JAA ATPL with Multiflight

[Gucci Cockpit]

Hi guys / girls,

Is anyone considering training for a CPL with multiflight? They seem to be cheaper (@£30,000 as advertised on pprune) than PanAm academy are offering in the USA. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also does this mean that it is no longer cheaper to train in the USA than in the UK?
Is it possible to obtain a JAA CPL by part training in the USA because the USA is not an approved JAA state is it not?
Also any information regarding training for the JAA CPL at Multiflight or any place else will be very much appreciated

Thanks

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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[This message has been edited by Gucci Cockpit (edited 15 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Gucci Cockpit (edited 15 March 2001).]

[Princess PP]

You do not say how much training you have done so far, I have just commenced study for the ATPL theory. After I have completed this I intend to do the following with PanAm...

IMC Rating, Multi Rating, CPL/IR, MCC, etc.

It all worked out at a bit over 20K.

Their info. pack was quite informative, they laid out everything that has to be paid for (hidden extras, etc).

There is no problem training through them for the JAA CPL/IR (Multi) as far as I know. If you look on the CAA's website they are listed as approved to conduct this training.

They send you back to the U.K for 2 weeks to complete the IR and sit the test. I have a hunch that they actually send you to Multiflight. Perhaps you should ask Multiflight about this?

I think that if you sent off for the PanAm pack you would find it useful. I used it as a good guide for the steps involved in getting the frozen ATPL, of course Multiflight have an excellent website for this too.

I can also suggest that you have a good rummage on the CAA's website, they list ALL the aproved schools for all the CAA/JAA licences there.

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/sitemap.asp

I hope I have been of some help...

PPP

[Gucci Cockpit]

You have been great help!

I have just finished my degree and am going to start with zero experience (ab inito, I think you call it)

BTW what is the advantage of going to a place like OATS or BAE in Jerez? They charge a hell of a lot more!
I am researching different ways, but there seems to be a lot of price difference in the diff courses that lead to the same qualification?! Anyhow I have ordered Clive Hughes's book!
Also I think (I may be wrong) that the JAA CPL that your are undertaking is run jointly by Muliflight, PanAm academy, and Bristol ground school. Are you doing the theory now with bristol?

Good luck on your course.

[This message has been edited by Gucci Cockpit (edited 15 March 2001).]

[Princess PP]

I think the cost difference that you are referring to is actually this... there are 2 ways to obtain your frozen ATPL, the "Modular Route" and the "Integrated Route".

Modular means just that, you can do your training in chunks whilst perhaps having gaps in-between to continue working, etc. This is usually much cheaper (20-30K) and you can go to different schools to do each module if you wish.

Integrated means that you fork-out much more (30-60K) to attend one school full-time. It has been suggested that having completed an integrated course that you will find it easier to gain employment, as apposed to modular, (this has been fiercely debated topic on PPRuNe).

I personally am following the modular route as I could never afford to do an integrated course.

If you look back through the many PPRuNe threads you will get a really good grasp of what you need to know, and will be able to make a well-informed decision as to which route is best for you.

By the way, OATS is one of the places where BA send their cadets, WMU is too, and I think perhaps BAE in Jerez is another, but I may be incorrect on that one.

All the best,

PPP

[Princess PP]

Oh yeah, I forgot to address your other comment...

Yes, I am doing my theory with Bristol Ground School, but not to PanAm's knowledge. I contacted Bristol on my own and only found out that they had a connection with PanAm after that. I'll be getting on to PanAm nearer the time.

PPP

P.S Check this out http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/006001.html

[This message has been edited by Princess PP (edited 15 March 2001).]

[EGDR]

Gucci

I started my ATPL training with Multiflight last month, so may be able to give you more detail.

The first stage is getting youre PPL which is what I am currently doing, here in Florida and then building up to 145 hours. This is done with Florida Institue of Technology in Melbourne, on PA-28-161's.

The the ATPL exams are done long distance with Bristol groundschool.Before going to Leeds/Bradford to do the CPL/IR.

Multiflight have quite a goo website - www.multiflight.co.uk (http://www.multiflight.co.uk)

[Gucci Cockpit]

EGDR
If you dont mind I would like to ask you for some advice on Multiflight and the whole CPL thing, but before I do could you please clear this up, or if anyone else could too?!


Do you know the difference between JAR-FCL 1 ATPL (A) and JAR-FCL 1 CPL (A)?
As outlined in the CAA pages:

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_approvedftos.pdf

They seem to be two different things?! Are they?

cheers


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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[This message has been edited by Gucci Cockpit (edited 16 March 2001).]

[E-Fizz]

Gucci
I too am considering Multiflight for training and have researched them in depth recently. As potential students we are faced with much dilema on the road to the right hand seat of a jet. Multiflight appear to offer a very comprehensive and fairly priced syllabus which should be in reach for most people considering this sort of career. Of course the crunch comes when you talk of eligibility for employment in the airlnes. Being new to this site I am not aware of the fierce debate regarding integrated/modular training and whether integrated favours our chances. In a fair world I would certainly hope that it did not but the harsh reality may be somewhat different. I have heared arguments that it can be better to go the FAA route and do some flying out of Europe to build up your hours. Then there are the lucky ones who do the modular, 250 hours and walk straight in as F/O!

In short I am beginning to see the structure to all of this: There is no structure! And certainly more ways than one to achieve or goal. The prices for a CPL/IR all seem to be about the same give or take some - so I suppose the most you can do is research the schools until you feel happy enough to pay one of them your money. Are you going to the exhibition tomorrow? Many schools under one roof - much to go on.
Good luck!

[TooHotToFly]

Gucci - I posted this on another thread but just in case you haven't read it here it is.

The difference is that schools approved to run the JAR ATPL do the full integrated course, including all the written exams and 195 hours flying. Schools approved to conduct training for the JAA CPL can do so for the modular CPL course (25 hours flying).

For example: OATS, BAe, Cabair and WMU are approved to conduct training for the JAR ATPL course.

Professional Air Training, Multiflight etc. are not approved to conduct the approved ATPL course. Instead, they have approval to conduct each flying module. Both ways get you the same licence in the end.

[Gucci Cockpit]

Thanks TOOHot and EFizz,

I will be at the exhibition tomorrow, got a free ticket when I ordered Clive Hughes's book!

I am still doing my research and might go for the Modular as there does not seem to be enough advantage in an Integrated course to warrant an extra 2ok! But I will keep you guys posted

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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[EGDR]

TooHotToFly

Having read your post on schools which are/aren't approved to teach the JAR ATPL I am now very concerned. Having just invested a huge pile of cash with Multiflight and having already embarked on flying training.

Does this mean my ATPL with Multiflight isnt worth a pile of poo? will airlines/ future employers look down at my qualification ?

any answers to these questions would be gratefully received.

Yours now very concerned

[Blindside]

You're fine.

Multiflight are not qualified to teach the whole, complete course in one go.

They are qualified to train you in certain components of it and can send you to other flight training schools for the rest. You get the same qualification anyway.

What Multiflight are doing is coordinating it all for you and giving you the option of having a scheduled modular course, for a smaller investment than an integrated course.

I think.....

cheers

ps has Lenny Henry ever been funny??, he must love Comic Relief as it's the only work he gets.

[This message has been edited by Blindside (edited 16 March 2001).]

[EGDR]

Cheers Blindside

Can't say I've ever found Lenny Henry funny.....

[TooHotToFly]

Sorry EGDR, didn't mean to scare you. You will come out with the same licence if you go with Multiflight as you would if you went with OATS.

As to what future employers think, I don't think there's much doubt that an airline would rather hire a 200 hour pilot from an integrated course than from a modular course, but for the best part of £20,000, you could get yourself a Flight Instructor rating and afford to live on an FI's pay for a year - by which point you would probably be looked on more favourably than students of integrated courses.

[EGDR]

Another £20,000 for an instructors rating, after this lot I'll be lucky if I have two bits to rub together !!!!!!!!!!

[TipTop]

The JAR-FCL FI(A)(Instructors Rating Restricted) will cost you around 5k. Well that's what mine cost anyway.
For the difference between an Integrated course and a Modular course you could do the FI(A) and an MCC course, go to work flight instructing, build up constructive hours and be a much better pilot for it, experienced, knowledgeable and skilled!
I've probably gone right off the point...So I'll stop.
Stick & Rudder......

[TooHotToFly]

Sorry EGDR I keep confusing you. My point was that rather than spend £50,000 on an integrated course, I would suggest the £30,000 modular route, £5,000 on FI Rating and then you'd have £15,000 to top up your FI wage (around £10,000 - £12,000).

However you don't have to bother with an instructor rating, you could stay in your current job and keep applying for airline jobs but this is likely to take quite a long time before you get one.

[EGDR]

THTF- Ah! Suddenly it all becomes clear.

Is the concensus that if your doing a modular course the only realistic hope of getting a job lies down the instructing route ?

[TooHotToFly]

The trouble is that there is a lot more 250 hour pilots than there are jobs. The feeling is generally that once you have over 1000 hours you are quite likely to get a job, hence the reason while people instruct for a year. You can get a job with 250 hours, but rather than sit around doing no flying until a job turns up, many people go into instructing.

[EGDR]

This begs the question - if you've only just got your ATPL (froz) and then get an inst. rating, do you have enough experience for this job. How difficult is it to get an instructors job ?

[TipTop]

If you are a holder of a CPL/IR (FATPL), it should be within your ability to go on to do a FI(A) rating. You would have passed the ATPL exams so your knowledge should be sufficient, you have passed the CPL and IR skill tests so your flying skills will be very good. What the course is mostly about is the fundamentals of teaching as well as sharpening up your flying skills.

Pre-entry requirements:
(a) Completed at least 200 hours of flight time of which not less than 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command(PIC) if holding a ATPL(A) or CPL(A), or if holding a PPL(A), 150 hours(PIC);
(b) met the knowedge requirements for a CPL(A) as set out in AMC FCL 1.470(b);
(c)completed at least 30 hours on single-engine piston powered aeroplanes of which at least five hours shall have been completed during the six months preceding the pre-entry flight test set out at (f) below;
(d)recieved at least 10 hours instrument flight instruction of which not more than five hours may be instrument ground time in a flight simulator or FNPT2;
(e)completed at least 20 hours of cross-countery flight as PIC; and
(f) Passed a specific pre-entry flight test with an FI qualified instructor in accordance with JAR-FCL for this purpose, based upon the proficiency check as set out in Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1,240 within the six months preceding the start of the course. The flight test will assess the ability of the applicant to undertake the course.

Well that's from the horses mouth.
After you finish the course, you realise that there was a lot you didn't know. That was my experience anyway. As I have learnt a great deal from the FI(A) course, I can only recommend it highly. It helps when you have an excellant instructor as I did, such as Peter Godwin. Out of pure information he is the geezer who is involved with the Trevor Thom books.
Anyway enough waffffle..........

[Gucci Cockpit]

TipTop,

Where does Peter Godwin instruct? Thanks for all the low down and details!

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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[TipTop]

Peter Godwin is the Chief Pilot/Director of Bonus Aviation in Cranfield, Bedfordshire. They live next door to Cabair.
if you are interested, here phone number is 01234 751800 and you can ask to speak with Jo.
If you are thinking about instructor courses, might be an idea to speak with EFT in Ft. Pierce, Florida. I know that the instructors there are entitled to now run FI(A) courses.
http://www.europeanflighttraining.com

Anyway, glad I can be of help.

[rolling circle]

Sorry, TipTop, you're jumping the gun. EFT are not yet approved to do anything. Their initial inspection is, I understand from Ben, due on 26 March. Approvals (hopefully) to follow.

I would, as always, advise against booking courses until the approval has been issued - many have been ripped off in the past!

[TipTop]

You're right rolling circle they are not yet approved, I know this too. I should have phrased it more precisely.

TipTop.......

[jakej]

Dear all,
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but have you all investigated Multiflight enough.

Last year i decided to look into their nothing to ATPL course and visited their U.S training establishment i was very imprest and found out thay they are only a training partner of Multiflight.
I came over to the U.K in early Jan2001 to start the JAR exams and dropped by at Multiflight Leeds , i spoke to both students and staff and found out a very different story to that told in their nice glossy brochure,first off i had a chat with a few students and i found out that some of the commercial students had started in May 2000 and had yet to do the CPL skill test in Jan2001,IR students said that they were fed up with the lack of continuity and that the aircraft always seemed to be off line for one reason or another,also they complianed that flying for the IR never takes place on a weekend.Some told me to find out how many hidden charges there would be for landings and approaches(as they can be quite considerable). I then to my total disblief spoke to the commercial instructor and he told me to go else where as in his view Multiflight just could not deliver and whats more they were not that bothered once they had got your money, he also added that he constantly lived in fear of getting the sack. I recently found out that they had landed one of their servicable aircraft gear up and that it would be a while before it came back on line.
SO, if i were you i would take a trip up north to Multiflight and have a QUIET word with some of their students(there probably the one's that i spoke to)and find out what they think, the best question to ask is :if you had your time again would you come here.Like me you will probably be told to try somewhere else.
I think like me you be very suprised.
Sorry once again,but if you are paying out such an amount you need to be comfortable in the fact that you are training at the right place.

[Pilch]

Well what a hot debate !!

I spoke to the MultiFlight guys yesterday who seemed very open and honest (Inc costs and options for Modular) - they were quite happy for me to talk to a number of their current and ex-students (which I plan to do). Living quite close to LBA I can pop over and get the true lie of the land.

It strikes me that any FTO is going to have students who think they're Dogs whot'sits and others that don't - I wonder if the capability of the student is a factor.

Anyway I'll post some more stuff having been & seen....

[Gucci Cockpit]

Pilch,

Looking forward (as I am sure others are) to your reply and update on this matter..

Thanks

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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[EGDR]

jakej - what can I say.....

I am currently doing the first stage of my traning with Multiflight's partner FIT here in Florida and have no complaints at all.

I too have been down to Leeds / Bradford and had a look around and not seen any of these problems that you have.Call me sceptical but I do find it suspicious that you have been slagging of Multiflight and that you've just registered.Something doesn't seem to ring true. However I could be wrong.

Pilch - I'm waiting with baited breath to see what you think after talking to some of the students at Multiflight. Especially as the next stage of my training will be back at Leeds/Bradford (hopefully), thankfully I have not yet stumped up my readies.


Yours waiting eagerly

[This message has been edited by EGDR (edited 20 March 2001).]

[E-Fizz]

I too will be very interested to hear the comments from Multiflighters that are brought back to this thread. Having met the Multiflight team over the weekend I am beginning to describe a path for my modular training. Although Multiflight are still very much in the equation for the CPL/IR, if their particular problems are in this area then I have my concerns. None more so because in real terms, apart from the MCC, it is the only item as a facility they supply!

I share some of the mild cynicism in the thread BUT remember one thing: It is your money so complete and detailed research is prudent before you part with it. £30,000 is a lot to spend on a product that doesn't guarantee a level of service delivery.

[EGDR]

E-Fizz

As I'm part of the way through I training across here in Florida I too have my concerns an will be following this closely.

As the training with Multiflight is spilit into two seperate parts.

1. PPL+150 hrs +ATPL exams

2. CPL/IR

I can recommend at least doing the first part with them, that is if you have too. I am half way through this and it is a very good operation here with Florida Inst of Tech. You don't stump up the whole £30,000 , I have paid half so have yet to pay for the CPL/IR and don't have to continue with them if im not happy.

[E-Fizz]

I hear you EGDR, you're right we don't have to stump up all of the money in one go. I have read and heard comment from the schools offering discounts if you do though - I can't say if this is the case for Multiflight but once again; buyers beware!




[This message has been edited by E-Fizz (edited 21 March 2001).]

[EGDR]

Even if it was a couple of grand discount , you'd have to be mad to even consider stumping up the best part of £30,000.

Dont't trust anyone..............