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Wino
26th Oct 2002, 04:38
Russian's retake the theater. Just breaking news now.

Didn't get all the hostages out unscathed, but good on em for doing their best. Remember, even at Entebbe a hostage or two were lost.

Hopefully, all the terrorists are dead or being tortured before they die.:mad: :mad: :mad:

Wino

gofer
26th Oct 2002, 05:19
Partially agree, in that ANY use of force is defeat.

Look @ it another way though, NJ is obviously NOT a state oppressed by a central government (DC ?). Try the lateral mental shift and just imagine that it were (well actually it is but because the population don't see it as that its OK).....

Would you NOW support the defenders who want to return your state to an "unoccupied" status.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Majority wins in the "free world" :o
Now if the majority is mad, you the sane.... are crazy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:(

Boss Raptor
26th Oct 2002, 08:02
Anybody who is prepared to carry out a terrorists act in such a fashion should be exterminated lke the vermin they are...be nice if they were made to suffer as well...MOSAD had the right idea...

Loki
26th Oct 2002, 09:53
Congratulations to the Russian Special Forces!

Sadly, not 100% but pretty good result considering the situation.

steamchicken
26th Oct 2002, 14:21
Operation seems to get progressively less great as the day wears on, first reports said 20 hostages dead, then came the first mention of "gas" (which I assumed meant the Spetznaz had teargassed the building), then references to "sedating" or "debilitating" gas. Still, whatever it takes, smart move etc.

Then a hospital doc is quoted as having 40+ hostages suffering from poisoning with an unidentified gas - and they won't tell him what the gas was! And then the number of dead hostages jumps from 20 to 67, not counting the 40 in the hospital. The Deputy Interior Minister appears on national television and announces that most of them "died of heart attacks". Believe that if you want to! After all, however you die your heart stops....sounds very sinister and very Soviet and very much like that woman being injected with knockout juice on live television after the Kursk sank.

GustyOrange
26th Oct 2002, 14:24
Unfortunately, I don't think they had any other option once the terrorist filth started killing the hostages.

I really hope the Russians find the two that have apparently escaped.

Gusty

Kalium Chloride
26th Oct 2002, 17:10
Looks like the collateral damage is up to 90 now. Have to admire the Russians for having the balls to end it, but what a ghastly situation.

tony draper
26th Oct 2002, 17:26
Strange, the news service says a sleeping gas was used in the rescue op, I though a fast spreading fast acting sleeping gas was still science fiction reserved for the Man from Uncle and the like.
This could be of course the media adding two and two and reaching six, as per usual.
Yes well done Ivan, the Russians were between a rock and a hard place here, concidering the situation, I think they did the right thing.

flower
26th Oct 2002, 17:48
Waking up this morning to the news that the majority of hostages had been released was great, I had expected to hear that the terrorists had started to execute the hostages.

The loss of life of the innocents is tragic, however 800 deaths would have been far more catastrophic than the 90 or so (no definitive figures yet). My thoughts go out to the families of the victims.

I can not agree with the earlier statement of wishing the terrorists be tortured. The difference between the civilised and the terrorist is that we should not inflict such atrocities. To-do so places us in the same realm as them.

Boss Raptor
26th Oct 2002, 18:38
Unfortunately as I have mentioned before after the Ukraine airshow crash there is little provision for the dependants of those killed and many will face real hardship...on the plus side Russian families stick together and I am sure there will be a national collection/ fund for those affected...

All the more reason that the trial and execution of those surviving terrorists will no doubt be much awaited in russia...especially by those families concerned...

brockenspectre
26th Oct 2002, 18:52
Spetznaz (or OMON) don't have a great record at getting victims/hostages out .. I think the conclusion of this hostage-taking is a tragic waste of life. "Oh dear, we lost 10%" is NOT acceptable in 2002 in the civilised world.

There was word on the newswires that Brit special forces were being invited, hopefully some US SpecWar types were there too (they are some of the best in the biz, too)... but seems to me like someone jumped the gun here. 10% loss of civilians is not a good number ...

:(

tony draper
26th Oct 2002, 18:57
I think offing them on the spot is the more desirable option, like the Iranian Embassy Lot, no trial and no terrorist prisoners to trigger other hostage taking and highjack situations to demand their release like we had in the seventies.
Scum like that should be declared outlaws in the old sense of the word, outside the protection of the law, not entitled to a trial or a defence because there is no defence for their actions.
Shoot the filth on the spot.

28thJuly2001
26th Oct 2002, 20:53
I think the Russians did an excellent job considering there were so many terrorists, I for one thought the building was going to be blown to bits with the loss of everyone, so good on them for rescuing so many in what was an awful situation.
As for 'someone jumping the gun', nobody here knows how bad it got and what the terrorists were going to do next.
So what do you think the US and UK special forces would have done? Any answers?
We are talking 800+ hostages and 50+ terroists so if they had stormed the building without using 'gas' in the air conditioning it would have been a far worse bloodbath.
Credit where credits due.

28th,,

Boss Raptor
27th Oct 2002, 15:01
May God go with those who lost their lives...

I am sure the people of Russia and the world are with them...what choice was there...

As for the terrorists may they rot in hell..

Wino
27th Oct 2002, 15:06
Gofer,

Not by attacking anything other than a military target. Just because something is easy does not make it right. Same problem I have with other terrorist groups.

Cheers
Wino

jonathang
27th Oct 2002, 15:18
Congrats to the Russian Forces,

Terrible about the deaths, however could have ended in massacre.

brockenspectre
28th Oct 2002, 07:57
I still think they jumped the gun and now I bet we'll find that they used the wrong kind of gas or the right kind of gas in wrong "dose" ... grrrrrrrrrrr

Stupid waste of life. OMON should have read Tom Clancy ... (or was it Robert Ludlum) who wrote about terrorists taking over a university lecture hall....

Prayers for all who needlessly lost innocent family members...

:(

Vox
28th Oct 2002, 08:11
jonathang, it did end in a massacre.:( :(

sprocket
28th Oct 2002, 08:38
I sad tactic? .... Letting the 'rescuers' do the killing for you.

tony draper
28th Oct 2002, 09:20
A few people are comparing this to the Embassy seige in London and the outcome of that operation, the terrorists in the Embassy seige where armed only with hand guns and were small in number.
Fifty fanatics armed with assault weapons and its acompletely different situation.
Get real people, this is the real world not Clancy or Hollywood.
I doubt very much if the SAS or any other organisation could have done any better.

Vox
28th Oct 2002, 11:18
Thatís right tony dÖget real.

So how about waiting until we are in possession of all the facts before we pat the Russians on the back and say well done. We donít know that it was well done. They seem to be a bit tight lipped about the gas used and the fact that sky reported that of all the fatalities, only two hostages were killed by the rebels would seem indicate that maybe they jumped the gun.

I donít know the facts so Iíll reserve judgement. What I do know is that just because the media say they are Special Forces, doesnít make it fact.

I do know that IMHO, the death toll was too high. It may have been worse if they had waited. But thatís the point, we donít know.

If they were between a rock and a hard place I would imagine that the Russian Government would be a bit more forthcoming with the facts than they are at the present.

brockenspectre
28th Oct 2002, 12:28
caught a snippet on a news station that said the gas used was meant to be some form of anaesthetic? I know the authorities have yet to officially pronounce on what was used but ... if the intention was to put everyone to sleep then it would have been extremely difficult to judge the relevant amount of sleeping agent - after so many days and the range of ages/health of all concerned... :(

Hope the truth does come out. Any chance to learn from what must be an appalling reality for the OMON troops on the ground who did their best under direction from others who, frankly, did not do their best, will mean that all who died didn't do so totally in vain.

P.S. we probably will never know if SpecWar types from any other countries were involved .. if they were then there are BIG lessons to be learned here. If they were not, then I would hope OMON will have the humility to set in place some exchange-training programs with those nations that are considered top-of-the-range at such matters.

pigboat
28th Oct 2002, 16:03
Should have sent over a team of Canadian negociators. We would have done it right and bored them to death.

It does appear that the medical authorities weren't set up for gas victims, but rather for gunshot trauma. Add to that, the military aren't saying exactly what kind of gas, and aren't telling what the antidote is.
There was an interview with a Canadian hostage on a radio program this AM, and he said he was hallucinating when the effects began to wear off.
Good on the Russkis though. You can monday morning quarterback all you want, but it would have been a helluva lot worse if they'd done nothing.

Grim Reaper 14
28th Oct 2002, 16:18
Bottom line, it was a 5hitty situation, made worse by an (allegedly) 5hitty rescue plan. Only one hostage shot dead - fantastic. 119 other hostages killed by the rescuers 'inadvertently' is a disgrace and a shambles. Worse than Munich '72. I can only hope that the lessons are learned in a hurry, and (selfishly) be thankful that I had no friends involved in the final carnage.

MarkD
28th Oct 2002, 19:32
Better owt than nowt. The serious nos. of suicide bombers meant nowt was a serious possibility.

As for the Chechens - f*ck em.

tony draper
28th Oct 2002, 20:14
Just been a interesting snippet on here, apparently the powers that be are very very interested in this gas.
According to a expert spokesman we have nothing as effective in the west, perhaps this explains the Russian reluctance to give out information.
Pardon my cynicism here but I would imagine our various governments would be very interested in something that can render a large crowd of people harmless, even with a ten or fifteen percent death rate.

rob_frost
28th Oct 2002, 20:33
Appartently it was some form of cold war nerve gas.

More details here (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/10/28/1035683359272.html)

Send Clowns
28th Oct 2002, 22:58
I'd expect more from you lot than some of the wild accusations here - it's like the news merdia! (A genuine typo, I left in cos I thought appropriate in Franglais :D )

We do not know what happened, may never know due to the secrecy of Russia. However, it looks like some 700 people or so may survive, out of more than 800 hostages and unknown numbers of spetznats troopers. Had the explosives in the building been triggered it is possible few would have made it out. That seemed obvious even before Today on Radio 4 interviewed a former SAS trooper (SAS are the second best in the world at this kind of operation) who came cautiously to a similar conclusion.

It is entirely possible that the only other option was to give in, inviting more terrorist violence which is not advisible, or let every hostage die. I know I was not alone in expecting not to see those people emerge alive.

Rob_Frost

The story you link to was disputed by an ex-Porton Down expert who pointed out that BZ, the gas it suggests, takes up to an hour to act. If it was BZ then it must have been mixed or altered in some way. This shows that it is all guesswork for now!

OneWorld22
29th Oct 2002, 07:58
Looks like we have a leader who has in his posession vast quantities of "Weapons Of Mass Destruction" and is not afraid to use them on his own people! Will we have proposed UN resolutions put upon Russia??!!;)

What's the difference between Kurds and Chechens?

Paterbrat
29th Oct 2002, 11:25
Not a lot. Both chechen and kurd seem quite happy to use extreme methods in getting what they want. Sadly this results in extreme methods in 'solving' the situations. Broken eggs on both side and much weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth.

With reference to the Russian situation in Moscow, they were faced with an unpalatable situation and did the best they could with what they had. People died. More would have died had they done nothing. Very sad for all concerned.

With regard to keeping the type of gas secret it would appear that it is effective albeit with a casualty rate. They do not wish to let every potential terrorist know what antidote to take with them. A decision taken no doubt with future hostage situations in mind.

If you are a potential hostage taker in Russia it appears that the chances of you winding up dead are quite high, Good!!! Let us hope that that fact alone gives pause for thought. If only a few more terrorists/ hostage takers wound up dead on the spot it would save the courts massive ammounts of time and money and discourage the activity.

OneWorld22
29th Oct 2002, 13:08
"Both chechen and kurd seem quite happy to use extreme methods in getting what they want."

As are the Russians and Iraqi's/Turks.

What is the line between outright terrorism and a people fighting for an independant country where the majority in that region support the desire for independance?

Again it's all grey areas, State Governments can inflict terrorism on people too.

For me, any attack on civilian targets negates any drive for independance no matter how oppressed a people might be. Then again aren't civilain casualties resulting from the actions of government forces unacceptable?

Select Zone Five
29th Oct 2002, 14:38
Then again aren't civilain casualties resulting from the actions of government forces unacceptable?
Yes, of course, but the sad fact of the world climate today means...it's now sometimes necessary to sacrifice the minority to save the majority. :(

Not an easy decision to make, especially if people you care about are involved!

Paterbrat
29th Oct 2002, 17:39
Indeed both chechen and kurd can be just a vicious and unpleasant. It can be a hard and cruel world out there and there are hard and cruel people who do use methods that we in the West are not quite so inured too. I heard stories from people who were 'protecting' the Kurds who were somewhat dissillusioned at the end of it.
One incident that I saw on a documentary by a BBC team involved Kurds in a liberated area going to watch videos made by the Iraqi security forces of torture sessions for entertaiment. A little sobering since it was Kurds who had been torured. It would seem that they are quite happy to have the gloves off and any softly softly methods are not going to impress them at all. Sometime one fights fire with fire.

Send Clowns
29th Oct 2002, 21:33
I think, OneWolrd, that the answer to your dilemma is that the targeting of civilians unconnected with the conflict is completely unacceptible. Certain levels of civilian casualties as a result of action against a military target are a sad, inescapable fact of war. This is what also separates for example the Israeli government (as opposed to some settlers and some individual soldiers) from hard-line Palestinian terrorists.