Overhead join in a busy circuit

[Mak]

Hi all,

I did my QXC two w/e ago. I have some doubts about how I dealt with the circuit at Gloucestershire. I though maybe you could explain what I should have done.

I followed instructions to do a standard overhead join and was instructed to advise when crossing the rwy after descending. Did that and was told I was no 4. As I approached downwind there was one guy turning into downwind (no. 3) and another turning to base (no 2) and I used these to judge where downwind was (Jeppsens doesn't say anything about where the circuit pattern is flown) and informed ATC I was turning downwind. I was then informed I was no.3 now and the other guy on downwind was told he had become no.4. I gather from the ATCO's attitude I had done something wrong which fits with the usual priority rule. But to join behind 3 I'd have to go almost all the way to base leg which doesn't make much sense.

Question is what should I have done?

Thanks.

Mak

[pulse1]

Mak,

As it was your QXC, presumably ATC had to sign your form. What assessment did you get?

I visited there a few months ago, on a similarly busy day, and got the impression that they were used to shuffling people about as they joined downwind. In my case they made me No 2 to a C172 and asked me if I had visual on it. The only C172 I could see was miles outside the normal downwind position. Sensing my hesitation before confirming visual, he then proceeded to give the C172 a right b*ll*cking for being outside the ATZ.

I got the distinct inpression that, if they were not happy, they would tell you.

P1

[Mak]

They filled the form in ops without checking with the tower and gave me a "satisfactory" on both accounts. Doesn't sound impressive but I got the impression it was the standard assesment. Then again not even I was terribly impressed by my flying that day.

[Lawyerboy]

I shouldn't worry about a 'satisfactory' rating; I got satisfactory from both my landaways with the explanation that only a CFI or someone from ATC can put anything else (such as 'good' or 'lousy').

[FWA NATCA]

Mak,

You may not have done anything wrong, when in doubt ask who you are following (type acft, and if necessary color). If you are still in doubt ask ATC to call your turn to cross wind, down wind, or base and to point out who you are following again.

I'm a controller in the US, so when I have multiple acft in the pattern and someone else joins the fray, I will say that you are number X following the yellow and white C172 and its' position in the pattern, or what ever the acft is, advise when you see your traffic (I've worked pattern traffic with as many as 12 acft in the pattern). If a don't get a I got my traffic I'm following, soon enough I may either point it out again or I'll say I'll call your turns, depending on what I feel is necessary to keep the operation safe.

Mike

[bookworm]

Question is what should I have done?

Two things:

1) Make sure you know who you're following and where they are. If you are unsure, ask. If you are assigned no. 4, you must follow no. 3. If you can't easily arrange your flight to do that, tell ATC.

2) Follow the one you're meant to be following!

Mix-ups of the sort you describe do happen in the circuit -- it can be difficult to judge distances and speeds, even for ATC. In my experience, the higher the calibre of the other pilots involved, the more tolerant and accommodating they are.

[matspart3]

Mak
Bookworm is spot on..but as I'm SATCO there, I can probably shed some more light...

You were asked to report 'crosswind' because the circuit was busy. That would give the ATCO the chance to assess your progress against the other circuit traffic and give you your number in sequence....(you'd normally be told to report downwind and told how many others were in the circuit.)

In this instance, given that you were 'number 4' I suspect you were supposed to follow the guy turning downwind. By failing to do so, you 'became no. 3'....which might explain the ATCO's irritation...you hadn't complied with his/her plan and created some extra workload/RT calls. Obviously your little 'faux pas' didn't warrant a 'FAIL' on your QXC form so can't have been adjudged as too serious.

At Gloucestershire, 'Satisfactory' is the usual comment that we put on QXC forms...although I have had cause to issue 'Inadequate' for airmanship and 'Without Incident' for landings before. There's no guidance provided for ATCO's to decide what constitutes 'Good' airmanship or landing, so whatever we put will be somewhat subjective.
The Assistant in the Briefing Room does, however, check with ATC before signing the form....it's normally 'phoned across with your inbound details after your landing...that's why the invoice is also ready when you reach the Terminal! We normally have 'booking in' details for Qualifiers so will be watching!

My ATCO's often have to intervene to keep the sequence sensible and safe, as was the case in pulse1's visit. This in itself is not a huge problem as we have an ATM to help us and enough local knowledge to know which instructors/pilots/aircraft can be relied upon to 'Make a short approach' if required, but I think the root cause is more fundamental.

Circuit size/discipline is a perennial problem, that was raised again briefly at the Flight Safety Meeting that we held today. There are many different types, speeds and wildly varying levels of ability in our circuit on a regular basis. Subsequently, the problem will never be solved entirely....but there's no excuse for some of the V bomber circuits we see!
As an ATCO, I find it frustrating to see the number 1 aircraft in the circuit on a 2 mile final doing 65KT, when the three following are having to extend downwind. I have often had 3 or more aircraft supposedly 'in the circuit' but actually outside the ATZ!!
As a pilot, I get scared when I'm at 1000' over Cheltenham High Street on a Saturday afternoon!

Our local flying Code of Practice does give ATCO's the option of sending around traffic which is extending the circuit unecessarily. This does happen but, all too often, the last thing you need when it's that busy is someone else getting in the way as they bimble off towards the deadside to rejoin.

As for 'Bo!!ocking' on the RT, that's not something I condone or consider acceptable....questions will be asked!! That said, we've been extremely busy these last few months (20 000 movements since the beginning of August) and tempers can get frayed. I've had my moments when my patience has been pushed just too far but I do try to contain my shouting and swearing until I've stopped transmitting!!!

Finally, I hope you were impressed by what you saw at Gloucestershire Airport and that you'll come back! There aren't too many GA friendly places around these days with 3 licensed, hard runways and full ATC....and I can personally recommend the all day breakfast in the new Aviator restaurant, 100 yds from the Terminal entrance.

PS Buy some fuel next time and we'll even give you a discount landing fee....

PPS We'll have a grass runway by next Spring too...possible venue for a Pprune Fly In next summer??

[pulse1]

MP3,

I have replied to your e mail. I am afraid that my use of the expression "right bo!!ocking" was a bit too strong to describe the polite and firm telling off that the offending C172 pilot received. This was in no way intended to imply any criticism of ATC who I thought, on that very busy day, were extremely good. It was my first visit to Gloucester and the overall helpfulness from everyone from ATC, Operations and fuel pumps puts it amongst my favourite places to visit.

P1

[Mak]

matspart3,

Thanks for the comments. Very helpful. As pulse1 said of his experience I didn't get any uncalled for comments on the RT either. I simply realised from the tone that I had messed up somewhere.

Mak

[matspart3]

Thanks chaps
Pleased to hear you've departed with a favourable impression of what we do and how we do it. ....hopefully you'll be back soon.

Your comments will be passed on to the ATC team.
We rarely get any feedback on the service we provide so all comments, good and bad are welcomed.

[28thJuly2001]

Matspart3,
I had a 'good' and 'good' report from Gloucester so I must have done something right :D
Would visit more often but the landing fee is a little steep. How much is it now? I think it was around £15 last year.
As soon as I see the next free landing token in Flyer you can be sure I will bumble into your circuit during the month and sample the 'All Day Breakfast'.

28th,,

[matspart3]

Buy some fuel and it's only £11.75!