Initial call

[Expeditedescent]

There has been something really bugging me lately, particularly from pilots of UK based charter airlines.

The ommission of required reports on first contact with superfluous requests for climb/descent"

Example of recent exchange:

"London ABC123, approaching FL220 request lower"

"ABC123, roger, are you on a radar heading and were you given a speed"

"ABC123, affirm, heading 325 and 300kts or greater"

Another one.....Initial call after transfer from tower:

"London, XYZ987 approaching 60 for higher"

Correct me if I am wrong but should the call not go something like :

"London, XYZ987, passing 4,500ft for FL60, COWLY1E departure"

All information that is not offered has to be sought by the controller, which takes up important R/T time, and reduces time for co-ordinations and planning.

Please trust us, we will climb or descend you as soon as we can, so please can we stop the unnecessary requests and concentrate on passing full and accurate information on first contact........if you do so we can give you what you want more quickly, rather than asking for information you should have already given us.

This seems to be especially prevalent from charter operators, that is not to slight these operators, just simply my own experience from sitting in front of the tube.
It is happening more and more now, to the point where to be honest I find it annoying.

Oh, while I remember too had a great one recently:

"ABC123, level FL60 request higher"

"ABC123, negative maintain FL60 due inbound traffic 2 miles crossing left to right 1000 above"

"ABC123 roger we have him on TCAS"

Q: Why bother to ask for climb?

We are all pulling in the same direction, these unnecessary requests rob us of valuable time, so please help us to help yourselves and use the R/T responsibly.

Thanks

PS: I would like to add that I hold all UK pilots in the highest regard, we are very fortunate to have such excellant crews operating in our airspace, so I do hope nobody takes offence at the above quibbles.........Also if any crews wish to chip in with anything you find annoying about "Operational" ATC (That is excluding slots, sector closures, crap R/T coverage, NERC disasters, staff shortages, level capping etc etc......these are management problems and we are all very aware of them!!) please do.

[radar707]

While we're on the subject of annoying habits............

Please please pleae don't be over anxious to get transferred to the next frequency, especially after departure, if you're kept on the tower frequency there is a reason for it (Usually a separation issue), if there's a remote chance that you are likely to level off then we'll co-ordinate climb, or even better (when on 05 at EGPF) we'll try and move heaven and earth to get you the right turn at the GLG when on a NGY1J.

Please don't whinge or complain on the RT, we are doing our best to provide you with a
SAFE service


Feel free to come and pay us a visit anytime, the kettle is on and we'll iron out all those misconceptions you have about ATC.
You never know, we might all learn a few things ;) ;) ;) ;)

[411A]

Now just exactly why do pilots need to TELL the departure controller the departure procedure they have been assigned?

If he doesn't KNOW already, perhaps he needs to find out from the ATC system. If he is a "departure controller", he should know flight progress information as passed to him. :rolleyes:

[radar707]

411A,

It's checks and balances, how many times have controllers had problems when a/c are not flying the SID they are supposed to.
How many times have pilots been issued a SID clearance, correctly read it back and still flown the wrong SID.
Why do pilots who fly the same a/c day in day out, still go through a landing / departure checklist, shouldn't they know it already????

These are all safety issues, it's what makes UK airspace as safe as it is, reduces the RT loading and makes everyones job that little bit easier in our overcrowded skies

[fireflybob]

Speaking as pilot there is no excuse for non standard R/T procedure - it's all laid down in the book.

This sort of omission should be picked up in routine checks.

[AhhhVC813]

Why indeed 411A? How about because that's what you are asked to do on the SID chart. Simple really.

[wingattack]

Just a quick one. Should Pilots always give their passing level on each call or just on initial contact? I hear some guys giving it on every call. I don't do it and have never been asked for it except when descending in a busy hold. Just curious!

[1261]

You need to give us the passing level check on departure so that we can check ("verify") your mode-C readout - simple as that. As long as you stay in continuous radar coverage you shouldn't need to pass it again.

Descending in the busy hold - that's because the controller can't see your data tag properly as it's garbled with the aircraft above and below you.

[Pontius]

"....for FL60.....", I don't think so ;)

[t-bag]

Whilst I appreciate that airspace is V busy,maybe it annoys us as pilots to be handed over close to level offs in climb or descent so a little forward thinking all round might stop these non standard calls-levelling off is not econmical and not particularly comfortable "down the back". Obviously most of the time it is neccesary but often can be avoided. Whilst on annoying can you TMA guys please sort out what speeds you want - 8 times out of 10 into LGW , London TMA say keep speed up then LGW say 210 Kts it is very "annoying"

[Hand Solo]

Why is it that on departures from BHX via Cowly and Daventry, as you pass throught the airspace between FL 100 and FL 220 we're often told "Contact London on 1XX.XX with your heading", only to check in and be told "Report your cleared level"? Why not just report both on handover? Just curious, no criticism intinded!

[BwatchGRUNT]

In response to you 'Hand Solo' forgive me if I have misunderstood but you are required to report the level you are maintaing or the cleared level at every change of frequency therefore you do not need to be told to report the level, unles that is you are being asked to advise your REQUESTED level - this invariably always differs from the flight planned level and is another waste of valuable R/t for us to clear you to your FP level only for you to inform us you only require FLxxx today, which then requires us to reclear you to that lower level.

Another good one as you approach your requsted level is 'ABC123 approaching FLxxx for higher' ,'Roger ABC123 we have that as your filed whats the requested?' , 'we'll maintain this for the cruise ABC123' - the point of this conversation was?????

Getting back to your point, you are asked to report your heading because the standing agreement that you are invariably operating on and the terms of a silent handover mean that if you are on a heading, on the whole we may not turn you from this heading until within out sector airspace whereas without the heading a turn of lets say of 20 degrees is acceptable and will not risk a separation loss against aircraft we know nothing about.

If more of you paid us a visit down in Sunny Swanick or TC for that matter - now that the flight deck is all but out of bounds for us ATCO's perhaps we could all make our lives a little easier..

:D :D :D

[Expeditedescent]

t-bag,

Yes I agree totally with your point, and whenever possible we try to hand you off as early as possible.

We are told early in training to trasfer traffic as soon as it is clean, after all the earlier you chuck traffic at least it won't have a mayday on your frequency !! :D

The point is though, traffic has to be clean (ie not in confliction with anything else........even traffic in another sector).
Sometimes that requires holding on to traffic until it levels off........also don't forget we mat be conducting phone co-ordinations. You would not believe how long some phone calls with the military can be.

For example...........LJAO phone with a DTY Crosser......we need the FL, Direction of cross, SSR Code/Callsign and type of aircraft. Then we have to check that the cross can be approved given traffic, then we have to inform TMA North. We have to write strips ourselves.......this takes time, and is often enough for a radar controller to let an aircraft level off.
Just one example of the bigger picture, which is not always obvious from the flightdeck, but I would say that 100% of ATCO's I work with always try to transfer aircraft well before level off.

Regards

[Trip Switch]

Slightly off the topic - but BIG bugbear all the same.

Initial climb out of EGSS, approaching 1000' agl for the clean up. Bearing in mind this is a busy ole time in the office with all the monitoring that needs to be done, raising of flaps and callouts etc., is there no way the 'frequency change' call can be left a bit later? Even trying to reply can get a bit difficult on occasion! This is followed in very short order (having changed freq) by a radar heading (always the other way from the direction you're turning!)/level off or change/free speed/blah blah blah call, just as we are reaching SID alt, throttling back and in a 30 deg bank turn - and we haven't gone 4 miles yet!

Back on track - I agree that some RT is lacking, unhelpful and even atrocious on occasion - no excuses. On the other side, we do want higher/lower if we're already climbing/descending, and not just for smoothness! When we've just changed freq and request a level change, yes, we can see other traffic on TCAS, but we have absolutely NO idea where they are going or what is being done with them.

I know it's busy for you chaps and chapesses, but please be gentle with us.

Trip:)

[radar707]

Trip,
The frequency change thing leads back to ATCO's spending time on flight decks, I've spent many happy hours up front and because of this I know when you're busy, the post departure clean up and checks is one of the busiest times "in the office" so you'l find that I never bother with the frew change until you're around 2000' (SID Level 6000').

You could always take the time out to visit the tower, have a coffee (and maybe a chocolate biscuit) and discuss things with the controllers :) :) :)

[FD Standby]

Ok - My pet hate

Taxying out for t/o:-

GROUND "taxi hold A1, and contact tower on 123.45"
ME "taxi hold A1, and contact tower....)
ME "Tower, ABC123 taxying to hold A1 RW..)
TOWER "Rodger ABC123, taxi hold A1)

Now didn't I just say that? but it's an instruction so it has to be read back, so another:-
ME "taxi hold A1"


Just yanks me chain, that's all!!!!

[Expeditedescent]

Pontius,

All Birmingham SIDs climb to FL60.

Transition altitude is 4000ft in the EGBB CTA.

[Dockjock]

My peeve is when inbound being told the current ATIS and runway to expect on each handoff ie. 3 or more times.

me: " Terminal C-GKFC 6 thousand with Charlie"
ATC: "KFC Charlie is current expect RWY 23"
me: "expect 23 KFC"

ATC: "KFC contact terminal 125.4 with heading"
me: "say heading on 125.4 KFC"

me: "terminal KFC 6 thousand heading 150"
ATC: "KFC expect 23 ATIS is charlie"
me: "yep"

ATC: "KFC contact arrival 132.8"
me: "arrival 132.8 KFC"

me: "Arrival KFC 6 thousand"
ATC: "KFC ATIS Charlie expect 23"
me: "got it buddy"


Like, I GOT IT man, you don't have to tell me 3 times! What a waste!

[Seba]

DockJock,
what if the arrival controller in your example says:" KFC,current ATIS is Delta,expect vectors ILS runway 05 approach"

[Dockjock]

Well that's nice when the information has changed, but is not the point of telling ATC what information you have to allow them to know not to bother prompting you? In other words, if I tell them I have "Charlie" don't they write it down and tell the next guy on the handoff...if not, then what's the point of saying "with Charlie" in the first place?

Furthermore, if the information has indeed changed when we're within 10-15 miles out (ie. landing in less than 5 minutes) there really isn't time to go copying new information, especially when you punch over to the frequency (invariably) just as you've missed the winds- and the ATIS message is 45 seconds long! Tower gives the wind on landing clearance anyhow, and if they are aware of what information you have (and know you don't have the "current"- they should) then they could also quickly give any drastic changes in vis/RVR/ceiling at that point as well.

Saves a whole heap of additional "we've got its" when on initial call everyone's already reported "we've got it". Arrrrghhh!

[P777L]

My pet hate is checking in "....with info charlie", being told;
"info now delta", listening to delta to find it's identical to C.

Would rather hear (and usually do) "info now delta, no change"

[Only A Few More Seasons]

Perhaps RT phraseology changes should be promulgated in FOD- COMs and not the CAP416 Revs.







Been had on this before!

[fmgc]

I think that Pontius is referring to the "for" before "FL60", "for should NEVER be used, I have heard it casue all sorts of confusion.