Standards of Staff Providing Training

[bealine]

In my dim and distant past, I was formerly a Regional Sales Manager for a "blue-chip" motor manufacturer. Part of my remit was to accompany sales representatives "in the field" and provide training. I took this responsibility so seriously, I went to college at night for two years to gain a City and Guilds Adult Training Certificate.

I have been very surprised, an a little alarmed, to learn that, without exception, in the aviation industry, unless you're flying or handling specialised equipment, the trainers and staff at training centres are taken, at random, from staff who have served "a few years" without any teaching or training qualifications .

How does this compare with your businesses?

[PAXboy]

This would not surprise me at all, bealine, however idiotic it may be.

After 22 years in commerce in the UK, Europe and HKG (also worked for, but not in, US companies), I have stopped being surprised at what they will do to save money.

In the UK, training has gone from 'clear objective' to 'nuisance factor' in about 12 years. No one has tried to save it. I have not worked for airlines but they will be no different to any of the others.

The Stock Market price is all that matters now. Future value is sacrificed daily, to make it look good.

I am sorry to have such a remoreselessly dour view but I have seen that nothing is done if it is not legislated. And then it is only done if someone comes to check!

Companies argue that they give training and then people leave, thus raising the cost. Perhaps if they treated their staff better ...

[rsoman]

Bealine
Your comment
*****
the trainers and staff at training centres are taken, at random, from staff who have served "a few years" without any teaching or training qualifications .
******
I beg to differ. As you know the Big Daddy of the UK Aviation has a new IT supplier to which all the reservations and fares systems have changed over.Being privileged to have been working in the same company for over 6 years until recently , I can confirm that this is not the case with the airline or the supplier concerned.
I have been in the customer support function as a regional manager for the above company(supplier) and I have attended regular and professional trainings along with periodic refresher courses from our very capable training division who holds trainings worldwide. Also some of the trainings I and my colleagues had were for trainer certifications and the minimum standards of qualification required for the same makes the standards required for what I am doing now (I am taking a break for further academics) looks like childs play!
Apparently I cannot comment for others in the scene, but conidering the fact that the company I had worked for are also very much involved in similar work for the french and German majors (airlines) as well as for Qantas,I dont agree with your
statement about training .Maybe some years back it might have been relevant, but now when the competiton is fierce for such big contracts and the clients (the airlines) are very demanding as well.
Regards
RSO

[Xenia]

Uhmmm .... I am not 100% sure about how things work in the UK, but in Italy, to obtain a "trainer" qualification within an airline you've to have first at all at least 12 years of flying experience, proven by your Licence (issue to cabin crew after an exam with ENAC in Rome). Also to have a trainer qualification (known in Italy as a "Caa Paa") you have to have a special course and training (also given by ENAC which in few words is the equivalent of the British CAA) and obviously pass the course.
Ciao

[bealine]

Xenia - please don't confuse the training of CAA Licenced personnel - I'm referring to Aviation Ground Staff and support personnel!

At LGW, ALL of the US carriers believe in "Dumping" new employees straight on to check in desks to "shadow" for a few hours and then get straight into "Live" check in!

However, even 12 years flying experience does not provide a "training" qualiification - indeed many cabin crew members and check in agents do not possess sufficient patience and empathy with the "new hire" to train effectively. Indeed, my wife's experience with Dan-Air showed some of the comments made by "on-line" trainers there would have caused Dan-Air to be sued heavily if they hadn't gone to the wall! Without being taught how to train, how does the trainer recognise whether the student has registered what has been learnt - I know my British Airways trainers just "barked out" what was printed in their bulky manuals!!!

To this day, the check-in trainers are unqualified, apart from a few years experience as check-in agents. How many new people lose heart, or are fired, in the first few weeks because of a bad trainer??? No one knows ........ or cares!

[Chef]

From my experience Trainers for "most" HA's are recruited from the ranks with staff who have a lot of time under their belt in their particular field. They are sent off on courses to "teach them how to train" and spend time running along side a more experienced trainier before going solo.

As for staff joining they are not just thrown in at the deep end they are trained to a good standard then placed with shadows for on the job training. Paxboy most HA's do not regard Training as a nuisance but an important foundation.:rolleyes:

[rsoman]

Bealine
I guess we should differentiate between two issues here.
1, Are the support personnel not trained at all?
2, Are the right type of staff put into training posts?

The answer to 1 , I would think is no.Most organisations in the industry have a training set up (increasingly many go for outsourcing- not difficult when the major reservations systems as well as check in systems for example are now getting fewer and fewer and there is a lot of commonality!) and generally staff DO GET trained befiore they come on line.

As regarding 2, this is where I find the problem lies. Being a trainer yourself, I am sure you would agree that the qualities required for a trainer are unique in many ways and just because you are an experienced person nned not mean that you automatically become an excellent trainer! And this is where
we find some of the problems mentioned by you cropping up!
It is in this regards that the management who are responsible for selection/recruting of trainers have a major role to play.


Cheers
RSO

[Pax Vobiscum]

My experience is very similar to PAXboy's. In times of economic hardship (I would say recession, but Gordon Brown has assured me we're not having one), training is one of the first things to go when the bean counters are looking for ways of propping up their management bonuses. The worst culprits are often the ones with 'Investors in People' on their letterhead.

[Tiger]

I use to train SEP and Security (not BA) and we did a course ran by an outside company. Basically, train the trainer type thing. It was a weeks course and covered most things. I also line trained.

Where I do agree a formal qualification such as C&G, degrees, and teacher training are needed and important (both parents in the education world, school and university) sometimes these such people aren`t always the best to train specialised subjects. Someone with a wealth of experience usually can get the point across better than the qualification waving bod.

Assessment writting are covered in all training courses for trainers. Your wife`s experiences of Dan Air are a throw back to 1980`s?

I can not comment on ground staff training but for cabin crew training I have never experienced a poor, bad tempered trainer. I have seen and I have done myself; trainers at the end of the day helping and coaching a new employee. The CAA also do spot checks on trainers. I`ve had a CAA person in the room watching me train. Cabin Crew training at BA was excellent, and I never experienced any trainer barking from a manual, and that includes Customer Service and SEP, security, First Aid. Most of BA`s training is hands on. If you need clarification or don`t understand the trainers were aproachable everytime. "Please ask if you don`t understand" was the catch phase. They were several people who did take up the trainers offer of help and clarification on my course and I watched as the trainer explained and put the subject into a different format, or another way.

The only time I was horrifid was on a flight from Dinard and the No1 cabin crew launched into this new cabin crew member. It was an airline I don`t have high regards for.

[HZ123]

Many of the points all contributers hav made are in essence correct. Much of the current training of GA's i.e. aircraft services staff amounts to that that is mandatory with regard to JAR - OPS. There is much regard to safety as damaging a/c costs a great deal. Trainers come from a variety of backgrounds and have to undertake and pass a recognised trainers course.

This fails due in the main to the trainers, management and staff. Trainers often lose their enthuiasm, management fail to monitor the staff performance and staff 'could not care less'. Quality control is often poorly managed and the attitude seems to be that once you have had your training - just go and get on with it and providing you are not caught out, so be it.

Generally though standards are slipping as te main interest seems to be in the process. It is all like learning to drive and passing your driving test. We all learn how to do it properly but there is very little evidence of it when you go on the road.

[bealine]

By the Great Architect of the Universe, I really cannot believe that Tiger is serious about believing that a week's "Train the Trainer" course is sufficient!" Perhaps he/she has misunderstood - I'm referring to teaching and training, as opposed to "on the job" line training!

Perhaps it would help if I explained the rationale behind my original post.

An airline colleague who got a ground position with a competitor's airline, who shall not be named in case it jeopardises forthcoming legal proceedings, was asked to remain with a stretcher patient and a doctor on board a 747 whilst the crew disembarked and left the aircraft unattended. After a short while, the ambulance and high-lift arrived to transport the patient. The "high-lift" crew asked this colleague, by radio, to open the rear aircraft door when the high lift approached the required height ("When you hear us bang on the door mate!")

My colleague duly opened the door, casually observed by an inspector from CAA, DETR or some such body, who in turn reported back to the airline that someone "unqualified" had opened an aircraft door........he was duly summoned to the office and immediately sacked! (Unfortunately, as a "temp", he had no right of Union representation or appeal!)

The point is, until this incident, I and my ground colleagues with BA and others have NEVER been made aware of this requirement.

I know now, but as I came from outside the aviation industry, I was not aware of the danger of aircraft doors in the event some crew member may have forgotten to disarm the chute! As my colleague was subsequently informed.......the entire high-lift crew could have been killed!

Unfortunately - it seems ignorance of "the rules and the regs" is no defence!

:mad:

[PAXboy]

Fantastic!!!! Wow, this is one of the best I have heard.

"We didn't tell you something.
You were left in a situation with a sick person when you should not have been.
Someone else asked you to open a door to help the sick person.
You opened that door.

You are sacked."

Sounds like management 2002 style..... :mad:

[HZ123]

There should be clear instructions as to 'only trained staff operating to laid down procedures' should perform the function of opening a door. If this case that temporary staff member should not have opened the door. What if the escape shute was not disconnected and had activated it could easily kill someone (plus the disruption to the a/c shedule).

In respect of my previous entry 'Health and Safety' also applies to the operation of any function / activity on the ground in/on or around an a/c, including the clear demarkation of the a/c type.

This H & S policy is well supported at the majority of airports and at BAA ports the granting of an Airside pass state conditions and give clear guidelines on the safety factors (Airport authorities and Airlines, Handling agents can be prosecuted) . As I stated all to often the staff choose to ignore safety aspects, as do the majority of drivers in my experience ignore statutory speed limits. Once again it only comes to light when staff get caught. Human beings will inevitably take the easiest option to do a task.

The treatment of the temporay staff member seems harsh but if they were aware of the rules then they have no defence. Finally the ambulances that service aircraft at most airports have drivers that have undergone door courses.

[bealine]

HZ123 - Your theory is great and this is precisely what would have happened before Margaret Thatcher's obsessions with (a) mass privatisation and (b) cutting "red tape".

Ask Ground Staff (customer service agents) at any British airport about aircraft door procedures and very, very few would know that it was outside their remit!

I take it you represent our 2002 management style - Gawd Help Us!:mad:

[Tiger]

bealine I`m very well aware of what you are talking about, and yes I did train in the classroom SEP and Security as well as on line. Please do not patronize me. But try experience...waving your little piece of paper with City& Guilds means nothing...try B/TEC, HND....but there again does a piece of paper mean your any good at your job?

I`m sorry to hear your friends problems but because a person has C&G certificate means what?
Are you trying to say that your trainer didn`t cover somethings?
A person holding a Training certificate would not?

A few years as in 16 years is that?

Now I have helped write a Trainers Manual and a Cabin Crew manual for the 737-300....could you do that? Would a C&G enable me to do that? No but experience does and did.

I think we will disagree on this, but try not to patronize.

[Chef]

HZ123

I am amazed that you talk about "Clear Instructions" Ground staff will not touch any door at any time as this is a big no no, as for slides being armed i am sure our cabin crew would not be so imcompetent although accidents will happen.

I was always under the impression that Cabin crew will not leave an aircraft until all PAX are off as they are the only ones trained on SEP in case of an evac?

[Jet II]

Chef

I have many times seen the Crew leave the aircraft with punters still on board - usually disabled/walking wounded who are waiting for wheelchairs.

As for the original point about training - I have to say that the standard of general sfaety training around aircraft seems to be getting worse. With the increase in security after 9/11 we have many extra security guards around - these staff are usually on very low pay and the turnover is quite high. When they start they are very keen to check the ID's of everyone around the aircraft and I have lost count of the times that I have seen some young boy or girl go flying as they run behind running engines in their keeness to check some member of the ground crew (usually someone who was doning that job when the security guard was still at school - but dont get me onto security agian) luckily no-one has yet run in front of the engines!

As for opening doors, I am constantly surprised on how many staff think that they have adequate training to open aircraft doors - it seems that if you have seen someone else do it, your trained.

I have even had arguments with cabin crew over how to open doors, it is not only whether the door is armed it is about checking that it is disarmed correctly.

[bealine]

Tiger - fairly and squarely I meant no offence. However, my "piece of paper" because ]means I spent 2 years at my own expense because I cared whether or not I was doing a good job training!

Who cares about a 737 manual!!! I could buy said item from Messrs. Boeing Airplane Co of Seattle - only problem is, would my students understand it - or would they just be "barking at print!" If you're off the street and have never seen an aeroplane before, (don't laugh - I hadn't until I was twenty six!)

If I were to question you "Why have you spent 16 years training and never bothered to study for a formal qualification?" what would your response be?

Your attitude reminds me a bit of the lorry driver I met a few years ago - twenty years spent driving backwards and forwards across Europe and never progressed in French beyond "un cafe au lait s'il vous plait!"

Why do you think the majority of businesses these days insist on "A" levels as a minimum, with a quality University degree desireable, before admitting an employee even for menial tasks? I'm afraid those who talk about "paper waving" are often members of the "I wish I had done Further/Higher Education" brigade!

If you think C & G doesn't matter, no Government department or Local Authority would entertain you in a training capacity without it. Would you really like your injection administered by a nurse trained by an unqualified tutor? Why are airlines any different???

Jet II - I echo your observations. I can only assume Chef leads a very sheltered life!

[Tiger]

bealine dear person. You have truely shown your rudeness and you really have NO IDEA! And yes I have taken great offence.

Who cares about your silly little C&G when I have a B/TEC and HND and I`ll add an ABTAC as well if you like, paid for and done in my own time, Royal Instutute of Public Health ....these are higher qualifications that C&G. Now please stop telling me about education. One because I have both parents in teaching. Mother a Head Teacher and Father a University Lecturer in Biochemistry, so I think I`m well conversed in the UK education system.

I now ask you. It isn`t to pleasant have your work put down now is it? The said 737 manual from Mr Boeing would not have all the details you need to operate the aircraft in a cabin crew role. Next!

Why is it because a person does NOT hold this wonderful C&G they have to bark at the print? A formal qualification does not suddenly make a trainer great.

Oh and btw, I haven`t been training for 16 years I`m NOT that old. I have been cabin crew in various roles for that amount of time. My higher education was over a 5 year period.....:p

I have not said I disagreed with you, but pointed out to you that experience can be just as good, if the person training enjoys what they are doing and know what they are doing then the points can be put across and grasped. I have not barked as you put it in the classroom, and have prepared a trainers manual so that the sessions ran in order and all subjects are covered.

I`m sorry to see that you have/or feel you have received poor training, but this was never carried out by me, or possibly ever been in your current employer.

On this forum you don`t know who you are targeting. Clearly, I stuck my head out on something you have strong thoughts on, and while I see what you are trying to say, though your insults, you don`t know me, what I have achieved or formal qualifications. C&G are good qualifications although it changes to NVQ etc. I could run a your attitude reminds me...but whatever...blah blah

Have fun and hope your friend sorts themselves out OK.

[Xenia]

Wow!
Always have been proud of being the moderator of SLF as was amazing how well people behave in this forum!
Please remember to play the ball and not the player!
Ciao

[bealine]

Tiger - I apologise unreservedly for being rude and, yes, I do have very strong views on this particular subject! However, if you examine your original reply to my views you will detect a certain rudeness towards my viewpoint rather than the constructive comments a forum usually invites.

My original posting on this thread was due to deep concern as to the standards of trainers generally and in the airline industry in particular. I wished to obtain the viewpoint of business people (not necessarily airline staff) to ascertain whether the perception of unqualified training staff is as widespread as I believe it is.

I am asking for the issue of proposed Licensing of corporate Training to be raised in the House of Commons........not least because there are quite a number of rogue businesses out there masquerading as "Sales and Marketing Training Organisations!"

I am sorry for venting my spleen in your direction, but let's face it -
no one appreciates ridicule!

........and, yes, Tiger - I remember your DC9's with affection too!

Keep smiling!