Fully reclining seats for everyone???

[SleeplessTraveler]

There's much concern these days about the lack of space in airplane seats, and the stress and exhaustion that results from remaining in them for long periods of time.

As a frequent business traveler, I too spent many endless, sleepless nights aboard planes on intercontinental flights, which gave me a lot of time to think about a way to solve this problem. An initial idea took the form of a conceptual design for commercial aircraft passenger cabins, a design that can provide every passenger with a fully reclining seat and far more freedom to move about.

This solution, and the added space that it provides to every traveler, may also help in reducing the number of cases of travel-related DVT, a condition that has been linked to lack of mobility during prolonged periods of time.

I'd like to know what my fellow travelers think of this concept, so if you would like to take a close look at it, I invite you to visit this website:

www.airbornehotel.com

Have a good flight... and a good night!

[sweety]

Looks far too expensive... Not sure if we mortals could afford it!? :rolleyes:

[Eboy]

I like it and would use it, but I see some issues . . .

Passengers climbing ladders would raise some liability issues.

The two or one person modules. What if I am flying my myself and don't want to be confined with some wierdo if no single units are available -- the present seating arrangements give me some more psychological "space."

The DVT points are a little hazy. There is a whole section on the site devoted to DVT, but nothing quantifying how your system would relieve this disease. Generally we can say, yes, it helps, but how much (moreover, how much of a problem is it now)? You may want to tighten this up if possible, to reduce charges of "junk science."

Anyway, I hope you satisfactorily address these issues and can make the numbers work.

[PAXboy]

I think that this is an interesting idea. There is no doubt that you will have an uphill battle to interest airlines. When something radically different comes along - 99% do not want to know.

They will be asking you to design and build enough modules to put into a real aircraft so that it can be tried out. They will expect you to do this at your expense.

I agree with the feedback (above) that one problem will be the loss of perceived space. Even though an economy cabin cramps each individual, the space above seat height is open, so that folks can see across the cabin. You are, sensibly, looking at trying to use this space. However, it is not just the perceived space that is reduced, it is actual space. If I can see the space - it is 'mine' - if I cannot see it, then it is lost to me.

Also, what numbers of people are you thinking that the a/c will be able to lift? If you pack them in three high ...???

I think that cabin crew will have some questions about getting trays of food and drinks to people whose entire body will be above their own head height?

From a regulatory point of view, they are going to be very worried about emergency procedures. Trying to make a fast exit from a machine with folks three HIGH is probably worse than folks three DEEP. How would you prevent people from leaping out of their bunks and falling onto others, already in the aisle?

You say (FAQ) that cross-circulation routes are available through modules but you do not present a diagram that explains this.

On a more humerous note ... you call your device, the Air Borne Hotel and ABH for short and say that it would improve people's physical well being. Not a bad name at all.

In the British legal system, the letters ABH are for when the accused person has inflicted 'Actual Bodily Harm', to their victim. Which is just the opposite of what you intend. ;)

Good Luck (and build some full size modules).

[gofer]

The principle is that of the couchette or sleeping car on trains.

As a very frequent flyer on these uncomfortable cattle class and business class seats - I've had many hours to think about it also - and my solution has been to change to BA, and now more and more also Singapore and Cathay, who have perfectly flat Business Class.

PaxBoy you are certainly right about security thoughts, and as the hurdle looked enormous, I just left all such thoughts in back of my mind.

On the other hand with the number of accidents being so low compared with the number of people flown, I for one would think that its probably a 1 in a million chance of having a serious problem occuring to any pax, and would personally take the risk.

A further unsolved problem is the fact that the FAA's of this world want people sitting strapped in during the start and landing phases.

Finally may I make so bold as to suggest that the idea is absolutely not new (just the execution). It was proposed by Barnes Wallace during the mid 1940's!! He even made so bold as to suggest giving people a sleeping draft of some concoction and eliminating the need for most of the cabin crew.

Enjoy:p

[knobbygb]

Now I personally would LOVE to travel in an aircraft like that (I'd even arrive hobbling, complete with walking stick, to make sure I got the single berth by the window ;) )

Problem is, I just can't see it ever happening. I, like many others, have spent countless hours cramped up in cattle-class wondering how better the space could be used, and I had thought along similar lines. I always dismissed the idea, assuming that if it hadn't been done already there were probably damn good reasons.

Just a few practical points:

Safety. Would it REALLY be possible to evacuate in the required time limits? I know having more aisles stops conjestion (proven fact), but a very small percentage of pax would actually be able to SEE the nearest exit from their bunks. If we're not allowed to even have a curtain across the cabin currently, I can't see several hundred immobile plastic partitions going down very well. That center aisle would be a very dark, confused and crowded place in a real emergency.

Pax behaviour. Imagine trying to get 300 pax into their 'seats' efficiently if they had to climb ladders? It's bad enough as it is. How would the flight attendants be able to see that everyone was where they needed to be for, say landing or turbulance? Imagine how many more would want to join the 'mile high club', prompting many complaints, I'd assume. What if someone became ill, perhaps passing out, without a neighbour to raise the alarm?

Performance. I know you'd use lightweight material, but even so, surely it'd weigh in way too heavy?

Cost. Airlines really don't care about DVT (in the current climate, but that could change). THey are happy to spend millions refitting first and business cabins, because they make a profit there. Would they be willing to do the same in economy, where they often make a loss on nearly every seat?

I think this idea COULD work, but would probably have to have a newly designed aircraft wrapped around it. Windows in the ceiling above the aisles and emergency exits better positioned are just two ideas that come to mind. Perhaps this would be a good configuration for the 'flying wing' type of design that people keep talking about? Lots of short aisles, parallell to the main axis of the a/c running out along each wing?

Good luck, and book me on the first test flight, but I won't be holding my breath. :(

[TightSlot]

Not everyone is on business - some people (families, couples etc.) actually like to sit together - does this system cater for them?

[SleeplessTraveler]

Hi, knobby!

Thanks for your kind reply and comments regarding the ABH concept!

I’m glad to know you liked the idea; it doesn’t seem strange to me that you also had thought among similar lines, after all, this is just plane common sense!

Regarding your very good points…

First off, I’d like you to know that we’ve given ample consideration to each and every one of them.

Safety: In an emergency evacuation, just pax in top-level modules will need to use the ladders, the rest can simply walk out of their modules. Pax manuals will, of course, include precise directions for emergency procedures, leaving the use of ladders only for pax who need them to abandon their modules. Also, clear signs indicating the way to the nearest exit should be placed all along the cabin.
In present configurations it’s not possible to leap over seats, so this leaves just the aisles for evacuation, and we’re positive that the ABH design’s three aisles are an enormous advantage. Also, ABH modules are designed so that pax can move across the cabin—in three levels—and reach other aisles in case one is blocked in an emergency.
All aisles should be equipped with emergency lighting in case of a power failure, and modules can even be equipped with flash lights for every pax. However, I might add that the modules have been designed in such a way as to allow a maximum degree of natural light to go through them.
Plus, ABH modules contribute to protect pax from shocks, flying objects, and fire or spraying of fuels in very much the same way that monocoque-built cockpits of Formula 1 race cars protect the pilots saving their lives in accidents of impressive violence. And there is, of course, the three-point adjustable seat belt.

Pax behavior: The three-aisle design is also of much help in this area, since it adds 50% of aisle space, increasing substantially pax’s boarding and disembarking speed. Travelers are not isolated or confined in the ABH modules’ design, so if a pax became ill—or passed out—there will always be other pax close enough to notice it. Also, modules will of course have electronic call-buttons and indicators so that flight attendants verify that all pax have their seatbelts on, and seats are ‘in the upright position’. ;)

Performance: As you have rightly said, we’ll use only the most sophisticated composite plastic materials, which are very light and strong. Also, the monocoque construction design, with multiple union/fastening points allows very light yet highly reinforced and flexible structures. Conventional seats are only attached to the aircraft’s structural elements at one point, which means they must be highly reinforced and, thus, heavier. This ensures that the ABH design will be at least as light—if not lighter—than conventional seats and hand baggage bins.
Cost: Like you said, there’s already been a change in the current climate regarding DVT and it’s become a very sensitive issue for pax, air carriers, and for the industry as a whole. On the other hand, it’s true that for those who can't afford to pay first or business class tickets, the challenge becomes getting the lowest possible airfares, even at the expense of personal space and comfort, since a few extra inches of leg room really don't make a difference in a long-haul flight, and reducing them can cut down costs and, consequentially, airfares. But now, with ABH, there is an option and travelers would gladly pay a little more—in case they had to—to be able to fly in a much more comfortable, safer, healthier, and more dignified way. These two combined factors may change the airlines position regarding economy class cabins and pax.
Just as you’ve pointed out, the ABH system CAN work because its design has taken into consideration every possible factor and in the end provides the best solution for the problems and limitations we have all experienced on long-haul flights.

Thank you very much for taking the time to review the ABH concept and for giving is your valuable points of view. We’ll certainly make sure you’re booked on the first flight, and hope we don’t have to hold our breath too long!!!

Hi, TightSlot!

Yes, the ABH system also caters to people who travel together. In fact, 12 out of every 20 modules in economy class and 8 out of every 14 modules in business class are double seat-bed modular units, to accommodate either one or two persons. This feature allows for two persons traveling together, or for those who travel with children, to share a modular compartment. Plus, double seat-bed units are designed in such a manner that two persons unrelated to each other may also occupy them comfortably, and each seat-bed can be operated independently. This and more information—and images—can be found in the Concept section of the ABH website at: http://www.airbornehotel.com

Thanks for your reply! :)

[DistantRumble]

couple of points :

- this is excellent stuff. A lot of thought went into this.


let me address a couple of issues

- weight - no airline has yet specified the max seating density for a 744 so there's room there.
- evacuation speed - don't worry about it... the airlines don't (they say they do , but they don't . If you think I'm wrong please post the evacuation timings for any in-service aircraft with a realistic age and fitness profile for the evacuees )
- a golden chance to make the seats face backwards.
- as for safety - this would be a lot safer as the runners down the middle would allow for much better anchoring of seats. (bottom AND top) .

[PAXboy]

Sleepless, I take in good faith your insistence that emergency access is improved by three aisles. What puzzles me slightly is that you talk about more space for each pax and yet more space in the aisles? Does all of this 'free space' really exist in aircraft today??

I understand that your view that these modules can be retro fitted to any machine but think that the point about an all new air-frame design, to take best advantage of them.

Once again, good luck.

[SleeplessTraveler]

Hi PAXboy!

Thanks for your kind replies and interest in this ABH concept, as well as for taking the time to write.

Regarding your likewise very good points…

Aisles and seats in the ABH system are wider than in conventional cabin layouts because there are less seats put across the cabin. For example, in a Boeing 747 using a conventional layout there are 10 seats across the cabin, while in the ABH system there are only 8 seats across the cabin at floor level, which makes room for considerably wider seats, wider aisles and, of course, one more aisle.

I agree with you that the space over pax seats in conventional cabins can be considered to be ‘yours’ in a way; however, instead of having that space above you—as well as a seatback right in front of you at head level—wouldn’t you prefer having the advantage of being able to lie down and sleep comfortably during a long-haul flight, especially during one of those really long 10 or 15 hour flights?

Thanks again for your interest and good wishes. :)

Hi, DistantRumble!

Many thanks for replying!

Excellent point on safety.

About the seats facing backwards… hmmm… hadn’t really thought of that, guess there will have to be a vote on that one!!! ;)

Cheers!

[brockenspectre]

BUT

while I think I would like the idea of my own "honeycomb hotel room" aloft I would also like there to be a lounge area on board where one can stretch legs, grab something to drink and generally socialise...oh and throw in the on-board manicurist!

One would need to be assured that the hygiene and cleaning of such a wee space would be waaaaaaaay better than the quick brush and clean-over of my normal seat (such a confined area would breed bugs wonderfully!) ...

On the other hand ...if folks really want to be that private then perhaps they should just hire their own jets!

Maybe the real solution to avoid obnoxious flying neighbours is to ensure that all pax go through a cleanliness and etiquette test before they are allowed to fly - then one might have a chance at not being next to some smelly person with absolutely no sense of decorum or good manners!!! or am I missing the point?

:D

(kind of just kidding!)

[PAXboy]

B'spec: "Maybe the real solution to avoid obnoxious flying neighbours is to ensure that all pax go through a cleanliness and etiquette test before they are allowed to fly." :D :D :D

The sooner this is brought in for all flights NOW, the better the world will be!

Sleepless: I was not criticising the loss of 'my' space above my head, rather trying to set out the kind of arguments that you will encounter.

If such a system as yours was available today - I would try it without hesitation. My questions about security and evacuation are, again, based on what I expect you will find people saying. So your question: "wouldn't you prefer having the advantage of ..." does not actually come into it, as I have already accepted your premise and thought it worth trying!

As to the rearward facing seats - YES. This has been proved to reduce injuries with incidents such as running off the end of the runway or other sudden stops on the ground. No one wants to tell customers how much safer they would be - if they faced backwards! On a trip LHG ~ HAM in Dec. 1975 (I think!) they were experimenting with this and the first six (or so) rows of Y were reversed.

They asked for volunteers to sit in them and complete a questionnaire. I did so and found it no different to normal. The take off was, of course, a different sensation but no problem at all and my feedback was supportive.

[SLF]

Sleepless

Very interesting, does the height of 3 units fit in a typical 744, or do you intrude into the cargo space? I'd certainly give it a go, having had the luxury of one flight in BA club beds, its the only way to travel!

Didn't notice tray tables, and share previous concerns that weight will almost certainly be up per pax. Suspect that you should try JAL... :D :D

[Rollingthunder]

I imagine the modules go in as singles for assembly?
Can see some obstacles to be overcome as far as maintenance checks and turn around servicing requirements.

BA has a clever ad running on television, this side of pond.

Times Square, New York City. A regular household type bed, bedside table and lamp set up on the median in the middle of the street. The night time lights of neon and traffic are all around.

Gent climbs into the bed, says good night and turns off the lamp. Lamp goes off and so do all the neon signs and vehicle lights....fade to black.

tick tick tick

Fades in to dawn light, bed now on Piccadilly Circus, pigeons scatter, Routemaster bus rumbles by.

Gent gets out of bed and says, Good morning.

[SleeplessTraveler]

Brockenspectre,

Looks like we’re thinking along the same lines, this can be found in the FAQ section of the ABH website:

“How will food and beverages be distributed?

Food and beverages will be distributed in easy to handle containers; hot drink containers will be spill-proof to avoid injury. Also, passengers will have permanent access to a self-service snack bar; this will take much pressure off flight attendants and, thus, help them to provide an even better service to every passenger.”

Hmmm... I’m not sure about the manicurist though…

Thanks for your reply! :)

PAXboy:

Very interesting what you mention about the rearward facing seats. As you say, the only part of the flight that could feel a bit strange is the take off. The good thing about the ABH system is that seats could face forward, rearward, or there could be both options in the same cabin.

Cheers! :)

SFL:

Regarding your question…

Yes, the height of three unit fits in a typical 747, thus not invading the aircraft’s cargo space.

This is what’s written about tray tables in the Comfort and Safety Features section of the ABH site’s Concept page:

“Integrated to the hand baggage compartment is a service table which may be partially slid from its place under the hand baggage compartment in order to place objects such as books, laptops, soda cans, etc. It may also be detached completely from its slider guides, unfolding its legs to place it over the passenger's lap.”

And this is what is written regarding weight in the FAQ page:
“What makes ABH modules so strong and lightweight?
Conventional seats are only attached to the aircraft’s structural elements at one point, which means they must be highly reinforced and, thus, heavier. ABH modules' can be manufactured with state-of-the-art composite plastic materials; this feature, combined with their monocoque construction design—with multiple union/fastening points—makes for lightweight, yet highly reinforced, flexible, and resistant structures.”

Thanks for your reply, I’m glad you liked the concept! ;)

[PAXboy]

ST:
"This is what’s written about tray tables in the Comfort and Safety Features section of the ABH site’s Concept page:

“It may also be detached completely from its slider guides, unfolding its legs to place it over the passenger's lap.”

This is a very clever idea but I'm not sure that carriers would like unrestrained tables. One bump and they could travel up to the pax's face or sideways out of their cube and down to the floor or across into another cube.

We all know how difficult it is to get pax to return regular trays "to the upright and secured position". The advantage of rows is that, with a quick flick of the eyes, the F/A can see three, four or even five (767 centre) in one moment. It would not be possible to do this on your system.

You mentioned that there would be integrated lights and warning sensors, so the F/A could monitor which table was not secured but that would have to be checked individually?

[malanda]

Finally may I make so bold as to suggest that the idea is absolutely not new (just the execution). It was proposed by Barnes Wallace during the mid 1940's!!

It's even older than that. The November edition of Conde Nast Business Traveller has an article on an aircraft from 1938 (can't remember the name, but it was basically a DC-3 variant) which had 14 seats that converted into 7 beds, plus 7 pull-down beds in the ceiling.

[SleeplessTraveler]

PAXboy:

I agree with you completely, regulations would not permit unrestrained service tables. In fact, thank you for pointing this out to me, because I had forgotten to update the information regarding service tables in the ABH website.

Malanda:

Yes, you are correct, the DC-3 you speak about was the DST (Douglas Sleeper Transport) from 1935; the design was similar to that of Pullman sleeper cars on trains. Some of the many differences between this design and the ABH design are that in a DST passenger capacity was significantly reduced and, therefore, airfares were significantly higher. Also pax could not change their seats into beds individually, all seats had to be transformed into beds at the same time.

If you would like to see a picture of one of these magnificent planes, visit Bob Ingraham’s website: http://www.ingraham.ca/bob/DST.html

It’s amazing to see how old this problem really is.