Incident at BHX - 29 Oct 02

[Give a dog a beach]

I have just heard that a BY B763 has gone off the end of the runway at BHX.

Is everyone OK

Any news ??

[deconehead]

767-300 G-OBYB Ferry from MAN thats all I know at the moment

[Flap40]

BBC WM says it was taking of "for Scotland".

CFMU gives delays "Due accident"

Hope all are OK

Now saying that the 747(!) has got a wheel stuck in the mud. Probably just an embarrasing non-event.

[squeaker]

According to BBC Teletext, it was a MAN-BHX ferry, 9 crew no pax, and it came off a taxiway after a normal ldg. Inbounds diverted and some outbound delays it says.

[Gyr]

:rolleyes: So we're all guessing again. I have just been told it may have been a light blue thing with a new paint job? But it was probably dark and the info was second-hand?

[Ricky Butcher]

The aircraft in question went off the end of R15 at E and dug about a 5m long furrow in the mud. This part of the runway is notoriously slippery when wet, a fact well known to regular BHX visitors and ATC, so it's no surprise somebody has come a cropper, it was only a matter of time. The aircraft was eventually towed out of the mire by its main gear about 90 minutes later.

[Ghostflyer]

Everybody seems to be slagging off the airfield for its shortcomings. Yes it is short but everyday larger aircraft than 767s land there quite safely without slithering off into the mud.

So, the options are that: the aircraft had a brake or NWS failure, the runway was unusually slippery on that day and/or the aircraft vacating the runway was going too fast for the conditions. What about a note on the Chart or on the ATIS, 'Runway gets slippery when wet! Taxi slower!'. Yep I know, it sounds facetious doesn't it. Was there any pressure from ATC to expedite vacating the runway or did the crew take it into their own hands?

As far as upgrading the runway, who should pay? The operators? I guarantee you that there won't be too many airline CFOs looking to foot the bill for a runway upgrade when most flights don't seem to have a snag. If they did, we would then have to move onto the runways around the rest of the UK, the Med, in Africa and onto the sub-continent. All of a sudden BHX's runway is starting to look like it is paved with gold compared to some of the other options out there. Lets get it into perspective!

Ghost:)

[Ricky Butcher]

The BHX ATIS rarely reports 'slippery when wet', but being asked to 'expedite vacating', even when the runway is wet, is a common occurence when R15 is in use. Ghost also overlooks the possibility that an empty 767 simply did not have the necessary purchase on the nosewheel to take the corner at normal speeds. I think BHX management should pay for improvements, not just to the runway ends but also to the disintegrating taxiways, particularly around the R24/D/E junction, which all users (pilots and ATC) acknowledge are in an apalling state. I can't think of an major European airport in such bad condition apart from Frankfurt, but their runways are twice as long.

[411A]

And...just WHAT is wrong with Frankfurt?:rolleyes: ;)

[outofsynch]

lol........here we go............

[Bigpants]

The comments by BIK and others about BHX are spot on, the airport should have spent money on improving the paved surfaces years ago. Unfortunately, like "Railtrack" they appear to be more keen on spending money upgrading the retail side of the terminal.

I landed on RW15 about 10 minutes before the 767 incident, the runway was wet, the area around the turn off was as usual slippery and there was once again pressure to vacate as we had one aircraft lined up ready to roll and another at 2-3 miles. Having also flown the 767 I can appreciate how easy it would be if light for the nosewheel to bounce and skip over that last 100m of rough concrete.

In mitigation to all concerned the airport response and that of the crew was very good. The emergency vehicles were on the scene promptly, communication was effective and to drag a 767 back onto the runway as quickly as they did was impressive. No clue as to why it occured so please don't hang the flight crew just yet I am sure the management will be only too keen to jump on the bandwaggon shortly.
Regards BP

[LYKA]

problem comes when a message "runway slippery when wet" is indicated that slippery inferes a MU reading of .05 ( someone correct me if I'm wrong!) therefore if the runway is wet do you plan using slippery runway data? no of course not because it is very likely that the braking action is considerably better than that, so a careful wording should be used because for some guy's this kind of message would stop inbound operations. Doesn't take qway from the fact that more info should be posted on the ATIS though.

[411A]

Hmm, Frankfurt runways "dreadful", suspect not as bad as, say Cairo.

Have departed on 18 in FRA on many occasions, never noticed it being particularly rough....maybe it's a stifflegged Airboos thing:rolleyes: ;)

[Cyrano]

I understand there's a plan to build that RET (or a "semi-RET") at BHX a year from now. At least there are proposals to close the airfield 2200-0600LT for a significant chunk of the W03 season to allow this work to go on. (Meanwhile it will be closing 2200-0600LT for nine nights this November for runway resurfacing work - no, I don't know which bit is being resurfaced.)

[Ninjaman]

Bik 116.8

A beautifully constructed well researched discussion as usual with one small failing.

Birmingham doesn't have a runway 08! Or at least it didn't when i was there yesterday.

[Ricky Butcher]

Oh picky picky! You know he meant 06!

[sky9]

Heavy rain, poorly maintained runway surface; my money is on low speed aquaplaning as the likely problem. The southern end of the runway is a patchwork of broken and repaired concrete. I presume that somebody did some braking coefficient checks after the incident; but then possibly not. Why does it take an incident like this to get something done?

[Shuttleworth]

I agree with BP and others who have criticised the runway.
It's unbelievably slippery - like ice at times . If you are not a local - you would not be aware.
BKB made a good point about the ATCO's ... they are very professional - but are put under ridiculous pressure to increase movements.
Safety suffers...Money first ... Makes me cross!

[unwiseowl]

All taxiways to the East of 15/33 are less than 20 years old. Some one was a bit short-sighted were they not

[411A]

Have landed several times (in the rain) at BHX with TriStar equipment, and yes, it is indeed very slippery, expecially at the southern end.

For the younger guys (especially younger Commanders) listen, and listen good---

Do NOT EVER allow ATC to rush you exiting the active runway, no matter what.

The company fleet Captain will only look at you and say....there is the door, go work for someone else, union or no union.

And....good luck finding another position. Accidents/incidents on you record knocks your career in the toilet.

[kinsman]

Best whishes to the crew. Good luck guys hope the company treat you fairly.

There but for the grace of God .................

[LGW Vulture]

I can just imagine Fleet Captains interviewing their "young commanders" for ignoring ATC at BHX:

"I ignored the instructions cos I remember wiley ole 411A's comments numerous years ago!

Come on 411A, Tristar equipment? Is your memory adeqautely equipped to remember such times??

p.s. Mmmm. Tristars....you could get a job with NDR.....if you're not careful!!!!

[Stall Inducer]

I have to admit the closest I've ever come to going off the end of a rwy is at BHX in a 146. Captains landing spot on in the right place right speed etc etc, and asked to keep the speed up to vacate off Rwy15. VERY slippery indeed in the wet at that end and the antiskid was doing it's stuff. Could have been very embarrasing. Beware, I for one now slow down in good time at the end of 15. Surprised it hasn't happend before.

[411A]

Well then LGWVulture assuming, (for the point of discussion) that you really are a Commander (yeah I know, a stretch), who is in charge of the aeroplane assigned to and signed for by you...you OR the ATC controller?

If you don't know, you certainly have no business at the pointy end.

[L337]

411A is correct.

If ATC want you off the runway, and you are not happy with the situation, You go at your own pace. Simple as that.

More than that, every Chief Pilot, and Fleet Captain I have ever worked for would back that position up.

13 years based at BHX, and the far end of 15 is nasty when wet. ATC know it, and usually give you room to slowly make the exit. If the guy behind me has to go-around, well bad luck. Better that than going off the end. Then the Fleet Captain is going to give me a hard time.

L337.

[Capt. Horrendous]

I operate into BHX most days, and agree with most comments about the slippery nature of the 15 stopend. Trying to do the right thing and keep runway occupancy down to a minimum does lead to faster than normal taxispeeds, turning off at the end of 15 at anything other than a crawl when it's wet, can leave you feeling somewhat out of control.

I would advise anyone who has had an experience where their heart has been in their mouth wondering if they are actually going to be able to make that left turn at the end, to file an ASR and tick the MOR box (assuming that your reporting forms are the same as ours). A few reports in the CAA's in trays will probably get something done about it ( if there is nothing in the pipeline already).

They are impressive furrows in the grass there, I must say !!.

[Jacksman]

Without a doupt this incident will have the yellow-jacketed, Nanny state, job's worths of Birminghams management team running round yelling into walkie takies and closing taxyway's and about a third of the main r/w!

[Smokie]

Just as well we are able to land short in our quadra puff and exit up 24.
Provided ATC let us of course.

The BHX Icerink should be relocated to the NEC/NIA and no longer remain at the threshold of 33.:(

[major1]

And...just WHAT is wrong with Frankfurt?


Hey 411,
The bomb damage had obviously just been repaired when you went to Frankfurt !!
But its now wearing out!

[OZZY AIRBORNE]

Its the worst possible combination of a light aircraft and slippery runway, with plenty of residual thrust on those big motors.
I remember donkeys years ago in Newcastle, when a B727 positioning empty back to Manchester, slid off the contaminated taxiway. Red faces all around particularly when the same crew and aircraft repeated the entire scenario the following day, with exactly the same result. The airport director was pulling his hair out and jumping up and down, despite the fact that if they had cleared the rutted ice properly, it wouldn't have happened in the first place. The poor old training captain was dispatched to LGW for a spanking.

[hotnhi]

This thread seams to be predominately concerned with taxiing "expeditiously".
The concrete at the end of 15 at BHX is SO slippery when wet that EVEN at a WALKING PACE, control of the aircraft can be lost. I know, it happened to me, only max reverse stopped us sliding onto the grass....just, and I mean just.
We filed an ASR and thats the last I heard of it.
It is unacceptable that Birminghams Airport Authorities rely on local knowledge to stop accidents happening. The runway is unsafe and they should tell everyone that it is, until they spend the money to make it safe.
How about "Very Slippery When Wet" being promulgated by NOTAM until it is promulgated on the airfields charts?
ps Don't tell anyone, it's a secret.

[beamer]

Can only concur with those who have sympathy with the 767 crew who were not 'BHX regulars' and would not have been aware of the slippy concrete bit ( very technical language I know).

BHX has become a shambles over the last couple of years - nice
big piers for Emirates that re-created another cul-de-sac which
further delays push-backs and arrivals on stand ! Just how much
time and money is wasted tugging BA/Maersk aircraft around the
airfield every night ? Buses to de-plane pax which are adjacent
to the baggage reclaim area - yes I know its all to do with inbound and outbound pax not mixing but then again that does not appear to be a consideration at GLA/DUB/LGW to name but three.

So lets be both honest and radical.

1. Second runway - no chance.

2. New airport at Rugby - ditto.

3. Bin GA/Freight - off to Coventry please.

4. New low-cost terminal on old terminal site - yes Ryanair/Travel Lite - thats you.

5. RET for 15 if physically possible.

6. Shoot that bloody heron which sits just off the 15 threshold.

7. Use 06/24 for something useful - have'nt seen anything bigger
than a light single use it for ages.

8. Either get the monorail working or bin it.

9. Build a staff bus shelter for those who use the main terminal.

10. Oh yes more celebrities for the Alpha sale - why stop at Lulu - why not John Leslie/ Angus Deayton/ Graham Taylor/ Doug Ellis -
............................................................ ............................

[RealFish]

This thread has now made it onto the front page of the 'Sunday Mercury', a local down-market Sunday tabloid ( I buy it for the football) with the huge headline'

'PILOT WARNS OF BRUM AIRPORT DISASTER'

(alongside a teaser, 'Corrie star offered me sex')

In addition to the contents of the sawn-off web version, below, the two page expose goes on to quote extensively from postings on this site and from a PALPA spokesman who says that thay will ask their technical staff 'to examine any problems on Monday...We take these reports extremely seriously and we will be looking into them straight away.'

A BHX spokesman declined to comment except to say that, 'We fully comply with all CAA requirements.

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12334658&method=full&siteid=50002

[Panman]

What does the executive jet "exploding" on takeoff have to do with the price of fish? That paragraph really has nothing to do with the rest of the "factual" report.

I didn't know ice on the wings caused aircraft to explode on takeoff!! :eek: I'll stick to flying during the summer then.

[DistantRumble]

For those of you unfamiliar with BHX ...

here's an idea of what they're talking about ...


http://www.airliners.net/open.file/292441/M/

[sky9]

I understand that the AAIB have found that full brakes were applied however there was a reduction in retardation. i.e. runway slippery when wet.
I presume that they will now do something like resurface with tarmacadam &/or grove it.

[hotnhi]

At last. Notam:

R/W15-last 100m slippery when wet.

Well done BHX management, its only taken a near disaster plus countless weeks before you've admitted you've got a problem. Now get it Tarmaced.