View Full Version : Filing IFR to a VFR helipad.
Should you file IFR to a VFR helipad and use the airport next door as your legal alternate knowing full well that the chances of landing at your destination helipad are next to zero.
Lets assume your aircraft is IFR GPS certified.
SASless
11th Oct 2002, 03:31
Why not just file IFR to the airfield....and if the weather permits...cancel IFR and proceed to the heliport/helipad SVFR or VFR. That way you are fat on fuel due to the different reserves required...and ATC has you slotted into the the IFR traffic....you could perform the IFR approach.....break out over the airport and if the weather was right...off you go to the other location...if not...land on...send the pax over by ground transportation. All much more efficient and safe in my humble opinion than doing it the other way around. This presupposes the two destinations are quite close together.
GLSNightPilot
11th Oct 2002, 03:39
It depends on what the weather is. In the US, you can file to any place you want, whether or not it has an approach, as long as the weather is forecast to allow you to descend & land in VMC. If the weather is actually IFR, you have to file to someplace that has an instrument approach. We do this all the time, with published GPS approaches to heliports, & a nearby airport with an ILS helps out. The distance doesn't matter, as long as the weather is better than the alternate minimums. I don't know the UK regs on this, nor do I care. My helicopter won't make it across the pond. :D
The Canadian regs do not put any weather limits on your destination.....for example you could file to a VFR location with the weather zero/zero as long as your alternate meets the legal requirements.
Maybe its our regs that are faulty.
donut king
12th Oct 2002, 01:21
You are correct XNR in that filing to a point in space is LEGAL as your destination.
HOWEVER..... WHY?????
Are you trying to just " get the job done" at all costs... in this case, putting you and the people you are responsible for into a situation without options(i.e... you must make your "alternate" given that it is your real destination).
Given that your helipad is in proximity to the "alternate" airport, basic pilottage tells me that the same weather system will probably prevail over both areas...helipad and a/p.While you are legal to file as stated, your decision making is VERY questionable!!!!
I realize that filing as stated saves gobs of fuel req'd and is technically legal, but as a very experienced mountain pilot taught me....... WHERE IS YOUR WAY OUT!!!!
Steve76
12th Oct 2002, 03:39
So DK if fuel IS an issue and the wx is a healthy 600-2, why would you not do it?
ILS is going to get you down to 200agl and a mile vis is quite suffice. So you have 400ft and an extra 1 mile = No problem.
Not the best solution to getting extra gas but frankly with your options limited, a reasonable decision.
A wise old fixed wing jock with 8000hrs of IFR told me he has only ever once not got in on an ILS, and that was due to fog.
This thread lends not to XNR's airmanship or judgement but is merely a talking point. So quit with the exasperation!!:rolleyes:
donut king
12th Oct 2002, 12:53
Sorry!
My post is not directed at XNR's decision making. I should have said one's decision making..... not "your". My apologies to XNR!
Steve76....you said it all yourself......" not the best solution to getting extra fuel.......etc..."
I would not plan( sitting at base) to go into that situation. However, you are correct in your post in that if I were caught in a situation without options, I would do as you have stated.
Hope that clears things up a bit!
D.K.
P.S. the old saying goes something like ....... make a superior judgement before you fly into a situatuion that requires superior skill........ I think!!!!!!
Q max
12th Oct 2002, 13:40
BUT ... I thought (particularly in the US) that it is permitted to fly in conditions VFR which are not permitted (or practical) whilst IFR ... the weather does have minimums for IFR normally.
;)
Thanks D.K.
Apolology accepted......
Steve you are right...... this is just a discussion point.....lets face it the rules were written for fixed wing.....stiff wing drivers rarely have or should I say enjoy this option....so in Canada the question remains....... should we be exercising this option or are our regs not up to date?
Question...... if the helipad was served by a GPS approach with a MDA of 800' AGL an the weather was 400'/1 would everyone feel better about filing that option? Let's face it the result woud be the same.
:D
GLSNightPilot
12th Oct 2002, 18:08
In the US, it would depend. For Part 135 (commercial) operations, you can't commence the approach unless the reported visibility is at least that required for the approach. The alternate minimums vary by airport, but 400-1 could well be enough to use the airport as an alternate. We're doing GPS approaches to point-in-space, then to heliports, at 300-1/2 minimums, so your scenario might very well be legal. Under Part 91, you can fly the approach regardless of the weather.
SASless
12th Oct 2002, 20:05
Xnr....being an investor in the US stockmarket and mutual funds....I always go for the sure thing! As long as the two places are close by....as described....I remain with my original response...go to the airport....where you have the weather to breakout and hopefully then go SVFR or VFR as appropriate to the other location.....if VFR weather or weather that exceeds the minimums at the desired destination suddenly appears....then you can change your destination to that location without any great bother to yourself or ATC. (Or so it seems to me....maybe I am missing something?)
international hog driver
12th Oct 2002, 20:13
The big factor is where you are. We file plans IFR to point in space locations all the time, using gps rnav only the weather is the unknown quantity.
In Africa it is rare to even see a weather report valid for your destination, this has some of the newbies from the EC choking.
SOP is always give yourself a valid alternate, if that means tanks full and payload limits then so be it, this is something we do that some less reputable operators seem not to notice. Hence they get hull losses and we don’t.
Steve76
12th Oct 2002, 22:24
Onya DK :D
Sasless: to clear things up for you. What you are proposing is completely correct and we all do exactly that. The advantage of filing to the point in space is you only need the fuel to get to your alternate, which just happens to be the airport only 5miles from the helipad you are trying to get into. If you take the airport as the destination then you need another airport with applicable minimas available for an alternate.
This can mean (where I work) a commute of maybe 30+ mins and fuel for approach.
SO; sounds suspect but this loophole allows us fling wing IFR piloks to avoid the extra weight and requirement for the fuel.
This is a valuable resource if the chips are down and you get caught enroute in IMC, or, if you are at "X" helipad in the middle of nowhere + 100 miles without fuel refill available. You have gotta be clever about it thou.......
This has been a great post with some good banter. I guess the real issue with all this discussion is where is the OUT? While it may be legal, it may not be prudent. Working EMS, I always try to remember that 4 > 1 in all cases. Try not to risk your crew for a medevac; I will opt for the conservative option.
This is not unlike the issue of calculating fuel required plus "contingency fuel"; how much is enough contingency fuel..5 minutes? 10? Should we br filing/flying to the absolute limit? Again, where is the OUT?
SASless
13th Oct 2002, 05:05
Thank you Steve for reminding me of something I was exposed to in the Shetland Islands back in the mid 70's and again in San Antonio when an EMS operator I used to work for also used a similar logic. Unst at the tippy top part of the Shetland Islands was a VFR only alternate/diversion/destination, Sumbrugh at the other end of the island had the instrument approaches. In San Antonio , the ace of the base took it upon himself to sell the customer on the convenience of using an area of forecast VFR weather as the alternate. After being burned in the Shetlands on more than one instance of the forecast, predicted, guessed at.....promised....and non-existent aforesaid VFR weather being there....nay any weather that would allow getting there no matter what tricks you played.....the San Antonio bunch failed to understand my rightous indignation upon once again being thrust into such a situation by the wizards up in the ivory tower.
You very correctly stated....that extreme caution must be used......I assure you that at some most inopportune time....you are going to get bit in the proverbial wallet masher. You will scoot along thinking all is well, and the weather is going to change....and there you be.....wondering why you did not put a few more pounds of dinosaur juice onboard for dear ol' Mum and the Kids, Cousin Sam, Uncle Herbert, and the boys at the local.
When it comes to adding fuel and cutting passengers....I cut passengers.......when it comes to adding fuel for unexpected diversions.....I add the fuel.....sometimes my math gets off on the load and balance sheet...but the fuel is going to be there. I do not like salt water baths.....the soap doesn't foam very well....plus some of the places I have flown it is chill enough to keep the beer cold in the middle of the summer. The GOM is a bit more tolerant of mistakes.....many more platforms, more fuel points, more benign weather and water than say the North Sea or Alaskan waters or Canadian waters but until you can stand up on it.....don't be shy about adding more fuel. If the customer and management get testy about the fuel you are carrying....think how tickled they will be when you run out one day!
Boys
Do you guys feel that this is an oversight in our Canadian regs.....
Should they be tightened up or would the stiff wing boys scream bloody murder???
:rolleyes:
John Bicker
13th Oct 2002, 19:35
Who was it who said the only time you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire?!!!
SASless
14th Oct 2002, 00:34
Captain Bicker......it was a very wise man, sir!:D
donut king
15th Oct 2002, 16:24
XNR.... regarding this ambiguity in your Canadian reg's, what does your company culture and SOP's promote.
Do they authorise it or say be conservative?
D.K
Good question D.K.
Just had that conversation not long ago.
If I understand correctly the company line on this is:
"Even though it may be totally legal, the company is not recommending that this option become common practice."
It is not currently mentioned in our SOP's.
:)