Fire Cover.........

[PeePeerune]

With the firefighters strikes coming up next week ,will airports still recieve fire services..............

[hatsoff]

Ummm...hadn't thought of that.

Airport Fire services only provide the initial action in the case of Full Emergencies and Accidents.
When the local authority services arrive , control of the incident is handed over to them. At this point the Airport Fire Services would normally recover/refill their equipment to allow continued airfield operations.

I think we'd better ask some questions.

[ETOPS]

It has already been said that firefighters at the major London airports are not affected by the strike call but is that the position at other 'fields? An example might be Newcastle which is run by the local authority - are their staff union members?

[Findo]

I'd be surprised if any airport fire service staff are affected. Their training, not to mention their terms and conditions of contract, are markedly different from local fire stations.

I cannot recall an incident in decades where the local authority fire service have been on site quickly enough to make a difference to life and limb. That is presumably why the very high standard of equipment is mantained at airports according to the category of aircraft using the airport.

[jumpseater]

I don't think it will affect the RFF category for many airfields if any. The big difference is when a full emergency is declared, or an accident is imminent i.e gear stuck and will not come down, the local brigade are usually at RVP points at the airfield in anticipation of the forthcoming incident/accident.
That is where I suspect we will see the difference. On strike days there will have to be a smoking hole before the local brigade will turn out.

[hatsoff]

When there is an incident at any UK airport , the airport emergency services are only required to take the initial action.
Their equipment is designed for a short sharp strategy.

The way any UK Airport , even Heathrow , deals with any incident depends on the availability of outside services to continue emergency action when Airport services are depleted.

So, although the Airport Firemen will be in place , the airport emergency plans cannot be effected.
While I suppose , theoretically , the Fire Category remains the same , the Airport will not be able to put their emergency plans into action and the airport licence may be breached.

[Airline Tycoon]

Two Points:

1)
Cover for the Terminals and the Control Towers. Some insurance companies are saying that they will only mantain cover for up to three story buildings.

2)
If there is an airfield crash, god forbid, airfield fire crews would have to deal with the incident on there own and therefore the crash cat. would be reduced to zero. It is possible if there was an off airfield crash, within a certain distance of the field, the airfield crews would attend and therefore this could have a sereve impact on the crash cat.

[sharpshot]

Think the "Private Flying forum" is ahead of you on this.....take a look!

Many questions vis a vis Terminal Cover and heaven forbid, Fuel Farms!

[niknak]

As has been said, the airport fire service will respond to any airfield or off airport incident within the specified radius agreed by the airport authority.

What is really worrying is the fact that the airport fire service only have the media, (fire retardant foam) to put out the initial fire on an aircraft, and only have VERY LIMITED resources to tackle major fires in public areas, freight buildings, fuel farms etc. For this they rely on the local authority fire service.

No doubt airport PR will try and smooth this over, but there's no doubt that without local authority cover, airports are seriously at risk.

[Spitoon]

But niknak, without local authority fire cover, everyone is at greater risk. But airports - and some factories - are far better placed than most businesses because they have their own fire services.

As far as airport fire cover is concerned, yes airport fire services are intended to knock any fire down for long enough to get everyone off the aircraft. If the wreckage burns out afterwards so be it but the AFS will have done their job and that's what they are there for.

On Fire Cat available, it's quite simple. If the AFS are able to respond to a call out with the minimum require minima then the airport has cover - if they can't do this (and it doesn't matter how many local authority five crews there might be hanging around), then there is no fire cover and operations that need fire cover should stop.

[Unable2faultonground]

CAP 576
Aerodrome Model Emergency Orders


states........

Chapter 1 Page 4
4 ‘Full Emergency’ Procedures
When it is known that an aircraft approaching the aerodrome is in such trouble that
there is danger of an accident on landing, the following procedures will be followed:
4.1 Action by the Air Traffic Control Officer
4.1.1 Operate alarm system.
4.1.2 Call the Aerodrome Rescue and Fire Fighting Service by the direct line, saying ‘Full
Emergency standby at ............................................... Runway in use .........................
Type of aircraft or approximate seating capacity ......................................................
(Registration No.) ................... ETA ................................................ hours ...................
Persons aboard (if known) ................................................... (Nature of trouble).’
4.1.3 Advise the Aerodrome Telephone Exchange, using the message ‘Full Emergency.
Type of aircraft or approximate seating capacity ................. ETA ................................
hours. Persons aboard (if known) ............... Rendezvous point ...................................’
4.2 Action by the Aerodrome Rescue and Fire Fighting Service
The Aerodrome Rescue and Fire Fighting Service will immediately turn out a full
attendance which will normally be stationed at the pre-determined standby points for
the runway in use. Any subsequent action is the responsibility of the Officer-in-Charge
of the Aerodrome Rescue and Fire Fighting Service and the applicances will not return
5 February 2002
to the fire station until he has satisfied himself that they are no longer required. The
Air Traffic Control Officer will only declare the incident closed after agreement with
the Aerodrome Rescue and Fire Fighting Service Officer.
4.3 Action by the Aerodrome Telephone and/or Terminal Staff
4.3.1 On receipt of the ‘Full Emergency’ message, the Aerodrome Telephone and/or
Terminal staff will:
4.3.2 Call the Local Authority Fire Brigade (Tel. No. ................................). The message will
be passed as follows:
‘This is ............................................... Aerodrome.
Full Emergency.
Type of aircraft of approximate seating capacity ..............................
ETA .............................. hours.
Rendezvous point ............................................................ ..................’
4.3.3 Call the aerodrome ambulance (if applicable).
4.3.4 Call the Public Ambulance Service (Tel. No. .............................).
The message will be passed as in paragraph 4.3.2 above.
4.3.5 Inform the (Aerodrome) Police or Security Service (Ext No. ...................) as follows:
‘Full Emergency.
Type of aircraft or seating capacity ..............................
Runway in use
ETA .............................. hours.
Rendezvous point ............................................................ ..................’
4.3.6 Inform the Airport Director, or Duty Officer if the Director is not available.
4.3.7 Inform the Operating Company or Handling Agent.
4.4 Action by the Aerodrome Police or Security Service
The Officer-in-Charge of the Aerodrome Police or Security Service will inform the
officers at the gates and post a guide at the Rendezvous Point in use to direct
incoming fire appliances if necessary. Incoming fire appliances, ambulances and
police vehicles will be held at the Rendezvous Point until it is known that they are
required to get to work or they are released to return to their stations.

[deltic]

What about cover where there are two runways? If there is emergency traffic to land on one runway, is there is enough cover for the second runway if there is no back up from the local brigade? Also, fire alarms seem to go off on a regular basis in the terminal buildings with the local brigade turning out to investigate so who is going to cover this area?

[Departures Beckham]

Deltic, it has been said on the news that the Green Godesses will not be responding to automatic alarms, so it appears as though the AFS will be on their in the terminal.

With regards to the two runway situation, I asked a similar question to a high-level security employee at STN a year or so ago with regards to a scenario where the AFS were attending a call on the outskirts of the airfield, he advised me that as long as the AFS were on the airport then operations can continue.

As I said he was security not AFS, so perhaps someone else can confirm that for me.

[roger]

The airport firemen and women belong to a different union to those who have agreed to industrial action.
However, I believe they have/ or are about to vote for the same measures themselves.

Can anyone back this up?

roger

[pilotwolf]

Stand to be corrected but believe I am right in saying...

1. AFS are about to or have voted on pay issues.
2. AFS (certainly at LGW) are the initial response to ALL fire calls at the airport including 'domestic', (auto alarms, smoking bins,etc) fire calls and are backed up by the local authority service.
3. Not sure about the exact details but I am sure that AFS have some form of over manning/appliance cover to allow for more than one incident occuring at the same time.

[snooky]

Even if things continue normally during a strike (as far as airports are concerned) it may be worth considering that comitting to a particular airport, even if it has several runways may be unwise due to the greatly increased likelihood of fire category reduction.

[chiglet]

During the Last Firemans Strike,
At Manch, we had a "Full Emergency" [Invicta VC9 {Vanguard}], Engine failure. 20 Mins AFTER the a/c landed...a "Green Godess" turned up:rolleyes:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[roger]

pilotwolf

at Heathrow the AFS for domestic stuff!? is as/more busy than most local fire crews.(not meant as an insult)

chiglet

in all fairness, most army guys can't read a comic, so how are they expected to find where they are going reading a map?

roger

[steamchicken]

John Prescott meets with FBU general secretary Andy Gilchrist 1600z today after telephone conversation overnight. Agenda is "Emergency cover on strike days and pay ". It is reported that the TUC president is pressing the FBU to cooperate with the Bain review of fire service pay and working practices, and that Prof Sir George Bain has been given more staff in order to get his report out quickly. BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2351861.stm)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I've ben wondering about this isue too, but not sure how many people in authority have considered it. Fact is at Heathrow and many other airfields the local AFS turn out alone for a "Local Standby" but they call upon the outside services to come along for any other category of emergency.

Question is, if there is no outside fire service available, should flying continue?

[Lazlo]

The question is, would a strike reduce the numerical level of fire cover at UK airfields. Operators of large jets cannot operate out of airfields that have a fire cover level below a certain number (5 I think) and if the strikes result in cover below this level then it isn't a question of whether airlines should fly, they quite simply will not be able to because it is illegal.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

There are two situations here... the local AFS provides cover for normal operations so, if there are to be no emergencies, all should be OK. However , it's obvious that a local AFS could not cope with a major emergency which is why outside services attend for certain categories of emergency.

The question needs to be asked whether normal operations can continue if that outside cover is not available in case of a major emergency.

Perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of the safety services could respond?

[Partly Achieved]

"in all fairness, most army guys can't read a comic, so how are they expected to find where they are going reading a map?"

I understand from a copper mate of mine that each Green Goddess with have a local bobby on board to provide navigational assistance.

[roger]

Partly Achieved

Christ, things are going from bad to worse....

roger

[chiglet]

According to my son,[also a Copper:rolleyes: ] a "Traffic" car will "Escort":eek: the Green Goddess.
At least, they should know where they are going:D :D
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[canberra]

most army guys cant read a comic??????????? i think youve been watching too many films and should apologise.

[roger]

canberra

I'm an ex-crab, (tg 9)the comment was tongue in cheek without smilies. Chill out, not every thing put on here without a little face is meant seriously.

roger