Am I mad to want to fly professionally?

[Footsie]

Title says it all...

I'm 33 and just starting my PPL. Married, 3 kids, huge mortgage. Top of my career, own business, six figure income. And bored, very bored. Can't stand the thought of doing this for another 30 years.

I've always wanted to fly, and recently I've been thinking about going beyond PPL and doing this professionally. Sure the state of the job market bothers me, but I believe that people will always want to fly and as such the market will bounce back.

What really bothers me is the attitude of some of the pros, as seen on other forums. Guys who are doing what we are all desperate to do, and being paid for it, seem to have the same moans as people in 'normal' jobs. Over things like pay and conditions, management, pension rights etc. etc. Are they representative of pro flyers generally?

The description for this forum says something like 'beats working for a living'. Surely doing something you're passionate about more than makes up for the peripheral aspects of a job? I know this may sound naive, but for me the only upside of flying over my current job is that I'm passionate about it. Until I saw some PPruNe posts, I thought this was enough to more than cover the downsides.

So, am I mad to want to do this? Is flying really just a means of paying the mortgage?

[Maximum]

Hi Footsie.

This is somewhat of a pet topic of mine, so I apologise in advance if I go on a bit...

I don't wish to put a downer on your dreams, but at the same time I'd like to try and give you a realistic picture of things.

I'm one of the pro flyers of whom you speak. You say: What really bothers me is the attitude of some of the pros, as seen on other forums. Guys who are doing what we are all desperate to do, and being paid for it, seem to have the same moans as people in 'normal' jobs. Over things like pay and conditions, management, pension rights etc. etc. Are they representative of pro flyers generally?

Now with all due respect, don't you think you're being just a trifle naive? Of course we have the same moans as people in"normal" jobs. We are just "normal" human beings after all.

To try and put it in a nutshell for you, think of something pleasurable you love doing, and think of being paid to do it. Sounds great. Too good to be true. Now think of someone deciding when, and how often you have to do it. Obviously there would come a point when it would cease to be a pleasure. Well, this is one of the reasons the pros complain - the constant battle between what the company wants from them versus the line at which it all becomes a grind.

Are they representative of pro flyers generally? Well, obviously when someone posts on pprune they have a vested interest in convincing others of their own particular beliefs, myself included. But basically, anyone giving you the impression that pilots go to work every day grinning from ear to ear is kidding you.

As someone who isn't a pilot, let alone a professional pilot, you have no way of knowing what the job is actually like, day in, day out. So the advice of the pros is all you've got to go on - if you sense that some are disgruntled, take it seriously - there is a reason. Don't get caught in the wanabee trap that you actually love flying much more than these people and you wouldn't be moaning if only you were sitting in the right hand seat of something, anything......it just doesn't work that way.

It might be a great novelty at first......but after two years? Five years? Ten years? The skills and responsibilities in this job are high, but a lot of it is very mind numbing routine - but routine that you can't get wrong.

The most enjoyable flying I've done hasn't been professional. For example, learning to fly on Bulldogs - low level circuits, formation flying, aerobatics. Hovering a Bell 47 solo for the first time. Autorotations to the ground. Transitions. Quickstops.

So what am I rambling on about? Well, once it becomes professional, ie, once you're employed as a pilot, it all becomes a lot more serious. Manipulating the controls is about a quarter of it. Think paperwork, constant checking of your abilities and fatigue. It becomes a job.

Don't get me wrong, I love flying, but.....I've said it before, if I could, I'd earn a sh*t load of money, and fly for my own pleasure, what I want, where I want, when I want. If you're in the position to do this, I'd seriously question the point of becoming a pro.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Hey Maximum,

Fair point about us wannabes not really knowing the true nature of commercial piloting. However, do you know the true nature of working in an office for 15 years? The pointless grind, the politics, the need to spend a few extra hours in the office each day just to keep up appearances even though you can do your job within 6 of the normal 8 hours a day, the motivational speeches (giving and receiving). People saying things like "let's network", "let's out-source personnel", "let's sing of the same hym sheet", "we need synergy people!" every weekly management meeting is just too much.

There comes a time when anything, just about anything is better. Irregular hours? Working away from different bases? Having to be competant? Sounds like bliss to me! A job with pressure where the pressure is real and not generated by the need to get the invoice in by the end of the third quarter because the previous quarter's figures were bad.

I hope I don't come across as flipant, I just wanna say the 'normal' careers suck ten times more than the magnitude of the difficulties as you have described :)

[scroggs]

And you would seriously suggest that those things don't happen in airlines?! This is business, just like yours. We have the same characters and similar yukspeak. We get away from it to some degree whilst flying, but it's always there to meet us on the ground. As Maximum says, the bit in the air is a lot less wonderful than it might appear from where you stand.

We also all have our pressing responsibilities at home - kids, mortgage, oncoming retirement, etc. etc. Like most people, our financial commitments constantly threaten to overtake our available income, and our companies' demand of our time constantly threatens the stability and harmony of our domestic life.

This is a good job. It has big responsibilities, a great view, and it can pay well, but it is a just a job. Keep that in mind.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Scroggs,

Thanks for the perspective:


And you would seriously suggest that those things don't happen in airlines?!

Well I imagine it is a matter of degrees but point taken.


As Maximum says, the bit in the air is a lot less wonderful than it might appear from where you stand.

Understood. I never really consider any job to be wonderful in that sense of the word. After all we only accept being told how to conduct our lives and what to do because we need to the money at the end of the day. Maybe I should rephrase to "vastly more interesting!" :)


...our companies' demand of our time constantly threatens the stability and harmony of our domestic life.

Can you expand on this for me. Given that there is a max of 900hrs a year flight time - and I expect the airline to make the most of that. How much time should one expect to be 'at work' or 'on duty'?

Cheers!
Kef

[monkeyboy]

I like this thread. Good starter, Footsie.

It appeals to my Yorkshire "Tell it how it is" sense of thinking. None of this "wrap it up in cotton wool" bull.

Some very strong cases from both sides of the fence.

More!

[AMEX]

Can you expand on this for me. Given that there is a max of 900hrs a year flight time - and I expect the airline to make the most of that. How much time should one expect to be 'at work' or 'on duty'?
Not talking about the airlines but about the small operator I work for. This is what I do.
Monday to Friday, I check in at 8:00 am and check out at 18:30 (when all goes well).
That's 10:30 duty. I will do that 5 times a week which brings me to the max allowable duty of 55 hours.
Then I must have a day off.
Flying wise, I do 2:30 a day so for 55 hours at the "office", I fly 12 hours (the rule we go by is 55 hours in a 7 days period/95 in a two weeks period so once in a while must have an extra day off).
No way I can reach the 900 hours limit but I am always on the Max permissible duty.
FYI, I am away from home all day long and don't return to my homebase before the evening comes.
On top of that, I will sometimes end up doing a flight during my week end/days off on short notice only. Hard to plan anything if you see where I come from.
Don't get me wrong, I have done some office work (not for long thanks god) and other ground jobs but if 900 hours doesn't seem much from an industry outisder's perspective, the job can mean a lot of time at work and being ablsolutely nackered when you get home.
This can put a lot of strains on your relationship, family and this is something hard to put a price tag on. I like many, haven't got anything like that but whether it is a good thing or not, it is you to decide for yourself, bearing in mind that the choice won't be yours anyway.
I love what I do but when you come across the fence, don't expect things to be perfect because there is a lot going on beside the fun bit we call flying.
Be also prepared to earn less and in some cases much less than the UK National average income for a fair while (£23000pa).

I'd say if all one wants is fun flying, get a well paid job and get yourself a share in a warbird or buy your own plane. Many people have done it and I have no doubt they ver little regret.

Not my choice but not a bad option at all

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Certifiable!

:D

[please]

It all depends on your attitude. As Marcus Aurelius once said, "You consist of three things: your body, your life and your mind. Only the last is subject wholly to your control." If you go to work looking at all the negative parts of your job, then all you'll end up doing is whinging and moaning about them. When you consider how few people in the world actually have a choice as to what they do, professional pilots would realise just how lucky they are.
Every day, I go to work I thank the Lord for being able to fly, and for getting paid to do it. So my advice to you, Footsie, is go for it. :)

[Maximum]

Oh dear. I can feel my blood starting to boil as it always does when this topic comes up. And I always tell myself not to get involved..................but.....................;)

Look, two important things before I go on:

1.) I love flying aeroplanes, so I'm just like you ok.

2.) I'm not trying to spoil anybody's dream.

However, I'm trying to tell you how it is for the average airline pilot in the UK.

Understood. I never really consider any job to be wonderful in that sense of the word. Maybe I should rephrase to "vastly more interesting!"

You see, this is the problem - how do you know my job is "vastly more interesting" than yours? You assume or expect it to be so - but you don't actually know.

Now if you said to me you just have to fly professionally, you just know you have to, and you don't care what you fly, as long as you're up there in the sky flying, then I don't have a problem. But as soon as you start comparing it to other jobs, or looking for verification from others that flying would be a good thing to do, then I do start to wonder about your motivation.

You know what a lot of professional flying is about? Apart from lots of between a rock and a hard place decision making? Looking out at a white sky, autopilot engaged, watching the second hand on the clock slowly counting off each minute, with only another three and a half hours to go. You left home at eight pm for the airport, kissed your wife and baby son goodbye, and it's now five in the morning and your comimg back from the eastern med. The sun's up, your eyes sting, and all you want to do is sleep. You've drunk too much coffee to keep awake, your stomach aches, and you've got nothing in common with the bloke next to you. Repeat ad nauseum.

And the good bit? Disconnecting the autopilot and keeping a load of needles or numbers on dials or screens exactly where they should be. I'm not being funny either. I love that. The precision of instrument flying. Altitude and speed nailed. But remember, what that equates to is looking at an instrument panel and taking great pleasure from the fact that the numbers and needles read what you want them to read. Dead exciting huh? Then you break cloud and land.

The pointless grind, the politics, the need to spend a few extra hours in the office each day just to keep up appearances even though you can do your job within 6 of the normal 8 hours a day, the motivational speeches (giving and receiving). People saying things like "let's network", "let's out-source personnel", "let's sing of the same hym sheet", "we need synergy people!" every weekly management meeting is just too much.

As Scroggs says, you seriously think we don't suffer this in the airlines? Get real! This is a mega-bucks, cut-throat down to the wire money making business, run by some of the hardest nosed b*st**ds you're ever likely to come across! The pilots are just like any other part of the workforce and suffer the same bulls**t as everyone else!

And finally.......

Given that there is a max of 900hrs a year flight time - and I expect the airline to make the most of that. How much time should one expect to be 'at work' or 'on duty'?

Typical shorthaul lifestyle:

Depending on company, 8 to 10 days off a month. However, before you say, "well that's normal", consider the fact you will be doing very disruptive shift work.

5 to 6 days of work, followed by 2 or 3 days off. Repeat.

Days off often start with you arriving home at 11 pm, then leaving for work after days off at 0430 am. So days off aren't quite what they seem.

Typical day, alarm rings at 0400 am, leave house at 0430 am. Four or five sectors. Home at about 5 pm. To get eight hours sleep, have to be asleep in bed by 8 pm. So three hours available to change, eat, say hello to wife and kids, socialise, exercise, etc. Repeat.

Of course, could be night stopping, maybe three times a week, so don't see family. Catch up with all domestic problems in remaining time. Repeat.

On lates, just rotate clock so end up getting home or to hotel at around eleven at night. Repeat.

In summer, throw in night charters. (See above).

Add hassle and sometimes fear provided by winter weather. And take it from me, fear experienced in order to earn money just ain't exciting. It's just plain puckering fear.

And finally finally (honest)......

Once you're in that left hand seat, that's basically it......you just keep doing the same old thing 'till you stop.

I knew I'd go on too long. Not trying to spoil anyones dreams (see 1.) and 2.) above) - just adding another perspective.

Good luck.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Maximum,

Great response and I thank you for your time in composing a very clear picture of what you do. Get involved - please :) Me personally - I am not here to argue just to get a good picture from guys like you of just what the hell I am stepping into.


Now if you said to me you just have to fly professionally, you just know you have to, and you don't care what you fly, as long as you're up there in the sky flying, then I don't have a problem. But as soon as you start comparing it to other jobs, or looking for verification from others that flying would be a good thing to do, then I do start to wonder about your motivation.

I admit it...I am naive in matters aviation and you are correct in questioning my motivation. I question it on a daily basis! That £40,000 soon to not be burning a hole in pocket ensures that :) However, I am suitably satisfied that once questioned I find I am just as set on this path as before :D

It is difficult to explain just why I want to fly. If I try an rationalise it I just come out the trite statements I previoiusly made. The trigger was me wanting a change, professional flying never occured to me before (just recreational - a lifelong dream), but once the idea stuck...it stuck. One needs a tangible reason to spend this sort of money on training and to take this kind of risk. Saying to myself "I just want to fly" just does not seem to cut it...but that is what it boils down to.

Can I ask what made you guys (Scroggs, Maximum, anybody) make a beeline for commercial flying?


Add hassle and sometimes fear provided by winter weather. And take it from me, fear experienced in order to earn money just ain't exciting. It's just plain puckering fear.

My idea of fear right now is a stapler misfire! Seriously, If I say I hadn't thought about the tricky situations and the outright danger of flying I would be lying. Hasn't put me off one iota :)

Great thread Footsie and thanks very much for providing your insights guys (Scroggs, Max and AMEX) .

Cheers,
Kef.

[Footsie]

Guys

Thanks for your great replies. Some real 'from the heart' stuff. For those of us who are seriously considering doing this, it's wonderfully helpful that there are people willing to be as honest as you all are.

I was never so naive as to think that, 10 years into flying, I'd have absolutely no moans. That's human nature. After a while, you compare yourself to people you perceive (and that 'perceive' bit is key) are having a better time than you. Now if it happens to be golf clubs you're comparing, then you can find out that the grass isn't actually any greener without too much lost. But if it's careers we're talking about, especially £50,000 to train/no guarantee of a job, then it's a lot more serious.

There's this conflict in me between my heart, which says 'go for it - you've always wanted to do this', and my head, which says 'think of what you're giving up.' Pro flyers I've spoken to fall into two camps - those that say 'draw up a list of pros and cons and see which is longer', and those that say 'go with your heart'.

The way I look at it, for the really big decisions in life, e.g. choosing a spouse,a home or whether to have kids, you tend to go with your heart. For everything else, you rationalise, i.e. lists of pros and cons. I certainly rationalised my career - I knew I could be my own boss, choose where I work, who I work with, it would be well paid etc. The only negative was that I never found the work interesting.

For me, flying is the polar opposite. I can't choose my hours, my boss, where I work, away from home a lot, pay is lower etc. The list of pros and cons does not favour flying.

Maximum, you're absolutely right. How can someone who isn't even PPL at the moment know what it's like to fly professionally? That's why your insights are so helpful. We can't find out without some serious changes, so it's essential we do the research. But ultimately, is the research going to change the heart?

Please, I agree that attitude is so important. There's a great book called 'Fish' about how even the most mundane of jobs can be made enjoyable if you choose to enjoy them. And my current job certainly isn't the most mundane. I guess it also works the other way - even the best job can become intolerable if you have the wrong attitude.

When we look at pay and conditions, the problem pilots face is basic economics - there is more supply than there is demand. That means the employer calls the shots. For as long as the job appears attractive from the outside, people like me, Kef and the rest will try to get in, even if it costs us a packet. So, you can choose your response to that, at least to a degree. Put another way, would it be better to have an awful job that nobody wanted to do, and as a consequence the pay and conditions were great?

Pay etc. is often described in economics as 'compensation' - and that's a good way of thinking about it. Are you rewarded for your skills and responsibility, or are you compensated for the risk, danger and antisocial hours? An economist would tell you that people will accept less compensation when they minimise the pain of giving up control of their time by doing something they enjoy.

I'd like to second Kef's point and ask Maximum, Scroggs etc. - what decision process did you follow when choosing to fly? And perhaps one other question - is it harder making a career change, at 30 something, with associated baggage, than going straight in at 20 something or younger? Or are we oldies perhaps more aware of how lucky we are if we do get a place, having had the chance of comparing flying to another career?

[Flamgat]

Hi Footsie

Interesting replies.

I flew for 32 years before I lost my medical, everything from Military to freelance charter to the airlines and some night freight work.

Yes I agree there are times when we bitch about things, the same as deskbound workers, but when you can't do it anymore like what happened to me, then you miss it a damn lot more than the times when you were bitching.

Yes! Ive been scared in thunderstorms or when the ice is building up so fast you're wondering if the deicing systems will get rid of it before you fall out of the sky, but isn't that part of the reason we chose the profession.

There is something in every pilot that loves flying, and that's what made you chose flying, otherwise you would have latched onto something profession. Yes it does eventually just become a job to pay the mortgage, but to those that are negative about their jobs, I would like to just like to ask one question.

If you had to start again at the beginning would you do it again?

For me the answer is a definate YES! Some of the things slightly differently, but I would suck up the "s***" again willingly, to experience the joy that I have had from aviation.

So if it is such a passion, I say go for it. If you never try you will spend the rest of your life wondering if you should have! If you don't like it, nothing is chaining you to the job, change it again.

Maybe there will be a few lost years, but that is nothing compared to the misery of not ever having tried.

[AMEX]

From Flamgat
If you had to start again at the beginning would you do it again?
My answer is a most definite YES !!!

Moans and groans come with any job but I must say, each time I get to the airport, I can feel the buzz growing inside me and each time I start those engines, it's like my first solo and at the last landing of the day put a conclusion to a great day at work :D:D

In answer to the following:
what decision process did you follow when choosing to fly?
My answer may appear a bit simplistic but as far as I can remember there is nothing else I ever had any greater interest in. It was a passion and still is but I am lucky enough to have been able to transform it into a job I can earn a living from.
So from my youngest age when I was learning the ICAO alphabet from The Encyclopedia of Aviation I had received as a present, until today, there has never been any doubt in my mind about which career to choose.

[scroggs]

Why did I choose this particular journey through life? Dunno, really! I come from an RAF family, my dad was a pilot and his dad was WW2 aircrew. When the prospect of self-financing life became unavoidable at about 21, it was the obvious thing to do. I wore glasses (still do), so I never really considered pilot. But someone persuaded me that I should put 'pilot' and 'navigator' down as second and third choices after 'engineer' on my application. For reasons purely of vanity, I cheated in the eye test and passed the medical as fit for aircrew. On being informed that I could be assessed for entry as pilot, which paid more than engineer, I naturally said, 'OK, let's do it'. The RAF offered me the job a few days later.

Of course, they found out their medical error a few months later (I couldn't find my aircraft on the line!), but after paying for some extremely stylish (not) glasses for me, they let me continue. 22 years and 8000 hours later, I had to consider the prospects of retirement from the RAF at 55, or a switch to civilian life and the chance to continue to 65. As my kids will be 15 and 14 when I'm 55, it was a no-brainer. Next stop a Virgin 747 rhs. Now I'm on the A340.

Fact is, I love my job - but my expectations weren't unrealistic. How could they be after all those, occasionally very exciting, years in the military? Now my priorities include things I'd never considered before, like the chance of retiring alive rather than being buried while my kids were still young! Routine and boredom was the price I paid for security (relatively) and survival. I'm OK with the idea of reading all the newspapers every working day. I now drink decaf, and I exercise a lot to try and keep the overfed waistline under control. I get to socialise with some interesting people in some nice hotels. I see my kids about once a week.

However, I can now reasonably expect to be still around in 18 years time when I finally give up flying for good. I shall miss it hugely but, thanks to modern automation and routine, probably not as much as I now miss the real flying I used to do!

[lennyzaman]

I'm 16(well allmost 17 :D)
i have NO relations to aviators or any of that kind
i was 7 when i looked up to see my first airplane... a 747-100(Sabena) coming in to land at EBBR(Brussels)
i kept it in my mind.
when i was 13 i tried in some short glider flights, i loved it.
i'm 16 now, after this year of school i'll have finished me secundary education.
I intend to become Airline pilot. It may seem dull, but i actually do like watching the needles and gauges keep constant for hours and i have this feeling inside me that the only thing i want to do is fly. I cannot imagine myself being cramped back over a desk working a new Bridge over the British Channel as an engineer or something. i just can't imagine.
that's my reason of becoming pilot. Simply a strong feeling. am i wrong for not looking at all other possible options i have? NO
Call it foolish, i won't blame you, and it is alot of money, but it's worth it for me.
So just cross your fingers for me as i start my ATPL training next year, and maybe: see you in the skies!!
Cheers

[Maximum]

Flying was all I ever wanted to do.

I remember reading at age eight a proper "grown-up" book on helicopter flying, then for months afterwards sorting out in my head how all the aerodynamics worked. I'd then sit and actually go through a whole flight in my head, moving the collective, throttle, cyclic and pedals in relation to one another, and imagining what the instruments would show. Very sad.

Then we'd go on holiday in a Viscount and I'd be sitting down the back using my armrest to pretend to taxy out, going through all the control inputs, flap settings, etc, for the flight. Very very very sad!!

Somehow I just knew I'd be a pilot. It just seemed natural. When I finally started flying for real, I felt right at home. I'd read and thought so much about it that nothing really came as a surprise. As I say, it just seemed perfectly natural.

Would I do it all again? Well, I'm sure I would, otherwise I wouldn't be the same person. However, if I'm being really honest, if somehow I could have packed all my flying into a couple of years, and got it out of my system as it were, then who knows.

I don't mean to sound jaded - 'cos I'm not actually. But remember, the boyhood dream can feel very different when experienced from the perspective of the man.

Probably one of the biggest frustrations you endure as you get older in this profession is the feeling of having little control over your own life. Seeing talentless managers come and go, while we spend our time in the air, and aren't viewed by management as having a valid input to make. This can lead to a sense of not having a "real" job. Totally untrue, but the feeling can still be there.

Anyway, hope that answers some more questions.

:)

[Lazlo]

I largely agree with Maximum, although it certainly sounds like he works pretty hard! I can't say I've ever had to do a 5 sector day, but working in the UK charter market 2 is usually all we have to do. Not all jobs are as demanding as Maximum's although there are probably many out there that are even more demanding. 900 hours a year sounds like very little but when you take into account report times, turnaround times, travel times etc you start to get the correct picture.

Flying professionally is different that pleasure flying for all the reasons outlined in previous posts. I enjoy my job but there are many days when I am not looking forward to going to work. Sometimes because I am exhausted, sometimes because I know I am going to be sitting beside someone difficult to get along with (and it's really not fun when you're rostered alongside someone like this for weeks on end). And believe it or not there are times when crewing try to take the p*ss and put you on a flight and you actually find yourself diving into the MoA trying to find a loophole to get out of having to do the flight. Someone desperate to get into the industry probably wouldn't understand that.

Like any other profession there are those you come across who are bitter and twisted and those who are insanely dedicated, but most fall somewhere in between. It is a great job, there are really no jobs that are perfect anyway. It is important to realise that you will be bored a lot, that your job will be under threat a lot (this industry is more volatile than most), you will be away from home a lot (and usually not on some sun-drenched beach but stuck in an airport hotel miles from anywhere) and - yes - you do have to listen to management speak about synergies and other such banal things.

Over the years I have taken an informal poll of the captains I have flown with and asked them if they would have done anything else. Even the most jaded, bitter captains said that no, they still think they make the right career decision because they think other jobs would have been worse. So there you have it. Just don't expect to look forward to coming to work every day for the rest of your working life because you will be disappointed.

Lazlo

[foghorn]

Maybe we're all mad?

It's a good job they don't test for it in the Class One....

[GearUp CheerUp]

Professional flying can be boring, stressful, tiring etc at times but it can also be very stimulating, challenging and rewarding. Probably true to say its not so much a job but a way of life. If you go into it for the right reasons and are the right sort of person then you will probably enjoy it.

I've been flying for thirteen years now, the last three professionally and I enjoy it as much if not more than when I started. It is true to say that commercial flying is incredibly disciplined with SOPs for everything and yes you have to fly to where you are told when you are told but this neednt be a down side to it. Its all to do with your attitude to it.

If I were to win a few million on the lottery (unlikely as I would not patronise such an institution) I'd still continue to turn up for work. I cant think of any other job where I could say that.

Why do you think Bruce Dickenson does it?