Legalities in Buying Aircraft?

[Jamair]

Hi all; looking for information and opinions on whether you should engage a solicitor to write a purchase contract when buying an aeroplane.

Has anyone been down this path and used a solicitor? Comments on worth / value?
Recommendations for particular individuals / companies? (I rang one today that advertises in the AvTrader; he asked what I was buying and when I told him the brand and model he didn't know I was talking about an aeroplane :rolleyes: )

Is there any way of checking whether an aircraft is encumbered or has any lien, levy, mortgage or other instrument against it?

Can you write a contract that gives you a fallback position if the aircraft is not what it was purported to be? (ie if the vendor says there is no corrosion and you don't find any on a pre-purchase, but turn some up later after sale)

I am just about to go neck deep into debt and would appreciate informed info on this subject (yes Gaunty, I know: '2 Bex, a cuppa and a good lie-down, then forget it' or 'stand under a shower tearing up $100 bills' - it ain't a Cessna either, couldn't find one with less than 10K hours on it, for less than the GNP.......)

Thanks in advance.........

[Skypark]

Sorry can't help with your queries, but I am interested in the type of aircraft you are looking at, and how to go about buying an aircraft i.e. where you start and how you know you're not getting a raw deal.

Thanks for any information, I might PM you about it.

SP

[nasa]

Involve a Solicitor, add $10K to the deal, that's my motto. :D :D For a few K $$$'s I'll send you a copy of a contract written for me by a solicitor as a template ;)

Recommendations for particular individuals / companies? (I rang one today that advertises in the AvTrader; he asked what I was buying and when I told him the brand and model he didn't know I was talking about an aeroplane )
Conversly, I had a chap call me yesterday and wanted an aircraft....nahhhh, not going there :rolleyes:

If you want some good stories about people purchasing aircraft, give me a cartoon of 303, bottle of Chivas, and a few hours and I'll let you in on a few secrets. :eek: :eek:

[High Altitude]

And so the prophecy raises its head again...

If it Flies, Floats or F***S, Rent it...................

[gaunty]

Jamair me old .

The tenor of your post and the reaction of the Avtrader person tells me you are about to go where no man has gone before.

Or at least the vendor of the particular aircraft has been there, is still in shock and looking for a way out.

CASA are as far as I am aware up to meeting number 27,145 with the finance industry trying to sort a title and encumbrance system.
It's been in use in the US withe FAA for most of the last century, but remember this is Australia.

Might I suggest that unless the finance companies have forgotten the lessons I taught them at great expense to them some years ago, they probably wont let you go toe deep let alone neck deep if the type is 'exotic'.
They are not keen on people playing fast and lose with their money.
If you have to finance it other than out of personal discretionary income, then you shouldn't.

When it comes to "valuation", you must assume that it is zero unless there is a very active market in the type and that they will want some other security. The family home, is the family home, is the family home keep it that way and as HA says write out 1,000 times the three 'Fs'. If you are still keen then.......try upping your Prozac dosage as well.:D

If there are no buyers in the country other than yourself and/or discretionary/enthusiasts there is no market therefore NO value.

It's value then is maybe Blue Book wholesale (and if its not in there, then it doesn't have a commercial value) LESS ferry and other costs to return it to the US.

If you want email me the type and I'll see if I can find someone to give you the right advice.

Not trying to rain on your parade but I have seen and presided over the burials of too many tragedies in this arena.

[Torres]

Two words: Caveat Emptor

nasa will sell you a real airplane............. I'd love to hear both sides of his stories. (Sorry nasa, couldn't resist..... :D :D :D )

[nasa]

Torres you already know both sides of one story, and we both know how that turned out :D :D

HA If someone doesn't buy it, then no one will be able to Rent it :rolleyes:

Gaunty If you have to finance it other than out of personal discretionary income, then you shouldn't. is that what you tell your home buyers :confused: ....I have made myself a promise not to get into the same old same old with you over financial institutions :cool: :cool:

[gaunty]

nasa
The family home is hardly "discretionary" and mortgaging it to fulifil a fantasy or service an aviation habit, isn't what I would call responsible behaviour.

I case you haven't worked it out yet, "discretionary income" is income that you can afford to **** up against the wall if you wish without endangering your core assets.

If Jamair is being tempted to but an 'exotic' aircraft, then apart from the aforementioned, he should finance a 'reserve' for the inevitable "bump in the night", lest he winds up with a U/S aircraft soaking up monthlys and not being able to have any fun.

And that's the operative word, FUN, you should know better than most it is most NOT fun when you have are the proud owner of a hangar queen.

Children DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. :D

[Jamair]

OK ladies........:rolleyes:

Gaunty, rest assured just cause it ain't a Cessna, don't mean it's 'exotic' ;) ......unless you want to get into definitions and then yes, it comes from outside this country so yes it is exotic. Sleep well, its only a Piper, and a quite common one at that. That is why I was surprised when the 'aviation specialist' solicitor did not know what it was.

My discretionary income is being applied, with LOTS of leeway for nasties, but the bulk of the risk is indeed falling upon the financiers. They are so far satisfied with my approach, which as you & I touched on briefly, revolves not around trying to make a buck out of an old aeroplane, but rather using an aeroplane as a business tool and personal pleasure. It ain't gettin' rented NOHOW!

My families abode is safe and sound and not in any way connected with this enterprise. Re buying an aeroplane as opposed to the various other options, for me it is a case of I don't NEED it - I WANT it. It will be residing in my collection for the foreseeable future. It will not increase in value - if I am lucky it might maintain its current worth but that is actually a decrease over the years with depreciation and inflation etc. The way I have set my finance up, I can pay for the thing whether it works or sits in the shed. I could indeed lease any number of the aircraft I see advertised in the Trader, but I do not wish to be held to a certain number of hours - I am doing 300-odd hr/yr privately as well as occasional charters, but if circumstances change I don't want a lease hanging over me.

Some folks buy boats or caravans or flash cars. I am buying an aeroplane.

Now, as to the POINT of the original post; thanks Gaunty for the info that there is not a register that will show whether it is in hock. There clearly should be. NASA how do you determine whether an aeroplane is encumberance free?

The houses I have bought come with contract stipulations; the cars have similar legal protections from this problem. My inclination is to have a contract that will give me comeback if I get bitten, but not having bought an aircraft I am somewhat in the dark.

NASA if you can knock over a carton of 303 and a bottle of Chivas and still be able to talk, then I am sure you WOULD have some interesting tales - come up to the LRE 747 landing and I'll see how far the budget extends for 'business entertainment' - maybe '100 Pipers' would be more in line with my financial position than Chivas - unless you're shouting?.......:)

[gaunty]

Jamair old chap

If its a Piper then go for it, until the floods at Lock Haven, which took out their Commanche plant amongst other things, they actually had it together.
I was just concerned that you may be considering a Fuji, Sukhoi, Mikoyan or somesuch. Interesting and sometimes elegant but not necessarily 'currency'.

[snarek]

Jamair

AOPA Director Marjorie pagani (Townsville) is a lawyer and has written a contract that she will share with members.

She may also be able to give advice on encumberances. Look her up on the AOPA web under contacts. At the moment there is little guarantee of clear title beyond a written guarantee.

We are trying to get CASA to run an incumberence register on the new Part 47, but they are resisting despite previously agreeing.

Andrew K

[nasa]

Jamair.....A carton of 303 and a bottle of Chivas is but a prelude to bigger & better things for me :D :D I'm not saying the stories will be coherent at that point, but if you stay with me, WTF will you care :D :D

How does one ensure an aircraft is free of problems, in short, in Australia you can't.....One can do the best with what tools are available, but cunning and guile are fairly good starters.....Read the history of the aircraft.....Therein you may find a lot of information that would normally not be found.....As each state in Australia runs its own race, there is a lot of leg work involved for you or your solicitor (involve a solicitor, add $10K).....As snarek says, if CASA would get off their collective RRRses and and make a definitive decision for a change, and instigate a system like the FAA (hell, we could probably even work in with the FAA and thus open untold potential for US banks to finance aircraft out here, back off Gaunty ;) ) it would make life a lot easier.

If you are importing the aircraft from O/S, now that's a different story :eek: :eek:

[Jamair]

Hey, now we're cooking; thanks 'snarek' & I will look that one up.

nasa , while I think of it, was the C320 that crashed & burned at RED the same one we discussed once before? Used to be at AF? Tell you what, you drink, I'll listen; we'll see who cracks first.......:D

Gaunty , thanks again for your advice. I tried something a tad stronger than Bex; it must have been good cause the next two days were a blank........well more of a blank than usual anyhow ;)

Thanks for the replies folks and IF it happens, I'll post a pic for y'all. If it don't - life's like that.

Cheers

[Jamair]

:D OK, the deals done, the bird is bought - just in time for Christmas. So can anyone tell me how to paste a pic of it here?:confused:

Gaunty, I think you might like this one - could have come in handy if you missed the Dash-8.......

[Chimbu chuckles]

Like dis DUDE:D

Jamair's Aztruck (http://www.fototime.com/{3D9D0175-ADF7-437C-B0B4-1BB8EB76E807}/picture.JPG)

Looking forward to a fly too:D

Chuck.

PS. I rather think if Gaunty had missed the Flash 8 he would've happily sat on the floor in back of the Banana.

[gaunty]

Jamair

Congratulations, cool dude aircraft '69 "D" model, built by the REAL Piper Company.

Fill the tanks, seats, shut the door and away sorta.

Not real fast, but comfortable and 'll get you into or out of most anywhere.
It'll take a real load too.
A real lady that'll treat you real good. :D

Are they Metcoaire auxs on the tips and has it got dual hyd pumps??


Chuckles
I would certainly have done so :D, but I think you would have been sick of landing every 30 mins or so to attend to my litle problem :p

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Jamair:

Well Done, Congrats.

I hope it brings you many years of enjoyable and safe flying.

[nasa]

Jamair....Do I read the call sign correctly :confused: .....OXL was on a 182L I once had an interest in.....Was a Canadian registered aircraft that we imported and was put on the register as OXL.....Still shows as a 182L on the register :confused:

What was the previous call sign of the Truck

BTW Gaunty.....D.....From the Pic I would have said an E or F because of the long nose.....Could always be a D with the nose mod done.

OK....OK.... I got one of my kids to come and have a look at the photo and they told me I'm blind, but I knew that.....DXL.....Now I'm happy and I'll be able to sleep tonite :D

Would still be interested to find out about the Nose :confused:

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/66685/ext-1.jpg D

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/69276/ext-1.jpg E

http://www.aso.com/aircraft/69072/ext-2.jpg F

[Chimbu chuckles]

Actually the Aztrucks with the pointy nose are a fine looking aeroplane....but I'll stick to the Banana, just can't see double the FF and engine/prop costs for the same TAS/number of seats. At least not while I have no requirement for much in the way of serious IFR capability...which my mate Jamair does.

BTW in his email to me last week he mentioned it was a '72 model but I cannot recall whether he said E or F...I'll leave him to fill in the detail on what sounds to be a VERY nice machine purchased at a VERY reasonable price.

Chuck.

[nasa]

Going by S/No I have it as an early to mid '69 (my favourite number :D ) as the S/No's range from 3944 - 4402.

Used to operate a D CUW many years ago.....Bloody ripper of a machine, just very expensive when it comes time to doing the U/C :eek: :eek:

[Islander Jock]

Well done Jamair,

I've managed to rack up a few hrs in an Aztruck myself. Not too many 6 place aircraft out there with an 890 kg useful load.

There is a very nice one at Jandakot just waiting for IJ's powerball/lotto/rich dead aunts numbers to come up. :D

[Jamair]

:eek: GAWD, one would have thought from previous postings on the subject of buying scareoplanes that I would have been slagged from one end of Pprune to the other; so very pleasant to hear this positive feedback!!

Folks, it's a C with a mod that does away with the big nostril in the nose, first registered 72 (ergo the original thought it was an E)

It does indeed have the metoaire tips and the outboards, for a total of 700 lts of go-gas, at 100lt/hr...... The U/C just redone with mods to do away with recurrent replacement/inspection of trunnions

Currently having the avionics redone with the Garmin 300XL approach GPS and a Garmin audio panel; still waiting for the JPI engine monitor......everything has stopped for the holidays in USA.

TAS is 165; could have paid another $100k to get an extra 20kt and less useful load (ie Baron/310) albeit they are a bit 'sexier'.... Did look seriously at an Aerostar 600 but .....nah, won't go there, ugly story:rolleyes:

Thanks all for the good wishes and yes Chuck, I'll be down at RED soon, you can come and play, just don't put any nasty mid-seventies blue Beechcraft germs on my newly upholstered late sixties bright red Piper interior:D .

Happy and safe Christmas to all.

[gaunty]

By Serial Number 27-4033 'tis a '69 D.

Yup those Metcoaires are a BIG asset giving you something like 1000nm with VFR reserves.

Pretty schmick avionics too.

Last time I delivered one of those was Jandakot Mildura Bankstown. Had too many coffees and orange juice ex JT and paid for it from aound HOB.:D

I have a feeling I know this aircraft, it wasn't VH-EGI in another life around '84, as there weren't all that many with Metcoaires.??

[hurlingham]

Nasa
did the Doctor own CUW in those days

CBP was around then, not as nice tho.

Did several trips JT to Sale and return

[Jamair]

Gaunty
Dunno; must confess that while poring through the logs et al did not take note of variances in rego - will look at that next time I'm in TWB and get back to you.

The avionics certainly are pretty spectacular; the cost to fit them was also pretty spectacular:eek:

Does good things for the ego but; have the CD playing for the pax, while isolating them from crew or everyone from pilot; copilot and pilot being able to make concurrent transmissions or receive on separate channels. Having new, quality avionics in combination with the ENC headset makes the whole experience different.

Cheers.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

So Jamair, still a good experience owning an aircraft? Just curious what a few years of hindsight has done??

PAF