BA Saudi/Kuwait payscales

[Double Asymmetric]

Howdy all,
I have done a search but come up with nil, I am after the payscales and conditions for PC9 QFI's in both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. I understand Aussies are paid on a different scale to the Brits so if anyone has any Oz-oriented info that would be great. I have also conducted a search on Google with no success.
Can anyone give me the gouge or a website etc?

Thanks in advance.
DA

[BEagle]

Have you tried looking under 'Al Yamamah'?

Current word around the streets (as you'll have read on PPRuNe) is not to touch the place with a barge pole......

Have you considered checking whether NFTC in Canada needs any QFIs? You'll notice that 'saudipc-9' has posted a query on this on PPRuNe under 'Nftc'...

[saudipc-9]

Currently £6170 a month including oversea's allowance. You also get three paid trips home and free housing if you are married. As for not touching this place with a barge pole? Well it most certainly is not the place for everyone. You put up with alot of S%&T from the locals, but that is why you are paid alot. It is not like it was a few years ago when you never knew if today was your last. Short term pain for long term gain. I do not regret coming here, but I will be glad when I step on the flight to home for the last time. I cannot tell you much about Kuwait but I do believe the package is not quite as much. Good bunch of guys here, great social life and 9-10 weeks of holidays a year:D

[hifiman]

DA

You might like to seek out the "Interested in Saudi Arabia?" thread which was started by Capt Sand Dune back on 18 June 02.
You'll find a number of colourful accounts of life in the middle east and the pivotal part played by BWoS. :rolleyes:

Hope you find it useful!

[groper]

BWoS in Saudi pay Australians/Kiwis at an entirely different rate to those recruited through the UK. At the moment it amounts to 20% less because of exchange rates.

Be advised that the "Saudisation" program is running. This means that BWoS can replace you with a Saudi at no notice - a Saudi civilian in BWoS uniform. Likewise, the RSAF may replace you with a uniformed Saudi. I hear there is a sim instructor here who has been recently threatened with "redundancy" and will be replaced by a Saudi civvy. Anywhere else in the world this would be called discrimination.

There is also a review of the BWoS workforce underway. This may result in many "redundancies" in the very near future.

There is a very unfriendly atmosphere on the streets here towards "westerners".

Don't touch the place or BWoS is my advice.:(

[Captain Sand Dune]

The money to be made in Saudi Arabia is great - whether you're Brit, Aussie, Kiwi, Canadian or Southe African. As I have said before in so many words - be under no illusions why you're paid that sort of money. Working relations with the RSAF have improved because a couple of the more pysco personalities in charge have moved on. That could quite easily change.
There are some among us who percieve that this contract in its present form does not have much longer to run. Aircrew recruiting for the PC-9/C-172 has been paused, and there is much speculation about the security of non-aircrew positions. A BAe Systems review of expat manpower in Saudi Arabia has recently been completed. The results of this review are not yet available, however all indications are that cuts will be made - the only question is how many.
I would advise against planning on a long term tenure out here.
In my opinion the quality of life out here has changed. Recent world events have, for many reasons, caused an uneasiness among mnay expats. Others here may dis-agree, but I have noticed an increasing anti-expat sentiment among the local populace. Does anyone REALLY believe the recent bombings were solely the work of feuding expat booze lords?
If you're still keen - go for it! But keep your eyes and ears open and make hay while the sun shines.

[groper]

DA

To answer your initial query more completely, you won't find anything on the internet regarding pay scales or conditions. These will be spelled out in the letter of offer and the attached conditions of service. Both should be read very, very carefully.

Believe nothing from BWoS unless it's in writing. ;)

[saudipc-9]

The latest news is that BAe Systems have said that if the Saudi's start to charge expats income tax you are on your own.
Before they put into the conditions of service that if this was done they would provide suitable compensation. Now they want to take away the Loss of Flight Authorization (LOFA). A little while back they tried to pull a fast one and change the LOFA benefits. Typical BAe. If it is free and they don't have to do anything, then advertise it.....any chance that they will have to make good and ......woops, that promise is removed!!!
The money is good but BAe management can be worse than the locals...
Work at Al-Bilad-------Camry's and coffee provided
Work at the Base---- it's a bus and buy your own d@mn coffee

[groper]

.............and the latest toll is:

3xPC-9 BAE expat simulator instructors fired and replaced by Saudi civilians.

Don't throw away what you already have to join this lot.:mad:

[Roger_Ovair]

It wasn't all bad out there. But I can say that 'cos I'm home now. The locals can be unbelievably friendly, or unbelievably rude. The thing that always made me laugh was the lack of enthusiasm for flying from any of them. Still it was their culture...

The thing about the different pay scales for Brits and Aussies was always an ugly issue. Apparently, it was all to do with where you were recruited (BAE UK or BAE Aus) and not on your own nationality. That's why the Canadians had the same pay rates as Brits.

BAE managment in KSA made you cringe they were so amateur, and whoever gave you the advice not to believe anything until it was in writing was almost spot on. He should have said: "never believe anything BAE says.....or writes". They were famous for moving the goalposts.

My whole family enjoyed life in Saudi. The money was amazing, the housing and utilities were free. Driving into the desert or along the coast with mates at weekends for parties was great. The ability to go on holiday to the best hotels in the most amazing places was great. It won't get saudised overnight, and the flying jobs will be the last to go. Simulators first as they involve a lot less danger, application or effort.

If you have a chance, give it a go. Every day I walk into my house I thank King Fahd for paying for it...in cash. Think about that. Queen Elizabeth didn't do that and I had spent a lot longer working for her.

[Double Hush]

Concur with above, there are compensations to working out here but beware, BAE Systems are whittling away at them. Despite being the most (only?) profitable enterprise in their portfolio, BAE Systems are on a cost cutting spree. New recruits arriving after 01 Jan 03 are on a new, different (= less) pay scale to those currently contracted but don't know how much less at the moment. MT is being cut by 50%, there is no pay rise next year and a shed load of suppliers are being made 'voluntarily' redundant at v. short notice. It's still worth coming out here but check out the new pay scales first and make sure that you have a parachute in case it all goes pear shaped.

[katpad]

Roger_Ovarir and Double Hush offer much more honesty than you will get from BWoS. I also had the unforgettable experience of teaching the unteachable and working under direction of the grown-up spoilt brats that we buy our oil from but I now look at what I enjoy with the money they paid me and conclude that it was the way to go.

Whilst my experience ended happily, the pain along the way was a major problem and resulted in a lot of my friends leaving earlier than they had planned. The Company is the (politically incorrect) ****** in the woodpile out there. They have sold the Saudis their products and their workforce and they continue to allow their customer to deny to their workers their basic human rights. Almost any time you exercise your integrity and ask for Company support you will end up with a stark choice – give up or get out. For some people that is too much at any price. If you are happy being a lacky to people with zero ability and integrity (and that includes the Company management), go for it but make sure that they pay you as much as you can squeeze out of them and do not sign their contract until you have made sure that they are offering you at least as much as the person you are replacing – including any fringe benefits.

What is it worth to you to lose your freedom and live in an open prison? If your mother was dying and the Colonel refused to sign your exit visa how would you feel – it happened to me last New Year’s Eve. Think about it.

[BEagle]

Since when could mercenaries expect any 'rights'........

[NorthernSID]

B Eagle,

Since when have RAF secondees, lent by govt to govt agreement, on behalf of the RAF, Her Majesty (indirectly) and UK plc, been mercenaries.

I object strongly to your tone.

[katpad]

BEagle sounds like BWoS Company Management!

[Roger_Ovair]

Don't let BEagle get to you. He just loves stirring it up. I have to admit that it wouldn't be as much fun reading the forum without his occasional broadside! By the way, he definitely couldn't be BWoS management, because he tells it like he sees it!

:)

Best wishes to all still out there. Keep the faith..

Roger

[NorthernSID]

roger

You're right, but....

[hifiman]

BEagle

I trust that your comment regarding "mercenaries" was made with your tongue stuffed firmly in your cheek.

My dictionary states that a mercenary is primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics - something that neither the BWOS employees nor the RAF Secondees in KSA could ever be accused of. Their daily existence on the knife-edge of customer whims was worth every penny that they were paid. It was the management and the customer that lacked ethics!

And yes, you've touched a nerve!

[BEagle]

It was supposed to indicate that it seems that you are likely to be treated by BWoS as though you are little more than mecenaries. However, I'm sure that you would go into the programme with a high sense of ethics and lofty idealism....

[katpad]

BEagle, the main reason that BWoS keeps the contract is down to the ethics and professionalism of those who serve there. Neither the Company nor the spoilt brats appreciate it when those same qualities rub against the grain of an Arab who just does not want to work or learn.

To describe these people as mercenaries is to insult them. Yes, they are only there because it pays well but, apart from a very small minority, most maintain the high standards they took out there.

We all work for money - does that make us mercenaries or just plain sensible?

[cgi_firstclass]

:) Well pay is OK. But beware. Maybe ex-pat BAe medical staff to be withdrawn sometime after Jun 03. Also, draft letter doing the rounds that states no more SR5000 moving in allowance for Married Families Scheme takers after Jan 03.:D I suspect that because of our lords and masters great endeavour to lose yet even more value on shares, BAe staff will restrict or strangle our salaries. We already know that those recruited after Jan 03 will be salaried lower than those already in post.

What handshake will Phil get when he leaves in Dec??:confused:

[Roger_Ovair]

There is no doubt that aircrew go to the Magic Kingdom for the money. That makes their ethics rather mercenary. However, as we didn't fight for the RSAF (and I wouldn't have under any circumstance) we were'nt mercenaries. Hope that clears the air a bit.

As to the rest of it... :)

I can't imagine what Fat-phil's payout will be like. I couldn't believe it when I heard he had gone back from retirement to take over as Chief Executive. Some say it was for the money.. but I think there was a more liquid attraction :D

I had a hoot trying to bring some level of skill to the students out there. Some were OK and some were diabolical. It didn't stop any of us trying, even though gratitude seemed to be thin on the ground at times.

As for the Company. I eventually felt sorry for them. The AY project is / was the only money-spinner that they had out of their sorry catalogue of disasters. It raked in more money than a large 3rd world country, and they were hardly likely to upset the apple-cart. I can't imagine that things are any different now, except that BWoS need the money more and the Sauds are cutting back. Ooops!

A lot of people used to go on about how the Yank companies did things so much better. I am not so sure. A lot of their employees were on a rolling 1 month contract, and they were forever being hauled off the job and told to pack. Not my idea of fun, and they weren't really treated any better. To them the KSA business wasn't so important as they had bigger markets at home, and they could afford to be a bit harder nosed.

However, it would be a real bad thing if the medical side started to slip. When I was out there I considered that it was the only real jewel in the crown. If you went sick you were diagnosed that day, saw the consultant in the afternoon, had your operation the next morning (whether you needed it or not :D ) and all done by expat mercenary doctors from around the world. Oh well, tempus fugit.

Bottom line is I wouldn't go back, but thanks again to King Fahd for the great house and all the holidays. To all still out there: Take care.

Roger

[saudipc-9]

I don't care what you call me!! It doesn't mean squat!!
As Roger has mentioned. I will go home and I will drive my paid off car to my paid off house. I will open my paid off door and kiss my wife who will wear her paid off jewels and paid off gold. I will sit on my paid off furniture and watch my paid off TV.
On my holidays I will not go half measures and worry about my visa bill because I will be able to.......... pay it off.
I teach these clowns all that they know, but I will not teach them all I know. When I leave I will never look back except to say thanks for your money and you will reap what you sow.
Now pass me another dark tops!!:D

[cgi_firstclass]

For those of you that take an interest, whilst we current band of 'merceneries' with our paid up this and that, those that join us may well not be losing out on just pay. Rumour has it that perhaps only 1 flight ticket paid once every year. Can someone remind me why Northrop and McD Douglas pulled out. Was that not also a push for economies?

Anyway, nearly everything paid for now. Only the credit card to be paid up after every holiday. Or will World Taxation catch me first??