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Capt.KAOS
6th Nov 2002, 11:02
I've been on this forum since July and noticed by reading messages that many pilots members behave like gods and treat non pilot members like some kind of lower species. Is this attitude common or only used by those who are active on the board?

I have 2 friends who are a pilot (747 and 737) and must say these people behave totally different to most I've seen on this board.

Or may be there's a reason for this boa(re)d behaviour that I'm unaware of, in that case I'm open for any suggestion.

As always,

Cheers

KAOS

Notso Fantastic
6th Nov 2002, 11:25
Well I suppose it could be implied I am one of those 'arrogant' ones. And it is needed! When I see people who have never flown an aeroplane in their lives, and know damn all about flying (why are they here?) start criticising pilots involved in incidents reported here with the sparsest of information, somebody needs to call these people to heel! It's all very well to visit, to read, but when uninformed comment from every Tom Dick or Harry is forthcoming, sometimes it is better to tell them to 'shut it!' in whatever way they will hear!

KoolKat
6th Nov 2002, 12:02
The difference between God and a pilot is that God does not think he is a pilot ...

Boom Boom!!

chuckT
6th Nov 2002, 12:17
KoolKat... The rumour is that God sometimes puts on an uniform and pretends to be a pilot..... :D

jonathang
6th Nov 2002, 12:48
I thought it was Air Traffic Controllers that are Gods :)

excrewingbod
6th Nov 2002, 12:49
Hmmmmm

NotSo.....

Same thing could be said about certain pilots I know.......

....make a 'song and dance' about the way crewing solve problems or the way rosters are produced, yet when given the offer to try it for themselves, they quietly decline the offer, or in the rare cases they do try, they make a complete monkey of it.

Strange thing is I know more pilots who claim to be 'experts' in subjects they know jacksh!t about, than non-flyers who claim to be experts in flying.......:eek:

Flying Lawyer
6th Nov 2002, 13:09
I'm only an amateur pilot not a professional, but I agree entirely with Notso's comments.
Prune is a wonderful source of information for anyone with an interest in aviation. There is so much to learn just by reading and following discussions between the professionals. And, if you ask a question, it is patiently answered within hours or even minutes by professionals with vast experience from all over the world. Best of all, this goldmine is free!

What never ceases to amaze me is the way some contributors join in discussions about specialised aviation topicsbetween highly trained professionals with the qualifications/skills to fly and command airliners across the world - and give their opinion when it is patently obvious they've never flown an aeroplane, know little or nothing about the industry, and their 'knowledge' such as it is comes from the tabloids, trashy TV documentaries or MS Sim flying.
Is it any wonder the professionals sometimes become exasperated with them, and occasionally express their irritation in blunt terms?
(I wish I had that luxury. I occasionally feel a similar frustration when I read ill-informed, inaccurate drivel in threads about the legal profession/system but, if I answered other than patiently and courteously, I'd simply play into their hands.)

Are pilots 'gods'?
No - but they've worked long and hard to achieve their position, and are the experts in their field. Even in these days of political correctness no-one can sensibly argue that Flight Crew aren't the pinnacle of the aviation pyramid. People do, of course, and some of those inside the industry seem to be the worst offenders. They seem to have a chip on their shoulders, and resent the higher status of Flight Crew.
If you believed what some Cabin Crew say, you'd think a CSD (or similar title) was as important as a Captain. If you accept that sort of reasoning, so is the aircraft-cleaner and the driver who brings the in-flight meals. How much training/what qualifications are required to be a Flight Attendant compared with a professional pilot?
My impression (which, as an outsider, may be wrong) is that part of the problem is that industry management encourages that idea for its own dubious reasons.

Of course professional pilots aren't 'gods', but they have a status which in my opinion is entirely justified, and they are entitled to some respect and deference from non-pilots who choose to join in aviation discussions on an aviation forum.

Tudor Owen


Capt. KAOS
Since posting, I've just read your two contributions to the 'Concorde BBC Incompetence' thread. It's a useful illustration of the point I was making. :rolleyes:

BlueEagle
6th Nov 2002, 13:19
Thank you Flying Lawyer.

Much appreciated.

:)

Kaptin M
6th Nov 2002, 13:23
"it's the person underneath that actually counts.
....67...68...69.

..ain't THAT the truth! Thanks ohjustagal.

And yes, der's a few Dogs in our midsts, two!! :)

WOOF!!

Notso Fantastic
6th Nov 2002, 14:10
I see it doesn't take a lot to get the self appointed 'comedians' out for a fun little bit of anonymous abuse and 30+ year old jokes......like nobody has heard them before!

chuckT
6th Nov 2002, 15:14
Well... I guess that would be me... nobody else seems to think that I am funny...

Otherwise... I am a profesional pilot, yet an unemployed specimen... And I agree to what Flying Lawyer and Notso has to say (except the comedian part... this IS jetblast, if it was another room I would not have put a joke in the thread....) :(

For my part, I read the treads, but only as long as it contains useful information... when the slanter and bashing starts, I'm usually off to the next topic.

Even thoug my profile states that I have only been a member since 2000, I have been around since 88. PPRUNE has grown since, for better or worse, but it is still an invaluable source of information, rumours and so on.

My "postingcount" is not as high as many of the "lowtimers" which basicly is due to the fact, that if I dont have anything to contribute - I dont post... Maybe I shouldnt have posted this time.

( before the spelling police attacks... I dont teach english at Oxford)

greatorex
6th Nov 2002, 15:28
In Hertford, Hereford and Hampshire, Humour Hardly Happens! ;) :D ;) :D

tony draper
6th Nov 2002, 15:32
Well miracle wise, they can all change wine into p!ss I hear. ;)

Alty Meter
6th Nov 2002, 17:30
Notso and FL both bang on the money.

For an 'outsider' you understand the industry very well FL. Management use the green eyed monster very effectively to divide and rule and the chip on the shoulder types lap it up. Things have changed a lot over the years since I started, mostly for the better. But there are some exceptions.

Anthony Carn
6th Nov 2002, 17:47
My colleagues say "Oh God!" a lot when it's my turn to fly the plane.

Does that count ?

Capt.KAOS
6th Nov 2002, 21:20
Flying Lawyer....Oh my God... a flying lawyer....that's even worse!

Plunging 7000 meters in a Concorde with a missing engine, dishes flying around, panicing pax and still you say nothing to worry? I bet the pilots didn't say to each other: "well John, seems we'll be arriving a bit later today, now where were we?"

Your message only emphasizes my point. Have a nice day, sir.

notsofantastic: you are exactly the type I was talking about. the arrogant pilot. I pity your cabin staff. Recently I've seen you patronizing other pilots as well, so I guess it's your nature.

I did not critisize any pilot, only expressed the view of the pax, which you may remember pay your salary. If you think I did, pls elaborate.

Some pilots do not give any information to the pax, some do. Recently I was flying from SIN to AMS and the captain gave the pax rather extensive information just after take off and before landing which I could see was very much appreciated.

So the pax are no cattle, just another human beings, like you we had a mother too. Now please get of your white horse.

Cheers

KAOS

Most attorneys practice law because it gives them a grand and glorious feeling. You give them a grand - and they feel glorious.
~Milton Berle~

Firestorm
6th Nov 2002, 21:41
As an Fo I am a demi-god. ;)

CoodaShooda
6th Nov 2002, 22:28
wrt Capt KAOS

"Forgive him PPRuNers for he knows not what he does" :rolleyes:

Training Risky
6th Nov 2002, 22:32
I'm a pilot. I'm also dyslexic, an atheist, and an insomniac.

I'm up so late, I can't sleep for worrying if there is really a dog.:confused:

piniped
6th Nov 2002, 22:33
No they are not...the guy flying the UAV's are now the top of the pile...and they sit thousands of miles from the aircraft!!


look at Yemen the other day.

virgin
7th Nov 2002, 01:48
Capt Chaos
Just wondered whether that was that your considered response to Flying Lawyer's points.
Or will you be replying in more detail when you can spare some of your valuable time?
Please don't feel under any obligation, or embarrassed. All are welcome on this site, even people who shoot their mouths off and then hide behind silly comments when their stupid assertions are pointed out.

G.Khan
7th Nov 2002, 03:47
Having spent ten years in Singapore working for SIA I can honestly say that Capt. Kaos sounds very much like a very gay cabin crew chief, (IFS) who has got himself a computer!:)

Who has control?
7th Nov 2002, 08:19
Yes.

Next question?

flapsforty
7th Nov 2002, 08:20
Only a fool rises to the same bait time and time again.
Ergo................... :D

KAOS, not sure if your profession is in commercial aviation or not.
Some of your comments show a marked lack of insight on that front. But you are welcome & welcomed here regardless.

In commercial aviation there is a self evident truth, the realising of which makes life run smoothly for all aboard. The captain is God to all intents and purposes. His word goes, unless a crew member deems that the captain is endagering the lives of others.

An aircraft needs an ultimate authority. A role filled remarkably well by the vast majority of captains. To some it comes naturally, others have to work hard at it.
It takes a certain kind of character and it also shapes the character once you are used to playing the part.
If that sometimes spills over on PPRuNe, how big a susprise is that huh? As often as not, such faux-pas are shown up by others and necks are wound in speedily. ;)

Flying Lawyer, your third paragraph is an oft repeated pain in the neck. Why oh why is there always someone who feels the need to do some cabin crew bashing when this subject comes up=
I should know better than trying to tackle you, but see my first line. :D

Are pilots at the pinnacle of the aviation industry? Yes.
Are they the only ones on an aircraft who have worked long and hard to achieve their position, and are they the only ones who are experts in their field?
Hell no!

Am I as important as the captain? Not when it comes to flying the aircraft and getting all of us there safely.
Yes when it comes to making sure our passengers get the kind of service that makes them choose our airline again next time they fly.

If you are really interested in the training and qualifications required to become a Chief Wagon Dragon, I suggest you do a search and read what Xenia, FlyBlue and I have written about that on similar threads in the past.

Running out of time here FL, work getting in the way of ppruning again. But what strikes me as a great blessing is that this discussion is almost non-existent in real life.
Fas respect the pilots, the pilots respect us and we all get on with the enjoyable and challenging job at hand.

Getting the passengers to their destination, safely, comfortably and happily while having a hell of a good time ourselves and making enough money for a beer at the end of the day!

Capt.KAOS
7th Nov 2002, 10:14
Virgin
The nature of your sarcastic reply implies that you more than ample proof my point, besides you seem to lack any sense of humor and relativisme too.

Kahn
No, I'm not gay. But if I was, would you consider this as inferior? You sound like a homophobic and looking at your nic and logo you might have a inferiority complex too, pls check the nearest shrink. BTW, you do have a very good insight of the SIN gay scene though........

Flaps
Finally some words of reason that I was looking for, really appreciate for taking the time to answer in depth, without the usual over-sensitiveness some pilots seem to have. No, it was not a flame bait, just my honest opinion. Regarding my prof. background, besides a very regular pax, I have nothing to do with the aviation business and I've never claimed that I had. For any further info pls check my personal profile.

Are the pilots the pinnacle of the aviation industry? Hmmmmm... what about the plane designers, engineers, aerodynamic specialists, etc? In their field they are the best and probably do know more about it. But surely they are not in the lime light like the pilots, who sometimes act like prima donnas as you can see in various responses above.

Pilots feeling like God can result into tragic disasters like Tenerife and several other comparable incidents. It's a team work with the captain as the ultimate authority.

Cheers

KAOS

Firestorm
7th Nov 2002, 10:15
And the cabin crew are domestic godesses in the cabin, and other sorts of godesses elsewhere........ (DUCKS for incoming).... ;)

Flying Lawyer
7th Nov 2002, 15:55
Flaps
OK, I admit my CC comments were partly bait - but I didn't expect you to go for it! ;) But there was a serious element. As you know, I've got no personal knowledge so it's all second-hand. My CC comments were based on:

Posts I've read on Prune (admittedly from a minority), of the "Who does the Captain think he is?" variety. As an outsider, my reaction is "He thinks he's the Captain, the commander of the aircraft."
And very frequent posts by ground staff/CC who seem to have chips on their shoulders about the status of Flight Crew, again of the "Who do they think they are?" variety. I have to admit I find that attitude baffling.
I fully understand the person in overall charge of the cabin has a very responsible job, but surely there's a big difference between the training/qualifications of an ordinary F/A and a professional pilot.
As Capt Chaos rightly says, it's teamwork - but most teams have a hierarchy.

Secondly, on conversations with good friends in the major British airlines who tell me there is a definite 'divide and rule' policy adopted by management, that they have to be very careful these days in their dealings with CC if a problem arises, and a feeling that CC are encouraged to report any perceived misdemeanours Flight Crew.
I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of what I've been told and the problem, if there is one, may be confined to some British carriers.

Notso Fantastic
7th Nov 2002, 17:46
Flying Lawyer- you , nail on head, hit! From the point of view of the front end, there has been a degradation of Captains' Authority over the whole of my career. We have seen slices of authority being passed onto others, but funnily enough, the responsibility rests completely, firmly, and squarely on the Captain's shoulders! We now have the situation in BA where cabin jump seats have been given to whoever the Chief Cabin Crew member decides without any reference to the Captain- startling, but it happens. Increasingly, the Captains authority is being chipped away, but come the time anything goes wrong (as has happened in the last few weeks to me), and suddenly 'you have control- all yours Boss!' I think it is BA that is particularly bad in this respect.

virgin
7th Nov 2002, 17:53
Virgin is no better.

Mac the Knife
7th Nov 2002, 17:55
Sometimes you can have too much democracy. Lenin explained it by the story of a group who buy a car. As he pointed out, everyone could have a say in what colour it should be, how many cylinders it should have, tonneau or cabriolet but when it was stuck on a railway-line and a train was coming a democratic vote on the course of action was unwise.

Training Risky
7th Nov 2002, 18:48
In the not-so-distant future, I foresee the Crew Chief being given a new title akin to a Virgin train manager: 'The Aircraft Business Manager'.
His role will probably expand to include responsibility for:

1. Choice of diversion in case of wx/unserviceabilty/rampaging passengers, he can decide what would make the pax happy and the airline profitable.

2. Directing the Captain to covertly break speed limits/FLs/holds to minimise gas 'wastage', to make the airline profitable.

3. Docking the flight crews' salary if late at destination/bumpy descent that causes split G&Ts/use of more fuel than allowed for by Budget Manager.

Any of these things happening now?:eek:

Pub User
7th Nov 2002, 21:12
TR

I think you've just summed up the job of an airline Captain. The aircraft does a lot of its own flying (compared to 30 yrs ago), so his attention can be on the wider aspects of the operation. I doubt if he would dock his own pay, but bonuses are sometimes paid for saving fuel.

Capt.KAOS
8th Nov 2002, 08:28
I think y'all missing my point gentlemen. I never doubted the authority of the captains/pilots and have a high respect for their job (not necessarily the person), it's just the degenerating tone many seem fit to use to other members on this esteemed board.

Authority is one thing and comes with the job, respect is another and need to be earned.

Have a nice day.

KAOS

flower
8th Nov 2002, 08:42
Capt KAOS,
I think you may simply be observing the Natural Arrogance that the vast majority of Airline Pilots have, in my profession it is exactly the same. It isn't that we think we are superior in anyway, its just that the type of individuals attracted to the Aviation industry, in particularly flying and controlling, tend to be those with this personality trait.

We have to have that self belief otherwise we would be unable to do the task we do everyday.

Apart from a couple of individuals (every airline and ATC unit has them ) I have always found the Flight Crews to be incredibly charming and pleasant people.

If we should come across as arrogant it is nothing personal it is simply the type of people we are.

GustyOrange
8th Nov 2002, 09:43
CK,

I think Flying lawyer and Notso have been pretty accurate in their postings.

A pilot is a professional person, employed to do a professional job.

As such I can understand pilots getting irritated when their knowledge of the profession, or actions or those of their colleagues are questioned by those who are not in a similar position.

This irritation is even more understandable given that we are posting on a bulletin board intended for professional pilots.

I work in the markets and it never ceases to amaze me how many armchair stock market experts there are out there.

The reality is that these armchair experts would be as much out of their depth joining an discussion that I was having with a colleauge regarding eg fixed income arbitrage, as non professional pilots would be jumping into a technical discussion between two pilots.

Using pprune I tend to post only on JB or some of the other boards where I feel that I can make a worthwhile contribution, or have seen some breaking news etc.

I think that this is only courtesy.

Regards

Gusty

Notso Fantastic
8th Nov 2002, 09:44
Flower- you are uttering absolute balderdash. We are the ones who spend over a career 15-25,000 hours in the air. We get fed up with ignoramuses who know nothing of operating conditions criticising pilots who may have had only an instant to make a decision, or pilots who have been following standard procedures when something goes wrong being criticised on this Board! It has happened recently and I have been one who stamped down very heavily on this sort of thing. Come, comment about aviation, exchange gossip & news, but don't step over the line! Then you will see 'arrogance' if that is what you want to call it.

Training Risky- have you been on a cruise? I've seen the 'Hotel Manager', ie the ship 'Cabin Service Director' or 'Chief Steward' considerably elevated these days. On one cruise, he enjoyed walking around in a wonderful white uniform with braid everywhere, looking just like Emilio Largo in 'Thunderball', a 'large figured gentleman' never seen without an attractive white uniformed minion at his elbow. A Swiss Admiral would have looked dull beside him! Introduced at functions after the Captain but before the #2, the staff Captain and other officers (who do all the work). You can see the way the airline industry is going. Who is going to be incharge on those A380s and bigger. I think eventually the role of the Captain will be an operational role only to be sent wherever company policy dictates. In overall charge of customer service and delivery, another person will occupy that role! Where the copilot/staff Captain come in that chain won't affect me.......I shall be enjoying back to back cruises I hope! Watching those poor ******s contrails flogging their way across the pond from a sun deck on a ship!

flower
8th Nov 2002, 10:03
Notsofantastic ,
read my post again you will see it comes out totally in favour of Pilots. This is an profession that needs people who make instant decisions to protect peoples lives, I do it every day my self looking after you guys.
I can be as arrogant as they come and you are obviously the same.
To be at the top to be the best you need natural arrogance, I quite agree with you armchair critics get my goat, they know little or nothing about our respective professions.
I was supporting you not criticising you , look again.

:)

nomdeplume
8th Nov 2002, 10:37
"Authority is one thing and comes with the job, respect is another and need to be earned."
Hmm. In my view Capt Chaos is confusing respect for someone personally with respect for his position. Someone who has achieved the position of airline pilot has earned respect by virtue of that achivement. Whether he has earned respect as a person is a different matter. In my own field there are a number of people whom I don't respect on a personal level, and don't even like, but it would childish if I didn't respect the position they've achieved.
As a very frequent passenger, I've noticed the change over the years. The cabin crew used to be called Air Hostesses which accurately described their role. People in charge of the cabin are now given ever more exalted titles.
Let's be sensible. Unless the aircraft is going to ditch or we have to evacuate down the slides - neither of which has happened to me in millions of miles as a passenger - the cabin crew are waiters and waitresses.
Flight Crew don't help. We used to get announcements from the cockpit before we taxiied out. Now it's frequently done by the cabin chief. Years ago, pilots would mention if we were flying over some interesting site. That rarely happens now.
On a recent flight from LHR - LAX, the first communication from the cockpit was as we flew over Las Vegas. The F/O pointed out the Hoover Dam.
We'd flown across America on a gin clear day. There had been numerous sights worth pointing out which I'd seen because I'm familiar with the States from the air.
I'm not suggesting the pilots should give a running commentary like tour guides but, in my experience, passengers actually like hearing from the cockpit and have far more interest in what they have to say than listening to the 'Director of Inflight Services' or whatever it is they're called this week.

Capt.KAOS
8th Nov 2002, 11:36
ndp:
no I did not confused it, if you would read my post more carefully you would see that I did wrote: "have a high respect for their job (not necessarily the person)".

People who are begging for respect I my view do not deserve it and are a bit pathetic. For instance I might respect nosofantastic for achieving his position, but not as a person . Achieving his position does not necessarily means you can degenerate other people. This superiority feeling is totally misplaced because there are many professions, sciences in the world in which I'm sure he's total illiterate.

For the rest I completely agree with you, few captains, F/O's currently realise that they're a part of the sales package and can do a helluva marketing job for the Ailrine Company. Although I've sensed already that many are not satisfied with the airline management hence their detached approach.

One would think that with these modern planes where almost everything is computerized (up to auto landings) there should be a little more time for pax attention.

I mentioned the SIA captain before, there's another example; once I was flying from IAH to DFW. Shortly after take off the captain came on the intercom with this Texan accent: "Howdee Folks, welcome aboard this beautiful aircraft on this wonderful day. I'm Pete yer Captain and I'm happy to have you with me. It'll be a smooooth flight to DFW. Now sit back and relax and enjoy the flight. In the meantime, if ya don't mind I'll be back from time to time to point you out some interesting sites of our wonderful State. Have a nice day y'all!" Pax was laughing and cheering and everybody was happy. Must say this happened 15 years ago.......

Cheers y'all

KAOS

KAOS, er wordt hier niemand voor lul uitgemaakt! Speel de bal, niet de speler alsjeblieft. Dit soort aanvallen zijn uit den boze & PPRuNe wenst niet tot dat niveau af te dalen.
Prettig weekend, neem een pilsje voor me. :)
f40

flaps, aanvaard mijn nederige excuses, liet me gaan in de hitte van de strijd, zal niet meer voorkomen. mijn dank voor de consideratie, de Amstel smaakte uitstekend ;)

Notso Fantastic
8th Nov 2002, 12:59
ndp- the lack of cabin announcements about pretty sights is unfortunately intentional. With it being all wide body, you can't really say anymore 'if you look out the .........'. Of a row of 10 seats across, probably only 2 will be able to see what you are pointing out- the middle 4 seats won't see a thing. It's frustrating to want to see the Hoover Dam, but it's possible that cabin service may be taking place, and having hordes of people climbing around to see sights incurs the wrath of the Cabin Crew, and in BA you don't wanna do dat! It's unfortunate, but in 737 type cabins you can point out things, and I used to to everybodies complete boredom, but not in widebodies!

As for the respect thing. The last thing I will contribute is that one person is responsible for that flight, one person carries the ultimate can. If you have that responsibility, you must also have that authority. I believe Captains should be able to convene Courts Martial and executions inflight as well, but that is another story!.............(tongue in cheek)

Training Risky
8th Nov 2002, 14:38
My point entirely. Soon enough, the captain will cease to be the 'Captain' and his job will be (along with the F/O) to OPERATE the aircraft in accordance with instructions from the 'Aircraft Manager' with his Business Management Degree.
This new breed will have the last word on ALL decisions taken on the ground and in the air. IE, should the ac should divert because of a drunken pax? What course of action is going to be least likely to annoy the rest of the passengers and increase profits! As a pilot I find this alarming.

Biscuit Chucker:

"Obviously Cabin Crew must observe the proper 'chain of command' whilst on duty, however, a Pilots postition means little on the ground if they are complete w**kers!"

Does the captain's responsibility not encompass EVERY stage of the sortie/flight? From signing for the ac on the GROUND to the shutdown, walkround, and signing it back in?!
So how can the pilot's views and opinions mean little in that respect? Even if he is a W**ker?

Flip Flop Flyer
8th Nov 2002, 15:02
Let's look at this from a business perspective.

The purpose of avaition is to transport people and/or cargo safely, efficiently and comfortably from point a to b, The primary objective being safety. To ensure this airlines has a long line of staff, ending with the captain. He has the ultimate responsibility.

As luck would have it the vast majority of flights, as seen from a passenger point-of-view, are uneventful with regards to safety. Therefore, pilots conducting their flights according to the book "only" does what the public expects. To ensure repeat business, i.e. making the passengers feel so good they'll come back, you have to rely on other staff groups. First in line is ground handling staff, and we all how how a professional and intelligent check-in clerk can save a bad situtation, same way a [email protected] one can break it. But most important is the service recived once onboard, this is where the CC come in. No matter how witty the skipper, how smooth the flight, how perfect the landing, if the CC are having a really bad day, passengers will file that flight as p1sspoor and think long and hard about flying with that airline again.

In other words, we are not here to fly aeroplanes, we are here to transport people or cargo.

So there you have it, the public will either the the captain as a) a glorified busdriver or b) a demi-god. There are, in my experience, more people in the a) group. Airline management, [email protected] as we sometimes are, to a large extent sees customer service as a primary objective. Simply because management EXPECTS every single pilot to carry out his flying duties to the letter. Providing service to a wide range of different passengers is not so easily defined, and since it's the service level that make people come back a lot of emphasis is placed in that area. Up to the point where the Chief Trolly Dolly gets fancy titles and expanded duties.

I do not agree with this, but then again my only job is to work on the safety side of the business.

As for the job of Captain being the pinnacle of aviation, I do not fully agree. Yes for flight crews it certainly is, but in my opinion there are more demanding jobs in aviation. They do not all carry the ultimate "life or death" decisions, far from it, but luckily Captains very rarely finds themselves in those situations.

Do I have respect for the Captain? Oh yes, very much so. I couldn't, and wouldn't, do the job. But I have respect for the position, not necessarily the person under the 4 stripes. That is not important however, we need to work together in a professional manner, we don't need to be friends.

We have all come across utter [email protected] in aviation, and a few of them are bound to be pilots. It's just easier to go unnoticed by the vast majority as an engineer, than it is as a captain.

RW-1
8th Nov 2002, 17:04
It is kinda sad if that perception is out there.

Other than the ones FL speak about who get into the specialized discussions and then have to open wide to remove foot, I see non-pilots here as converts.

They want to fly, see what it is that has bitten each and every one of us. to ecperience what only men like gann could place into the written word, etc.

Sure, you get some who you wish would leave, but for the rest, I find looking at them like that is easiest, and I try to relate it to them the best I can.

Gods? Nope. Pros? Yep. Hey, even a private had to earn the privvy to be up there.

For naysayers, just show me that godlike invulnerability as you enter that level 5 thundercell in .... whatever. :)

saudipc-9
8th Nov 2002, 19:01
Us Vs Them!!
This debate has been going on for years and it is not limited to airlines. I saw it in the military where ground crew/mechanics thought pilots looked down their noses at them. The result was they painted us all with the same brush. However, on more than one occasion when I started chatting with one of the groundies they would say "Gosh I heard all you pilots were stuck up d1ckheads but your not like that at all"
Surprizing what a bit of communication would do to change a person's perspective.
The real shame is, that the bridge's built by many people can so easily be burnt by one. One pilot has a closed mind and the next thing you know, we all have closed minds.
Why don't we give each other a break and realize that we are both on the same team but playing a different position.
It's all about communication and I for one will always try to build a bridge. It's up to you if you want to cross it:)

virgin
9th Nov 2002, 00:15
Capt Chaos

You claim pilots use a "degenerating tone" when replying to other Pruners and, in another post, say there's no need for pilots to "degenerate" other people.
Perhaps the words for which you were looking are "denigrating" and "denigrate"?
I know a few pilots who are degenerates, but the words have rather different meanings.
If English isn't your first language, please accept my help in the friendly spirit it's offered. It's always a pleasure to help others, pilots or not. ;)

Le Pen
9th Nov 2002, 08:40
D'uh.... no!

Capt.KAOS
9th Nov 2002, 11:39
Virgin, you're absolutely right, the correct word is denigrating...I apologize for the abuse of the English language which indeed is not my first language... well, there ya go, you proved pilots ARE infallible. Guess I'm not only a stupid pax but also dyslexic..... ;)

Thanks & regards

KAOS

locky
9th Nov 2002, 13:46
Ok.. at risk of damaging my Canadian polite girl status......

Are pilots gods??? * let me finish laughing first *
In 2 words.......



*#[email protected] NO! :D :p
You guess the first ;)

Vox
10th Nov 2002, 09:35
Just to put the flip side.

In the outfit I work for when you are down route on a layover you’re still there at the behest of the company and being paid allowances. You are equally recognisable as aircrew. You are therefore still on duty (even if it’s a day off) and an ambassador for the company, it also includes when you’re out of your tree in the bar.

The Captain is still in charge of his/her crew on a layover and has full authority/responsibility for the welfare of his team. He will be called to account by the bosses back home when questions are asked.

Things I have witnessed include a new hire 19 yr old girl go back for coffee in AUH with someone she met at a party. I seem to remember the hysteria when she came running back with tales of having to fight him off and the inability to realise the fact that she put herself in an extremely dangerous situation. I remember the senior girl who disappeared for three days in the same place with a chap she had met on a previous trip without telling anyone. The company brought the flight forward a day and we were one crewmember short. The same place again… again young stupid girls who insist on going downtown shopping dressed as they would in London/Manchester/Birmingham and getting tearful when some of the locals took umbrage and spat on them. They then wailed about how it’s their “right” to dress how ever they want and the local custom be dammed. Thank god we weren’t in Saudi.
Not forgetting stewards who get arrested by the local police, because they are still 200 years behind the west in their outlook on life.

So yes responsibility does not end with the signing of the tech log. We have to sort out the mess when things go wrong, like pay the medical bills or go to the local police station to bail the unfortunate crewmember at 03:00, or pacify the hotel manager when a room gets trashed or the fire extinguishers get let off during a drunken room party or try to get your missing crew member back with the rest of the team. The list is endless.

So yes…it’s always been first name terms for all crew interaction on and off the A/C. Yes of course we all have a room party and do stupid things with each other, hence the rule “no cameras” and yes we do go with the flow, but when we party, we do it out of public view and we do it intelligently and we look out for each other. There is a line that hopefully is not crossed and if it is, we deal with it in-house and the bosses back home don’t get to hear about it. We work hard we play hard, but sometimes we have to play Captain even when “off duty”

BarryMonday
10th Nov 2002, 10:20
Yes, I'll support that one Vox , when things start going wrong there is only one 'phone that rings!:)

flapsforty
10th Nov 2002, 11:02
Barry, that's a load of cr*p and you know it. :D

Or are you telling me that all the trips to hospital emergency rooms with crew members in third world places, pretending to be a qualified nurse so I could get into the surgery to try and make sure the crew member involved was treated with sterile materials, all the medicines fetched in endless cab-rides from dim farmacies, all the bed side wakes with sick colleagues (CC and Pilots!), all the endless phonecalls to base about sorting out the next flight with one crew member less, are figments of my bl**dy imagination?

It wasn't me sorting all that stuff, it was the captain and I'm just hallucinating?
Yeah right, my contributions when the sh!t hits the fan on a stopover are figments of my own imagination.

Nurse, I think I'm over the worst, please come and fasten the straps now..................
:rolleyes:

Vox
10th Nov 2002, 12:03
Flaps, that is not crap. The captain is responsible and will be held to account.

As I said we’re a team. If I see that the chief wagon dragon has things under control, then I will let her do her thing. I don’t have to tell you about using available resources. If it’s not happening, then I’m going to step in and guide things in the direction I want them to go. Whether CC like it or not, that is the duty/responsibility of the captain.

Your company ops manual no doubt will be similar to mine. I’m sure it has a very long list of the captains’ duties/responsibilities as well as those duties/responsibilities for other crewmembers.

Ours states among other things when describing the captains’ responsibilities; “Act as senior official of the company when away from base and assume as necessary such responsibilities as might be reasonably be expected of such an official” It goes on, “use his best endeavours to maintain a high standard of discipline, behaviour and appearance of his crew while on duty and when away from base” It continues “this responsibility gives the commander complete authority to take over-riding and final decisions regarding any aspect of the operation which in his opinion, is necessary to conform to accepted standards” It also says “he is responsible for the safe and efficient operation of the aircraft and for the performance by the crew of their individual duties” When describing the boss CC role it states “ under the authority and responsibility of the commander , the senior CC will”…..blah blah blah.

The bottom line is that the buck stops at the left hand seat. Period. The captain is responsible to both the company he/she works for and to the state that issued his/her license.

Most crews are mature enough to not need intervention from the captain, but sometimes you have to.

flapsforty
10th Nov 2002, 12:31
Vox, you're teaching your granny to suck eggs.
See my post on page 2 where I state exactly that which you feel the need to re-iterate here.

What gets me mighty fed up is the way a few people here time and time again decide to ignore the role played by the cabin crew.
Yes your the Boss and never do I quarrel with that.
Yes you have more training, more technical skills and and a commensurate salary.
Which you deserve exactly because the buck stops with you!

But none of the tunnel visioned ego tripping here on this thread will convince me that what I do every day at work somehow doesn't happen just because some people prefer to ignore it or are unable to acknowledge it for fear of diminshing their own importance.
Have a splendid day. :)

Vox
10th Nov 2002, 13:01
Flaps I was responding to Biscuit Chucker re the off duty role of the captain.

I gave the flip side of the argument. BarryMonday agreed with me.

You said "Barry, that's a load of cr*p and you know it" I took that to mean my post was crap since he/she was agreeing with me. Everything I posted was personal first hand experience of life down route.

I would be the first to acknowledge the professionalism of the majority of all CC. I would be the first to say CC are equally as important as the flight crew with far more responsibility that most outsiders credit them with having. Lets face if you don’t have the minimum CC required, the aircraft is not going anywhere. The recurrent training and testing you guy/girls go through would astound the passengers if they knew.

I stand by every word I wrote and I’m definitely not on an ego trip.

As for teaching granny to suck eggs, I would never try to teach you to suck anything :o and I can’t believe you’re a granny.:D

flapsforty
10th Nov 2002, 14:36
Vox, as long as you respect me in the morning... :D
Mate, the cr*p referred to Barry saying that he captain's phone is the only one that rings when trouble starts. Which we both know is BS. Nothing to do with your post.

When I read your first post, I actually thought it was a pretty fair and recognisable description of the realities of life down route.
Apart from the glaring absence of any mention of the role played by a good No1/CSD/Purser in these situations that is.
The fact that what I do day in day out at work, and with me thousands of colleagues all over the world, is bagatellised or totally ignored in threads like this, is enlighting as to the state of mind of some airline captains.
My missionary zeal to counter that false perception is totally futile, I know! But Don Quixote has his windmills and I can have my pig headed captains. ;)

Vox I suspect that in real life we would see very much eye to eye on the whole thing.
Agreeing in writing is just that bit harder.
Peace.

Vox
10th Nov 2002, 15:02
Flaps, of course I’ll respect you in the morning…if you’ll agree to dinner that evening.:D

Yep, I’ll agree with you in writing on this one. I never intended to imply that the captain achieved it all by his lonesome. Without a good boss in the cabin you’re just pi55ing into wind.:(

Peace…signed sealed and delivered.:)

EI-TURKEY
10th Nov 2002, 20:08
Are pliots Gods?

No, don't think so, but as with many other professions, there are no doubt those who think they are.

But if you wish to nominate anyone for Godlike status, SAR crews would get my vote, not just the drivers but the guys and gals who operate and swing out of the winch, and the superglue and sellotape merchants who keep them flying, as well as those with the big brass ones who decide they go out, often on nights when most of us are hiding under the blankets clutching our teddy bears, or whatever.

nomdeplume
10th Nov 2002, 21:23
I don't work for an airline so I've got no axe to grind. I'm just a regular airline customer and have been for more than 26 years, but I find this thread fascinating.
What is it about people like Biscuit Chucker and his ilk that they have such a chip?
Tech Crews? :rolleyes:
Why such silly resentment and pathetic jealousy of people who are cleverer and have achieved more?
Why shouldn't people who've achieved more be proud of the status they've achieved?
Don't CC feel they've got a higher status in the pecking order than the aircraft cleaners?
Having pride in one's achievement, and recognising some people in your industry/company are higher or lower down the ladder isn't snobbery.

I'm sure Biscuit Chucker could easily have been a top brain surgeon, top lawyer or rocket scientist if he'd wanted to :rolleyes: but the job he actually does isn't that much different from being a properly trained waiter in a quality restaurant (if you work for a major carrier) or someone working for a municipal bus company if he's with an 'Easyjet' type airline.
(I use Easy for family European trips because they're cheap if you book ahead. I accept you get what you pay for but I wouldn't use them if I thought for a second that the quality of their Flight Crew training was anything like the standard of their CC.)

BarryMonday
10th Nov 2002, 22:10
Hi Flaps,

Doesn't look as though I will be getting the chance to respect or disrespect you any morning, does it? And dinner would seem to be out of the question!;) :D

I do agree with the main points of Vox's post, the bit about the 'phone going was obviously mine and simply based on my experiences. I was called from my bed whilst on min rest to resolve an issue in a night club for a crew that were not even mine! They had dead-headed in that day without tech crew, full of the free stuff and then carried on the party until it all got out of hand, the police demanded the presence of 'captain'.

On another occasion, going into Bahrain, I had a quick word with the crew in the bus and whilst we were having a night-cap, (06:30ish!), about dress in the town, what was OK for the pool would not do in the Souk etc. In a deep sleep when the 'phone goes and I am required in the police station immediately! Two of the young CC ladies were looking very sheepish, they had been given bed sheets to cover themselves because underneath they had on sling-back sandles, very mini shorts and halter tops! I thought they looked great but obviously totally improper for the middle of Bahrain. We then had a long lecture and, as the captain, I was held to blame!

Been called to a few hospitals in my time too. Sorry, I have the highest regard for CC. Both on and off duty they make or break a trip and I in no way intended to belittle your efforts. I don't think you will find too many CC out there who would see me as some kind of ogre either! (Your hospital experiences sound an awful lot like Delhi, by the way!). Once again, sorry to have suggested that only captains get called to sort out problems as obviously that is simply not the case.

:o :o :)

flapsforty
11th Nov 2002, 10:01
Whoooaaaa....
Now that we have all agreed that Pilots are indeed deities, ably aided and abetted by the CC :D , surely there is no need for bandying about all kinds of baseless accusations nomedeplume?

I have had the pleasure of reading Biscuit Chucker's posts for a long while now, and not once have I seen him make a serious remark about our work and all it entails that wasn't astute and 100% spot on!.
As he stated here and on many other threads, he respects the postion of the Tech Crew/Cockpit/Pilots. Never seen a chip on his shoulder yet, the bloke comes through as a thorough professional. He also has that refreshing Aussie irreverence for pomposity and it's more laughable symptoms.

nomedeplume, I suggest you re-read carefully the posts made by Vox and Barry.
And learn something from them about the realities of crew-life (different from pond-life mind) in civil aviation.

Hierarchy, cooperation, mutual respect and acknowledging eachother's contributions.
That's what makes for a successful operation.
The sum of which will hopefully make you a happy pax in the end. :)

briteandbreezy
11th Nov 2002, 15:29
How the hell can pilots be God?

There is only one God......

...and she only was joking when she made men!!! :rolleyes: ;) :p

Tricky Woo
11th Nov 2002, 15:31
Pilots are too poor to be divine. And they don't wash behind their ears.

TW

Jetlegs
11th Nov 2002, 17:42
Kowtow to the Golden Stripe, how hard is that? ;)

redsnail
11th Nov 2002, 21:35
Nomdeplume,
I have worked with Biscuit Chucker and he's a very professional FA. He was great with the pax and bloody great with the crew. In no way did he treat us disrespectfully or with arrogant disdain.

Training Risky
11th Nov 2002, 21:51
Are you sure God is a woman?

Who gets the periods, pregnancy and piles, varicose veins, hot flushes, mood swings, menopause, and has to wear a bra every day of her life?

If God is a woman she must be a masochist!
:eek:

tony draper
11th Nov 2002, 22:00
Right on Britey, the Deity or Deities where always female until we imported that mickey mouse, middle eastern religion, thats ok, for goat herders,but it wasn't meant for us.
Bring back the old religion I say.
Start of the industrial revolution building those big wicker men it was.
The first geodesic constuctions was yer wicker man. ;)

the wizard of auz
12th Nov 2002, 04:03
I thought us pilots were godlike, and that was the reason we wernt allowed to have enough money to own worldy possesions.
I thought it was a bit like being one o them monk fellows that dont own anything.....................might have to have a word with the boss fella about the wages............oh.....hang on....I am the boss fella, strewth.....I hate aviation now.............you lot have just shattered all my beliefs and dreams. Bugga.

briteandbreezy
12th Nov 2002, 15:57
Training Risky

Errrrrrrmmm,......

and has to wear a bra every day of her life?

Are you sure about that? :p

Celtic Emerald
12th Nov 2002, 16:14
Well judging by some of the posts on PPRuNe by pilots including their constant moaning about pay & their demands for increases regardless how it affects their company or their fellow employees & their desire to grasp onto their money you'd sometimes think so but I have to admit any I've met when visiting the flight dect etc have been very humble & lovely!

Flying a plane is easier than driving a car
The planes flies itself

In both cases these pilots weren't flying light aircraft with the minimal of instruments but Boeing 737-200's.

Infact I was most impressed with the Ryanair skippers commentary on the way to Scotland (I'm logging on from the highlands :) ) he was excellent & came over as a lovely man, the only regret I had was I wasn't able to go upfront & meet him like in the days of old, but I didn't know quite what to make of the FA's PA. She was trying to locate a pax on board.
Would pax xxxxxx please turn on the light over his bed!
I think she mean't 'seat'. Every pax I could see were in fits of giggles & the poor girl fled into the galley in embarassment when she realised her faut pax! Could you imagine FR providing bed's on their 737's, for the money they charge I doubt it :D

Emerald