View Full Version : Canadian NAO Report on NFTC

10th Oct 2002, 23:08
From the National Post by Bill Curry:

"Discovery that Auditor General has paid $65M for flight training it has never used was quickly pounced on by the opposition in question period yesterday"

"Problems with the planes have led to the cancellation of more than half the training slots for Canadian pilots"

"Also, Bombardier has not fulfilled its contract obligation to create a database to track how much the program is being used. This has led to disputes between the Department of National Defence and Bombardier over who owes what to whom with respect to certain reimbursable fees, which make up about 20% of the cost to the federal department. Instead, the contract requires the government to continue with 40 semi-annual payments of $31.4-million over 20 years regardless of whether National Defence has used the aircraft."

Full story follow this link

National Post Website Copy of Article (http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=71BD1289-0C22-47AC-A841-8B2A20FDC429)

10th Oct 2002, 23:27
"Denmark, the United Kingdom, Italy, Singapore and Hungary have signed on to Canada's program and the international participants are using all the training slots they have purchased, while Canadian pilots get bumped, the report states."

Is that because they worded their contracts differently and only pay for what they get? If so, who makes the decision about who gets bumped? Surely not the contractor?

11th Oct 2002, 07:44
Canadian pilots just cannot seem to win. It was not so long ago that an entire year went by and the CF had not graduated a pilot. This and in a year the pilots who signed a five year bonus scheme will get ready to bolt.
As I mentioned in another post I had a look at returning to the CF and was told that it would take at least six months and I would have to go through the entire recruiting process again. This despie having almost 4000hrs of military flying experience.
The CF are not producing pilots, cannot keep the ones they have and put hurdles in the way of pilots who want to return:( .
A very sad state of affairs that on top of this the training system has been allowed to screw the CF out of millions of dollars which they cannot afford. The CF is heading for third world air force status!!

Brin Giton
11th Oct 2002, 08:16
As far as I understand, CF pilots are not getting bumped but the other nations are using the slots in the NFTC system that the CF are unable to fill due to a backlog.

11th Oct 2002, 18:32

Unfortunately your comments on Canuck Air Force are somewhat inaccurate - they are now a third world operation.

Too bad - it was once a great operation. Happened to be in the Cool Pool not long ago - only a couple of aircraft on the line and not one flying despite the beautifull wx.

Happen to know NFTC quite well, and am saddened that a good group of folks will be tarred by the fact the Canuck feds and BI management (very senior level) did not plan and execute.

Do not forget PM is related to BI board member - I am sure there is no collusion ?!?!?!?! Nuff said in this forum.

Another time my friend - fly safe.


11th Oct 2002, 18:56
What lessons for the MFTS manangement I wonder:eek:

11th Oct 2002, 22:12
I hope you don't mean the Government purchase of 2 x CL604 which were not [really not, absolutely not] dumped by a purchaser was in any way sleazy :D

And the only thing keeping the enviroweenies from closing YTZ is the Canadian Auto Workers branch making Dash8-Q400s!

Chronic Snoozer
13th Oct 2002, 08:49

Referred to this on a previous post in Training thread. You appear to know a bit about NFTC - do you have a link to the Danish articles you've mentioned? How much are the Danes paying for a graduate? I've heard it isn't cheap.


15th Oct 2002, 20:39
No Flying Training for Canadians

Thats what they're calling it out there says a Chunky mate of mine in the thick of it.

We're paying in the region of 1 million per student so I figure the other participating nations can't be paying much different(!)

At that price it makes me wonder why we send out low average club-handed fat kids and Rat children. (see you in December boys)


keith burtons vi
16th Oct 2002, 00:17
Next time i see you i'm gonna slap you with my chunky hands while the fink throws you around your newly decorated room by that big hooter of yours.

Regards to the boys, Keith.

16th Oct 2002, 02:48
I don't want to hijack this thread, but it, and some others, along with recent media output, are all deeply worrying me.

I'd like an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred opinion here. I am applying to the RAF as WSO and pilot (if they'll take me because of age). I have also applied to the Canadian Forces (which makes sense, being a Canadian). I have passed through all the recruitment process for the CF (interviews, aptitude tests in Trenton, medicals in Toronto, etc., etc.) and am only awaiting final approval from the November board.

So my question : what exactly IS the state of the Canadian Air Force? Will I be screwed over waiting for nine months doing photocopies, only to be rewarded with some nonexistent NFTC spot?

Would the Canadians on this board please speak up and frankly tell me what they think of the force, whether or not I should actually bother to join? I am ready, willing and able to dedicate my life to serving my country, but am seriously beginning to doubt it would be worth it for what seems to me to be a castrated force with little support from the government. All I have ever wanted to do was fly fighters, but former Canadian aircrews tell me horror stories about having to do several ground tours (even flying tours that could almost be described as ground ones!), and some cynical ones are even hinting that the CF won't even have a fighter capability come 2015 or so, or whenever it is the CF-18 will be retired. These are all pretty frightening statements.

I have a decision to make soon; CF as pilot (but with fighter capability that may be phased out, or barring that, drastically cut back flying hours, with long waiting for training) or RAF as probably WSO (not pilot, but SpecAircrew qualification, and a stronger institutional support for the military)? I haven't been officially accepted in either, mind you, but I'm only collecting info.

Sorry for the long rant, I appreciate responses.

16th Oct 2002, 15:53
Your questions and worries are both very valid here.
Is the Canadian Air Force castrated? The answer is yes, but it has been for years. The only reason it has been able to still make a credible contribution (albeit small) is due to the quality of the people it has been able to recruit. Problem is the PM and his dolts do not realize this. This has been the cross to bear for the people in the CF for years.
I have been out of the CF for a couple of years now and as I hear it, NFTC is going thru some major teething problems. Not surprizing really, as being screwed around and generally ripped off seems to be the norm for most CF contracts. ie CF-18 maintenance going to Quebec and not Winnipeg where it was cheaper and better quality. Why?---Politics!!!
However, listening to some of my mates here who are ex-RAF the same runs true for the RAF.
I loved the time I spent in the CF and would return back to it, but I would be returning with the rose coloured glasses abit smudged. Starting out in your career you have a slightly different take on things and are willing to let certain issues slide. The older one gets, the less willing one is to be screwed without getting kissed first. So don't be too worried about the rantings of guys like me who just want to be kissed:D
In the end the choice has to be yours. You have to decide whether the grass is greener in the RAF or the CF. I personnally and no disrespect to the WSO clan, would choose pilot in the CF any day. You might have the option of later crossing over to the RAF. Maybe!!
You will not always be at work. Do you prefer rain or snow? Blue or Boddingtons? Hockey or Rugby? Curry or potato pancakes?
Get the idea?
Ground tours! Every air force has those!
Flying hours! Yep:rolleyes: everyone complains about that too.
If the Hornet gets phased out in 2015, at least you got 10 years or so in the jet to tell your grand kids about.
Hope this helps a little and who knows maybe I'll see you in Moose Jaw.