View Full Version : QANTAS operating single pilot?

Kaptin M
3rd Nov 2002, 03:12
As Air New Zealand , aka Air Sheep, only operate a 737 from Brisbane to Christchurch - whereas QANTAS run a 76 - AND because I have always found the QF cabin crew far more genial and less despotic than TE's, I decided to give my family a break from the sun, sea, and sand, of the Gold Coast, and fly across to the Shaky Isles for a couple of weeks.
(There's a great little town called Hanmer Springs about 130kms north of Christchurch, that offers fantastic scenery, great restaurants, thermal pools, jet boating, etc).

We were fortunate enough to have enough FF points to get an upgrade to Business Class, and perhaps that was ONE reason that the cabin service was par excellence, along with pretty good solid and liquid consumables! :)

The time in Hanmer was relaxing, and not expensive as the NZD runs at around 2:1 to the USD, and the flight back to Oz was fairly much on a par (from the cabin service aspect) with the one going over.
However, on BOTH occasions the Captain made the PA, and in EACH case there was not a mention of the First Officer's name.
Likewise with the "Welcome" PA made by the cabin crew prior to flight - the Captain's name, and that of the Senior cabin attendant and one or 2 others is given - but no acknowledgement of the second-in-command's presence.

If nothing else, I would have thought that common COURTESY would dictate including the F/O's name in at least one of the PA's - probably the Captain's.

It IS something that I, as a full fare-paying passenger/customer notice. :eek:

The Flying Lad
3rd Nov 2002, 03:27
'tis courtesy for sure.

But I think most people couldn't care less.

Hugh Jarse
3rd Nov 2002, 03:29
Saucer of milk to Kap' M :D :D

Dan Kelly
3rd Nov 2002, 04:36
I recently heard some one pontificating that the latest in Airline Corporate PR thinking with respect to PAs is that the SLF only want to hear the Skipper's name. Additionally they only want to hear from the Skipper, that way they can delude themselves that it is really s/he flying, rather than the 'wannabe' in the RHS.

And before I get flamed for referring to F/Os as a wannabe, think back to the good old days, pre Sept 11.

Pax comes to flight deck for a look-see, asks dumb questions, including this example to the F/O, " do you want to be a commercial pilot one day"? :rolleyes:

3rd Nov 2002, 05:56
I look forward to the day that I settle in to my seat at the cinema and hear the dulcet tones of Simon the projectionist...

"Welcome to Greater Union's 6.30 screening of Lethal Weapon 6, starring Mel Gibson. My name is Simon and I will be your projectionist for the session. Assisting me today with door duties is Sandra and Paul and Julie are at the candy bar. This cinema is equipped with the latest THX cinema sound system to enhance your viewing pleasure. The cinema is maintained at a pleasant 22 degrees for your comfort. In the interests of safety please refrain from smoking and in your own best interest please switch off your mobile phone now as it may interfere with someones head. In the event of an emergency, safety lighting will illuminate, please exit by the doors to the sides of the screen. So now sit back relax and enjoy the film and I'll speak to you again as we approach the end of the session."

No more ridiculous than some of the credits for films that scroll past, the dog wrangler, best boy etc. Who cares?

Buy a new car and there is no honour roll in the boot showing who welded the seams and who installed the engine...

Let's move away from the mentality that came with early cars and aircraft, you know, walk in front with a red flag to warn people it is coming.

3rd Nov 2002, 06:22
"QF cabin crew more genial that TE's"

Not sure many people will agree with that one.

3rd Nov 2002, 07:00
Along a similar line is the propensity for the domestic CSMs to not acknowledge the F/Os surname. In 99% of cases the CSM will announce over the PA that the Captains name is 'Joe Bloggs and the F/O is Tony'. No surname but at least I do rate a mention. The other interesting part of that is that requirements such as wheelchair requirements and so on are ALWAYS directed at the F/O- even if I'm the one doing the sector.

That said Kap, I'd have to reckon that about 50% of the skippers actually do acknowledge the F/O. I try to acknowledge the S/O when I'm doing the PA and we've got one on board as well (if the boss hasn't done so already!). I guess some have learnt common courtesy over the years, others haven't.

Glad to hear the flight was pleasant though. Sorry I wasn't there this time! :D

Hugh Jarse
3rd Nov 2002, 07:11
Does it bother you, Keg? ;)

Have to say I didn't worry too much when I was in the RH seat. That way nobody knew that it was my landing:eek: Come to think of it, I couldn't care less whether my name is mentioned now or not. :D

Ego is an interesting creature isn't it?

Feather #3
3rd Nov 2002, 08:06
Well, Capt old chap, believe it or not, by express direction of our employers, we are told that the full fare paying pax do NOT want to know anything about the F/O and SPECIFICALLY if he is flying the a/c!!

However, some may protest this by not making any PA's as Capt and letting the F/O do the lot on his [hs usage] sector, unless some greater operational requirement comes up. They are still NOT told that the F/O is actually FLYING the a/c, and so corporate direction is faithfully obeyed.

Some guys do announce who the F/O is and also add surname.

G'day ;)

3rd Nov 2002, 09:11
I dislike the term "And assiting the captain on the flight deck today is FO ****".

When quite often it is the FO flying the sector.

Kaptin M
3rd Nov 2002, 09:16
"...the full fare paying pax do NOT want to know anything about the F/O and SPECIFICALLY if he is flying the a/c!!"
Well whoever told you that is telling LIES, Feather #3, because I and my family are full fare paying pax!

And WHY would we - the full fare paying pax (you can disregard those "scum" that fly on discounted tickets, eh what!) be listening to hear mention of another crew member on the flight deck?
Rumour has it that the public has a short memory, however it's not SO short that they have forgotten QANTAS' Bangkok accident.

The Captain who makes a PA and does NOT make mention of whom his F/O is - to me - comes across as something of a one-man-band.....the arrogant, authoritarian, CAPTAIN, who makes ALL the decisions and proceeds with them, regardless of changing circumstances, and protestations from the other crew member(s).

CRM - which I'd have thought would be ahot issue in QF - would most certainly debunk the myths being spread that the SLF want to hear ONLY from the Captain!
What message does that send to some CAPTAINS who already believe that CRM is a load of bollocks, and that F/O stands for "Flap Operator" and nothing more?!
Conversely, what message does it relay to the F/O who is already somewhat reluctant to speak out?

Like it or not, multi-crew operations are a TEAM effort, and part of the psyche in reinforcing that in the minds of those who don't warm to that idea is to consider the other member(s) of the TEAM.

Pity you weren't there to renew acquaintances, Keg - Cheers mate!

3rd Nov 2002, 10:23
Boy,we really do cover the BIG issues here on PPrune!

Kaptin M
3rd Nov 2002, 10:36
As you've seen fit to peruse the subject, and take the time to post a comment, Woftam, you might like to expound YOUR views a little further on this aspect of CRM. :)

Hmmmm, thought not. :rolleyes:

3rd Nov 2002, 11:00
At work we have one training captain who has told all the flight attendents they must always call him captain even if he is in the r/h seat. I have seen this captain abuse f/a's if they get it wrong:mad:

I've told the FA's just to say "on behalf of the crew" that way it covers everyone including them. Big deal if the captain's name is not said.

Feather #3
3rd Nov 2002, 22:15
To perhaps add fuel to the fire;

I regularly fly in a 4 pilot crew. One could accuse some contributors to this thread of ignoring the Second Officer/s [about which considerably more elswhere in D&G! ] The 'Classic' flies with 4 pilots and a Flight Engineer; the latter an integral part of the team.

So, do we then institute a roll-call of flight deck personnel in our first PA?

But wait; there's more! CRM is Crew Resource Management is it not? We've left out 13 of the Cabin Crew [only the Boss and Supervisor of the rear cabin are introduced at the moment.]Where do we draw the line?

G'day ;)

Going Boeing
3rd Nov 2002, 23:13
Generally, pax are bombarded with PA's (mostly generated by "commercial management types" who want to minimise QF's exposure to litigation). Consequently, I try to keep my PA's to the shortest possible but still get the important information to the pax, and thus I don't mention the other crew members names except when another crew member is flying the sector, then I introduce him/her. Most pax just want to get on with the movie or reading etc.

3rd Nov 2002, 23:17
Kaptin M the company has said that we are not to mention the fact that it is the FO flying the sector. However the FO usually does the PA when it is his/her sector introducing themselves as FO*****. Now whether or not I agree with it is immaterial, I go along with what they ask within reason. (Their trainset)
To suggest that this will break down CRM is a joke. Do you really think that a crew member who is weak on CRM is going to be any different whether a name is mentioned or not, I don't!

4th Nov 2002, 01:26
Dearest Kaptin M,
I saw fit to peruse the subject because of the title,NOT the content.(false advertising?)
I took time to post a comment because I think you are drawing a VERY long bow associating CRM with the fact that the F/O was not mentioned on TWO occassions!
Yes, I DO mention the F/O in my PA's and they even call me by my first name! (shock,horror).
Do your F/O's call you by first name?
"Nice sunrise isn't it Captain"
Hmmmm Thought not.

4th Nov 2002, 02:23
Since this thread has finally swung this way, may I ask...

Is it generally accepted that the Captain shall be addressed as "Captain", or similar, by other flight deck members in QF?

Never had the opportunity to ask.

Re. the original post, I have worked on 2,3 and 4 member crews for 6 years, and been mentioned in the PA's twice. This is standard in the mob I work for. In fact as SLF, I often glance around to see who is listening to the Captains blurb. Often no-one!

4th Nov 2002, 03:12
Rivetting post guys.

4th Nov 2002, 03:33
Well where do you stop? Virgin Blue mentions every crew member (including Cabin Crew) just prior to their safety drill.

It's a nice touch, don't know if I'd want to have to hear 19 names on a 747 though!

4th Nov 2002, 08:03
Well i'd draw the line at not saying anything at all about names.

CRM is interesting in this context, I see ground engineers have been left out of the "team" altogether!

Chronic Snoozer
4th Nov 2002, 17:20

Kaptin M
4th Nov 2002, 21:38
Do your F/O's call you by first name?

Ever flown for an Asian airline with Asian crew, Woftam?
As a matter of fact, do you ever SPEAK with any pilots who do?
Obviously not, as your question reveals your "ignorance" of other cultures.

But in reply to your question - one or two do, occasionally. But only because they have lived outside their home country for extended periods and have some understanding of our culture.
Furthermore, other (Asian) captains also use "Captain" or "- - - san" as the usual (and informal) form of address. NEVER first names!

You really need to expand your horizons, Woftam, and try to understand other cultures.

As to the CRM issue, IMHO, being TOLD to NOT include the F/O`s name as part of the PA subtly sends a message to the F/O.

5th Nov 2002, 02:54
As I said earlier Kaptin M.........Yawn!!!!!
You sound like you would be absolutely fantastic at CRM.
Your track record shows that if someone dares to disagree with the great Kaptin M or have a different opinion than yours they are howled down and abused.
Have a nice day.

5th Nov 2002, 06:01
Sorry, but I am a little confused. :confused:

Could someone PLEASE advise exactly which flights operate with only one Pilot, so I can avoid those flights. ;) :D

5th Nov 2002, 07:18
Kaptin M-

I don’t know why everyone seems to pick on you! Perhaps you should consider your “delivery”. For instance, one does not have to use a railway sleeper to kill a cat?

I agree with your sentiment in the initial post but others have missed your point, because you often seem “bombastic” in your approach.

Being an ex Ansett pilot from pre 1989 you would have experienced a good deal of “single pilot” mentality from some of your Captains.

The message from Flight Operations in Ansett over the last few years of operation was that “The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s.

How line crews handled this varied enormously.Some F/O’s felt obliged to introduce themselves as the Captain, if they made the PA. etc etc.

I guess there is no simple answer but on the balance of probability you and I are probably correct and everyone else is wrong!

:confused: :)

5th Nov 2002, 09:06
Huge difference between including the F/O and S/Os in your initial PA and telling the punters he or she is flying the sector. Doesn't particularly bother me either way, I just find it interesting to find out who does and doesn't!

Kaptin M
6th Nov 2002, 10:07
one does not have to use a railway sleeper to kill a cat

Perhaps a common mistake some of us (myself included) make, is that because PPRuNe is targeted at professional pilots, we expect a modicum of intelligence to be displayed in the posts.
In addition, I would - on the one hand - class pilots as generally open-minded, occasionally unconventional/non-convential, and tolerant.
And on the other hand, classify them precisely 180 degrees the other way!

How many pilots with whom you associate, do you think of as being singularly selfish, but overly generous in social situations?
"Many", if not "most", I would {personally} reply.

Sorry if "bombastic" is the way I come across - the written word is NOT one of my stronger subjects! :(

Being an ex Ansett pilot from pre 1989 you would have experienced a good deal of “single pilot” mentality from some of your Captains.

Quite the contrary, in fact.
The pre-'89 Ansett pilots more-or-less looked upon themselves as a "family", handing on from one generation to the next the (high) standards that were expected to be maintained. As such, there was a sharing and nurturing that generally precluded the "single pilot" mentality.
Words of advice that will ALWAYS stay in my mind, came from one of those AN Captains relatively early in my career, and they were,
"I have to train you to a standard that I'll be happy with, so that if ever you're flying my family somewhere, I won't have to worry about them."
Single pilot mentalities, in multi-crew scenarios, just don't fit into that scope!!

"The Public” does not want to hear from the F/O and that the Captain would make all PA’s."
Quite FRANKLY, "The Public" generally wouldn't have a clue WHO was making the P.A.
If it's a male voice, they assume it's "The Captain".
(Conversely, if it's a female [voice], they presume it's "Cabin Crew"). Sexist as that remark seems, I'm afraid it would generally be qualified as correct!

Having said that, there is absolutely NO reason that the manipulating pilot could not introduce himself (on the P.A.) as, for example, "Good xxxxxxx , this is the pilot speaking. Blah, blah, blah."
This is ASSUMING of course, that the EGO in the lhs allows it.

For those of you who are unsure as to whom should be mentioned in the P.A. - hang around aviation a little longer and the answer(s) will slowly (but surely) crystallise! :)

Kaptin M
6th Nov 2002, 11:12
Life as a journey, maybe YOU have hit the nail on the head, when you say ,"..it is Qantas that is determining the run of the mill"

Because maybe QANTAS have NOT got the CRM issue RIGHT! (Sorry, Keg)
It's just possible that the problem starts from the gound up!
As a full-fare paying, frequent flyer of QANTAS, I challenge the staement that the pax want to hear ONLY from the captain!
And IF that IS the case, why do they (QANTAS) allow the Cabin Crew to make P.A.'s?

Captains (in every airline) are the END PRODUCT of the END PRODUCT.

The final market product of every airline is the FLIGHT - conducted in the airplane.
And the manager of that FINAL PRODUCT is the Captain AND the First Officer.
Like it or not.

6th Nov 2002, 18:57
Kaptin M,

you are taking a small piddly non-issue and trying to turn it into the next contributing factor in a major incident!

The reality, is 99% of the guys I have flown with dont give a toss if their name is, or is not mentioned. In fact, most of the time no one else on the flight deck is actually listening to the pre-flight PA, as they are usually doing something else, trying to get away on time.

For the record, as a SO I have been mentioned more than 50% of the time I have been given a sector.

What is annoying is when the Captain and the FO both try and make you laugh when you are trying to get out the PA at TOD that you have spent the last 15 minutes trying to work out what to say!!

We dont care, the majority of passengers dont care; get over it.

6th Nov 2002, 19:41
I think the point the Kaptin is trying to make is the intangible messages that it sends to both punters and operating crew. Firstly, whilst punters want to know that the boss is doing the work and probably feel 'safer' that way, it is a 'feeling that is based on false assumptions and ignorance. In this area we have an obligation (in my opinion) to educate the public that it takes two (or three or four) to drive the thing and whilst the boss may be the boss, there are times when others have significant input into what goes on. I acknowledge that to punters, perception is their reality and that that issue needs to be acknowledged but that shouldn't mean that we just 'accept' their reality. We should be attempting to alter their perception.

Whilst those of us who 'get' CRM or are comfortable with it's concepts may find the link somewhat thin between acknowledging the F/O and/or S/O in a PA at some stage , it nevertheless does send an albeit subtle message that the F/O is 'superfluous' to requirements. The company re-stating that the punters don't want to know about the F/O flying is a further subtle message that the F/O isn't important in the scheme of things. Maybe that IS the reality though and should be the discussion of an entirely new thread. How important are F/Os?

Now before anyone gets stuck into me. I'm not being 'precious' about it and a boss who doesn't acknowledge me will still get my full support etc, etc and for the most part, I won't think anything about it/them at all. I'm also not saying that it is big enough to be a safety issue- big enough to rate a mention in the crash investigation anyway. In a time though where CRM is moving gradually away from imploring Captains to be more 'inclusive' etc and moving towards skilling up F/Os to be more assertive, speak up more, etc, I find it interesting that the company would endorse something that could be construed by some more fragile personalities as being told 'back in your box'.

Yes Kap, there are CRM issues in QF just as there would be CRM issues in most airlines. Certainly, it appears that QFs heart is in the right place at the moment in terms of trying to make inroads to improving CRM and Human Factors skills in it's crews. Maybe this one will ultimately be addressed, maybe not.

Anyway, the bosses address is:
Geoff Dixon
QANTAS Airways Ltd
203 Coward St
Mascot, NSW, 2020

I'd also CC a copy to:
Captain Ian Lucas
Group General Manager Flight Operations and Chief Pilot (hows that for a title!!)
QANTAS Airways Ltd, etc, etc, etc.

Be interested to see if they write back!

Finally, I'll re-iterate again that from memory, the burst was always to not mention that the F/O or S/O was 'flying' the aircraft. That doesn't mean that we can't add their name in a PA somewhere or at least acknowledge their presence and skills in some way.

ACtually, just thought of something else. Watching the news this morning and noted that 'the pilot' survived the F50 crash in Europe. If we don't make the effort to get it right, why should the journo's. (My sympathies to the family of the other pilot who unfortunately didn't survive)

Dan Kelly
6th Nov 2002, 23:16
The whole PR business of should or should not the F/O or S/O be mentioned is a case of the PR horse being put too far in front of the cart.

Whilst surveys may well indicate that pax prefer to believe that the Captain is actually flying, because they believe the Captain to be the more experienced pilot on board, I don't believe there exists the potential passenger, who will decide whether to fly, or which airline to fly on, based on who is perceived to be flying, or who makes the P.A.

What would have far more impact from a PR point of view, is happy and pleasant service from cabin crew. As close to on time operations from the whole airline, and a confident sounding P.A. from whom ever makes it.

Some P.A.s I've heard over the years would put the frighteners on any one! :eek:

9th Nov 2002, 13:43
Always intoduce the tech crew by full name,no rank,unless the F/O is a smartass.

11th Nov 2002, 10:09
After reading the above I felt quite weepy. and felt like getting in touch with a side of feminine.
Put your hair up and get your dress on.
BTW, does your husband fly too?

Someone please tell me the person that posted this is still a F/o.
No, seriously, I have a bunch of QF Frequent Flyer points to use and the mere thought of being on the same aircraft gives me heartburn.
Speaking of hearts, the Skipper could die of heartbreak listening to this sob-story?
It’s OK, that was me.