AH-64 Apache

[mingthemerciless]

Don't visit an LCC pilot within the first few days of his leave, as he will be ill in bed, plagued by illness that his body has fought off until rest is available.

It is not all roses in the commercial world.Better paid mind.

[Bomberpuke]

There is a RAF post available on 3 Regt, just hasn't been taken up for the last several years.........

[MightyGem]

Ahhh, Admiral Byng (http://www.exclassics.com/newgate/ng270.htm). No Royal Navy commander turned down an invitation to fight from there on, regardless of the odds.

[BlenderPilot]

Apache Pilots Required?

I really don't know about their aeronautical skills??

Plus they look like they would want to go Union right away.

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/Apache-Squadron.jpg

[Rich Lee]

I can't speak for the rest, but the fellow in the bottom row, second from the left, was my roommate in flight school. He was a pretty good stick back then. Uncanny sense of direction. Never was captured during the escape and evasion exercise. The ladies loved him for his big tomahawk Last I heard he was flying in the North Sea.

[owe ver chute]

Ref the RAF exchange at 3 Regt. For a few years the DRQHI was RAF when the Regt was at Soest. After that I recall a crab Flt Comd (rank of Sqn Ldr) at 653 Sqn.
To train a guy or girl for 12-14 mth, to only get 18 mth return of service before they return to the RAF then have nothing further to do with Attack Aviation doesn't make sense. At least the Army officers who move on after the same investment end up at desks that revolve around 16 AA Bde or DAAvn and pass on hard earned knowledge onto the staff officers that sit a little higher.

[Wunper]

Rich
You made me spill my coffee!
Looks like your room mate Bull Dog doesn't want to show his tomahawk in case he upsets Little Thunder seated next to him (who seems quite happy to display his BTW)

Judging by the happy expressions this phot was taken in the days before Preparation H was widely available.

W

[FrogPrince]

Out of curiosity, I've just 'googled' this from the Boeing website:
U.S. Army National Guard and Reserve
Nine U.S. Army National Guard (ARNG) and two U.S. Army Reserve (USAR) components are now flying the AH-64 Apache. The ARNG attack battalion in Arizona flies the more advanced AH-64D Apache Longbow; all other units in the Reserve Component fly the AH-64A Apache.
States with ARNG units flying Apaches include Arizona , Idaho , Mississippi , Missouri , North Carolina , Pennsylvania , South Carolina , Tennessee , Texas , and Utah . The USAR units flying Apaches are located in Kentucky and Texas . Texas is the only state with both ARNG and USAR Apache battalions.
ARNG units have been fully engaged in operations around the world including Operation Enduring Freedom, Bosnia and Kosovo.
Are the pilots all ex-Regular and just the F/T component of the NG / Reserve ?
How many hours does a reservist in North Carolina have to fly each month to remain current on the AH-64 ?

[peoplespoet]

OVC,
You are correct with the statement that at least the AAC officer remains in an AH desk job or appointment, not sure that I support the view that they pass on quality information; more their own opinion which is often what the hierarchy want to hear rather than what is actually happening or is required/needed.

The biggest problems occur when an officer makes a decision that is only taken in order to get him/her through their 2 year posting; and because they are unlikely to return to front line aviation they will never be made accountable for the desperate situation that is left behind. Things like ...HALS,Spares,Helmets,Breakout-Tools, Navbags,Ammo,MPS and not to forget the manning crisis and the many more greatly managed projects that remain inadequate or unavailable.

Oh and everything Else can go on the risk register...that must be like yellow pages by now!

I could be wrong though?:bored:
PP.

[AHQHI656SQN]

Frog Prince.

The Army National Guard units are not all ex-regular soldiers.
I was lucky enough to do an Apache course at Fort Rucker, where the majority of aviators who were on A model Apache were from Guard units, mostly converting from Cobra, a lot of them were young men off the street, who joined the local Guard unit insteed of joining the regular army. They are CW1 and above, they have an obligation to return a set number of years and a set number of days on duty. One fella who was on the cse in ahead of me from New Jersey was a UH1 pilot, and flew on the 100 aircraft lift for Hamburger Hill (I'm not talking the film!) another fella Charlie (great guy on the p155) from the same unit was also a Vietnam war veteran.

I don't know how many hours they fly, I didn't keep in touch with the people I was with at Rucker, I'll see if I can dig out an email address and ask for you.

[foxtrot tango]

An AH-64 aviator (A or D) has to fly 140 hours per year whether they are in the active componet or the National Guard. This flight time can be reduced if they enter late in their training year.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Isn't this the latest picture of the new recruits for the
PC division of Ethnic pinks at the London Met!:suspect:

Vfr

[FrogPrince]

Many thanks for the 'gen'. There's hope for 6 and 7 Regts AAC (V) in 2012 (2017?) then !

:hmm:

[diginagain]

'Ang about - those blankets look familiar. Are they on a course at Wallop? I wonder if by the end of the course that photo will have some red Xs across a few faces.

[mutleyfour]

6 Regt will not see AH as it will have no aircraft because its function is to backfill groundcrew on Ops.

7 Regt, hmm, that would be a major coup.

[FrogPrince]

Oh, I know 6 Regt AAC(V) is groundies only. I have a personal interest in these developments.

The roles of both 6 and 7 will evolve over time - hence the reference to 2012. By then the Gazelles will be gone, to be replaced by (insert fav choice), Future Lynx, SABR, Watchkeeper UAV, UCAV etc. will be with us. In short, the demand for aviation in the future battlespace is only increasing whilst market forces will cause the usual peaks and troughs in demand for ex-military aircrew to go ATPL / CPL.

Logically, reservists are a flexible labour force to complement the Regulars. Given the size of the GA pool in the UK, it is entirely feasible for the AAC to source pilots into military aviation who have not come from the ex-Regular route. This obviously works for the US Army, even with as complex an airframe/weapons system as AH-64.

[mutleyfour]

Intersting points FP, however Future Lynx and SABR are dead, BRH is the new buzz word and even if accepted at UK PLC level won't be here until 2012 at the earliest according to industry sources.

As for joe bloggs walking in off the street to fly AH at the weekend in order to integrate fully into an op unit as and when surely is pure fantasy in the UK.

We are after all talking about the UK Defence Budget

[FrogPrince]

I don't really imagine a reservist will be flying AH anytime soon.

However, that doesn't preclude their use for other aircraft, such as UAV's when the CAA tells the army it needs qualified pilots to fly Watchkeeper in uncontrolled airspace and there aren't enough to go around quickly enough.

Feasible isn't the same as practical or likely !

By extension, this also means that Uncle Sam must have money to burn on a capability that is neither effective nor deployable, which I doubt.

[ShyTorque]

As usual, too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.....

[peoplespoet]

AHQHI656SQN or any other AH driver:

Is the rumour true that AH pilots now qualify at CTT without having live fired at all, and will only fire cannon during CR training. I Heard it in the crew room and argued that it couldn't be true. As an old Mk7 TOW driver and having to fire TOW during CTT to qualify surely this is not the case?

If it is true it marks the beginning of the end for AH....and so soon!


PP

[SASless]

Frog,

I cannot answer the flying hour question. However, the Guard and Reserve pilots are not full time soldiers. A very small number are and are called Technicans when working as a Civil Service employee at the Guard Flight Activity. The Technicians would be called Cadre in some places but serve a dual role when in the Guard.

The Guard is the State Militia and are subject to both State and Federal duty if called by the Governor or President for active service.

The Reserve has no State obligation.

These folks are our neighbors...the banker, plumber, lawyer, truck driver....teacher...accountants....who are not "full time" members of the military. When they finish their deployment to Iraq and other places...they revert to their regular professions.

Not all the pilots are from "active duty" and many have done only Guard service with all flight training and conversion courses being done at Active Duty Army Schools.

Guard Pilots must meet the exact same standards their active duty brethern do....they attend extra training sessions beyond the one weekend a month and two weeks active duty training each year.

The notion only Active Service people can accomplish the mission does not hold water. Add to that, our Reserve and National Guard troops are an integral part of many "Active" units....and do so as "units" and not individual "replacements or fillers".

[AHQHI656SQN]

Peoplespoet.

I'm not sure if you are fishing here, like you know the answer and you're just looking for it to be backed up by somebody who's on this forum overtly.

The truth is I wasn't aware that CTT no longer had an ammunition allocation, and that CTR would only fire 30mm DP, I'm now curious. There hasn't been any such chat in our crewroom.

Please check your PM's.

[CPG]

I am in agreement with you Tom that i have heard nothing of the ammunition being cut for CTT or CTR. Think PP is fishing, and all you have to do is look at the amount we have for the forth coming exercise loads of bangs. Sorry PP but think you may be ill informed on this one.

[AHQHI656SQN]

CPG and Peoplespoet.
I've had it from a very good source that it is true about the ammo being cut from CTT. I do wonder how SAAvn will train its instructors on weapons if they don't get to fire live ammo, then there will be a credabilty issue, how can an instructor talk about diving fire if he's never done it.
This could be the very thin edge of a long wedge!

[peoplespoet]

I am not fishing, I'm no reporter. Thought it was a fair question best answered by an AH driver.

I agree that we are at the thin end of the wedge if you don't have to live fire to qualify from CTT. What next? you will be telling me that Mountain flying or NVG has been removed.

Never mind put it on the 'risk register' and as long as the field army can pick up the pieces then nothing is lost. I do wish that when we have money taken from our training that our lords and masters would just turn round and say No. I understand that pressure will be placed to still achieve and thats understandable, but at what long term cost?

I wonder how a civilian company would deal with a situation where they cant afford a component vital to the production line. Just leave it out and hope it still works when it's switched on? Good planning and management that would be..Not.

I do remember reading a phrase that the British forces once had great pride in "Train Hard...Fight Easy", must have been a lie as it never caught on at all in aviation.

PP.

Very cynical

[mutleyfour]

I also remember the Ministries reasons for reducing the Armed Forces not so long ago included:

A leaner but much better equipped Armed Forces...Ive first hand experience of the lean as well as the mean but with regard the equipment...not seen.

:mad:

[owe ver chute]

Peoplespoet.
There has to be a requirement for any project to get funding; here is some food for thought.
When was the last time that any fighting formation relied upon the AAC to win a battle?
The majority of the senior officers in the Army right now will have come through the BAOR School of war fighting, where the Lynx with TOW was always the last resort when calling HELARM now, Mk 1 Lynx to the rescue! To be fair whenever the Lynx live fired it was with PRAC so that wouldn't really impress the socks off anybody would it? So in my opinion very little faith was put in it. The Lynx was never funded to go to BATUS why? When it did make the odd cameo appearance it had such a devastating effect the Cavalry had very little to do. Get off my train set, BATUS was set up for Armour! Enough said!
The modern Battle Group commander who is outside of 16 AA Bde (24 Bde before it) will not get the intimate working knowledge of the new Army Air Corps, as all of the Armed Regiments now Attack Regiments are in one basket, to be fair even 16 AA Bde didn't really grasp what 3 Regt had to offer during Op Telic 1, it took 7 Bde to get the most out of Lynx TOW and the mighty Gazelle. As for 847 NAS they were devastating and made a massive impact. 3 Bde don’t go anywhere without Avn!
So onto funding issues. 3 quick fire questions and answers:
1. Does Arty struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that an AS90 or MLRS crew don't qualify without live firing lots of ammo. Hey Churchill has Arty ever played a decisive roll in any battles? Oh yes! You can bet your arris it has, it’s so "well in"!
2. Does Armour struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know a tank commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has armour ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
3. Does infantry struggle with ammo funding? I don't know, but I know that a Warrior commander will not qualify unless he's fired live, day and night moving and static. Hey Churchill has Infantry ever played a decisive roll in any battle? Oh yes!
There is a pattern emerging.
The teeth arms have a great deal of support in the higher echelons and as much of a force multiplier as aviation is, everybody is fighting for funding.
Now if the tank was to replace the horse on the battle field then hundreds of horses will be surplus to requirement, so just imagine if the helicopter was to replace the tank? Everybody knows that will never happen; there will always be a need for armour. I’m not sure how much support the AAC and Apache gets when it comes to the odd funding battle. The hype about fire and forget missiles the video footage of Apache destroying targets with impunity and ease give the wrong impression, it looks easy, so it must be! If it’s easy then why do you need to train? Train Hard Fight Easy!
Now a big issue. Officer careers. A young Army Officer straight out of Sandhurst goes AAC, spends about 18 mth pilot training, then if he’s really lucky he’ll get loaded onto An Apache CTT (these start every 6 mth so if the timing is wrong he could wait up to 5 mth) CTT lasts for 6 mth, then 6 mth CTR, he’s been in the Army 2 ½ years without even commanding himself let alone men. His piers in the Infantry and Cavalry would have been Tp/Plt commanders, done BATUS maybe an Op tour, how can he compete? But he has to. As a result the CTT package must not exceed 6 mth, make it fit SAAvn!

I’ve heard the odd rumour about poor flying rates at Dishforth, the reasons vary from no spares, no techs and even no pilots, cos they’re away doing Army orientated disciplines. I’ll bet every pilot has done OPTAG trg prior to Herrick! What ever the reason it would appear that the Army will soon be asking these lads (a lot of them mates of mine) to do some serious sh1t. Now if pre-tour flying rates are low for what ever the reason then the AAC will have learnt nothing. A few people kicking about will remember Ploce in 1995! Not good, and I hope and pray there’s no repeat.

I said at the beginning “there has to be a requirement for any project to get funding”.
One simple question. Does the Army consider the amount of funding required for Apache to be good value for money?
Until Army Avn pulls somebody out of the sh1t, I doubt it.

Given this background I wonder if there is any truth that the AH pilots at Dishforth are going to leave when opportunity knocks! Time will tell.

[peoplespoet]

OVC,

Don't worry yourself OVC I read last year in the telegraph that they are 'ready' for war, the CO broadcast his message to the world media during an open day with a battle cry of "just give me someone to fight" so they must be.

After statement like that imagine the humiliation if they are found lacking in any department.......... it will be a nice shiny medal, promotion or an early pension for him for sure!

PP

[Sloppy Link]

Ammmunition has not been cut from CTT. It has simply been moved to CTR. Rockets were cut from the training last April for all, 30mmTP is still fully supported.

[peoplespoet]

derrrrr,
It has therefore been cut from CTT; meaning that to pass an attack helicopter conversion course you don't have to demonstrate the ability to actually shoot anything, which was my original point. If its just a case of moving it then why not move, mountains, IF or `night flying?

It will certainly keep the course length down and improve the pass rate!

Is it not the case that the ammunition that would have been fired on the CTT is not included into the ammunition allocation for CTR either, apart for a couple of bangs? Therefore actually cutting the ammunition allocation because there isnt any remaining for training!

P.P.

[Sloppy Link]

I'll see your derrr and raise it to a D'Oh. If something is cut, it is taken out, if it is moved then it is conducted in a different phase of the training. From the AH OSP....

CTT ammunition
30mm = X
Rockets Prac = Y
MPSM Prac = Z

CTR ammunition
30mm = A
Rockets Prac = B
MPSM Prac = C

Reality is...

CTT = Nil

CTR =
30mm = X+A
Rockets Prac = Y+B (when they become available)
MPSM Prac + Z+C (as above)

Rockets and their availability is matter of funding (being addressed), the amount required to complete training (under review) and the lead in time from ordering to delivery. The move of firing to CTR was taken as a measure to ease the strain on the overloaded CTT process. IRRC this applies to the current CTR and the next one will resume firing but probably only for 30mm. The rationilastion of CTT/CTR training will produce a more joined up approach whereby hypothetically mountain flying will fit later in the pipeline but formation flying will fit earlier.
Finally, NVG is not taught at all at the moment but NVS is (different optical wavelength). DNVG is not far away though.

Tom,
A SAAvn Instructor should not be doing diving fire, he is not qualified and it is not a TO for a student. All serials are conducted in the hover for CTT therefore that is all a SAAvn Instructor is required to do.

SL

[peoplespoet]

I disagree,
The figures you quote is what I am sure should occur, but the reality is somewhat different I am led to believe from an experienced AMTAT member. The 30mm has not changed for CTR and the CTT ammo has just been swallowed up, or taken as another cost saving measure.

But I reiterate the fundamental point i raised; which was how can someone qualify from an Attack Helicopter course without demonstrating his/her ability to shoot sh1t. Can you imagine a tankie or a infantryman leaving training and not completing APWT or basic weapons qualifications live! It sounds like you have had something to do with the removal of the training from CTT with way you defend the ridiculous idea!

Either way as long as the standard of the chaps on the 2 way range is what is required then fine, but why do the Americans fire at CTT, CTR and every month leading up to Ops. and when not on Ops every 6 months regardless of cost or consequence?

PP.

:}

[Sloppy Link]

The CTT shoot as part of a CTR has yet to happen.:p Methinks you consider a CTT to be the end of the matter, this is not the case. RAC/Inf, upon completion of basic training, are not ready to go on ops straight away and neither is an AH CTT dude, there is more to be done, in fact, if you do know someone at AMTAT as you claim, he will educate you about progressive training methods and the many shortfalls that a CTT graduate has compared to a AH CR pilot. He will also know about the firing requirements, it's good to talk, their number is not a secret.
Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.
You appear to have not helped even though you claim to have the ability to from an earlier post. It might even be said you are doing anything but.
SL
:bored:

[CSRO]

CTT ammo has been cut, after a steady reduction before that and no rockets before that.
Mountains has been cut.

Thank good ness we are not going somehwere mountainous that we require to shoot somebody!

I have done all my ATDs, BPFA and a BCFT though!

The whole thing is a joke and I am considering following the others who have resigned. I support previous posters "how can you qualify on a weapons platform if you don't ever shoot sh1t"? I am too frustrated and not being allowed to train for my job:{

[HEDP]

Chaps,

Just to clarify, initial weapons assessments are carried out in the simulator as part of CTT. The weapons package is taught at CTT as a whole to a basic standard. CTT only ever exposed the crews to initial consequence of fire standard requiring a full table.

Moving live firing to CTR as opposed to CTT enables more progressive use of the ammunition and therefore in theory a better product at the end. Qualification was never achieved until the end of CTR anyway as several tables of munitions are required progressively,

Regards,

HEDP

[peoplespoet]

I have just heard that project AH has lost another instructor (PM), I havnt seen him for a while so not sure if its true. I understand he is still a member of AMTAT but has been discharged on medical grounds? (always was a deaf bugger).

Not sure how this will impact on the program but the loss of another instructor can not be good. The last time I served with the 'badger' was in FRY, he was a door gunners nighmare as the ac comd! (joking)

Could someone that actually knows PM let me know what the bobby is, 'badger' if your a pruner PM me please.

PP
:confused:

[Jeep]

HEDP,

I think you are are wrong. It is my opinion that individual aircrew need to fire live weapons on the CTT to achieve the basic level. Individual skill. They should then progress their tactics, and collective skills with further tables at CTR. Individual skills at CTT, and for an AH pilot, that means firing live ammo. Cutting live firing or reducing basic live ammo from CTT is the wrong approach.

The US Army conversion to AH has them firing 6 tables of 100 rounds, 10 rockets each. Front and back seat, running/diving and hover, both day and night. Their equivalent of CTR has further tables for collective training/unit qualification. They do it that way not because they can afford it, but because it is the the correct way to train an AH pilot.

[Compressorstall]

Comparison with the US is an old chestnut that is worthy of comment. The main reasons they get so much ammunition is firstly they can afford it and secondly their crews need it to achieve the same level of accuracy that our crews can. I am fairly certain that if their ammunition budget was pared down to our levels, they would not be quite so cavalier about their ammunition expenditure.


Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability. The US Army does seem to have substantial experience of AH operations with their fleet of about 500 helicopters. It may be assumed that, just like us, they have aviators who range in ability from 'low average' to 'above average'. Just because we don't do it that way doesn't make it right. I would be happy to have any nation's AH with me who is confident that he can put rounds on target. Military aviation is an expensive business.

[Flap62]

One flew past the end of my garden yesterday and I reckon I could have taken it down with a well aimed croissant. That would make me down in the mouth if I was flying about in it!

[Sloppy Link]

Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability. The US Army does seem to have substantial experience of AH operations with their fleet of about 500 helicopters. It may be assumed that, just like us, they have aviators who range in ability from 'low average' to 'above average'. Just because we don't do it that way doesn't make it right. I would be happy to have any nation's AH with me who is confident that he can put rounds on target. Military aviation is an expensive business.

Fair comment, I think that as we have such small amounts in comparison, we have to extract every tiny bit of training value from the limited resource. Flippant remark retracted.
:O

[Compressorstall]

Sloppy Link - I only hope that our Lords and Masters acknowledge that we need to extract every training opportunity. What ever happened to the 'train hard, fight easy'?

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I didn't buy it, honest guv - it was free at the gym.

The article concerns overspending and then brushing under the carpet, by the MOD - then flying the secrets act flag, firmly over the budget sheets.

It goes on to say that the 67 Apaches in service in the UK cost £40 million each, after the assembly lines and tooling were considered. Israel then bought their machines from the Boeing line for £12m each. The author then states that each of the assembly line workers at Westland could have been given a million quid each if they had bought straight from the USA !

Anyone ?

TFS

[[email protected]]

One flew past the end of my garden yesterday and I reckon I could have taken it down with a well aimed croissant. That would make me down in the mouth if I was flying about in it!
I'm sure that if the crew were aware of any hostiles in the area it was operating in they wouldn't have been such an 'easy' target. Perhaps next time you'd prefer if they hosed you down with some 30 mike mike as soon as you showed your mug. :E

[Compressorstall]

If they were on the wrong phase of the course, it doesn't look like they would have any 30 mike to do any hosing with - and what happened to well-aimed shots?

Is the Apache vulnerable to the well aimed croissant though?

[SASless]

Sloppy Link it is a smug comment to assume that the US lags the British in terms of ability.

"Smug" is not quite the word I would use to describe it....but that will do I guess.


Seems a bit odd coming from folks that are flying "American" aircraft...must be a bit off putting having to fly "second rate kit"....oh, wait a minute...there is no British AH helicopter is there? Just like having to improve the Chinook....and they still cannot fly because the software doesn't work?

I reckon simulated hits are fine on simulated targets....but the proof of the pudding is real rounds on real targets on the two way firing range. Ya'll are welcome to come join in the "real" shooting...."talk" is cheap Sloppy....but "doing" will prove your point. Thus, Sloppy is just talking.

[Sloppy Link]

Fair comment, I think that as we have such small amounts in comparison, we have to extract every tiny bit of training value from the limited resource. Flippant remark retracted.
:O
SASless, RTFP

Regards

SL

[Gerhardt]

Before commenting I want to know if the source for the article is still alive.

I try not to believe everything in print. Except in the Jet Blast forum.

[SASless]

Ah but dear boy....then they would have been "American" AH-64's now wouldn't they? That just would not be the "done thing"....no it just would not do...why one could have 200 of the things whizzing about for that kind of money! Why the poor ol' MOD cannot afford cannon shells for the few they have flyable now anyway. Reckon some of the Typhoon shells that could have been bought if that fighter had a gun could be diverted to the Apache budget?

[paco]

Why am I not surprised? Actually, 40-odd of them would appear to be not actually in service, but in mothballs in deepest Shropshire. Waiting for the apocalypse, perhaps? Maybe they want a bank of spares?

Phil

[Sioux4D]

Whether right or wrong, I believe that the number 67 was devised by a method of extrapolation.

The minimum number of operational Apaches required (say for arguments sake one squadron (8 aircraft)) was assumed at the end of the aircrafts life span, say in 30 years time. It was then worked backwards from an estimated attrition rate due to operational incidents, crashes, component lifing etc to the number of aircraft required at present to ensure the minimum operational number in the future.

[Kleenex]

I heard they were actually disassembling some Apaches in storage to use for spare parts for the operational ones.

[Express Heli]

Well, the Apache's which aren't flying are obviously not flying for a reason. The computer equipment in them was not "up to scratch" for our Armed Forces and are not going to be flown untill it is upgraded.
But at the same time the MoD have a lot of money being spent on other projects for the Armed Forces, so are having to budget the costs into another year's expenditure. The need for the UK to have these attack helicopters is not immediate..thats what we are using America for in Iraq.

(Just what I heard)

Graham

[HEDP]

Balderdash!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thomas coupling]

The requisite number of Apache's are not flying, primarily because there aren't enough "willing" pilots to fly the damned overcomplicated machine:mad:

[magbreak]

seemed to be a few flying round Carlisle today.

[paco]

TC - Whatever happened to "I'm a General - you're not - go fly that Apache!"

Phil

[Thomas coupling]

Go fly an Apache...oh, and bye the way only because we need it in Afghanistan for a 9 month deployment, mate!

From what I hear - the lads are uncomfortable with the idea of flying a management system that takes about 2hrs to pre brief and prepare. They are used to getting airborne quickly and flying the damn thing.
It's not a popular tour............................

[SASless]

Seems a lot of software issues in the UK MOD of late.....Chinook IF kit...Apache Flight Management system....guess one can always find an excuse to down tools.

If one winds up with a single eight aircraft unit down the road....just what kind of combat capability is that to plan for?

So much for the superiority of the British Military technology it seems....at least there is still some guts behind the bayonet....or can you use a bayonet on the SA-80 thing? Uh Oh....should not have mentioned that either....not the best of rifles is it?

[Kleenex]

The Brits call on the Aussies to do their fighting for them anyway, which probably the reason military hardware is not on the to-do list. :p

[nimby]

SASless - ever stop to ask yourself where this dodgy software originates? Not a UK cause, but rather higher standards being applied in the UK.

[Rich Lee]

the lads are uncomfortable with the idea of flying a management system that takes about 2hrs to pre brief and prepare. I can't speak for the pre-brief requirements of any service, but from Battery ON to lift-off with all systems fully operational rarely takes me more than 15 minutes. I could take-off in half that time if I don't need certain systems immediately.

Should there really be a shortage of Apache pilots, have the MOD give me a call, I will sign up and move to the UK.

[SASless]

Nimby...

Is this the usual "British" higher standards? The kind that prevent mission accomplishment and cause several Thousand Million Pounds Sterling worth of equipment to set idle while the troops need the stuff in order to carry out their combat essential missions? The same kind of "higher standards" that gets the Squaddie's boots that melt in the desert?

I would suggest it is "incompetence" that causes these problems....fighters without guns....Chinooks without IF capability....Apaches without pilots....rifles that don't work. "Higher Standards" is an excuse for arrrogance and incompetence. The Apaches are flying in combat daily and doing a good job for several militaries. Maybe one day the British Apaches will get to fire real bullets at real targets.

[Fortyodd2]

SASless,
Yep, those are the ones!!! :\

[Cheesaburger]

the lads are uncomfortable with the idea of flying a management system that takes about 2hrs to pre brief and prepare.

Thats pretty normal for the AirForce isn't it, maybe the wrong service are operating it!!:eek:

[paco]

That's an interesting comment, Cheesaburger - when I first heard the AAC were getting Apaches, a friend and I came to the conclusion that the guys who go on the courses would do very well, but the AAC wouldn't be able to handle the machines at all.

Since the ultimate fate of any helicopter on a battlefield is to get blown up, I have also thought it was better to have lots of cheap machines with trained crews than a few expensive ones. For example, the Chieftain may well be the best tank in the world, but not so good with 200 enemy tanks in front of it! But then, what do I know?

Phil

[i4iq]

Uh, Phil - do you mean the Challenger 2?

[paco]

Probably - shows my age!

phil

[lol2be4]

do you got a foto of the dutch skinned apache longbow from project reality ??

[ChristopherRobin]

Just looked in on this thread and I've never heard such uninformed bollo c ks being spouted in my life.

It's a tough tour sure, but the Apache drivers in Afghanistan are doing incredible stuff and, while the tour takes its toll, are very much enjoying slotting taliban by the truckload. They're also very good at it. They also allow most of the casevacs from warmer LZs to take place by virtue of raining flechette rockets on anyone who pops their head up and gives a dirty look at the IRT chinook.

Just ask 40 Cdo when they get back (round about now).

[MightyGem]

I've never heard such uninformed bollo c ks being spouted in my life.
You're right there, CR, but then again most of the thread is well over 2 years old. You've not been around for a while. Been away somewhere nice?

[HEDP]

Now who might I be knowing at Woodvale then?

[ChristopherRobin]

Mightygem - yep!

Soon handing in my deserts for a 'glad it's all over' t-shirt

and you know I'm far too idle to read the whole thread - just the last page of course - "for the busy executive reader" is how I think they term it in the staff officers' handbook!

[MightyGem]

Now who might I be knowing at Woodvale then?

Well, there could be three of us that fit the bill. ;)

[HEDP]

Anyone of ex-653 vintage?

[MightyGem]

Hmmm...not as far as I know, unless Scotty B is.