View Full Version : Meeting Virgin Blue Minimums

5th Nov 2002, 01:03
Hello all
I am posting this message to get some opinions about an issue I am faced with regarding my employment viability with Virgin Blue.
I have been trying to get a job at VB for 10 months now, through the regular pilot staffcv.com site, with absolutely no bites.
I recently made some headway when I ran into a friend who I haven’t seen for a long time who works for VB and has GOOD connections to the right people, I gave them a resume and cover letter, and they said they would get it into the right hands, at that point I thought I must at least be in with a chance at an interview, Having an ATPL in Aus, converted from a USA ATP through the usual regulatory requirements and 3000 hours of flight time including 2000 hours of actual experience in domestic and flag scheduled airline operations both from the left and right seat . I was dismayed to say the least when I was informed that they wouldn’t consider me because I don’t have the theory credits for the issuance of the Aussie ATPL.Even though i have the actual licence.
Whilst it is true that the theory and flight tests involved in getting an American ATP are a lot easier to successfully complete than the ATPL theory, and therefore should not be considered equal, It is also true that successfully completing US Part 121 airline Basic Indoc, Systems, and flight sim training on multiple occasions is also quite difficult and requires the same level of dedication and effort as studying for ATPL theory, Additionally I am of the opinion that the Decision making, communication and multi tasking skills learnt whilst negotiating the day to day duties and problems associated with flying the line are far greater qualities for an airline pilot to have, and also are a better demonstration of a pilots ability to successfully complete training and become a competent team player, than those demonstrated by completing ATPL theory exams.
I want to work for VB more than anything, I know that I am the kind of person that would fit in perfectly there, I have dedicated the last six years of my life to get to this point, I am still in my 20’s and I was born and raised in Southern QLD and wish to settle here. If anybody has got any opinions or advice on how I can get past this problem or if you have had a similar problem in the past, I would love to hear from you

5th Nov 2002, 01:21
Simple solution. Get off the net and get your nose in the books.

Airspeed Ambassador
5th Nov 2002, 01:23

If you have hit a brick wall because you don't have the aussie ATPL credits, why not go and get them. If it makes VB happy and you really want the job, it's a small price to pay.

Best of luck,


5th Nov 2002, 05:59
Wizbag, are you for real. I know people who have been trying since the day they announced they were coming to Australia, some here in the US, what's that, 2, 3 years!!!! with a lot more experience than you, get real, 10 months!!!! VB, according to John R have some 2000 pilots on the books via Pilot. staff, However still wish you luck.

5th Nov 2002, 07:34
Applied in Dec 1999. AUS ATPL Jet Command, not involved in'89, more than 2000hrs glas cockpit, AUS citizen...so far no joy..but I don't give up!

5th Nov 2002, 08:46
Thanks for the replies, to alidad and airspeed ambassedor, thanks for the advice, I am already taking that option, including the Airlaw written I took for the conversion, I now have two under my belt, the problem is that it’s a time consuming process and also cash consuming, Im worried that I will miss the boat, so to speak, and the current hiring period will be over and done by the time I finish all the writtens, The fact that they don’t put the ATPL theory credit requirement on the pilot.staffcv site, or anywhere for that matter is also a tad upsetting especially for those who are working OS like I was at the time I decided I want to work for VB. The first thing you do when you decide you wanna work for a particular operator is find out if you meet their minimums, and when I read
And I quote “commercial pilot licence with ATPL theory credits OR ATPL. I was under the impression that I just had to get Aus, Instrument rating, first class medical and do a couple of airlaw written tests, go see CASA and id be in the running, . how can anybody, extract that extremely important piece of information about the theory credits, by looking at VB minimums, I was only lucky to find out because I had a friend in the company. Otherwise I wouldn’t have known the reason, which due to legality reasons is understandable.
Now I still most definitely have not given up on VB, im writing in this forum because I am confronted with an extremely frustrating situation and from reading here in the past, it would seem that it’s a great way to vent your frustration when it concerns the aviation industry
Now to Farrari, your post is from the heart mate, good to see. And I see your point. I understand that there are a lot of frustrated pilots out there who would love to work for VB and aren’t getting called. I don’t think that I deserve a job at VB more than the next person.I Do think though that when in a grey area like this it would be more prudent for an employer to consider a pilots past experience more relevant than their theory test experience, when it comes to evaluating ones ability to exceed the expectations placed apon them by their employers, and by not considering me or anyone else in my position for employment that is exactly what VB are doing.
The opinions I have presented above are mine alone and in no way meant to upset anybody

Dan Kelly
5th Nov 2002, 08:53
It's hard to read a post and pick up all the nuances there in, so if I've got it wrong, I appologise in advance.

You sound a bit like some of the folk I fly with, who keep telling me how much better things were done in their old airline. Who try to keep doing things the way they think best and resist accepting and adopting the SOPs to which I and most of my colleagues work.

The only answer when the 'new kid on the block'; find out what the employer wants, in this case Aussie ATP theory, and do it. Lamenting that you know you're what they want is pointless.

I happen to agree with you in some respects, an ATP is an ATP. BUT it's their plane set, just like QF won't consider me as I've not matriculated, nor will VB because in my mid 40's I'm considered too old.

5th Nov 2002, 09:46
I think we need to accept the fact that as a young, rapidly expanding airline their recruitment needs to target a wide range of experience levels. Therefore, we need to accept the fact that there will be people with more experience than us getting jobs and people with less experience than us getting jobs.

If it is true that they have 2000 applications in the pile then the chance of a phone call becomes more like winning the lottery!

5th Nov 2002, 22:24
This subject has been flogged to death but surely VB would accept a converted Aussie ATPL from a UK or JAA ATPL?

To snob one of those licences would have to pretty rich?

5th Nov 2002, 23:01

UK and JAR ATPL theory exams are certainly harder to pass than the Australian ATPL theory exams – but that’s not because the exams are of a higher standard.

As a nation, the UK seems to take particular pride in doing just about everything by the most difficult, most circuitous, and most expensive method possible - including ATPL theory exams. The overly bureaucratic administrative processes, exorbitant charges, lack of availability (both in terms of geography and timing) and generally xenophobic policies of the UK CAA make the UK ATPL theory exams quite a difficult, frustrating, time consuming, financially draining and generally demeaning process to go through – none of which contributes a brass-razzoo towards flight safety.

Even the UK CAA examination officers admit that their tests are silly. One UK CAA guy told me, “We know these exams are nothing to do with flying aeroplanes - but we want to make them hard so that only people who REALLY want to be pilots can get a licence.”

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

In reality the UK CAA is a political puppet with BALPA, the British pilots union, pulling the strings. The UK ATPL theory exams are nothing at all to do with flight safety, but are everything to do with protectionist employment policies.

So whilst it is true that it is harder and more expensive to get a UK or JAR ATPL, it is, in my view, most definitely NOT because they are of a higher standard.


Pass the exams – get a job.

Baron Captain ?
6th Nov 2002, 03:09
I wouldn't waste my time WIZBANG 123 as I know of a few pilots that are in there that like myself did the US FAA conversion... I have also heard of the crap that they won't take you unless you have passes in aussie subjects..Maybe it was there way of saying to some..SORRY but!!!!

Put it another way.......I got a bit worried when was told they might not take US converted pilots but I'm sure at the end of the day the way VB's interviewing goes, I'm sure they don't ask to bring ATPL credits along??? If they did they would do all the other BullS HIT that Qantas does! and they don't!!!!!Im sure VB want a good pilot and not a good acedemic..


6th Nov 2002, 22:38

You're not bitter about something are you???

To all the hard working deicated antipodean pilots who robbed a bank and made the effort the find work in the UK your post is nothing more than an insult.

It's better than passing yet another set of irrelevant ATPL exams and still remaining unemployed as you might downunder...

7th Nov 2002, 01:17

Bitter – yes. Bitter that the UK CAA’s pilot licensing process is used to implement policies that are unrelated to flight safety. It is my belief that a pilot licensing process should be for the sole purpose of enhancing flight safety by ensuring that those entering the industry possess at least a certain a minimum level of knowledge, skill and experience. It is also my belief that there should be a truly global pilot license that would allow a professional pilot to fly an aircraft in commercial service irrespective of which ICAO member state the aircraft is registered in, and that immigration and international mobility of labour issues should be the domain of immigration departments – not aviation safety regulators.

An insult to expatriate Australian pilots? Hardly! Quite the opposite, I suggest.

BTW – who are you calling “antipodeans”? “Antipodes” is a relative term, not an absolute one. From the perspective of an ozmate it is the poms that are the “antipodeans”. :)

7th Nov 2002, 02:08
G'day Baron,

I'm afraid you are wrong re: Aus ATPL requirement,yes it is very true that MANY present Virgin pilots got it with their converted FAA ticket,but that was then! The goal posts have been well and truly moved,and you won't even get past Alison without 7 blue slips in your hand.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!:eek:

Baron Captain ?
7th Nov 2002, 05:52

I would like to think if you are correct that Allison would have changed the staffcv requirements to read PASSES IN AUSSIE SUBJECTS!!!....Especially if it makes her job easier in sifting through 1000000000000's of resumes....
It would seem logical rather than having shitloads of reumes on file that cannot be processed further!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

7th Nov 2002, 06:24
I don't disagree with you at all Baron,that would make perfect sense,I guess they havn't got round to it yet. But regardless of what the site says,no theory no job!

I thought this was old news :confused:

7th Nov 2002, 10:13

You thoughts on an international licence are quite correct and I think that was the original belief behind the JAA licence. A free flow of labour in a common market.

But do you see the frogs giving jobs to foreign (EU) pilots? They won't even speak English on the radio.

I wouldn't put the boot into the Brits too quickly given that they do hire a lot of foriegn pilots and to their credit.

9th Nov 2002, 13:57
Seems to be that VB can and will use an arbitory point to their advantage.I know of a couple of guys that were knocked back because they did the US thing,but were still operating or had operated in an airline in Aus,but around the same time guys who again had gone the US path had been accepted into the Blue.Seems like a screening method for who they dont want!

Ivor Biggin
10th Nov 2002, 08:00

11th Nov 2002, 02:47

This came about as the folks in charge at DJ cottoned on to the practice of shortcutting the system and heading off to the US for an express qualification,HOWEVER, those on the other end of the experience curve (eg extensive jet experience overseas)may be allowed to pass through the net with the conversion.But to all us LESSER aviators,7 passes,or NO GO.

bush mechanics
12th Nov 2002, 11:35
Sounds like a few people are afraid of a bit of hard work!!!
And you no the old saying ,Its who you know ,not what you know.
All the time you get on here you could be studying for atpl

Dale Harris
13th Nov 2002, 03:16
Why should VB or anyone else in Oz accept converted a UK/JAR ATPL, or any other for that matter Shagtastic? Does the UK/JAR system accept a converted Aussie one? As you so rightly point out, "Not without lotsa MONEY AND WORK" So, one set of rules for them, another for us?? I don't think so.

Amazon man
13th Nov 2002, 09:28
Dale Harris,

With all due respect don't go knocking the British system, as was said earlier there are few other countries arond Europe that employ as many Australian Pilots as here in the UK.

If there was a small survey comparing the number of Australian pilots working in the UK against the number of British pilots working in Australia, I suspect I know which would be the larger group by a big margin.

Most British pilots think the UK system is silly also but we are stuck with it and its just another hoop to jump through.

13th Nov 2002, 10:55
Amazon Man,

How can you determine someone's nationality over the radio?

Is it possible that you might be hastily pigeon-holing people based on their accents?

Although this method of geographical categorisation may be valid for people from small UK villages that have enjoyed the many benefits of 500 years of in-breeding, it is NOT a valid method to determine someone's nationality.

I suggest that the overwhelming majority of those you classify as Australian pilots are card carrying poms - it says so on the front of their British passport. The only difference is that they have had the advantage of a better up-bringing in Australia.

The reason that there are lots of Australian-trained pilots working in the UK (and in every other country in the world) is for the very simple reason that their skills are in demand. There is a shortage of skilled and experienced pilots in the UK (believe it or not) whilst there are a large number of highly skilled and highly experienced pilots in Australia.

I perceive very little demand for British pilots in Australia based simply on the supply and demand situation in the pilot employment market. A British pilot with 1,200 hours and average skills in the UK would expect to be flying a Boeing or an Airbus. In Australia they would be flying a 1974 Chieftain and trying very hard to get an interview for a Dash 8 co-pilot job. Why would they bother to emigrate?

"Most British pilots think the UK system is silly also but we are stuck with it..."

What a defeatist attitude. But I guess that comes with the territory. :rolleyes:

13th Nov 2002, 22:11
The UK CAA attitude to foreign licences is pathetic but for those of us who did the conversion we now have a high standard licence that enables one to actualy score a turboprop/jet job which counts the most.

It just makes the industry look pretty sad if yet another employer (VB etc) refuses to accept what is a good licence for no real apparent reason.

14th Nov 2002, 07:53

The UK CAA attitude to foreign licences is pathetic but for those of us who did the conversion we now have a high standard licence that enables one to actualy score a turboprop/jet job which counts the most.

I write:

The Virgin Blue attitude to foreign licences is pathetic but for those of us who did the conversion we now have a high standard licence that enables one to actualy score a turboprop/jet job which counts the most

It just makes the industry look pretty sad if yet another employer (VB etc) refuses to accept what is a good licence for no real apparent reason.

I write:

It just makes the industry look pretty sad if the regulator refuses to accept what is a good licence for no apparent reason.

"Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all"

14th Nov 2002, 09:41
Well I guess it is a matter of perceptions. VB requires you to do some work to get your licence. QANTAS requires that you pass a number of HSC subjects.

Many many VB pilots don't wither have a hsc or don't have the passes required to get into QF.

They can still drive the aeroplane successfully.

It is a filter I guess.

14th Nov 2002, 09:52
True DHD, I see it the same way. QF use the HSC and the physic tests to filter applicants and DJ are using the Aussie ATPL theory passes. It has nothing to do which licence is the best, it's just their filter process. It's their company and aircraft so their choice.

Sheep Guts
14th Nov 2002, 13:41
Well thats it for me too. If I want VB, I must go back to the books and get those subjects as well, even though....
I have 4000TT with an Aussie ATPL,USATP,NZATPL,and a Carribean Model ATP all ICAO WHAT EVER THAT MEANS!!!!:D

When I got my USATP I went and worked on it and others for quite some time accumulating 90% of my Multi Turbine time. Does that mean I did the dodgey? I hope not, Ive earnt way more cash on my US, and other Licences.

You are not alone mate. My dilema is do I do the UK ATP next or come back to do the Aussie and do the magnificent seven Subjects! Ah choices, choices....

Rubber Chicken
14th Nov 2002, 21:17
If you had done your commercial licence here is OZ and then got a job in the USA and converted your licence and then spent a few years flying over there then VB would accept your converted ATPL. What they are trying to do is stamp out those who took the easy road and did a US ATPL instead of going to hard yards and doing the Australian ATPL in the first place. I bet none of you were complaining when you did your US ATPL in under a week while the rest of us took a few months.
You can't complain now that companies in OZ won't look at your application now. Get off your ass and start studying.

15th Nov 2002, 04:52
I have Aussie CPL/IR passed 5 Atpl exams...Then went to UK, Passed all 14 Jar atpl exams( and spent $45000) now have frozen Jar UK Atpl and will be unfrezen on completion of skill test in Multi crew aircraft >5700 kg, However now returning to Oz..Don't tell me I have now to coplete the remainig two Assuie exams for the Aussie Atpl!!!!!!

15th Nov 2002, 21:43
The point I would like to make here is that it's the regulatory authority (CAA) in the UK that puts up the brick wall when it comes to licence recognition and NOT the airlines.

The British aviaition industry is user friendly and employs a lot of Aussies so why should a company in Australia snub ATPL's converted from foreign licences?

Golden Parrot
16th Nov 2002, 14:58
I personally know at least one VB pilot who is coming up for their command in the next month who never did the Australin ATPL subjects. They did the U.S. route.

I am not taking anything away from the person concerned. They fly very well and doing/not doing the subjects has nothing to do with their capability. I am sure they will pass their command with flying colours.

The person concerned originally got the job because they have the right connections.

The point is as with many/most airlines today, you must jump through the hoops, be lucky that your resume falls on the right desk or best of all have the connections.

Don't despair for the people who feel they are on the outside. We all fell this way at some time. Patience is a virtue, nothing happens overnight and be kind to the people you meet on the way up as you always meet them again on the way down.

16th Nov 2002, 15:55
I think you'll find doing the FAA theory exams a lot easier than either the UK, JAR, NZ or Aus ATPL theory exams. I think that is what VB are looking at. eg, Aussie sees loop hole in system. Instead of doing the Aus ATPL, goes to the US and does the FAA exams (flying?). They are then issued with an FAA ATPL. On the strength of that FAA ATPL they then hop back to Australia and do the conversion exam. A lot easier I believe.
A Brit with a JAR or UK ATPL I feel wouldn't be discriminated (in this way) by converting their lic to an Aus one.

I think what BIK 116.8 gets aggro about is the difference between what an Australian pilot has to go through to convert their ATPL versus what a foreign lic holder has to do to convert their lic to an Aus ATPL.
Having just converted my Aust ATPL to a JAR ATPL it isn't easy.

17th Nov 2002, 09:49
I can't remember - somebody please help me - what is the plural of minimum?

17th Nov 2002, 10:11
I fly know three Aussie captains in the UK (All had previously had commands in Aus - and I know that at least two of them were not involved in the '89 mess). All are currently flying the B737NG and none of them could get interviews for F/O positions at VB!!

Sheep Guts
18th Nov 2002, 02:22
Well I beleive for me the only choice is to do the subjects. The other option for me to do the UK ATPL.

Will cost me $58,350.00 .Whew:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Not for me, bring on the oz subjects.

I'm with stupid
19th Nov 2002, 14:07
Are they over 40 y/o Commando ?, that is apparently the latest barrier that has been erected, that and they are looking for pilots with plenty of jet command time ( which they obviously have ).

20th Nov 2002, 18:40
well i also have a converted oz ATPL from US and 3 weeks ago , successfully did the aptitude tests for Qantas coming back for the sim and interview soon. I was upfront and honest with Qantas and was told this will not affect the "competitiveness" of my application at all. So who knows!!However they did want to see my UK atpl theory passes. But again not a prerequisite.

PS guys are getting interviews with VB from the UK with converted OZ/USA ATPLs but with 2-3000 hours jet time. I have not heard tickidy boo! and my application has been in longer so again who knows!:confused:

21st Nov 2002, 13:34
Yeah over 40, maybe that's it!
Didn't know age made a difference to VB.

22nd Nov 2002, 02:35
The minimums for virgin blue are:

500 hours mulit preferred
Know an ex89 virgin pilot= essential

The experience level in some vb cockpits is quite amazing. FO's with less than 1000 hours (who's dad's knew the right people) and Captains with less than 1 year flying 737's. That's 1 years jet experience between them. At qf there is at least 15 years jet experience on any flightdeck. Come to your own conclusions.

22nd Nov 2002, 03:31
qfpaypacket person....you have alot of nerve having a go at VBs Nepotism habits, i mean come on do i have to point out QFs history in this regard, pull ya head in. Oh yeh, you telling me that QF doesnt have guys converting on 737s or 767s as left seat with no prior time on type??!!!! Its just a bloody aeroplane, the sky still appears blue and the ground, brown/green.
People face the facts, you want to work in a country you must play by their rules, get an ATPL. Hopefully one day they will become more realistic but for the now, heads down!!!!
Why countries just dont count a ground school and jet type endorsement as enough for a local ATPL i dont know, oh yes..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Richard Kranium
24th Nov 2002, 07:20
But if you were Raby's son you would be there.... as he is at 20 something as a wiz-banger ace-of-the-base Captain, as seen parading on the pages of some magazine as a dashing young hero in his bomber jacket etc....goggles, scarf, mostache and castor oil was unfortunately missing....but no such luck to a stack of ex AN 737 Captains with thousands of hours on type, just goes to show what a spiv airline they are........:confused:

24th Nov 2002, 13:44
Many Asian carriers such as Asiana, Korean and Cina Air have found low cockpit experience too high a price to pay and are employing experienced crew from established carriers. Maybe VB will come to the same conclusion.

The Enema Bandit
24th Nov 2002, 20:20
Not if Virgin's cutoff age is 38.

25th Nov 2002, 02:06
As someone said, just get your Oz subjects and shut up. Unfortunately the goal posts will always be moved as conditions within the industry changes
Re all those “experienced” former AN captains wanting instant commands it is just wishful thinking. I don’t want to raise that dreadful 80’s something subject again, but I am sure you will find AN had an even worse discrimination policy towards the families and friends of that 80 something group. QF / VB are entitled to employ anyone they choose so I think perhaps the situation is “Terminal” (no pun) as far as many of the so called experienced AN captains are concerned, so on your bikes, stop winging and go overseas is perhaps the only realistic option now available if you want to stay flying.
Hopefully most of the younger pilots at least will, in time, get employment here with VB or QF.

Richard Kranium
25th Nov 2002, 06:38
No they didn't "Snowballs" there were lots of people that were employed by Ansett that had close links with the AFAP folk...in fact some would not talk to tech crew etc...but no one cared and no one payed any notice, they were just missguided fools like I think you are ....no one is expecting that ex AN guys will get instant commands least of all the ex AN guys...thats your interpertation but you sound like a little upstart and have no respect for people with greater experience that you...you don't appreciate or have the ability to understand what this is all about....thats the trouble with our society, there is no respect for experience or elders in our society, as I said before VirginBluedotcomdotau is just a spiv airline that attracts people like you......:confused:

25th Nov 2002, 09:05
Hmmm!....seems to me that the spiv here might be ******** himself!!

25th Nov 2002, 09:39
R K, I have read a lot of the nonsence you have written over the last 12 months and ignored it.

This last post worried me, it seems to indicate that you need help so I offer this advice.

Give up the internet and find a good shrink before your hate and envy consumes you.

When you talk about experience it reminded me of the An Captain who trained me on the DC-9.
In his opinion you were only experienced when you attained 20,000 hrs as he had.
Most of his experience was on DC-4,s and DC-6.s flying between Adelaide and Perth.
Did he have 20,000hrs experience or 1,000 hrs 20 times over.
Think about it.

Bell Man
25th Nov 2002, 10:21
How do you get an interview at Virgin ? I've had my application in for quite a while now, and I hear nothing other than a reply from them when I update my details, indicating they have recieved my updated info. I have well in excess of there min requirements, and don't hear boo. And I do know people in VB, although I would never expect anyone to help me get an interview. Is it maybe worth a phone call to them, or are they just interviewing the people in the know ?
I guess I will just have to hurry up and wait, otherwise.


Richard Kranium
25th Nov 2002, 11:32
glastar...is that like fying a Jumbo between Syd and Lax for the rest of your life.............................................. :confused:

amos2...it seems that you and "snowballs" are in the same boat.........what a surprise to your reply.............:eek:

Kaptin M
25th Nov 2002, 11:45
Time you were in bed, Head - school again tomorrow!
Your childish, immature posts are not clever, nor funny, and give an indication of your young age, which in itself is not a problem - only your juvenile comments!

I could say "grow up". but God willing, you will do that anyway - so how about, "Shut up" :eek:

Richard Kranium
25th Nov 2002, 11:56
Kaptin "M"!!!!!.............................you know you should be the Richard Kranium, you have no clue to the reality of life....................and stop masquerading behind the Aussie flag...you are a disgrace to that symbol....................:mad:

26th Nov 2002, 10:06
Pressure getting to you, Dick?

26th Nov 2002, 11:58
bell man

There are three requirements to be considered for an interview at Virgin Blue:

1) Know someone who works for them and will recommend you.

2) Know someone who works for them and will recommend you.

3) Know someone who works for them and will recommend you.

OK, so thats just one but you get my point.

I guess you could apply the same analogy to any aviation company, from the tiny charter outfit in woop woop to a regional airline or Virgin Blue.

The guy who just started at your company 6 months ago and with a quarter of your experience could be the guy who gets you a look in at your dream job one year down the track!

So be nice to everyone you meet, you never know!:)

26th Nov 2002, 20:46
It's not much consolation but i'm a 9000 hr a320 training captain, 35 yrs old, and they didn't answer me either. go figure.

ps and i am australian born and bred, not involved in 89, single, available to work in any base etc. etc.
oh and i got my Caa/JAR licence when negative marking was in force. a feat in itself. anyway its all a crock of s+++. i'd love too come home but if VB would prefer to recruit kids thats their perogative.

26th Nov 2002, 21:32
It seems to me that the best advice is offered by Ibex. Always be good to the people you meet on the way up as they are the ones who can catch you on the way down .

26th Nov 2002, 22:02
oK guys I promise i am sober this time.
The joining rules seem to have changed in the last 15months re VB
Here are some tips

1. if you know someone get them to recomend you
there are rumours about a minimum of three recomendations yet I know someone who didnt know anyone and just got the nod.

2. i know its arrogant but you are being watched by ex and current workmates, given that VB now has ex Ansett, NJ,Qantas,Flightwest, Skywest, Rex, Kendell, Hazo's, ******, sunnies, Eastern, Southern, ASA, Airnorth plus most of the large charter companies. dont forget that there is more to VB than pilots, I know people who have got in by being recomended by ops, tele and office people. So when your name comes up hopefully someone will recognise you.

3. Try and speak to A.Y but do not hassel her as she is flat out

4. Go to the hammo on fri nights

5. Maybe even to to the overnight hotels in other states just to meet people,

6. If you are flying around the country try and fly VB and ask to see the cockpit after landing just to meet people

7. If you have time try and have lunch down at the cafe at the bottom of the VB building you never know who is eating lunch there.

8. As to the ATPL employment rules, thats life you can do nothing to change it get on with passing the subjects.

9. For you older guys dont lose hope VB seems to employ a lot of 40+ guys

10. for those of you with heaps of experiance i can only comment that nearly all of the ex Ansett guys are highly respected and several are now check and training, there is probably some quota system in place with experiance ect. Maybe the problem that you need to overcome with mamangent is that maybe they percieve that you wont be happy being an FO for a couple of years and you will leave on the first available contract. How you get around this one ???????????

11. I guess at the end of the day VB is a social airline and one that is firmly entrenched in the aviation community, its sort of like playing social tennis, you need to get out and meet people so as to broaden your horizons to get better matches. its up to you if you want to do it.

12. Find out about the endorsement process in melb. they might even have some inroads

13. if anyone wants more info you can email me at my tittle where the letters exceed EGT

26th Nov 2002, 23:15
...atta boy canon...good to see you back on the wagon! ;)

The Enema Bandit
28th Nov 2002, 03:28
Easy answer to question 10. Pay proper wages!

28th Nov 2002, 21:25
does anyone out there know of any one getting an interview at the moment?

28th Nov 2002, 21:33
I know at least 5 guys if had interviews within the last week, all got a yes.

eisle s
28th Nov 2002, 22:00
I know 3 guys, 2 got Yes, 1 got No.

28th Nov 2002, 23:01
bentandtwisted and eisle s

do you know the qualifications/flying times/experience of those guys that got the nod, and the one who didnt?

Might give us all some hope, or depression as the case may be :D


JetRacer :)

eisle s
28th Nov 2002, 23:55
they were GA piston drivers with hours between 1600-3000.
There is certainly a broad range of guys getting interviews.
Just hang in there.:(

29th Nov 2002, 04:43
"Go to pubs......Go to the Hammo Hotel".

Wow, what a top class act VB's recruitment process is.

Basically he who can suck the hardest gets the nod.

JR must be loving it. "Its good to be the king".


I'm with stupid
29th Nov 2002, 05:17
........so much for them needing jet experienced drivers ???

eisle s
30th Nov 2002, 04:01
stupid, who said they needed experienced jet drivers:confused:
If you read my post all the way through it says, a broad range of pilots are getting interviews. Jet pilots are still getting jobs.

30th Nov 2002, 04:31
Jet pilots are getting jobs and being told to expect commands inside of six months!

Virgin expansion will be at a phenomanal pace over the next few years. There is little risk of a third airline, more domestic share to be taken from QF, international expansion and a possible sweetner deal done by the governments of Aus & NZ to facilitate a QF/AirNZ tie up.

The last will be amusing for some, heartbreaking for others. John Anderson has alluded to certain protection to be again afforded to QF, in the form of a neccessary tie up at the expense of consumer interest, but in the national (QF) interest!

Will Corrigan be handed Freedom Air? Probably, as the expansion of Virgin Blue will be so great, I doubt their ability to cope.

I think Virgin Blue would be foolish not to take as many of the experienced jet pilots as it can, of course meeting their criteria, as a balance of experience critical as they double in size and then some!

Good luck with the EBA.

30th Nov 2002, 05:09
I think Virgin Blue would be foolish not to take as many of the experienced jet pilots as it can, of course meeting their criteria, as a balance of experience critical as they double in size and then some!

So here I am, come & get me! ;)

Ivan Urge
30th Nov 2002, 05:43
I would like to add to others who have posted that they are unable to get any joy from VB, that the recruitment must be a joke. I know of a few very experienced B737 and B767 captains, who were not involved in 89, who get nothing other than an automated response to their applications despite months/years of interest. In the meantime jet pilots (by that statement-not necessarily captains) are being told to expect commands in six months!!!. That doesn't even happen in north asia where commands are given out with frighteningly low experience. It is interesting to note that the last few direct entry captains hired were involved in 89. Guess which side. I wonder if Wooly-Pully knows nepotism is alive and well in his Blue baby.

Boeing Belly
30th Nov 2002, 06:14
Virgin are approaching Impulse Captains who HAVEN'T EVEN APPLIED offering them direct entry commands. All the while ignoring non-scab Ansett Captains and F/Os who HAVE applied. Figure that one out.:confused: :confused:

30th Nov 2002, 07:48
Well, BB,why am I not surprised!
Why are you!
Please tell!

30th Nov 2002, 16:35
Do you still need to print $25,000 or so and pay for your own rating? Is this repaid over 3 years? as I read somewhere..

30th Nov 2002, 22:25
"I would like to add to others who have posted that they are unable to get any joy from VB, that the recruitment must be a joke. I know of a few very experienced B737 and B767 captains, who were not involved in 89, who get nothing other than an automated response to their applications despite months/years of interest."

Qantas are also heavily recruiting and require experienced pilots along with a mix of not so experienced. They also take piston, turbine pilots and not all jet endorsed pilots.

Or did we all just forget about that?

eisle s
1st Dec 2002, 00:49
B.B why should VB feel compelled to hire all the Ansett pilots? If they hired all of these guys we would BECOME Ansett, and management dont want that. They want to have a culture of their own. As for approaching Impulse captains, well thats a new one.

Shagtastic, Yes you still need to be 737 endorsed for the job and No they do not repay you over 3 years. A retention bonus is paid every 2 years(25k) and you can make of that what you will but basically its just part of the salary.

1st Dec 2002, 02:06
Eisle s

Didn't see anywhere in BB's post where he stated VB should be compelled to hire ex-Ansett drivers.

Your posts have mellowed over the last year, I always thought you an 89er in your response to anything Ansett. Now I suspect other reasons.

VB will double and some, very quickly. There is an experience issue from all accounts, otherwise how would you explain the quick commands for some( jet experienced ) and slower progression ( piston ) for others. This will be accentuated by Virgin's continued expansion.

You don't have to worry, of the eligible exAN pilots, probably about 50 or so serious aspirants for Virgin ( two recently very politely declined interviews with VB as they had offers abroad ). Of these 50 most will go elsewhere before the opportunity arises, thereby preserving your culture!

Ivan Urge
1st Dec 2002, 03:17
Betedete, you miss the point. Granted QF is hiring but I am sure they are not telling candidates that they can expect a command in six months. I would bet money that they do not even discuss how long it takes to command.

I'll say it another way if you wish. Why is VB ignoring many experienced Boeing captains and at the same time acknowledging they have an experience issue by upgrading at a ferocious rate? The guys they are ignoring are not scabs nor are they 89 combatants. On the other hand if they were the latter a job is assured.

Coffee thanks!
1st Dec 2002, 23:42
shagtastic et al,

The agreement dated 2000 (available at www.osiris.gov.au and type in "virgin blue pilots") provided for a deferred professional retention supplement to be paid in June 2002, amounting to $25K for captains, pro rata for FO's.

This amount was to "recognise the need for ongoing training requirements associated with licence renewal".

So I suppose that it does not specifically repay the cost of the rating, but just by coincidence happens to be the amount bandied about as the cost of a type rating and has the same effect

Judging from the previous posts I presume that the new agreement retains something similar?

regards: bored pilot stuck in a desk job.

Richard Kranium
3rd Dec 2002, 12:55
Well "Mr Urge" its like this, if you want total loyaly and not be deposed...you hire and promote people who are totally out of their station, have a small band of like minded stalwarts around you for protection, as for the rest just promote them, and they will follow without question...the ex AN Capt's. would be able to see the wood for the trees, this would be a total threat to the the power structure...its all done by smoke and mirrors...:(

3rd Dec 2002, 23:48
.........and the latest is.

40 pilots selected last week to be interviewed over the next few months. If your not in this round, you better get another job while you wait.

4th Dec 2002, 00:54
I must admit I always smile when I hear the Virgin ads on the radio and they talk about keeping "the air fair".... in view of the fact that they appear to have discriminatory employment practices.

Sure, there's always going to be someone who gets a job somewhere because they happen to know the right people. But from the comments circulating about Virgin one would assume that's the only way you can get a job at Virgin.

Am I right? Is there anyone out there who has been employed by Virgin who doesn't have the obligatory three mates on the inside batting for them?

I sympathise for those of you who meet VB's minima (the plural of minimum) yet can't even get an interview. And I sympathise for those who have friends at Virgin but don't want to exploit that friendship or be a pain in the $%&* by hastling them to put in a good word for them.

Evidently the Australian tradition of 'mateship' over-rides the equally valuable Australian quality of giving everyone a fair go.

By the way, does Virgin employ any female pilots?

hvy 18 wheeler
4th Dec 2002, 01:57
Isn't it funny that you cry fould, that the system is working against you..
As you are probably aware a number of DJ's crew paid for their flying tuition, sat their ATPL subjects like good girls and boys and took off into G.A with no idea if they were going to be taken on to maybe fly , Hmmm lets see, a cessna 210 if they were lucky. They prodded thru this early existence, getting pissed on friday nights at some pocal pub where all the cool senior pilots hung out ( like the ones who flew cessna twins or maybe even a turbo prop) to find that eventually one day they too would find themselves in the left seat of a twin. Do you see a pattern here my friend......

Then a little company announces its intention to recruit and base pilots in Brisvegas and to everyones shock they will have 737;s and yes even more shocking, they will be recruiting from the bottom of the barrell also.

So all the hard years doing what everyone else did has paid off for all these people and they now find themselves flying either with DJ, QF, CX etc etc etc.

Funny that while you chose the path of big shiny aircraft that made shitloads of noise when they departed the airport you now fail to find yourself inside one................

Pardon the irony here friend but maybe you should have just done what every other pilot has done and stayed at home and got some local hours instead of running off to get all that experience you obviously didn't need in the end.....

Man i love my job:eek:

4th Dec 2002, 05:15
Thank you djembe, I too maintain that there is no such word as "minimums". "Finals" too is oft misused in this industry.

Good luck to all in their search for the "perfect" job.:D

Zone 5
6th Dec 2002, 06:25
Rapid expansion can be a real aviation risk factor, not particularly for DJ, but for any airline, as resources can get spread a bit thin. An airline undergoing such expansion must be very particular about training, constant review and development of procedures, and LISTENING TO CREWS CONCERNS at an early stage, as a good indicator of impending risks and hazards.

Is DJ doing this? Dunno, don't happen to work for them, so over to you....

Ditto for the comments about experience. On the face of it, the more experienced the better, but if an airline is not doing the above, even experience may not be able to trap the problems that sneak down the chain, or thru the (Reason) filters, whatever model you prefer.

I think I'd rather be flown around by guys with modest experience in a mature, supportive Flight Operations system that looks critically at itself all the time, than by experienced pilots struggling to get the job done because the management (sharp and blunt) think "you've got the endorsement, now go fly the aeroplane." Of course, to do the first usually means you have to do (and spend) a bit more than the minimum.

So, again, where does DJ fit? (Serious question) :confused:

Richard Kranium
6th Dec 2002, 12:45
Zone 5..how wonderfull!,...you came down in the last rain shower, its so nice, and I'm happy for you....:)

Zone 5
7th Dec 2002, 12:49
:D :D :D :D

Yeah, cool man, whatever you say...... ;)

I think the name (and the location) say it all...


8th Dec 2002, 01:38
Oh Zone boy, picking on the pseudonym and the so called location proves you have come down in the last rain shower, you are living in a dream world if you have nothing better to say than that..........:(

Zone 5
8th Dec 2002, 10:26
I was hoping to elicit some serious comment from someone working at DJ about how they feel the company has handled some pretty phenominal expansion, so your two posts sure aren't contributing much.... :p

It's a sad fact that on this forum sometimes the art of subtly is lost, so I'll spell it out:

Throughout this thread there has a been a lot of comment about how DJ "should" hire the guys with the most experience. Is that the only criteria that should be considered? I've flown (military, avmed and airlines) with some 15,000 hour guys who really only had 15 x 1000 hours, and some "young turks" with just a fraction of that who were as sharp as razors. To quote Kelly McGillis "it takes a lot more than just fancy flying." So what "should" DJ do? I think it's a bit rich to say they are making a mistake if they don't prioritise the criteria that such and such wants them to. I've flown with a few of the young guys they've hired (and promoted) and while their logbooks aren't fat, they're good . Providing they can focus on their job without distraction, and get the kind of assistance that any person new to an aircraft or flight deck position needs, no worries.

So that was my point. Unless someones experience is woefully inadequate, I'm more interested in how easy or difficult the system makes their job. Are they tired because of rostering, and always being asked to do more? Do some of the procedures need to be refined from the first issue? Does anyone listen when you've got a problem, or have an idea to make things work better? I've worked for a few airlines over the years, both seats, training, checking etc, none were ideal, even the one airline could vary a lot over a period of time. Generally the better ones did a bit of naval gazing, actually made changes along the way, and didn't talk about how great they were all the time. But even the well intentioned managers (flying and other) usually found it difficult to do the things they knew they should be doing when the needs of expansion took precedence. And that makes it tough for pilots of any experience to do their best job.

So once again, I'm genuinely curious. From guys who ACTUALLY WORK THERE is everything keeping up with the expansion? Is the job getting tougher? Howz it all going?

Not interested in controversy, just a friendly inquiry.

Oh, and you two have a nice day, y' hear?

:D :D :D

9th Dec 2002, 06:41
Zone5, I guess your first question is answered - they are all too ******ed from overwork to find time to peruse pprune, let alone post a reply.

9th Dec 2002, 14:28
Fascinating thread this.

'Twas ever thus for as long as men have gone down to the sea in ships.

Companies coming and going, old ones going down, upstarts upstarting, the landside bars full of beached old old timers dreaming of old times and doling out wisdom to young new timers champing at the bit for the chance to make it their own.

It'll hog they say, tapping their pipe and sucking another draught, second guessing every arrival and departure, it's human nature to so do, there's never a landing that couldn't have improved on been, right. :D
"Not bad, but if it had been me, well I'd have ................ blah blah blah."

VB will get along very well thank you without the Greek Chorus as much as the Chorus would like to think otherwise.

The main and really really hard lesson I have learn't in life is that I don't own "the way".

12th Dec 2002, 02:14
hey Zone I will have a go at your Q

Yes VB are expanding but essentially the same information is used to operate. By that I mean that Vb have 3-4-7-800 some with winglets and different eng configs. at the end of the day the data is all presented in the same way and operationally there are very few differences. The are only two classics and a fair percentage of pilots are not required to fly them. those of us that do all flew the classic for a while before the NG so its no a big problem. as for the other facets of the operation flying into different ports is the same as any flying, You research before you go there and look at the gotcha's. I dont think any VB pilot would say that the ops manual and other paperwork is really well done and it is being refined all the time, eventually it will sort it self out (fingers crossed). As to other expansion problems well that happens in any company and you just get used to it, it sort of makes life interesting having tail changes and diversions from the planned roster. as to all the over worked comments- yes the captains work hard but the Fo's dont seem to do more than 60-70 hours a month, in fact i average 16 days off a month not including hollidays. As far a the EBA goes yes its a pain not being paid as much as we would like but i guess we are all hopefull that it will sort itself out by next year.
So here are the positives.

1. we work under CAO 48
2. we get to fly brand new aeroplanes
3. we get to fly with great guys and girls
4. you get to live in SE QLD
5. the FA's are good fun
6. you dont have to put up with the GA or regional airline problems
7. we overnight in Per,Syd,Mel,Hob,Lst,Dwn,CG,Tsv,Cns, Adl soon to be Cbr ????

and some negatives
1. We dont earn as much as our counterparts
2. we work for a company that is very different in its management style
3. we have to pay for our own endorsement
4. that paperwork can be a pain
5. the ansett sim sucks
6. we do a couple of bad duty flights
- bn-dn-bn red eye
- ph-ml-bn-sy red eye
- ph-sy-bn-sy
- ph-ml-lt-ml

I guess at the end of the day those who hate the company will always bag it as will those who dont know it, but what is the other choice (other than QF,NJ,Impulse,Alliance), a Saab or Dash 8, there is nothing wrong with the turb-props but you earn even less and get to fly in icing and turblulence more of the time. i guess its you choice.

12th Dec 2002, 08:39
As far as i know there is less than 6 Non-scab AN captains left in Melbourne who would dearly love to work for VB and have not had any O/seas job offers the alternative is sit at home or get a 9-5 job, why would anybody wish this on a fellow aviator who through no fault of their own is now unemployed.
The mentality is similar in Dragon where Captains off A320 are not welcome but saab dash 8 and CRJ is OK.
Im certainly not saying the AN guys are any better but if you were expanding rapidly or flew the same aircraft type these guys had flown isnt there something wrong with this picture .
Why should these guys be pushed out of Aviation, even sadder if you think you can go to Easterns or National jet they are then over-Qualified.
Most of these Captains believe the worst thing they ever did was get a command because its certainly a lot harder to find work than for a First Officer, is this how aviation is supposed to be. The recruiters at VB certainly have lost these guys in the pile somewhere but not all AN Captains were involved in 89.

Zone 5
12th Dec 2002, 10:50
Thanks, cannon man for your concise and informative reply...

I would surmise from your statements that despite what the gainsayers claim, they are probably on par with any other airline of that age - some good points, some bad, maybe different good and bad points to other airlines, but a balanced collection of both all the same.

As the French say,

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

I dearly wish that all of the ex-Ansett pilots still seeking employment could find same, and I personally don't like the probable reasons why some aren't getting a look in with DJ. There is no doubt they are missing out on some very good people (that is not a disparagement of those they have taken - some very good people there too.) But, as someone pointed out on another thread, it's their train set, they can build it with a different layout to what we would prefer, and will still work well enough.

We don't have to like it, we do have to accept it.


PS Ain't -ve item 5 the living truth! :cool:

12th Dec 2002, 22:09
Ramboflyer, reading your diatribe leaves me in no doubt as to why you (and your friends should they share your views) are still unemployed.
A command at An does NOT make you overqualified for the regionals, however your attitude towards them demonstrates why you are still unemployed. Get out of the industry, oh thats right, you are!

12th Dec 2002, 23:13
I believe David Bowie once sang "ugly as a teenage millionaire"

The "Correct Attitude" is one of the most important lessons

learned from the right seat after 5yrs. I think if most of the

neophyte Capts. in VB were asked to be honest, they would say

that they "have it nailed" with just 1000hrs jet time. Is this the

correct attitude?

90% of the ex-AN Capts. are not a-holes. They can at least say

that they properly earned, deserved and most importantly,

appreciated their command.

I am very certain they would feel the same way about just

getting an interview with VB, let alone an F/O position.

13th Dec 2002, 02:54

Where is your pride?

Many in the industry relish seeing you in the situation you are in! Whatever the motive or reason. You will find little sympathy in an industry with such hard attrition.

Give up on Singapore Domestic, Virgin Blue and Dragon.

I have no idea how difficult your initial "climb up the greasy ladder" was but you have to make the trip again.

No sympathy and no favours!

Another 50 to 60 exAnsett pilots are in the process of being employed by various airlines by mid January. Good luck and hope you are one of them.

13th Dec 2002, 04:30
Karunch and Gnadenberg obviously have secured jobs already.

13th Dec 2002, 04:34
Dear Richard Kranium (and his admirers)

Can you, just for a few minutes focus on the good news that VB exists at all...that it has given hundreds of people jobs (not just pilots but a lot of honest folks who wil NEVER earn what a young F/O does) and that it is growing fast and by building the travel market, creating left and right seat jobs that just wouldn't exist if the QF juggernaut continued unchallenged.

I don't fly for them and never will...but I sometimes fly on them and love it.

Remember, TAA was started by "mates" and they built a great airline...only to see it destroyed by those who would let hatred and spleen get in the way of sound professionalism. If you're not wishing an ulcer (or worse) on yourself, get some positive thinking into that Kranium and take some time to smell the roses.

We in the aviation world are all better off for VB's presence and if it only gets a C+ for recruitment practices well then that can only get better. There was a time I recall when the only assets needed to get a job in Australia were that you WERE NOT a member of the AFAP and had a thick skin.

Things sure have improved.

13th Dec 2002, 20:28

I do sympathise with your situation.

What I am trying to point out is your plight is welcome by many Ppruners and alluding to difficulties over prejudice will only fuel this joy.

Why does Virgin blue have a propensity for 1500 hour pilots?

Because they will welcome the job, they are not underpaid like exCX exAN exEK in the position and consequently will pose little maintenance as employees and pose little industrial trouble.

The risk is their experience. This is has no doubt been weighed up commercially as a factor of a benign air environment!

Smart management really. Their skill at keeping wages down and morale up groundbreaking.

I do worry that Air Services has turned a blind eye to the fact that such inexperienced pilots receive such inadequete endorsement training.

Before a young VB 737 pilot admirably leaps to his companies defence, I will add the place is leaking like a sieve! The leakers have had exposure to airline ops worldwide and the appraisal balanced.

13th Dec 2002, 23:14
Gnadenburg- exactry!

Kaptin M
14th Dec 2002, 00:10
What I am trying to point out is your plight is welcome by many Ppruners and alluding to difficulties over prejudice will only fuel this joy.
I'd dispute that, Gardenbug - having been unemployed (in aviation) for more than 1 year in 1989-90, I feel sure that anyone who has been through it would NOT wish it upon, nor take any pleasure from seeing families suffer as a result of their main bread-winner being unemployed.
For sure there was an "element" within Ansett that would hopefully find employment outside aviation, having earned sufficient in the years up to Sept 2001.

For the others - what can anyone tell you that you don't already know? Those of you who have done it honestly are aware of HOW hard it was to "get there", and as Gnadenburg has rightly said, "you have to make the trip again.
That is the truth, plain and simple! :(

Some captains will have to take a rhs again - others will make meteoric leaps.
Just about all F/O's, regardless of how "experienced" you are, are going to have to face the fact that you will be a "junior" F/O in your new company, and your clock has been re-started. I was nearly 16 years in the rhs before I finally got the opportunity to move across.
As a crusty old ex-Ansett with SQ told me, "A First Officer's job is an honorable one!", when we were told there that to qualify for the lhs we would have to re-join on local terms (most of us were then on expat conditions) for a FURTHER 5 years (in addition to the 5 we had already done.....and the 11 with Ansett prior to that) before being considered eligible to commence upgrade training! :( At that time, most of us (F/O's) thought that we would NEVER see a command - most did, by sticking it out.

The jobs are there. Two pilots in the company for which I work have had (very good) job offers within the past 2 weeks, which is pretty amazing when you consider the hundreds on the market!

Forget about the "we did it this way in Ansett" with your new employer. Each operator has THEIR way of doing things - as awkward or as inefficient as it may seem to you.


14th Dec 2002, 00:57
Kapt M

I will conveniently use New Zealand to argue my disputed point.

How many Air NZ pilots offered sympathies to ex AN pilots on these pages post collapse?

What about clowns like Top End? He and other Kiwis thought the situation a big joke.

Jokes about pilot suicides?

My advice to Rambo stands. Bleating will only worsen the plight.

Kaptin M
14th Dec 2002, 01:35
Give us a break, Gnadenburg, How many Air NZ pilots offered sympathies to ex AN pilots on these pages post collapse?

How many Ansett Australia pilots offered sympathies to the Ansett N.Z. pilots when theirs' turned into a basket case?
How many pilots (full stop) offered sympathy to the CX 49'ers?

Most here are ADULTS - sympathy goes nowhere in funding a replacement job, or paying the continuing bills.

"Poor ******s" is probably about the best you should expect.

Who knows WHO Top End is? He might be a 10 year old out for a juvenile romp on the keyboards.

Pilot suicides - yes.....and other staff as well.
That (suicide) however, is a PERSONAL (but often selfish) self-administered decision.
Many people live on a daily basis with torments and grievances, but realise that suicide would only place an even GREATER burden on those left behind - I guess the exception being a terminal illness.

By the same token, "bleating" as you put it, doesn't curry much favour with Aussies, but it helps to draw everyones' attention to matters that generally may NEED highlighting from time to time.

You, Gnadenburg have your opinion - Ramboflyer his.

And that, my friend, is what PPRuNe is ALL about. :)

14th Dec 2002, 02:32
Ton up guys, feel free to start again