Beaten in Vietnam?

[Tool Time Two]

The now locked thread had a contributor suggesting our soldiers were beaten in VN.
I don't think so.:cool:

[203]

SASR had a kill-ratio of 500:1 (reference available)... sounds like an @rse-whoopin' to me.

[Gnadenburg]

Aussies controlled their sector, in Phuoc Tuy province centred around Nui Dat.

NVA tried to blood their nose. Battle for Long Tan. A decisive defeat for the NVA. A horrendous body count, probably a lot worse than the official count, thanks to NZ artillery.

Above mentioned SAS success. There prime role reconnaissance. Important to realise many of these kills incidentals.

How could anyone suggest Australian troops were defeated militarily?

Any Australians in Vietnam care to comment on todays Foreign Affairs Warning To Travellars? What's the terrorist threat? Surely Islamic Terrorists easy to monitor in that country.

[DIVINE WIND]

Who was the goose suggesting vietnam was a military defeat!
It was a defeat for the south,no doubt about it. The U.S has 500,000 personnel on the ground at one stage!They could have strolled through the countryside if allowed,that is before any major NVA commitment.That may have slowed it down.
Our Canberras impressed Westmorland so much so,that he wanted another squadron.Gorton said no dice,we don't have enough.
It was unable to reach a successful ending for the south,U.S.,Aussies and the rest due to political fumbling and fart arsing around.

Gee,kinda sounds like our modern day UN.

Should never have happened in the first place:(

Hey Skylark,
keep your head down and your gob shut.Better still why don't you move to North Korea.If you don't believe in free speech then why are you posting replies on forums?
Actually,I believe that Sweden or Switzerland is great place for fence sitters.:D

[203]

Incidentals?? A kill's a kill. And I'm sure it isn't "incidental" if you were on the receiving end.

PS Knadenburg, would you please speak properly, your style of shortening everything you type is really annoying.

[JULIET WHISKEY]

I beleive its something like this,

1 Australian soldier is as good as 10 US soldiers??????????

[Gnadenburg]

203

Wasn't disagreeing with you. Alluding to the fact that the SAS role in Vietnam was reconnaissance. After this objective met, prioir to extraction, they would often lay deadly ambushes. This resulted in the kills I described as being incidental to the primary mission.

There role in Afganistan not dissimilar. High incidental kills too. And in a well documented action, some very thankful Americans.


Perhaps you could re-read your reference, Phantoms Of The Jungle I suspect.

On your last, bite your bum.

[PLovett]

Some interesting thoughts here.

Going to throw some petrol on the fire to see what results.:D :eek: :D

Technically speaking, all of the forces in the south of the country were defeated. The Australians, Americans, Koreans and Thais left the field and the South Vietnamese were defeated when the north invaded and ultimately, the north was able to occupy the battlefield. This is the ultimate sign of success.

While the Australians were there, they were not defeated militarily but neither did they achieve the stated aim of sending them there, the continuance of the South Vietnamese government as a bulwark against the communist north.

It could have been done and I believe the Australian forces were much more advanced in achieving the aim than any other force there. The Australians realised that the object was to protect the civilian population from the north allowing time for the civilian infrastructure to be improved to the point where the civilians had something that they wanted to protect from the north.

The "hearts and minds" campaign that the Australian Army instituted in Phuoc Tuy province was far in advance of any other. Unfortunately, the southern government was so corrupt that any effort was always going to be wasted.:cool:

[CitizenXX]

PLovett, I agree.

I think it's best summed up by 'We won the battle/s but lost the war', because whilst the Australians, and US for that matter, killed far more enemy than they lost troops, they withdrew and the North Vietnamese over ran the south. The objective was not achieved, regardless of how many enemy they killed. If that's not losing the war, then what is?

It's a great country to visit. Even My Lai, where the US troops massacred 300+ civilians, though a little off the tourist track, was well worth taking the trouble to get to. It's a half day trip (return) by taxi from Hoi An. I thought Australians and US people would receive a hostile reception there, but not so. The people are very friendly. A local guide noted that 'it was war time when these things happened,' seeking to justify the massacre on those grounds.

Incidentally, the story of Gary Cooper, a young Flt Lt flying Porters in the bird dog role in 1969, makes interesting reading. He miraculously survived and post war went on to fly in Europe, and dare I open a can of worms, was a 767 Capt in post 89 Ansett until he retired. His story reads like something from Boys Own.

[DIVINE WIND]

CitizenXX

whats the name of the book,Don't know were a person could find a copy?
Cheers:)

[Possum 15]

PLovett, well summed up, however rather than dwell on this subject on PPrune perhaps we would be better occupied taking the line suggested by Citizen XXXXXX's post and building bridges between people rather than re-hashing body counts.

[PLovett]

Possum 15

Couldn't agree with you more.

The Vietnam war is part of our history and the lessons learnt from it should never be forgotten, which I fear in the light of current events they are, but it is time to move on.

Australia would be far better placed if we could build bridges with our neighbours rather than threatening them.

[CitizenXX]

Divine Wind & Possum,

I don't know that there was a book written about it. I read it in a RAAF publication in the early 70's, and it was featured in the Age (Melbourne) on the 30th anniversary when he made a pilgrimage to the site in South Vietnam. I'll see if I can find some reference and place it here.

Very briefly, he was shot down whilst a pax in an American helicopter. The pilot took ground fire through the head. He dragged the other pax to safety, and spent the night in an irrigation ditch, whilst the Yanks flared the place through the night looking for him. He was in the midst of a VC position, up to his chest in water, and used all his ammunition killing off the VC. Understandably, they were looking skywards firing on the helicopters, and he was making hay during the time each flare lit up his area. I think he knocked over about a dozen VC. The following day, he was spotted by a helicopter crew but he was aout 200 metres distant. The chopper hovered behind a stand of bambo, and he took off dragging the other guy through rice fields. When he reached the bamboo, he came across two VC raking the bamboo with machine gun fire trying to hit the chopper hovering at the other side of the stand, and he was approaching from behind them. He was still carrying the rifle, but had no ammunition, so he killed one with the rifle butt, and I think the other with his bare hands. He reached the chopper with his baggage and off they went. When asked why he didn't ditch the rifle since he had no ammunition, he said 'I thought the RAAF may make me pay for it since a rifle is A Class (accountable)!' Sense of humour too.

Incidentally, Cooper is still, I think, the only pilot to have successfully dead sticked a Mirage. I happened in about 1968, I believe, onto a disused airstrip not too far from Williamtown after engine failure. Had his bottom soundly kicked for it, but it saved an aeroplane. I recall him saying at the time that the sink rate was quite unbelievable.

I recall paxing on a flight he was operating, and I recognized his name on the PA. I asked the CM to ask him if he was the Gary Cooper of Vietnam fame. She asked his story, and I outlined it even more briefly than above. She went into the cockpit and said 'I understand you're something of a war hero,' and all he said when told that somebody remembered the story was 'No, not really, but he has a good memory.' Very modest chap as well.

A very small amount of research indicates a possible path to the article. Go to www.theage.com.au and search the archives. Type in 'Garry Cooper and Vietnam' and select the last five years. It throws up three matches, so almost certainly one of these, or perhaps all including letters to the editor, would cover it.

There is a charge involved, and a system is in place where you may place a credit in an account. The charge is small; under $2.00 per article.

I'll see if there is another way of finding the information, and there may well be as I'm no wizard when it comes to computers.

Further to my comments on Vietnam, and it being a great place to visit. If visiting, and you really want to see something left over from the war, don't bother with the Khe San and Rockpile tour out of Hue. The Rockpile is just that, a rockpile, and there were no battles that took place at Khe San. It was just a base, and the fighting was at least 10km away. There's pretty well nothing left at KS, and the only items reminiscent of a war were an old boot and half a mortar shell at the site of the PX (is that the American's canteen?)and I think they may have been put there for the tourists. When the US pulled out, they sent in the B52s and then the napalm bombers. More recently, the whole base has been planted with eucalyptus trees. I believe the actual runway is still there, though I didn't get to see it. The Vinh Moc tunnels are on the same tour, and they are worth visiting as they're the only originals left in Vietnam. The ones outside HCM City are reproductions. The guide at Vinh Moc says, with conviction, that they tunnels have been treated to keep cobras out, but equipped with only a small flashlight, I crapt myself for the entire time I was in there.

The VM tunnels are not vast, but very comprehensive, having held hospitals, and all infrastructure for living for quite long periods. They were used only during fine weather when the US could see to drop bombs. In inclement weather the VC surfaced and lived above ground.

Some exits are well below entry elevations, up to 20 metres in places, and face the sea. There were quite a few direct hits from naval bombardments as a consequence.

The guide was a former North Vietnamese Army officer, and very informative. I suppose they can make allowances in their presentation for they fact that they are extracting money from tourists, but there seemed to be a genuineness in his holding no animosity toward those who opposed them.

If you're looking for war memorabilia, there are plenty of reproductions available in the markets in HCM City.

[Gnadenburg]

On Building Bridges- a few years ago flew into Saigon. On descent noticed a huge and modern bridge spanning the Mekong. Travelled over this bridge a week later, locals call it Australia bridge. Was built with our aid. Looks very similar to the Glebe Bridge( I think) in Sydney.

On a political withdrawal- it was just that, not a military defeat. The North would not have invaded, if it had, it would have been annihalated by firepower, obviously. The Tet Offensive was a disaster for the VC because it brought them into the open. Arguably they didn't recover.

I agree it was a mess but I would hardly say our troops were defeated.

On visiting American battle scenes- about an hours drive from Saigon there is an Australian pilgrimage worth making. Not quite Galipoli, yet, but equally as moving. The rubber plantation at Long Tan with it's memorial cross on site. Be prepared to pay off the local police to get there.

On lessons and why rehash- In Afganistan some lessons haven't been learnt by Americans.

Whatever happens in Indonesia the lessons of Vietnam pertinent.

Can anyone comment on the heightened tourist alert for Vietnam? I`m a little perplexed by this or is Downer just covering his ass? A shipment of C4 has disappeared on the way to Cambodia from the US.

[Possum 15]

Hello all.

"What history and experience teach us is this - that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it". (Hegel - Philosophy of History)

The winners are difficult to identify, perhaps from the list of candidates the "Multi-nationals", for instance. However the losers are easy, all those whose lives were lost or destroyed. Lest we Forget (where ever they were from).

[Spad]

Classic moments in Aviation: AN flight attendant to AN captain: 'I understand you're something of a hero,' Love it!!!

[CitizenXX]

I was waiting for it from one of the tragic 89ers!!!

[CitizenXX]

Gnadenburg,

The bridge over the Red River outside Hanoi was also built with foreign aid after the war I think.

Crossing it on the way into town from the airport, I noticed the old bridge, and wondered (but only for a few seconds) why it looked the way it did. It had some square spans, some rounded spans, some stone/concrete pillars, and some steel etc.

I knew an American who was a former B52 pilot operating out of Thailand, and he bombed the bridge almost every night for months, he said, and the very next morning it had been patched up to take traffic. Consequently the mismatch of structures. He said the same of the airfield. Every night it had craters all over it, but by daybreak, there were MIGs operating off it.

Is it any wonder they were such a formidable enemy. Apart from looking the same as the South Vietnamese, and therefore dificult to tell enemy from friend, they had bulk manpower and were so resourceful.

On descent into Hanoi, I noticed numerous round padi fields dotted through the traditional square ones. Once again, it took only a few seconds to figure out they were bomb craters. Having them in straight lines but at obscure angles across the square fields, sometimes miles long, was a real giveaway. It seems the farmers just filled them in to an appropriate level, formed banks around them, and planted rice.

[Gnadenburg]

The bridge you refer to is Dragon's Jaw. In seven years of sporadic air strikes the bridge stood stall.

I think it was dropped on the first mission with the advent of Laser Guided Bombs.

B52s and bridges?

Mig bases were subject to strict rules of engagement. Keep the Chinese out of the war. Not saying they weren`t attacked but if the political will was there, I'm sure the VNAF would have been easily crippled on the ground.

A great book to read " One Day In A Long War". A little too American but not to bias a read.

[DIVINE WIND]

Last time I was there was early 88. Cruising into Hanoi in an old tupolev-134 was interesting! Seems like like new buy boeing are the go these days. However in 87 or 88 I did see an ex US 707 which had troops boarding it.Apparently Pan-Am had agreed to supply parts if allowed to fly routes over NAM. Also had a C-141 drop in to pick up ten US service personnel bodies.some sort of a trade to ease up on the trade embargo.RIP. was all kept hush hush I think,not sure,but never did read much about these "swaps" in the western press.wonder what the famalies thought,if they even knew.Remember mig-21's based at Hanoi.have heard that they were replaced with mig-23's ?was hard to get photo's there,but did get the odd one or two.
Amazing country but never did get down south.Can say that this is a place worth going to and will head back myself to see it changing.
thanks for the info CitizenXX.

Also, I do believe that at one stage Mig fields were only allowed to be attacked if any enemy aircraft movement was noticed.

:cool:

[Gainesy]

Bloody strange. Never heard of Gary Cooper till today then he pops up twice on two different Bulliten Boards.

Below is the link from the Brit Army's equivalent of PPrune (ARSSE) from a thread discussing some SAS blokes not getting the VC for ops in Afghanistan.
http://users.mildura.net.au/users/marshall/raaf/cooper.htm

The Spams are still trying to get him the Congressional Medal of Honour.

Ed to add:
In the linked-to text there is a bit that says "Cooper cut the helicpoter on the ground" I assume this should read "put the helicopter...". If so, it looks like he took control after the pilot was shot in the head?

[CitizenXX]

Gainsey,

I forgot to mention that. He did in fact land the helicopter, never having flown them before. Obviously he'd spent some time in them, and had an idea, but good performance nevertheless.

My favourite place in Vietnam would have to be Hoi An. It's an old 16th Century (I think) town. The name is Chinese, but there is a great Japanese influence there as well, and was once the port until the river silted up. Actually it probably silted up with plastic bags and litter they threw into it. The port is now at the coast about five km away.

The restaurants along the river are superb. Good food and views in the early evening.

Try the mulberry wine; it's a real killer.

[RHLMcG]

Cooper was a bit of legend.

As a younger chap, living in the Newcastle area, I recall the reports when he dead-sticked the Miracle into Tomago.

Learning to fly locally, I only met him the once and, as young lads are wont to do, viewed him as a bit of a hero type.

Many years later, in the early 90s I was involved with an outfit which caused me to have his quite inspiring CV come across my desk looking for a job (he was, at the time, a 767 captain with AN). Whether he was dissatisfied with AN or just possessed of a wanderlust - I don't know.

While one cannot detract from the man's obvious military qualities, that was the first that I knew that he had done that rather distasteful act the name for which I prefer not to use.

Rather spoilt my previous youthful admiration for the chap and left me with a distinctly sour taste in my mouth.

Although I have no doubt that it matters not one iota to the fellow, it is always a great disappointment when one's heroes let one down.

[waterops]

RHLMcG, please take another look at your sad post. Dry your eyes, mate. You sound just a little bit pathetic.

[RHLMcG]

Waterops,

I make no apologies for my post.

That's the way things are.

I looked up to this man when I was a newbie pilot.

The fellow was in a good job which he left to take a job here at the time of the unpleasantness. He lost me completely. If that offends or otherwise upsets you, then you will just have to live with it, won't you ?

[waterops]

It's not the sentiment, that's fair enough. It's the sad, public whinging...

[RHLMcG]

Maybe my syntax was lacking but there was no intention to appear as one who was complaining. I was only presenting a view seeing that the man's name came up. His behaviour doesn't distress me unduly although it certainly disappointed me.

Likewise, there were a number of people whom I previously held in high regard and in respect of whom my views changed radically some years ago.

Perchance you and I are on opposite sides of a certain fence ?

[waterops]

Not at all, I'm just sick of hearing about it all... like a lot of others, I guess. Give the bloke a break, I think he did the hard yards.

[CitizenXX]

Mr RHLMcG,

We've crossed horns previously, and I'm on record as having said that I liked your posts and thought them to be well conceived and expressed; not at all bitter and twisted as a number of the posters here.

This one, however, is quite different. This is no more than another attempt to hijack a thread, and a bloody interesting thread at that.

Why you would even think to mention 'that event' is beyond me. Sometimes, things are better left unsaid. The don't reduce the status of the subject; rather they reduce the credibility of the writer.

Like it or not, Garry Cooper is a war hero!! I've never met the man although I've seen him a few times, and consequently never had the opportunity to discuss the events of 1968, or was it 69, with him, that is if he would want to discuss them, but whatever he has done since, has no bearing on the fact that his actions make him a war hero.

They say there is no such thing as a hero, only one who is brave for just a fraction longer than the rest, but if you read through his citations on the site mentioned above, you can be in no doubt of his status. He was brave almost beyond belief, and 'enjoys' the esteem in which he is held for significant bravery and exceptional performance over a protracted period.

I'm extremely disappointed that you chose to raise the matter you did here; very disappointed indeed.

Please don't put yourself in that group of sad individuals who have nothing in their miserable lives other than bitterness and a longing to have things the way they were, and punish those they perceive as having destroyed their lives. They destroyed their own lives, and continue to do so. You sound too intelligent to be considered part of that group.

[Spad]

Why you would even think to mention 'that event' is beyond me. Sometimes, things are better left unsaid.I'm extremely disappointed that you chose to raise the matter you did here; very disappointed indeed. Still wishing it would go away, I see, ChitX. Don’t hold your breath.

[Tool Time Two]

A hero in two wars.
Might be commendable if the second case wasn't stabbing fellow citizens in the back.:cool:

[Wizofoz]

I had the privilege of flying with Garry on a number of occasions.

A finer gentleman you will never meet.

He had the knack of being a quiet, self effacing guy, yet able to tell his quite riveting stories with colour and humour.

He richly deserves a VC for his actions in Vietnam and it is a crime he has nicer received it.

[Pole Vaulter]

Hey Two Tools,
You are just lucky this guy did not "Stab you in the back" If he had done so you would be like a few VC that got in his way "HORIZONTAL"
This guy is a real hero in ways you would never understand. Well done Gary. Who really cares what this sad bunch of rebels thinks.

[amos2]

...Ok!...let's concede he was a war "hero"...
Let's also concede he was a "scab"...fair enough ?

[DIVINE WIND]

89:o :o :o :(
Is this relevent?
We all know who gary Cooper is.Can the abusive persons identify themselves aswell.I think not.Maybe that is the difference between a hero and a whinger.
This post has turned into a public crucifiction,why?:confused:

[Tool Time Two]

His name was NOT brought into this thread by an 89er.:cool:

[Pole Vaulter]

TTT,
Does that mean that just because his name appeared that you had to go into your usual mode and denigrate his name. You just cant help yourself can you?

[Tool Time Two]

I didn't denigrate his name at all.
Nor yours, or anyone else's.
You all managed to do that yourselves.:cool:

[DIVINE WIND]

TTT,
Who cares who introduced this guy to the thread. Doe's this mean that if you give us your personal details that we can openly judge you(under your real name)?
Get a grip:p

[Kaptin M]

"Who cares who introduced this guy to the thread."

Well, now that you mention it, it seems to have been CitizenXX. :rolleyes:

Not ONLY did he introduce the name of the past Hollywood actor, but he also gave us an intensive. in-depth, (auto?)biography of this supposed "hero"......funny how he seems to have qualified himself to wear THAT badge twice!! :)

CitizenXX certainly appears enamoured with Gary Cooper when he writes:

They say there is no such thing as a hero, only one who is brave for just a fraction longer than the rest, but if you read through his citations on the site mentioned above, you can be in no doubt of his status. He was brave almost beyond belief, and 'enjoys' the esteem in which he is held for significant bravery and exceptional performance over a protracted period.

Pushing your own barrow, CX??.....or just dumb-founded at the way ordinary men (and women) behave in extra-ordinary circumstances?
Your previous history is NOTHING of which you could be proud.

Perhaps Gary Cooper should have retired after Viet Nam.

(And I agree, 100%, with Slasher.)

[Pole Vaulter]

If you took the time to look at the thread KM you would find it had to do with VIETMAM not your obsession with 89. As the said person had everything to do with Vietnam that is why his name was mentioned. Then again as usual the sad bunch of 89ers have to get back on the usual bandwagon and push the same old cart again. One day you will realise apart from the dwindling few of your kind out the population of the world of many Billion there is probably about 100 of so of your sorry bunch that give Jack S*it about 89.

[Old Digger]

Was it Mark Twain or Theodore Rooseveldt who said 'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.'?

It will be interesting to watch this thread to see if that proves to be the case here.

[CitizenXX]

I really don't care if it goes away or doesn't. The point I'm making, no doubt too subtle for your intellectual level, is that it is indeed inappropriate to raise it in each and every forum.

But, of coursse, I realize you take some perverse satisfaction in raising this 'over it' subject at every chance.

Something you should understand is this - nobody in the world gives a $hit except a small group of people who have some bizarre desire to beat themselves up, and attempt to make the rest of us feel bad.

Well, do I have news for you. Nobody gives a $hit. You'll never make me feel bad. In fact I feel good about seeing you screwed back in 89, and even beter about seeing you upset yourself daily with the same old rhetoric.

[Huw Jorgen]

For someone who professes not to give a rat's about the '89 thing, CitizenXX appears to get far more agitated about it than most of the fraternity.

Clearly he doesn't realise that his post summarises the views of the '89-ers regarding the lower end of the scab spectrum - quite succinctly I would have thought.

[Kaptin M]

You have to smile at the "usual rhetoric" of CitizenXX, Pole Vaulter and other "heroes" when they rant on about "a SMALL group of people......dwindling few of your kind out the population.....bunch of rebels".

The word scab was the title you and your kind CHOSE during the dispute - you were quite HAPPY to accept it THEN because of the excessive financial and career rewards for which you sold the right to be treated with respect. This was acknowledged to me by at least 3 individuals - "Yes, I know I`ll be a scab!".

YOU were then - and still are NOW - the very small minority.
Only because the vast MAJORITY of mankind is principled - which you lot are NOT.

The "returnees" accounted for only about 22%?@of ALL of the then Australian domestic pilots.
2 out of 10.

And with less than half of you now re-employed, you really do stand out like a scab on an otherwise clean body.
Agreed, it`s not a nice word - but then YOU are not nice people!

As written by Citizenxx, "In fact I feel good about seeing you screwed back in 89,".

[piniped]

Hey-zeus!! Give it a bluddy rest will you!

This thread is NOT ABOUT YOU!!!

Can you please get over the fact that not everything is about your pathetic dispute!
If you want to 7500 a thread, how about starting your own?

This was an interesting topic until you guys showed up.

Either contribute nicely or bu66er off!

shakes head in disbelief....

[Gnadenburg]

I will add a contribution.

As I understand, Cooper was a member of the RAAF Antarctic Flight in the early sixties. Successfully forced landed a Beaver amongst the ice caps. Maybe not as harrowing as a Mirage without an engine or being shot down in Vietnam, again a fair effort. The Antarctic Flt had a Sioux helicopter. Not sure if he was checked out on the Sioux, as this could explain the skill in which he took over the Huey in Vietnam.

A remarkable pilot and a remarkable career.

Galland a Nazi, Kingsford Smith cost a mate his life in treachery far greater than a unioin dispute, Lindbergh a Nazi sympathiser and the failings of great pilots endless. Just ask an F/A about the personalities of many airline pilots.

Pesonalities and failings aside- subjective of course - still admire the flying abilities and adventures of the aforementioned.

[Wizofoz]

A while back the moderators of PPRUNE, with not a little fanfare, announced they were getting despotic with both sides of the `89 debate re abuse and hi-jacking of threads.

Recently, Woomera has tried to allow debate to run on supposedly strict conditions...

Well... Give them an inch....

I think both sides have something to answer for here. I may hold a particular point of view, but that does not mean I support anyone being an A$$$H@@@ just because I am in general agreement with them.

This was a thread about Australian involvement in Vietnam. An Aussie who was there got mentioned. It was On!!

I think we need to get back to the despot mode, guys. Unless a thread is specifically about `89 and identified so by title, anyone hijacking it with `89 crap should be binned and binned hard.

IMHO of course...

[Kaptin M]

I believe it's known as "right of reply", Wiz. It took a little more than 1/2 a dozen posts before CitizenXX "took the initiative" with this;
"Incidentally, the story of Gary Cooper...was a 767 Capt in post 89 Ansett until he retired."

Yes, you DO push a certain point of view, because of your joining date!

Similarly, this thread was not opened for the benefit of one "hero" to push his own barrow.
My Father carried out several heroic "escapades" during the Second World War, but does NOT go blowing his own trumpet on public forums! As a matter of fact, he is reluctant to talk about the events, and is both kind in his admiration of the men he killed (singularly), and collectively disgusted with them as a race, overall.
Sound familiar?

Vietnam (later recognised as Viet Nam) in general is fine.
Introduce one-on-one (as did CitizenXX) and the battle becomes more focussed.
'89 and '69 might have been a generation apart, but there were also many here whose marbles tumbled for both spats.
Some literally!!

[DIVINE WIND]

Unless Cooper has posted on this thread then I don't think he is blowing his own trumpet.It has been done on his behalf.
Incidentally..............................
Why don't you start up WWW.89er.COM:p

[Kaptin M]

I don't think he is blowing his own trumpet.It has been done on his behalf

You MIGHT be right, Kamikaze.
For a few cents more, most of them will SWALLOW as well.

As an incidental, the Beaver that was "force landed" in the Antarctic is rumoured to have suffered "engine failure" from carby icing.
A remarkable pilot indeed!!