UK Firemen's Strike

[Biggus]

I would like to wish all the UK military personnel, of whatever Service/Rank/Trade or Sex, who will be providing cover during the coming Firemen's strike, the best of luck in the weeks to come. Look after yourselves boys and girls, cover each others backs, and know your limitations!

[Scud-U-Like]

I'll second that.

It also serves as a timely reminder that certain elements will not be playing by Marquis of Queensbury Rules, especially when public sympathy for their 'cause' begins to wane. So, the less said about the deployment of personnel and resources for this Op, the better.

[canberra]

im old enough to remember the last firemens strike, the question that most of the public asked then and now is why do they have the right to strike?

[Letsby Avenue]

Riding on the back of 9/11 methinks. If their worth 30K, I'm worth 60! Let's see if Bliar has the stomach for this one?

Best of luck for those picking up the pieces at the sharp end.

[RubiC Cube]

Firemen earn £21k for 2 x 12 hour day shifts followed by 2x 12 hour night sleeping shifts followed by 4 days off.

Most squaddies earn £13k for long hours in uncomfortable conditions prepared to give their life for Queen and Country.

I suspect a lot of squaddies who serve on Op Fresco may well think of a change in career direction if it goes ahead.

[kippermate]

I do think that asking for 40% was a little over ambitious, but I wouldn't go into a burning building ( whilst having bricks throen at me by the viewing public ) for the money I'm getting now, never mind £21k.... unless you ordered me, Sir!

[ZH844]

I agree with the strike but understand the stress it is putting on the military. I think they should be allowed to strike, their profession is still classed as unskilled hence the low wage…surely unskilled tasks are not that important that they should not be allowed to strike…

A fire at No.10 might focus the government’s mind..
;)

[BEagle]

ZH844 - your comment regarding a 'fire at No 10' could well be viewed as a threat. Not a good idea.

I will refrain from comment on the firemen's strike bar pointing out that, since the last one 25 years ago:

1. The skills required to work with modern fire hazards and modern equipment have increased.

2. Society in general is far more litigious and cuddly-wuddly Health and Safety regulated than it was in 1977.

3. The number of serving personnel in the Armed Forces has decreased enormously.

4. The number of OoA operations faced by the Armed Forces has increased substantially.

5. The Green Godesses haven't got any younger.

[Scud-U-Like]

It seems the firefighters want all the financial benefits of 'professional' standing, whilst retaining all the advantages of 'manual worker' status.

They can't have their cake and eat it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/firefighters/story/0,12536,816447,00.html

[Flatus Veteranus]

Agreed, Scud. You cannot be a "professional" and strike. If you strike you are a "worker" - (or a shirker if you are in the essential public services, with a secure job and pension to look forward to).

Firemen's wages seem very competitive compared with paramedics, nurses and the armed services. A 40% hike would be outrageous. Only MPs get that sort of a rise.

[Samuel]

Beagle to the point;as usual!

A further comment on the Green Godess and Health and Safety issues is that the said vehicle was never designed to attend fires as a first attendance machine! It meets none of the current structural safety requirements of modern vehicles. It would not, in fact, be allowed to be used as a front-line vehicle by any fire service anywhere, but it's OK to allow untrained and inexperienced servicemen and women to put their necks on the line.

The Godess is a remnant of the old Civil Defence structure and is a shifter of water in a reticulation sense rather than a high pressure pumper. The technology is steam-age by comparison. It is slow, unstable, and out of date.

[Talk Reaction]

First, I have no doubt that the Firemen deserve a pay rise, their wages are meagre for the job they do.

Second though, many soldiers, sailors and airmen, as already pointed out, do highly skilled jobs in very trying and challenging circumstances, risk their lives and also get paid a pittance..

My point, well the Firemen know the Armed Forces will end up bailing them out (if the service that will be provided indeed can bail out the strikers) and yet they pick Christmas to strike. Not that there would ever be a good time but they clearly don't give a damn about the young men and women who are losing out through no fault of their own. I would like to think they could see the knock on effects of this strike.

To re-itterate, good luck to all taking part in this vital action and take care.

[circle kay]

last strike at the moment finishes at 2359 on xmas eve. They get double time or time and a half for xmas day!!

[KPax]

It is interesting that 2x Jags and his cronies think that the strike is unacceptable, but they will not allow the Fresco people to cross Picket Lines. The Fire appliances do not belong to the Firemen, but to the local taxpayers.

[dopeonarope]

I wish all those on this forthcoming operation a safe and healthy time. Dangerous times are ahead and I hope that no one loses any loved ones, public or military.

I find it strange that firefighters are not classed as professionals and it is disgusting the amount of pay that they get at present. I hope that they do get awarded the pay rise that they quite rightly deserve. Firefighters do more than lift heavy weights and put out fires.

I left the UK to pastures new in Canada and it is great to see that here they pay firefighters, paramedics (of which I am one here (thank you RAF for my Paramedic Training ;))) and all medical fields earn a lot more money. Even with the present exchange rate! (and petrol is only 72 cents litre = 28 pence!( We are all held in greater esteem than would be back in blighty.

If firefighters are worth 30k you are worth 60k.... how do you work that one out? Is that to pay for your ego about being a pilot... they save lives day to day ;) with a lot more risk ... check the stats.

[In Tor Wot]

The firemen may be classed as unskilled but they were offered the opportunity to change that by the Bain inquiry - but they turned it down.

Their 40% bid was deemed excessive by the employers and they were offered arbitration to validate it - but they turned it down.

What little sympathy I had for them has waned significantly since watching some of our guys complete their 'training' and go and stand in for them using equipment that would not be out of place in the average museum. The Union are now showing ‘concern’ over the safe operation of the country while they are on strike and encouraging other sectors to stop work in the interests of health and safety – what cynical hypocrisy. If the Union believes that they can encourage secondary action (masked by H&S concerns) and maintain public support they are sadly mistaken.

For God’s sake guys look after yourself, your life is not worth their pay rise.

[Ralf Wiggum]

While I agree that the firemen are deserving of a pay rise for their duties, I am getting more and more angry with their excessive and ludicrous claims of a 40% pay rise. If they win, who next? The nurses, Doctors, Teachers etc.

What people forget is that any pay rise will be met by the public purse. So next time a fireman asks you to sign a petition for a 40% rise, ask him where he thinks the money will come from. Ultimately us.

Just hope that Tony and his cronies remember the Operations that the Armed Forces have carried out on his behalf over his latest term in office, when it come to our pay rise. I doubt very much he will remember, as we do not have any union or assosiation who will make waves for him, just a few brown nosers at the top who think of their own needs, rather than those of the many.

[propulike]

The firefighters I live near to do not save lives day to day. The notion that every time they get a shout they emerge from the burning building with flames licking round their boots and smoke billowing from over their shoulders while carrying a baby is more b@ll@cks than I can stomach.

The guys I know confess readily that most of the 50% of the time they do have to go to work is spent deciding whose turn it is to make the curry or what film to watch. The majority of shouts they get are to respond to chip pans and garden rubbish. All bar one of them have second jobs.

Everyone has the right to ask for more pay. What NO-ONE has is the right to use human life as a bartering point. People WILL die as a result of this dispute who otherwise could have been saved by the people we (the country) have trained. The firemen are going to KILL PEOPLE over a pay-claim. That is INDEFENSIBLE in my opinion.

I won't be able to post for a while as my keyboard is melting under my anger, and the only way I can stop the flames from speading is to throw it out the window 'cos I'm not having a feckin' fire-prat come into my house while I have the choice. Public support? What planet are they on?

[laurie]

CAPS LOCK looks to be melting already, mate! Best run before the whole room goes up! Whoomph!

Interesting that no-one has raised the subject of MP's granting themselves a similar pay raise not so long ago......How different the media coverage was then.

[LunchMonitor]

The MPs have to have their pay rise because if they turned themselves down (?) and went on strike then the military would have to be called in to run the country...........Theres a scary thought!

[Letsby Avenue]

Though considerably less scary that Bliar having a go!

[knowitall]

I've heard a nasty romour the Royal Ballet are going on strike next month!

[kilo52]

The last firemans NATIONAL strike was at Christmas as well. I remember being SDO on Christmas Day 1978 and taking a case of beer to the Fire Section at Northolt who were on duty as the Specialist Fire Team for North London.

I say NATIONAL strike because since we bought a cottage in NE Essex 6 years ago there has only been ONE YEAR where the local fire service has not gone on strike. Each time the local garrison has had to provide cover with the Green Godesses.

Incidentally, the pay structure the Firemen now complain so vociferously about is the structure they went on strike to obtain in 1978!!!

[pilotwolf]

This maybe a silly question...

What happens to the Green Godesses between fire strikes? Are they on active service at miltary bases or just mothballed?

If they ARE in service is their use during the strike not degrading military fire cover? Also if they are so incapable and poorly equipped for fire fighting should be be using them to protect our forces?

[Scud-U-Like]

pilotwolf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/firefighters/story/0,12536,816998,00.html

[pilotwolf]

Thanks S-U-L.

Does that mean the MOD doesn't own them or do they lease them from TNT?

Or is it just a storage agreement?

[Samuel]

Green Godess: please refer to my earlier post on this thread, 22nd Oct, posted before the the Guardian!

These vehicles are owned by whichever Govt. Dept that runs Civil Defence.

They are not used, ever, other than for situations such as this.

Servicemen will not be allowed access to normal front-line vehicles, or any of the equipment they carry, because B. Liar is cosy with the Unions and will not allow picket lines to be crossed.

RAF Crash/Fire vehicles are not suitable for domestic fire-fighting, though no doubt the airmen manning them would make do.

In 1997 there were 236,000 days lost to strike action. So far in 2002 there have been 800,000 !

[Bertie Thruster]

In 1978 I manned a Green Goddess for 2 weeks. The firemen were striking for a wage equivalent to my then corporals pay. Now they want to strike for a wage equivalent to a basic HEMS pilots pay!

Either I am working for the wrong company or the firemen are asking for too much!

Or both!

[Anton Meyer]

Just a thought, but maybe we should look at training the troops in driving civilian fire engines.

That way, when the firefighters go on strike next time, we could safely use Mr and Mrs Taxpayers fire engines and the GGs could go in a museum.

And while we are at it, the guys could learn how to drive an ambulance, because if the firemen get 16%, the paramedics will be out too!

How many Seasons of Discontent lie ahead of us? :(

[Jackonicko]

You're quite right about the use of civilian fire engines and equipment being prevented by the Govt's unwillingness for troops to cross picket lines, although this is not the 'official reason'.

Instead, it is deemed that modern fire engines would require too much training for mere squaddies to be able to use.

Speaking to a fire service source, I'm told that modern engines are generally much easier to use than Green Goddesses, and that apart from some highly specialised kit (unavailable on the Goddess, and with no equivalent), soldiers would have no problems operating them. His thought was that a military crewed modern appliance would have about 70% of the effectiveness of a civilian-crewed one, eg about four times the effectiveness of a Goddess. Even if a modern engine only used its superior speed, higher water pressure and longer ladders, (none of which impose a greater training burden than that required for the GG) they would mark a significant improvement.

He pointed out that use of the longer ladders available on modern engines, breathing apparatus, cutting gear and flame-retardant clothing required little or no training, and that cutting troops off from this kit was irresponsible to them and to the public, since it degraded their effectiveness and reduced their personal safety without any good cause.

The consequences of a fire service strike will include unnecessary and unavoidable deaths. Let's not exacerbate this by artificially constraining the effectiveness of the interim solution, especially not for mere political expediency.

[MaddogsTwo]

Just a thought, but isn't this an Aircrew Forum, not a Forces general chat forum? I don't see many Forces Aircrew getting involved in this one, so why not take your opinions to a forum where they would be heard?

In response to the replies below, I take it back! It wasn't an 'angry' go elsewhere anyway. More of a quizzical, "If you feel strongly, take it somewhere it will do some good, ie through your MP, etc."

I am surprised that the Forces are using op aircrew for this purpose, and hope that being OOA at the moment will let me off the call-up!! However, I do think the firemen are worth every penny of what they are asking for, if it means they run into a burning building to drag my family out in the middle of the night.

[Jackonicko]

Calm down old son! PPRuNe often includes threads that aren't strictly relevant to the forum title - from procurement decisions that are way above current aircrew's pay grade to political and geo-political stuff.

I think this thread started 'cos some holding aircrew had been posted to the operation (a new Deny Christmas?) anyway.

And as a self-confessed navigator:eek:, you could be asked what you're doing on a Pilot's Rumour Network anyway! :D

I may be a journo, and I may not be remotely professional, but I am at least a stick-monkey, before you point out my own admittedly rather tenuous right to be here!

[Radar Riser]

MaddogsTwo

"I don't see many forces aircrew getting involved in this one"

Well get your facts right before you hark on. There is at least one fully operational Nimrod crew from ICK involved in Op Fresco.

And they say that we're not overstretched. B@ll@cks!

Sorry for the rant chaps.:mad:

[9.81m/s/s]

Hey Maddogstwo - I'm aircrew and I know of at least one other from my station who is on fiasco with me so wind yer neck in!

This is one of the times when I think it might be very productive for the press to use this entire thread! Any of you wizz kids able to email the thread to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister?

I think most of it has been said above - how pathetic that some people are trying to instigate secondary action under cover of the health and safety issue. As far as I can see firemen work very few hours ( relatively ) and most of that time is spent playing pool or shopping for ingredients for a good curry!!

BUT ABSOLUTE SHAME ON THEM - STRIKING UP TO XMAS EVE WHEN OUR FORCES PERSONNEL ARE TRYING TO GET HOME TO LOVED ONES!!! AND THATS AFTER WHAT HAS BEEN A BUSY AND TESTING YEAR FOR HM FORCES! THIS IS THE STRAW THAT HAS BROKEN MY BACK - NO SYMPATHY FROM ME ! SHAME SHAME SHAME ON THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:

[ORAC]

UK Army to Strike (http://www.thebrainstrust.co.uk/article.45.2541.html)

Call to Arms (http://www.theschmews.com/article.asp?id=702&type=1)

[Scud-U-Like]

If you believe The Sunday Times, the threatened firefighters' strike is very pertinent to aircrew.

Article in full:

RAF squadrons grounded by firemen’s strike threat

Eben Black, Chief Political Correspondent

BRITAIN’S frontline RAF squadrons will be out of action this week because the government is stripping them of staff to prepare for the eight-day strike firefighters have threatened from Wednesday.
Ministers have confirmed that RAF personnel from 37 squadrons have been switched to emergency fire duties.

Two of the squadrons are understood to be central to Britain’s 24-hour air defences and another two are Tornado strike squadrons.

The effects of the strike will be felt for much longer than eight days because of the complexity of training military staff and moving them and their vehicles around the country.

The revelations about the RAF follow similar warnings about the Royal Navy, a third of which is already out of action after staff were ordered to prepare for emergency fire duties.

The dispute follows the firefighters’ demand for a 40% pay increase, which would take their average salary to £30,000.

Talks between the firefighters’ union and their local government employers broke up last week with no settlement.

The search for a deal has been complicated by union claims that the employers were willing to offer 16% — but were ordered not to do so by the government, which feared spiralling pay claims from other public sector employees. The employers’ current offer is worth about 4%, say negotiators.

Two planned 48-hour strikes have already been averted after interventions from John Prescott, the deputy prime minister. However, Wednesday’s walkout looks likely to go ahead. Andy Gilchrist, the Fire Brigades Union leader, has refused to back down over the claim.

The government has traditionally turned to the armed forces during strikes by firemen. All three forces train personnel in firefighting and maintain their own fleets of fire vehicles.

In 1978, 4,000 personnel from the navy and the Royal Marines were deployed with “Green Goddess” emergency vehicles across Britain.

However, there are serious concerns over the quality of cover that RAF and naval fire crews will be able to provide. The services have only 827 Green Goddesses, compared with 3,000 civilian fire engines.

Many of the military vehicles are old — some dating back to the 1950s — and many have a maximum speed of just 35mph. They also need a police escort because they have no radios.

With so many staff on civilian fire duty, the RAF and navy will have to suspend operations that might lead to fires — including many defensive patrols and training flights.

Prescott’s efforts have now been blocked by Gordon Brown, the chancellor, who is understood to have balked at allowing the firefighters a rise of anywhere near 16%, let alone the 40% demanded.

His fears that a high settlement would open the floodgates to other pay demands are shared by Tony Blair and by many in business and industry.

In an interview to be broadcast today, Digby Jones, the director-general of the CBI, urges the government to “stand firm” against rising militancy in the public sector.

Speaking on the BBC’s On the Record, he will say: “Our message to this Labour government is they must stand firm at this very crucial moment for the British economy and for the future of the country.”

This weekend Gilchrist was still in discussions with his members but this week’s strike now seems likely.

[canberra]

i was suprised when i saw a loady in the raf news doing fire training. what next for aircrew, guard duty? but on a serious note it does show how overstretched the forces are. but i wonder how many people from strike and ptc( does that stand for pressed trousers?) hq's are on op fresco? and a final point since when has the tornado been a strike aircraft, i thought the 177 was no more?

[QuidProQuo]

Just a thought....aren't we all supposed to be in this together, irrespective of branch or trade. Isn't the raison d'etre of the Royal Air Force to generate air power? And every person in the RAF is part of that equation. It is about achieving the aim, not that I am aircrew/armourer/air traffic/chef/supplier/admin/poiliceman/etc etc etc. And if we are not generating airpower, shouldn't we all pull together to do the job we are given?:confused:

[Scud-U-Like]

QPQ

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, some people (and you get them in every branch and trade) become too blinkered by their own pride and ego to see the big picture.

If the RAF and everyone in it disappeared tomorrow, the world wouldn't stop turning.

[Uncle Ginsters]

QPQ,

I also agree, but the problem here is that we, the RAF, haven't all been given ONE job - we still have to do our jobs whilst giving up ridiculous %ages of our number to ANOTHER task.....the result is not a pulling together, but a pulling apart. I'm in no doubt that the chaps and chapesses involved in Fiasco will give it their all, but B.Liar and Co. should have ever put them in this position.

Is it not that this whole thing has been caused by the spiralling cost of living in certain areas? Whilst we in the Forces have the supposed benefit of living in service accn, the brave men of the Fire (+ police, nursing, medics etc) service have to live in the communities in which they work.....this is the real reason why they could use the extra cash. If the firemen pull this off it will surely start an avalanche of public sector strikes to pull wages in line.......God help us all!

Still, at least the sky's still blue.....Doh!

UG