Navigators

[shopfloor]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
NAVIGATORS: WHY?



This is not a bitch about another trade but when is the RAF going to stop the NAV UNION from destroying other trades and the multi eng transports fleet’s advancement?



This whole thought process began when I became involved in a discussion with a CAA licensed Ground Engineer, who has absolutely no connection with the RAF. We were talking in general terms about the RAF and I just happened to mention that Navs don’t just fly in the back of fast jets. He looked at me in astonishment - he genuinely thought that we, the RAF, were in the same position as the civilian world (well not far behind anyway), and we either had 2 or 3 manned flight decks, with nav type people producing jet plans in Ops. I then began to tell him of the plight of other trades, mainly Airman Aircrew trades, who have slowly had or are about to have their jobs taken from them. For example, the Puma helicopter operated very efficiently with one Pilot and a Crewman, who had to be able to navigate; do radios and fly the aircraft as well as carry out his own job. Well, that was fine, everyone was happy except THE UNION, who had a surplus of unemployed Nav’s. Well, what to do? I know, write a job spec and create a job for yourself, and totally alienate the Helicopter Crewman Branch! After all, if there had been too many Crewmen, they would have been re-trained (redundant).



I then moved on to the subject of the Transport Fleet. On the Hercules, there have been some very big changes most of them bad i.e. the “J”. But sticking with the old “K”, many countries around the world only fly with a Nav on low level sorties because of the lack of investment in nav kit, but we in the RAF insist that they fly in the circuit, in the simulator and around Europe, which as we know is short of nav aids. Why, when the “J” finally gets its official third seat (watch out, Loadies!), is it necessary to create a new trade, that of Weapons System Officer WSO (NAV), when Flt Engineers, Load Masters and Aeops have been carrying out system handling; radios; DAS suite operation; aircraft servicing etc for years and still do so. Would it not be simpler to just carry on with Airmen Aircrew, who are cheaper and more effective? Once again, how convenient - as all the predicted “J” model Hercules problems are exposed, the Navs already have a solution that must have been ready to go for many years. But it’s not a Nav’s job!



Lets now talk about TRI STARS. They manage ok.



Lets now talk about the VC10 Fleet, not here for much longer I’m sad to say, but what does the Nav do? Not a great deal if you speak to the crews, but he has to be there because when the nav kit was fitted the Pilots control panel was omitted. I wonder who was in the procurement chain for that one?????



Just for the record, I would like to say again that TRI STARS MANAGE OK!



The Sentry has a Nav apparently. He has a switch that tells the autopilot what type of racetrack to fly!!! They were going to remove the Nav on an update but guess what, in the nick of time, a Nav appeared in the procurement chain. So spend another £Millions, “undating" (can I say that?) the flt deck.



C17’s manage ok especially now that Ground Crew operate on the flt deck when it’s a bit busy and dangerous!!!! I’ll leave that one with you!



So to the future. Does the RAF keep on destroying Non Commissioned Aircrew’s moral so that they leave (oh sorry, they don’t leave they just can’t recruit then in sufficient numbers) or does it get brave and say that the third person on a flt deck, especially for in-theatre-ops, is to be the tried and trusted Flt Eng/Loady/Aeop? Can I bring myself to say it, a Crewman? After all, generally speaking, Airman Aircrew are selected for their job, i.e. horses for courses, and are not usually failed Pilots.

It is fair to say that there are some very clever Navs out there but rather than “shoe- horn” all Navs into other people’s jobs, why not use their skills in the Ops Support Branch, or Air Traffic.



PS Hope you are all spending your hard-earned GENERAL DUTIES – sorry, I mean, PROFESSIONAL AIRCREW RETENTION (OH I’M NOT LEAVING ANYWAY) BONUS!!!!!



PPS Maybe we Crewmen need a “Federation”? – your comments please!

[Facilitator]

I would suggest that your information about the J is totally incorrect and flawed - in fact did a navigator give you it?

:mad: :eek: ;) :D

[StopStart]

Sorry, stopped reading your rant when you started whittering on about the J.
As the man above says, what exactly are all these problems with the J that are coming to light?

[SAGA LOUT]

I agree wholeheartedly MOST of your base line sentiments. I am and have been a true SH crewman (2 crew) for many years. We had a super plan of 'Crewman evolution' back in the 70's which consisted of 1st tourist Crewmen doing the 'centre seat and back-end' job for a tour and - if he proved able enough - he was then trained and positioned in the LHS to do the 'other job'. This incentive had many advantages viz: It gave the ab initio Crewman a huge incentive to do the job to his/her best ability to prove himself capable of the 'other' job, the pilot's loved it because they could teach the skills required (thus giving them initial training skills and, because it wasn't legislated for Navs in the LHS, they could gain valuable LHS time, there was flexibillity in the system in that if the Crewman couldn't or didn't hack the necessary skills it wasn't a costly problem. We trialled Suitably Qualified Aircrew Members (SQAMS) on the Wessex in Ireland and it worked a treat but somewhere along the line it was binned. We started a huge movement for a 'CM' brevet amongst the NCO Crewmen, had top brass backing but when the question was formally put to the Crewmen they let me down and decided to stay with the LM or QM brevets - this has bitten them in the b@lls vis a vis Pay 2000. I would like to say I told them so, but I won't. Many Crewmen have become Civilian airline pilots, even more have PPLs, one of them even flies Concorde!!! So there is much unfettered talent amongst the Crewmen. Unfortunately, Keith Harding stabbed us all in the back with his surplus Tornado Navs and even more unfortunately it is legislated and you try and get them out of the bloody seat now. The talented Crewman is now resigned to a back seat in cockpit 'happenings' and it is a bloody disaster. My advice is to get your ATPLs and leave the ******s to it....!!!!
:( :mad: :cool:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Shop Floor
Agree with most of what you say but the J is not going the way you think.............I hope:eek: TAC course numero uno is underway and the Loadie is involved big style thanks to the efforts of the "right" people.

Having done a tour single pilot op's on Percy, followed by the advent of the LHS person I can sympathise with your sentiments but getting a non commisioned guy in a driving seat on one of her queenships toys was always going to be a non starter. Nav or Pilot in that seat was always the way ahead..............just wish it could have been a crewman....what a job!!! :D SAGA tells the tale of how close we came....set lar vee rodders.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS Can't remember the thread but I had the "seat theives" forming a queue a couple of weeks ago to punch my lights out for a failed attempt at banter so beware the inevitable verbal retribution that this stink bomb is going to cause.

:p :p

[Cabe LeCutter]

So which year did you fail Nav training

Head down look out for the flack

[Night NVG Goggles]

Shopfloor
For your information, which isn't biased THAT much for your trade, the VC10 will be in service for at least another 6 years! I am not sure where you got all of your expert information, are you an jack of all aircraft and a master of none, or do you listen over the shoulders of aircrew in Sqn bars and make your own decision!
The Nav on the VC10 does have a purpose, if you speak to most VC10 aircrew they will state that the Nav is worth his money when it comes to Trails. This is not just a peace time task of getting fast jets to the States or the Gulf, but a vital and complex task of deploying the UK's air assets around the world.
Yes the TriStars may cope, just with their single hose! But is that the standard you want to portray for the RAF, a second rate air force that can cope with difficult tasks. Or do it right with a crew that supports each other and gets the fast jets crews down route as safely and quickly as physically possible!
Hope the bitter taste in your mouth doesn't last too long!

PS - And I don't even qualify for the Aircrew retention bonus, so try and find another shoulder to cry on!

[Blacksheep]

The RAF still has Navigators? Oh my Gawd! Whatever next!

I mean, if there was a combat situation, (unlikely as that is in today's peaceful world) no-one would turn off the Navaids would they? That wouldn't be fair. Everyone has GPS these days and the Pentagon are much too gentlemanly to employ selective denial should the US Congress decide that they disagreed with our invasion of Suez or whatever. No, the Nav displays will always continue to operate in all conditions and there's no more need for Navigators who can find their way about without Navaids. Get rid of the lot of them...

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[difar69]

"This is not a bitch about another trade". Come on, at least be honest about it. Your thread has a very nasty element of "them and us" contained within. While you make some valid points about the SH and truckie Forces you seem to include every other guy and girl who wears the N brevet, in the RAF at the moment, as targets for your abuse. If you don't like it where you are...... leave. There are Navs in the RAF, mostly based North of Newcastle, who earn their GD pay (Nimrods and Tonkers) and if they work with them, have the respect of their Airmen Aircrew Crewmen. Don't drag us all into your miserable little argument.........

[Chris Kebab]

Well said difar. Some posters on here really do seem to bear major personal problems with regards crew composition/cooperation especially towards navigators.

I've got thousands of hours flying a nav round and they have my full respect (one of my best ever Sqn Cdr's was a nav), as some of my previous rather defensive postings have probably shown!

A few tips:

If you're not satisfied with a job involving fiddling with fuel pumps, generators and aircraft systems - DON'T BECOME AN AIR ENG.

If you want to sit in a cockpit pushing buttons - DON'T BECOME A LOADIE.

If you do actually want to operate nav kit/radar/EW/DASS/weapon systems - BECOME A NAV/WSO.

And if you want to do everything yourself - GO SINGLE SEAT! But I have always found a it so much chummier to have a mate to chat to!

So, if you don't like your job (and it appears some non-pilots above are indeed just pilot wannabes) - do something about becoming a pilot, or, get out and make way for someone who will appreciate your job more, or, if you are not prepared to do anything about your situation - just STFU.

[man in the loop]

shopfloor

Your rant has reminded me of a quote from Blackadder:

Baldrick: "The whole thing sounds like a box of rotten grapefruit to me, Mr B."

Blackadder: "Baldrick, I think the phrase you are looking for is 'A case of sour grapes.'"

(Apologies to Ben Elton and Richard Curtis for any mis-quotes.)

:p

[Mmmmnice]

NNVGG - nasty stutter you've got there Chief

Not a whinge/snipe - do leave it out! As previously stated - if you want a comfy seat with a reasonable view steer clear of ALM.

Accept it - you will never get near the front seat of a Puma again.

It's nice not to have a long debate about who waggles the stick but....having 2 drivers is the most relaxing way of getting through a long day - and if you're heavy enough the civvys make it the law - end of discussion methinks??????? of course not - it's friday night and the pubs are emptying!!!!!

[Stan Bydike]

Up here at Ice Station Kilo the Navigators and AE teams run the aircraft. For years we had a "fairly mature" AEO branch but the trend has been to commission younger AEOp's and we have benefited immensely.

Once the WSO/Op structure has established itself then I suspect that present day AEOps will have far better opportunities than now if they have the desire and ability.

Operationally, we can only benefit. There are many lead operators who would have been better Tacco's than some I have seen but the route has not been there for them except through a branch change. Hopefully now, whenever we get the MRA4, we will be able to pick and chose for the exec seats in the aircraft.

Nav/AEO/AEOp/Airborne Basketweaver -- it doesn't matter what the brevet is as long as you can get the job done and be part of the team

[canberra]

as a civvy i have to ask why would the military need a federation, what would its role in life be? never forget that the military is a totally different job to anything else even the civvy emergency services. and as for navigators, as has been said navaids can be switched off, yes even gps. and as for the sentry, they were delivered with sextants! as a final point i know that navs and aeos/ops are merging why not go the whole hog and merge all non pilot aircrew?

[Hertz Van Rental]

Opined by Stan Bydike

"Up here at Ice Station Kilo the Navigators and AE teams run the aircraft."

C'mon Stan you didn't expect to say that and get away scott-free did you? ;) MR operations are all about team work and the flight deck has as much influence as anyone else.

"For years we had a "fairly mature" AEO branch but the trend has been to commission younger AEOp's and we have benefited immensely."

But at the cost of a considerable and unsustainable drain on the AEOp cadre.

"Hopefully now, whenever we get the MRA4, we will be able to pick and chose for the exec seats in the aircraft."

My understanding is that Taccos will only be WSOs not WSOps.

Other than that I agree entirely and the sooner we can start opening up more AEOp/WSOp posts on ac like the R1/E3 and ASTOR, the more chance we will have of making the required branch recruitment figures.

[Stan Bydike]

Hertz,

Thanks for the response - I was somewhat surprised that no-one had picked up on me missing out the 2 wing master race and of course the Eng.

You are of course correct that the Nimrod depends entirely on all trades to achieve the task. Teamwork is the key to getting the job done. As to commissioning of AEOps, unfortunately the biggest cost to us has been the outflow to the Ops Support Branch. Not as aircrew.

With respect to WSOp/O manning, in effect there will be three TACCOs in the MRA4 with Tac 3 being the WOp. But this is no Wop in the traditional sense having full access to sensor and tactical data and tasked to directly assist the tacco.

Fast track commissioning is not available to AEOps as they are deemed as changing trades at the moment. Once we have the MRA4 all boundaries are blurred and I would hope that Fast track will be pursued.

In the airborne environment rank doesn't count on a Nimrod crew, its only the poor operator who will use their rank as a weapon to cover their professional inadequacies. As I said before some of the leads I have worked with and observed over the years would have made excellent taccos. On the same note there are many young navigators who would have benefited from time as a sensor operator to gain the depth of knowledge required to fight the aircraft effectively.

A little bit of lateral thinking by 3 Gp could do wonders for AA retention in maritime :)

[Charlie Luncher]

Shopfloor

Unfortunately old fella we in the Airman Aircrew branches are still suffering from the leftovers of time promotion and the cancerous effect this can have on the young lads, the I cant be arsed and the 3000 hr attitude with only 300 under the belt.
We in the past have done ourselves no favours within the eyes of the bluebloods and this takes time to shake off.
Your post reveals a large potato product on your shoulder with respect to Navs. You have 2 options bitch and moan in the crewroom holding court until 11:00 then go home. Or if you are not happy with your lot do something about it might involve working after lunch though.:p

The Kipper fleet has always had a good crew atmosphere. There are trumpets as in all walks of life, but these are in the minority. Some of the Navs even look and smell nice, we also have some girlie ones.

It is something I really miss and luckily during my current role have been able to refresh it from time to time. It is just a pity that MRA4 has slipped again and it will be based at Waddington, but never mind.
:rolleyes:

[Sideshow Bob]

Without a Nav on board, who else could we take the P*** out of to relieve those hours of bordum on patrol.

[Stan Bydike]

Sideshow Bob

The AEO of course :)

[Hertz Van Rental]

Stan, trust me 3 Gp is not the problem, they have been thinking proactively about the problem for years. Those resisting the flow of AEOps into other fleets include, but are not limited to: R1, the current incumbents who do not wish to leave Waddo for the frozen north and whose experience makes them indispensible (unless it is for an exchange posting to Oz). E3, the FC community for no very good reason. (The AEOps that have gone have done superbly). And lastly for ASTOR, the Army, because all they really want is a radar aerial at height sending info downwards. The last thing they want is airborne analysts who can think for themselves.

Now I'm in trouble. :(

[BEagle]

Airborne anal........ysts. Very true. There is a great deal more to certain aircrew specialisations than being a wireless operator.

Sorry if that sounds rude - and it isn't supposed to apply to everyone, of course. It's just that the staggering arrogance of some sensor operators who seem to think that htey can do anyone else's job with the minimum of instruction is, frankly, very irritating. Navigators require considerable aptitude and academic training; very much more than sensor operators. So yes, we do still need navigators in some of our aeroplanes - not just system operators.

[Tom Bell-Weed]

Shopfloor,

Life isn't fair; get used to it. If you don't like the employment prospects as a crewman then ranting at the system is unlikely to achieve much apart from making you (more) bitter. Why not try something else? One word of caution, though. If your current embittered attitude shines through it won't help your case.