Attention: Airline managers, Chief Pilots and HR Departments

[Jobsearch]

The Pilot job market is tough and extraordinary steps must be taken to secure long-term employment. Furthermore, airlines around the world are struggling to cut costs and increase profits.

As an unemployed Professional pilot, I am also struggling to cut costs. More importantly, I would certainly like to increase my profits and am looking at long-term solutions, opposed to short-term windfalls.

Without further delay – Here is my offer…

I am current on the A320 and have a total of 12000 hours on various Jet and Turbo-Prop aircraft. I want to work, and am able to relocate anywhere in the world on short notice.

I may not be current or qualified on the Aircraft your company operates, but let’s face it - An Airplane is an Airplane – and the bottom line is the cost of training the crew.

My offer is simply. If you hire me and I require initial training, I will offer my services at a VERY reduced rate for the first year. Following that initial year, we can renegotiate at a rate that is reasonable and fair. Yes! Reasonable and fair, not exorbitant.

Furthermore, I am not interested in the politics of “Pilot Unions or Associations.” They have never done anything good for me. My belief is simply – You tell me how you want things done, pay me to do it that way, and we both go home happy at the end of each day.


For more information, please email Edited

[VneII]

I would have thought someone with 12000 hours would have been around long enough to realise that undercutting your colleagues reduces theirs and your professional worth:mad:

If you are willing to work for a "VERY reduced rate for the first year" does that mean you will perform at a very reduced rate for the first year or does it simply mean your services and expertise in your field are not worth the standard rate:confused:

[Jobsearch]

Standard and Fair? According to who? The union and back-stabbers who put me out of work...Again! BTW...My efforts, services and expertise are top notch thank you. And, the level of comfort and safety I offer my Pax and crew is not subject to negotiation nor is it dependent upon how much I'm paid.

You missed the most important part of my message - the word..."Fair"!

ps...Read this in a few years when you have a little experience and wisdom.

[VneII]

Jobsearch

I would not even bother to try and guess what you have gone through especially as you say "again". I can however tell you that I know very well how tough the job market is at the moment. What has made it worse for me in the past is company flight crew members (and supposed mates) offering to management to do set flights at a cheaper rate than the current (below award) one they were paying, thereby underminding all of us.

oh and FYI, my efforts, services and expertise are top notch also, and, the level of comfort and safety I offer my Pax and crew is not subject to negotiation nor is it dependent upon how much I'm paid either. I simply want to be paid what is fair and the same as the next person
AND I don't want to miss out on a job because someone offered to do it cheaper. That my friend is a vicious circle that never ends because after the one year when you want to renegotiate your salary what is to stop someone else coming in and doing exactly what you are doing now and therefore putting you out of a job.... again!

VneII

[Panama Jack]

Why not put the subject line as "Gun for hire" or "Mercenary for hire"? Draws even more attention. :p

. . . or you can even use the same gimmick as the local car salesman in the gorilla suit-- "I won't be undersold!!!" :D

[aluminum ovcst]

Jobsearch

This has got to be one of the nastiest posts I have read on PPRuNe to date. And I've read a few. I've even posted a few more than you have, which leads me to believe you are merely using this forum as means to offer your services, gratis. (I'd like to bring this to the attention of our hard-working moderators to keep this type of blatant advertising off the pages of PPRuNe). There are plenty of recruiting services available on the web, this isn´t one of them.

I don't know what your beef with your former union colleagues is, but most pilots on this forum will agree with me that it is not unionized members that are known for backstabbing their colleagues but rather those that are not, i.e. scabs, and your kind that love to flirt with management in all possible ways. Are you so self-righteous that you think that offering your services at a VERY reduced rate makes you a much more attractive package. You are obviously not aiming for the big leagues. What makes you think that a employer who is looking to employ a pilot for peanuts will later stick to his word and uphold the supposed, renewed, definitive contract. I suggest you take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself what you really are worth. Between yourself, the "idiots that work for free" as posted earlier in another thread, and the increasing tendency of airline management to constantly screw their crews, this profession is going down the toilet faster than you can imagine, and it is only us, the real professionals, that can continue to make this a worthy career.

[moku]

aluminum ovcs

Could not have said it better myself!!

[B Sousa]

Let me get this straight...Jobsearch is looking for a job..... The other comments are from those employed but dont wish to be undercut or whatever term... therefore Jobsearch should go hungry so the rest can wear white shirts and shinny stripes??
Its a tough world out there and this stick together stuff only works in the movies.......
Obviously pros and cons to both sides of the problem.

[moku]

B Sousa,

Hate to destroy your theory, but I am not among the ranks of the employed at the moment.

[Captain Stable]

B Sousa, I think more unemployed pilots than employed would rile at the suggestion in the original post.

If I were currently unemployed, I would feel extremely miffed at someone wishing to undercut me by flying for free (as many have suggested) when I need to earn money to live, feed the kids, pay the mortgage etc.

IMO emplyment should not be a marketplace where airlines find their crews from the lowest bidders.

[Willie Everlearn]

Jobsearch

It's a heartless profession this piloting of aeroplanes. Particulary at the present time when no one seems to give a.

Those who 'run the business' (for the most part) seem to constantly have their heads up their ars*s. Especially when it comes to selecting crew. But, this is what we are constantly up against. Isn't it? There never seems to be logic in the process so spare yourself the grief.

It never changes.

Be wary of those, quick to point out that they are "professionals" and imply that you are not. In who's mind is that really determined and to what extent are we actually professional?

Standby for an earfull on professionalism, for there is no shortage of professionals on this forum who are more than willing to elaborate. So I'll spare you my definition of "professional".

Most of us know who we are and in what kind of fish tank we truly swim. For at the end of the day it's merely a game of musical chairs. When the music stops one can only hope to have a seat.

There are those who understand this most basic of aviation facts and those who don't. There are those as well who understand that you get yourself a chair and get back in the game whatever the cost.

Do, my friend, whatever you have to do to get back in the game and best of luck in the process.
:) ;)

[ironbutt57]

Better redirect this thread to the "Simpletons and Moron's forum.

[Kaptin M]

Okay Jobsearch, I'll bite - as you've decided to make this offer on a public forum, let's know how much (in USD) you're wanting for an A320 position. A straight out amount - no extras for overtime, night flying, meal and accomodation allowances.
BTW, how many hours total do you have on type?
And how many of those are A320 command hours (actual lhs, verifiable, command hours)?
What licences do you hold now?

You will be responsible for your own licence and medical insurance and costs, and similarly paying for your location at the commencement of the contract, and relocation at the end.
Transport to and from work will be at your expense.
Accomodation on any nightstops will be provided by the company, and at the company's discretion.

In all matters, the company's (or their appointed agent's) decision will be final.
If you are found to be suitably qualified for employment, you will be required to enter into a 6 month bonded probationary period.

Your call.

[Grivation]

Well if you guys/girls think this post is odd you should jump down to the wannabe's forum and have a look sometime. There are any number of "Jobsearchers" willing to - pay for unsolicited type ratings, work for free for a year etc. The attitude displayed by Mr Jobsearch is creeping in from the bottom at an alarming rate!

I'm getting sick of doing all the arguing in Wannabes. Why don't some of you come and give me a hand? Please!

[Avius]

Agree with Ironbutt. This Thread is really not worth any discussion.

One should expect at least a basic level of intelligence from an airline pilot. JobSearch does not meet this criterium and should occupy the left seat of a taxi. Here you go "Captain".

Cheers

[AMEX]

Grivation
I read you quite a bit and agree with most of your posts but I have been involved in that kind of discussion (e.g Type Rating, CTC, Working for Free, etc....) a few times in the wannabes so I grew tired of it.
I tend not to enter that kind of subject anymore or at least not very often as it really gets me going. Answers such as "Life is tough or who said the world was fair" are too often brought up against valid points hilighting Ts and Cs degradation.

One thing is certain, this sort of attitude is on the increase and I would like to believe this is only due to the relatively poor market's state. Note I say, believe because in reality, I feel this is only the beginning with people willing to undercut-themselves- only in the hope to harvest peanuts (Fair enough since they participate in shaping tomorrow's Ts and Cs).

As for Jobsearch, I think it is a wind up but hey I took the bait ;)

[Kaptin M]

Jobsearch is more than likely an Ansett (or Continental, or Philippine Airlines, or Eastern, etc) scab who feels he NEEDS to do it all over again!
Unemployable by the airlines in Australia in 1988, he made the same offer in 1989 - and was accepted through DESPERATION.

Now UNEMPLOYED again, he feels the ONLY way he can sell himself, is to do so at a DISCOUNTED price, to appear competitive.
On his OWN merits, he feels lacking.

A true "whore" of the aviation profession!

[mirifly]

I can`t believe what I`m reading here. None of you guys knows
Jobsearches` circumstances.

what do you fear ?? !!!! and the last remark was totally uncalled for... We`d all sell ourselves to look after our families wouldn`t we?? So if that is being a whore so be it.....

Time to stop this thread I feel:eek:

[Skaz]

Doctors dont work for free, neither do lawyers, dentist, the police or the guy sweeping the street, why the hell should pilots!!!!

We very recently had some w*nker rock up in on the apron at a International airport we turnaround in, having arranged to work for "free" , putting some freelance okes on the ground for a week and denying them their pay.....suffice to say he did not get a warm welcome from the crew he had to share a cockpit with, me, or the other pilots.

:mad:

[Avius]

Mirifly,

Well, while unwise, you or anybody can work for free if they want to. You just have then to realize, that people will not value your services if they don't have to pay for them. That is a fact, which has been proven over and over again.

I own a consulting business as a side job to aviation. In the beginning I tried to charge a rather average fee for my services and made average profit while working my butt off. Then I decided to increase my fee by 60%, taking into consideration, that I would lose some customers, while retaining those who are willing to pay for quality. To my surprise, I have lost none of them, but rather won several others, because they were looking for quality and one of the measures was the price.

Your qualification becomes worthless, if you don't charge what you are worth. Your self-esteem and ultimately your prospects are diminishing and you find yourself in a spiral you never get out of.

Pilots are qualified people but often equally stupid. Today's sub-standard conditions and pay in the flight deck are the consequence.

Jobsearch is just a perfect example for this stupidity. If he finds a job, he will lose it at some point again, and find himself in the same situation as he is today, except a few years older and no financial security.

[boofta]

Reality.
Aviation is fun, interesting, a challenge everyday and rewarding
for some.
Most jobs are never any of the above. So lots of people try to
join the fun.
It's called supply and demand. In fact my guess would be that
for every employed pilot around 200 wannabees hope to
join the fun.
Reality.
Luck is a greater factor in joining the fun than any form of
planning or management. Again, my guess would be it's 90%
luck 10% management.
Sadly, most pilots nowdays will not achieve a lifelong career.
Reality.
People are ruthless when it comes to survival.
How dare anyone criticise another for trying to stay in the game.
The game is fun, the secret is out, people will do it for nothing!

Sure, eventually if we all do it for nothing, the game will change.

Thats where the industry now stands. What happens next is
not up to unions or airline managers.

The aviation industry is becoming more competitive.
Thats simply

REALITY

[Avius]

boofta,

agree somewhat with what you are saying, however:

Aviation is exciting and we all go through the "glue-to-any-aviation-book" and "stick-around-the-airport-all-day" phases, but at the end of the day, it is our bread and butter, which we need to feed our family.

I don't agree about the challenge every day thing. Reality is, that after a few thousand flight hours one needs some other activity besides flying to keep the brain limber. Most experienced pilots I know, have their own side-business, have at least attempted to establish one, or are involved in Flight-OPS of their company, etc.

People are in deed ruthless, when it comes to survival, provided they know what they are doing. Jobsearch is ruthlessly trying extinct himself as well as others. The choice is his and he will pay the price, eventually.

[BryanC123]

Jobsearch, I'll take ya on. No worries , ahem !!!

[Ignition Override]

One unique problem here in the US must be put into context. Some of the retired military pilots are already getting a retirement paycheck from the Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army or Coast Guard (DOT) etc, and some of them don't really feel that airline pilots deserve the present salaries, especially before the 9/11 disasters, which led to fewer monthly hours and/or reduced hourly pay rates.

This can be put a bit into perspective when a person already receives some of his/her income as a result of working hard for twenty plus years on active duty.

After jumpseating about five years ago on a Fedex (widebody) A-300, the Captain told me that some of the retired military FEDEX pilots stated that they would do their jobs for a good bit less than they are being paid. He strongly resented their attitudes, and told me that "...this is my ONLY retirement!" Is it any surprise that good old Fred won't pay them the same as UPS rates or hourly/monthly guarantees/trip/duty rigs etc?

Now, this is not an attempt to generalize about retired military folks, however there are such individuals who don't quite understand the principles of a market economy, or the obvious fact (to me) that with an airline they are not management people.

[peepsmover]

Now, now mates, don't be harsh on a guy that is willing to undercut others in hopes that once he has screwed over others that he can then get his, well he will, and as I say, don't worry his type and sort are self-correcting, they will soon learn that by racing to the bottom, they stay at the bottom, even surprsingly more bitter than before, thank God I won't be there to see that pathetic sight. Race on, baby, race on!

[Ignition Override]

I can not improve on the points made by Kaptin M and others.

[mjbow2]

I personally cant stand falling into line with the ideals of others just because Im in the same group. Unions bother me! I dont like them....but I need them.

Jobsearch, I can understand your propensity to devalue us all if you were a wannabe.....your not! your qualified, just like the AME who wrote out your last medical. I bet he/she didnt bid for your business in the same pre-industrial revolution "market demand" fashion that your so intent on doing.

Many posts compare us to doctors and lawyers in the remuneration(and respect) departments......folks such as yourself make sure that we dont fit that fold in the eyes of management.

They know your worth less than the rest of us because you just told them.

[Anthony Carn]

IMHO, a great many pilot employers would only be interested in putting bums on seats, regardless of anything more than minimum acceptable ability, if costs could thereby be reduced. Safety would almost certainly suffer.

It's therefore up to pilot unions to prevent a watering down of competancy and safety, not to mention salaries, as would result from a wages free for all.