Emirates delays

[Gate B40]

Have you guys been noticing a larger than usual number of delays of EK flights ex-DXB these last few weeks?
I have a friend complaining he's missed appointments in both Doha and Bahrain. Is this just bad luck on my friend's part, or are they experiencing some sort of growing pains?

Thanks for any replies!

JieFang

[Flat-Spot]

GB40, I don't know about Ek and delays, but I do know that everyone has been suffering taxi delays out of Dubai because of taxiway closures and because ATC has increased traffic sep. to 5nm from 3nm between departing aircraft, something to do with conflicting traffic ex Sharjah. By the way, rumor has it rnwy 12R and 30L will be closed again shortly for approx 3mnths. This means there is going to be a big traffic jam at the hold point...well bigger than normal!

Cheers, F-S

[sandpit]

Talking of delays in Dubai, I was inbound tonight (16th/17th) and were advised we were no. 1 make best speed. A couple of minutes later no. 2 and slow to 280 and a few minutes after that no. 3 slow to 250. This is outside 100 DME. We still ended up with lengthening vectors and 4 holds before being cleared for approach and then told to make best speed as there was 25 miles between us and preceeding traffic and no departures!

I've been in Dubai over 10 years now and tonight was the worst display of controlling I have seen. Maybe there were reasons, but they sure weren't obvious.

Yes there are also lots of taxi delays, especially around 8am when about a dozen or so flights leave together.

[Big_Yellow_Bird]

Does DXB ever operate both parallel runways at the same time? I have flown in and out of there a number of times and 30R is closed for maintenance while 30L used for T/O and Landings or visa versa. Whenever one is in use, the other seems to be out for maintenance. I think once I landed on 12L while 12R had traffic taking off, yet not long after I saw all traffic taking off and landing on 12R.

Does the airport have a problem that when the airport is congested, ie 10pm-2/3am with lots of landing and departing traffic? By this I mean that is there a problem when there is a stack of planes on final and aircraft have to cross a runway to get to 30R/12L for departure? Or if aircraft are using 30L/12R for departure, do aircraft have a problem crossing that runway to taxi in after landing on 30R/12L?

By reading what I wrote, I know it might sound like a load of giberish, but I am just wandering if that during times of heavy landing and departing traffic DXB ever uses one dedicated T/O runway and one dedicated for arrivals? It is common practice at other major airports, but Ive just never seen that system in opperation at DXB.

Cheers

[ferris]

Although I wasn't on (obviously, if it was the worst controlling you'd seen;) ), my sources tell me; 1. there may be some politics going on which causes increased spacing at the moment. 2. the flow system into Dubai needs looking at- it works via gates, instead of via aircraft at the threshold (or the total arriving traffic, as in the rest of the world)- but we do as we are told. 3. the area guys' plan can be dashed in seconds, as approach can call up and ask for increased spacing at the drop of a hat- the area guy achieves 10nm spacing between the current arrivals, then is suddenly told to provide 30nm spacing to app. (as happened in this case). The only option is to hold.

We may not like it (as I'm sure you don't), but we do as we are ordered. Either way, a delay would have been needed for your arrival, the way it is achieved is another thing. Things will only improve if you complain via the proper channels.

[sandpit]

Ferris, nothing personal meant. It was just last night was the worst night I have seen coming in to Dubai by far. I am sure there were reasons that I don't know. I'm sure you don't sit planning how to screw up my approach!

But the constant changes and with the limited (obvious) traffic in front of us (we were told we were no. 3 and took over 20 minutes delay) then when finally cleared to find 25 miles separation, it was all pretty frustrating! The area guy was obviously under a lot of stress and a bit flustered by it all as half a dozen more aircraft arrived right behind us. Unfortunately one of my colleagues wasn't making it any easier for him either - sorry
:(

Re DXB runways. Second runway (12R/30L) has been closed about a week now, although it was open the other morning (8am peak) to facilitate departures. So yes they certainly use 2 runways when they can.

[ferris]

Check your PMs.

[Flat-Spot]

BYB,
Yep, Dubai uses one runway for arrivals and one for departures. (Eg 12R for depts and 12L for arrivals or 30L for depts and 30R arrivals) At present, both runways are open except in the morning (approx 9am to 11am) when works parties are sent on to one runway at a time, to re-paint lines or replace light bulbs...this is because its a 'quiet' period. Regarding the traffic, Dubai becomes very hectic at night...loads of traffic arriving around 1am and leaving traffic at around 3am. Then the Emirates rush at around 8am.
Also, I've never had a problem crossing the parallel to get to the gate, however I have on a few occassions (pre the publication of the STARS) held at an intersection called Desdi so the approach controller got his spacing. Either way, Dubai is getting more and more busy by the day and I take my hat off to the controllers for coping with the stress...certainly not a job I could do!!

Cheers,

F-S.

[ferris]

Please don't be afraid to post about things that happen. It can only help everyone's understanding if these things get sorted out.

[Flat-Spot]

Ferris, if something 'outside of the box' does, I will!!! By the way, ask your source about traffic jams during low vis ops..and I'm not talking about aircraft...I nearly got caught in one the other morning quite impressive really, looked like the jams you see approaching the Garhoud Bridge during rush hour...

F-S

[Alphaprot]

DXB ATC, now there is a subject, I don't know who sets policy, cause the controllers definitely have the ability (apart from the rather emotional young new chappie who was on the other morning who thru all his toys out of the pram for five minutes)
Where do you start ATIS.............
It is a distraction, pure and simple, we do not have all the time in the world to listen to it. With a meagre range of 200 miles, it coincides with our busy period, if you miss the important stuff because of a radio call, then another 2 minutes is needed to hear the active runway or the weather. Everywhere else in the world can cut it to 20 or 30 seconds why cant DXB?
Flow control, chaotic, pure and simple Einstein could of developed a theory on this one!
With all the talent in the ATC, some of the best equipment and facilities in the area, why is it not a lot better?
Who is in charge?

[ernestkgann]

Arrived the other day at Dubai and 30L/12R was closed with very big white crosses painted on it. It look as if it may be closed for some time. Does anyone know how long?

[Flat-Spot]

Rumour has it 30L/12R is closed for 3 months.

I fully agree with Alphaprot I think Dubai Atis should be submitted to the Guinness book of records for being the longest in the world! In fact by the time you've finished copying it and called ATC with whatever the info is, it has usually changed.


F-S

[ferris]

I will find out the exact timeframe for the runway closure. From memory it is 4 weeks.

The flow system (and I use the term loosely) was not designed by the controllers. It was imposed upon us from above. Though we don't like it, we do as we are told. Change will not come from within. It is up to you guys.

[Flat-Spot]

Ferris, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't some of the flow control probs. due to Dubai 'RADAR' (Approach and Dept) having to control traffic for both SHJ and DXB?

[ferris]

No, nothing to do with it. It is the system that is flawed. See your PMs.

[Flat-Spot]

Thanks Ferris, pls chk your private msgs.

[Big_Yellow_Bird]

Im not entirely sure how the system works around the UAE under IFR as I have only done a lot of private flying around the UAE. However, on 2 occasions when returning towards DXB from RAK, there was some communication problems between Dubai Approach and Sharjah Tower. On both occasions I was flying at 1500' and approximately 15 DME from SHJ. I was on Dubai approach and when approaching SHJ I was told to contact them. I called SHJ Tower and after a brief message to the controller I was told

"Fox Tango you should not be with me, please contact Dubai Approach."

I explained I was already handed off to SHJ, however the controller insisted I go back to approach.

I called Dubai Approach again and explained I was told to turn back to this frequency. This was followed by a rather frustrating response from the controller.

"Negative Fox Tango, please call SHJ Tower 118.6."

This response was followed by a rather angry sounding mumble from the controller.

Slightly confused, I called back SHJ Tower, explaining that Approach had insisted I should be with SHJ. The controller was not a happy bunny. Surprisingly, the controller began his reply with.

"My God, there goes approach playing their little games again."

After all that fuss and confusion I must have only been 8 DME out and was cleared to cross SHJ.

This may not have anything to do with delays into Dubai, but after hearing the above first hand I was wandering if there is ever a lack of communication between the different control stations. I have done a lot of flying out of DXB and normally the controllers do a stand up job with everything, especially if they have to try and squeeze myself in a warrior into DXB while there are heaps of jets taking off and landing at night. But on this occasion I found everything to be quite odd.

Do any of you guys ever experience problems in communication between different control centres while on approach?

Cheers

BYB

[newswatcher]

12L/30R currently NOTAM'd closed until 13:00hrs on 21 Nov 2002 - A0416/02

[Flat-Spot]

BYB, as I remember it, (because I don't have the Jepps to hand or come to think of it, the AIP) the SHJ and DUB CTZ's are surface to 1500' on top of which the Dubai CTA begins. Therefore I would suggest that at 1500' for crossing SHJ centreline / extended centreline, you should be with SHJ tower any higher then you would be with Dubai Radar and of course SHJ doesn't know you are up there.
Regarding the above, I suggest you ask one of the instructors at EFS for a copy of the plan view of DUB and SHJ CTZ from the AIP.

Cheers,

F-S

[Alphaprot]

Flow control is obviously not designed by the controllers, no sane controller would implement such an unwieldy system, I have a high respect for most of the controllers in the region they do a good job considering their hands are tied.
However there are one or two fairly inexperienced ones who get a bit too emotional from time to time, this is as about as appropriate as a lippy pilot on the other end. Keep emotion off the airwaves.
Oh and please change the ATIS please, please, please, distraction in the cockpit is one of the largest causal factors in incidents and accidents, making a process longer than needed is not clever.

[Albert of Arabia]

Dubai ATC are working to the rules that they are given. When some of these rules don't make much sense it results in something of a shambles. Having to use LVP's when it's only a CAT 1 approach. Having UAE centre based in AUH, when Dubai probably has triple the heavy heavy traffic than the rest of the UAE put together. Having minimum radar seperation altered without consulting what the controllers want. Having three controllers suspended at the same time for minor infringements of these 'modified' proceedures. etc etc. Yep, it's a balls-up at busy/foggy times, but it's not really the controllers fault. If enough of us put it on paper, maybe something will happen. The added fuel bill will probaly be more effective at forcing change though.

[druckmefunk]

Albert,
That sounds like a company i have worked for. Introduce stupid rules, then make an example of the first guy who makes a mistake so that every one else shuts up and toes the line. Then call it progress.

[ferris]

Your attention is drawn to UAE AIC No 1 of 2002.

[4HolerPoler]

Errr, Ferris, for those of us without a UAE AIC tucked away on the bookshelf please provide illumination of said document.

Riveting stuff, I'm sure.

4HP

[ferris]

Basically says; Your call is important to us, but all our operators are busy..........


No, really it offers contact details for complaints about any ATC professionalism issues (inviting complaints). It's issued by the Director, Air Nav Services. Good luck.....

[RIKET]

Regarding the 3nm/5nm sep’s:

Ferris, thanx for the Area Control perspective.

The GCAA have made some conditions for Dubai to get 3nm sep’s back.

This involves the Approach controllers now using two different radar displays, one set at 60nm range scale for the longer range stuff and another that may not be used for a range scale greater than 30nm. The requirement is that we only use 3nm sep’s on the 30nm scope.

There are some adaptation issues that require getting used to on the ATC side. I "expect" that 3nm sep’s will be back no later than the first week in November. However, operators can expect some (limited) restrictions when you are a little further from the airfield, because of the use of two displays to separate traffic depending on their position(s).

The ATC's at Dubai will "probably" be just a little bit careful to start with, as many of us have not worked multi-display before.

I have no comment regarding the if's, but's, why's or why not's of this whole situation.

Dubai ATC is trying to manage under fluctuating circumstances.

Ultimately, your safety is our priority.

Riket