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tony draper
29th Oct 2002, 08:27
Them bloody frenchies are joking int they.:mad: :mad: :mad:

AerBabe
29th Oct 2002, 08:41
I'm emigratin' if it ever happens. :mad:
(Of course, not to the USA ;) )

tony draper
29th Oct 2002, 09:11
We are going to secede from the union, anybody else wanna join the confederate States of N/E England,? nice grey uniform and more frenchmen to shoot than yer could shake a stick at.:rolleyes:

OneWorld22
29th Oct 2002, 10:14
Who'll be the Abe Lincoln of the EU Drapes? Prodi? Chirac? Schroeder?

Maybe you can become Europes Robert E Lee?!!

Long live the Union!

steamchicken
29th Oct 2002, 13:03
Or possibly "United Europe", the European Community, or the plain old European Union, according to the 4 optional names Giscard's proposal includes....anyway, the document is not much more than a set of headings for discussion, so you can all go back to writing letters about Imperial measurements to your local paper!

SET 18
29th Oct 2002, 13:23
Ah, Mr Streamchicken ,yet again you condascend to insult the many milions of people who have grave reservations about the way the EU of the regions is heading.

If the socialist way of insulting any opposition in order to suppress it wasn't so pathetic it would be worrying. Even your signature helps all of us to know where you think your moral standpoint is.

Feneris
29th Oct 2002, 13:34
Yep, steamchicken has learnt well off New Labour. Go for the character assination first, it's quicker, cheaper and more effective. Failing that try dismissing the subject out of hand as ludicrous. If you do have to admit it, bury it through clever timing with some other worse news.

F

GustyOrange
29th Oct 2002, 13:47
Steamchicken,

I'm much more worried about UK monetary and fiscal policy being conducted from Frankfurt and Brussels respectively.

It dosen't appear to bother some others so much unfortunately.

Gusty

:mad: :mad: :mad:

tony draper
29th Oct 2002, 14:01
How can we take advice on names seriously for some french bloke with a big daft girly name like Valery.:rolleyes:

steamchicken
29th Oct 2002, 14:40
well, I've just read the document...and you'll love it, especially article 46 on page 16 which "will establish procedures for the voluntary withdrawal of a member state"! It is indeed not much more than a list of paragraph headings to put the actual content in when they've decided on it.

link to the draft (http://european-convention.eu.int/docs/sessPlen/00369.en2.PDF)

PS, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, I just get bored of Eurosceptics sometimes....

tony draper
29th Oct 2002, 14:48
Please !!please!!, don't get me started on the thrice cursed feckin EU, THE RED MIST,, THE RED MIST,,;)

ORAC
29th Oct 2002, 14:59
Yeah, right; and "The South Will Rise Again".

There's good novel predicated on a "civil war" when the UK tries to secede from a United Europe, based on exactly the sort of guarantee as above, the majority of the other member states disagreeing with their right to do so. It's based closely on the events of the American civil war; the people, politics, arguments over state and federal rights etc. Just can't remember the name of it.

Back in the cellar Tony, play with the pretty knives, see how they glisten in the lamplight..... :D

jonathang
29th Oct 2002, 15:01
Think of the prospects of having a Mr Bush in charge :o

flapsforty
29th Oct 2002, 15:12
Thanks for the link steamchicken. Looks like a good effort was made to start cleaning up the hodge podge of treaties that now govern the running of the EU.
Nice clear framework, should improve transparency and accountability. (is there such a word?)

Kudos for Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. :)

How long it will take member states to fil out the bare bones of this one is anybody's guess..........
Not easy with so many europhobes around! ;)
Oh and Drapes, you could start by buying yerself a pick-up truck and a confederate flag mate. :D

BahrainLad
29th Oct 2002, 15:13
GustyOrange,

You have reasons to be worried. But they are not the reasons you think.

The UK economy is already heavily influenced by outside forces (Soros anyone?). Currently we have no influence over ECB decisions that profoundly affect our economic health, trade etc.

However, if we joined the Euro, guess what? We'd have influence over the ECB through 'a seat on the board'. So, by pooling sovereignty, we actually come out with increased influence on our own affairs.....what subsidiarity is all about!



(....but the Daily Mail won't tell you that......)

CR2
29th Oct 2002, 15:13
EUs just a bloody scam the French use ter subsidize their farmers. Fill in the chunnel.

tony draper
29th Oct 2002, 15:17
Just think, if the Americans agrees to make us the 51st state, 60.000.000 Americans sitting 22 miles from france, oh boy would that p!ss em off. :rolleyes:

Capt. Amazing
29th Oct 2002, 17:00
Could you imagine the election campaigns? It would be fascinating to examine the individual planks of each candidate’s platform. I wonder if each individual “States” governor will identify with his or her American counterparts?

We would need a new song for the President of the United States of Europe. After the discussions over the Euro that should be an easy one to solve.
:D

SET 18
29th Oct 2002, 18:07
Bahrain Lad, you said:

"The UK economy is already heavily influenced by outside forces (Soros anyone?). Currently we have no influence over ECB decisions that profoundly affect our economic health, trade etc. "

Now why do you think that that statement justifies us giving up our right to govern our own economy and taxes in order to be a part of the Euro?

Surely you concede that we trade with all manner of Nations around the world. We TRADE with them. This means that we buy and sell things from and to them. It is a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Yuo don't seem to be saying that we should try and align ourselves to the US$, why not? Or perhaps the Japanese Yen. Pick any one of the currencies around the world, the argument is the same.

We are not part of those currencies because we have no immediate interset in being governed by that particular country's economic situation. What's the difference with the EUro?

Are we not a big enough and independent enough country to govern ourselves? ( I won't mention the 4th largest economy bit here)

I would say that we are.

It is not that we don't need other countries in order to prosper. We do. It's just that I happen to think that we should be trading with all of them, not just 15 or 20 others. This would, without too much doubt, be to the detriment of tour trading relationship with all the others; especially the biggets of them all, the US.

flapsforty
29th Oct 2002, 19:15
yesterday, the head of the Norwegian Bureau of Statistics stirred up a bit of trouble here.............. The dastardly man proposes that the country dumps its beloved "krone" and switches to €€€€€ :eek: (mind, Norway is not a member of the EU!)
According to him, our krone is too strong and getting stronger still which endangers Norwegian industry and our way of life here. (highest standard of living in the worl acc to the UN, but I guess none of them ever spent a winter here or went foodshopping for anything more adventurous tham mince and cabbage :rolleyes: )
Anyway, according to this very smart gent, adopting the € would solve all problems forthwith; nice and stable, big trading pool, not too strong.

Strange, non member wanting to join, and a long standing member trying to avoid it like the plague..............

ORAC
29th Oct 2002, 19:41
There seems to be a funny notion that going into the Euro will, somehow, solve the problems of a strong currency. Sorry, you go in at the exchange rate you have, there's no magical devaluation. What does happen is that you subsequently lose the ability to alter that rate.

GustyOrange
29th Oct 2002, 21:43
Bahrain Lad,

I take my hat off to Mr Soros for his brilliant exploitation of the stupidity of the ERM/Euro/EU.

For an insight into the genius involved may I suggest you read The Alchemy of Finance, written by the above.

I will refrain from commenting on your understanding of global economics.

Gusty

ps I don't read the tabloids.

BahrainLad
29th Oct 2002, 23:58
Yuo don't seem to be saying that we should try and align ourselves to the US$, why not? Or perhaps the Japanese Yen. Pick any one of the currencies around the world, the argument is the same.

No, it isn't. In the most condescending way possible - "it's all about volumes, dear boy." :) The UK does 54% of its external trade with the other EU countries........compared to 15% with the US.......http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html#Econ

Are we not a big enough and independent enough country to govern ourselves? ( I won't mention the 4th largest economy bit here)

Oh please do mention the bit about the 4th largest economy in the world.....but make sure you mention that this is becuase of, rather than in spite of, Britain's membership of the EU.




PS....I've used the CIA factbook for some facts. Does anyone else notice that on http://www.cia.gov there is a very prominent link to "The George Bush Centre for Intelligence"?

:confused: :confused:

Loony_Pilot
30th Oct 2002, 01:12
what about

UNION OF STUPID SOCIALIST REPUBLICS, or USSR for short...

any takers?

Loony

paulc
30th Oct 2002, 07:06
Ok - we have 54% of our trade with other EU countries - that still leaves 46% with the rest of the world - a good balance which needs to be maintained. The UK cannot risk putting all its eggs (trade) in one basket (EU)

The UK is in a strong position at the moment economically, compared to other european nations - why throw that away by joining an, as yet unproven currency.

The EU also needs to be seen to be honest and fair - the deal between France and Germany over the CAP reforms will only reinforce the view that the EU is being created for the benefit of France and Germany with the rest of us being ignored.

Suggs
30th Oct 2002, 08:40
Lads

On the issuse of pensions here, a rather hot topic in any flight deck, it is worth remembering that Germany's pension fund is undervalued by 150% of GDP. Not to mention the rest of em.
We may have our problems on the issue, but they're nothing compared to what Europes got.

Despite the Political, social, and economic disadvantages of joining the Euro this single event on its own, kills the pro-arguments dead.

Fck it, lets just pull out.

zed3
30th Oct 2002, 17:21
Lads.....Having spent almost 33 years in the now USSE and with hopefully four more to go , I just wish that common sense will prevail in that the UK votes NO to the Euro . This whole Europe business is like the politics here .....back room deals , private agreements , manipulation and all the rest ......oh yes and millions of whatever money "lost" or poured down the drain in failed projects . Hardly any common sense or logic to be seen! I will not see it but I predict that the whole pack of cards will fall down within fifty or so years .....and then what?

tony draper
30th Oct 2002, 17:40
Oh my god , do we have to wait fifty feckin years.:mad: