If half the work that is put into shifting blame onto someone else were put into making the operation more efficient then BA could certainly sweep all before them.

My partner works for the government in the Civil Service - when we compare notes it seems that much of BA is still operating as a nationalised industry. There are many first class managers at BA who try to do a good job unfortunatley these are massively outnumbered by the hangers-on.

[5th Pod]

Hello HAND SOLO, nice to see that you have the same attitude, towards guys that work irregular hours and still manage to convert foreign licences with 1st time passes and maybe bring some qualities with them. Point taken.
All I ask is for an assesment opportunity pal.
( I completed the JAR IR IN 14 hrs including the flight test, ONE GO). Do I meet you CSD REQUIREMENTS.

[The mole]

mrsmaryhinge et al:

We all seem to be whingeing that a FEW captains at BA seem to sour the atmosphere at BA. I thoroughly agree in my experience that a few ( not necessarily BA) captains seem to think they own the world, and even when they are wrong they are right.

Why not name and shame them? This is a rumour network after all.

Tell us all who the to**ers are and if they are ppruners they will have the opportunity to put forward their own arguments. Having never done it myself, I am quite prepared to listen, digest and reply to anyone who is or has been the commander of an aircraft with several hundred passengers who has an opinion different to mine. Perhaps it is a personal matter of management technique as to why some people seem to be more popular than others (team players etc), but please bear in mind that some of us have management/team experience outside of aviation and don't see it all in black and white.

PS some of the NICEST people I have ever met have been airline captains, so I do know that one size does not fit all.....

[bijave]

All majors have several captains who think they taught birds to fly. That is also true about Air France and LH. However, it is in every pilot's interest to have BA keeping fit. Personally, seeing slave breeders as FR and EZ makes me feel interest in the job may slowly fade away. Not that money is bad there (well, hourly, it IS bad). Only, you don't have time in your life to enjoy it and you feel constantly tired. Plus, your job is at risk. No at the moment because low cost airlines are growing. But what about when they will not grow anymore, which will happen in the mid-run.

BA has set high social standards : pension, rosters, salary...and helps pilots in other airlines keeping somewhat a decent lifestyle. Take that standard away, and just witness how bad this profession will turn.

[nojacketsrequired]

Hand Solo,
I am a CSD and never have any problems with F/O'S or Captains
and find them professional,fun to work with and on the whole a
genuine and down to earth bunch.
So can you please quantify your statement which implies we
CSD's do not get on with F/O's. :confused:

Kind regards,

NJR.
A turkey is not for life,it's just for Chistmas!!:D

NJR, you should know by now that out of hand advertising on PPRuNe is not allowed. I have deleted the two URL's you placed here.

[MrBunker]

NJR,

Pretty sure I know you (are you the famed eurofleet photographer, per chance?) and as a BA FO (shouts of derision from across the land) I'd just like to say that I agree with you and that I (hope) get on with nearly everyone I fly with, be they Capts, CSDs, PSRs, maincrew, eng, despatcher etc etc. Our cabin crew carry a damned good reputation in general and rightly so. A tosser is a tosser whatever uniform they wear.

Hope you're keeping well, look forward to a nightstop with you soon.

Regards

[nojacketsrequired]

MrBunker ,
Many thanks for your kind reply and I do hope to fly with you soon
,mines a Large Bacardi and coke ice and lemon and to pprune pop
apologies are owed.

NJR.:D

[maninblack]

My experience of BA has been as a supplier over the past few years. In general, they treat suppliers pretty poorly in my experience and the concept of a customer/supplier partnership is as well received within their culture as licking nettles.

I have been quite successful with them and so cannot be accused of "sour grapes" but their procurement system seems based on a mixture of preconcieved ideas and "not invented here" Their other failing is a lack of understanding of the difference between price and cost.

[In trim]

There are a lot of very good people within BA, but also a lot of dead wood. Unfortunately, as is often the case, whenever there is a wave of cutbacks and voluntary redundancies it is often the good guys who go, leaving the dead wood to try and transform the company when in many respects they are part of the problem!

The reason so many people on the forum are anti-BA is that they have seen or experienced the way BA manage. Don't get me wrong, they are without doubt an extremely professional organisation and in general I admire their training, etc. However, they are totally inept when it comes to the micro-management of the business.

BA are too big an entity to really be able to focus on individual routes, markets, costings, etc. in the same way as younger and/or smaller outfits can do......whether this be franchise airlines with specific shorthaul markets, Low Cost carrier, etc. In many respects BA simply do not know what their costs are.

I have a lot of friends and former colleagues within BA, and I want to see a BA recovery for a) their sake and b) the sake of the industry in general.

That does not, however, prevent me from feeling very bitter towards them for the number of good companies and people they have shafted along the way, and I certainly hope they begin to respect some of the excellent talent they have, and really tackle some of the dead wood (both in terms of personnel and processes and practices) which are the root of their problem.

In trim.